Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“Meaning” vs. “MEANING”

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Thank you to Aleta for taking up the opposing view of the nature of meaning in my Gotta Serve Somebody post.  I started to write a response to his comment 34 and quickly realized that any response would be OP-sized and decided to start a new OP.

Some Definitions

“disagreement is not an easy thing to reach.  Rather, we move into confusion.”  John Courtney Murray

Part of the problem in the debate between Aleta and myself is that we use the word “meaning” in at least three different senses, (1) linguistic intention, (2) ultimate purpose, and (3) culturally-adapted belief system.

In an effort to see if we can actually reach disagreement as opposed to confusion, I propose to dispense with the word “meaning” altogether and to use in its stead the following:

  1. Linguistic intention.  Instead of “this word has the following meaning” I will use “this word has the following definition.”
  1. Ultimate purpose.  Instead of “the theist believes there is an ultimate meaning in the universe and the atheist denies that there is,” I will say “the theist believes there is Ultimate Purpose/Significance in the universe and the atheist denies that there is.”
  1. Culturally adapted belief system.  Aleta says that human belief and meaning systems are human inventions that are inculcated into members of a culture.  Fair enough.  I will use the phrase “Culturally Adopted Belief System” to refer to this type of “meaning.”

Barry’s Argument

The materialist believes there is no Ultimate Purpose/Significance.  As Richard Dawkins says in the following famous quotation:

[In the universe there] is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

In my previous post I argued that the idea that our life is completely meaningless, that the universe is indifferent to our existence, that literally nothing we say, think or do has any ultimate significance, is unbearable.  No one is able to stare into the abyss without flinching.  I noted that even those that insist there is no Ultimate Purpose/Significance feel compelled to seek a kind of meaning as a substitute for Ultimate Purpose/Significance.  Dawkins again:

The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.

In the first quote Dawkins stares into the abyss, and in the second he flinches away. Why?  Because an intense longing for Ultimate Purpose/Significance is at the bottom of every human heart.  Everyone, from fundamentalist Bible thumpers to militant atheists, searches for a greater context in which to situate their lives.  For theists the explanation for this longing is easy:

You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.

Confessions, Augustine of Hippo

The honest materialist does not deny the longing.  At that same time he cannot admit that when we long for Ultimate Purpose/Significance we are longing for something that actually exists.  So how does the materialist explain a near universal longing for something that does not exist?  He explains it like he explains a lot of things (consciousness, the overwhelming appearance of design in nature, libertarian free will) — the near universal human impulse to place our lives within the context of some Ultimate Purpose/Significance is an illusion foisted on us by our genes, which in turn resulted from some evolutionary adaptation.

Aleta’s Argument

Aleta disagrees that the universe’s indifference is unbearable and that no one is able to stare into the abyss without flinching.  He does not agree that even those who insist there is no Ultimate Purpose/Significance feel compelled to seek Ultimate Purpose/Significance.  He writes:

I do believe that humans do engage, and have engaged in “make believe” about some things that we really don’t know much, if anything about: I think most metaphysical religious beliefs fall into this category.  But we have all sorts of other beliefs about how to treat our fellow man (or at least those that we include in our understanding of our community/society), about how to contribute to the well being of our society, how to spend our time in what various human activities are possible, and so on.  Many of these beliefs are cultural: the fact that many people are brought up in them as children and that most of society supports them gives those beliefs a sense of being bigger than the individual.  Human belief and meaning systems are human inventions.  They are based on a mixture of empirical knowledge (confirmed beliefs) and agreements within the culture to see the world a certain way (affirmed beliefs). Calling then “make believe” devalues both them and the human beings for whom they are important.

Barry’s Response

Just like Dawkins Aleta wants to have it both ways.  Consider again Dawkins’ first comment, which I will call the “Materialist Prime Directive.”

[In the universe there] is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Now consider again Dawkins’ second statement:

The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.

Dawkin’s second statement is radically irreconcilable with the Materialist Prime Directive, because if the Materialist Prime Directive is true, the words “meaningful,” “full,” and “wonderful” in the second statement are empty. Similarly, Aleta affirms the Materialist Prime Directive.*  Then he says that “we have all sorts of other beliefs about how to treat our fellow man . . .”  But if the Materialist Prime Directive is true, those beliefs about how to treat our fellow man are empty, mere evolutionary adaptations foisted upon us by our genes.  Aleta chides me for calling them “make believe,” but they are indeed make believe in a very real sense of that phrase.  If the Materialist Prime Directive is true, those beliefs are empty and arbitrary impulses that evolution “makes” us “believe.”

I argue that the human longing for “meaning” (i.e., Ultimate Purpose/Significance) is a very real phenomenon, and that longing is directed at something real.  Aleta agrees there is a longing, but he dismisses that longing as a mere cultural adaptation.  Here’s the problem with that.  Once one realizes that “meaning” in Aleta’s sense of the word is empty and arbitrary, a mere evolutionary adaptation foisted upon us by our genes, the game is up.  Because it is a truism that a meaning (cultural adaptation) that is meaningless (arbitrary/random) can have no meaning (ultimate significance).

___________

*Though he quibbles with whether he is actually a materialist.  I think he prefers to consider himself an agnostic who accepts materialism provisionally.  He can explain what he believes if I a wrong.

 

 

Comments
Hi William. I'm not sure whether you are going to continue our discussion or not, but I'm going to add to it by switching the emphasis - I'd like to talk about what you mean by objective standards, or more specifically, how you know that they exist and what they are. I use the phrase "objective standards" here to refer the general idea of "meaning, purpose, morals and values which exist independently of human beings, are absolutely or ultimately true, and are derived from some ultimate source, which we can take to be God in some form. You can amend that description or suggest an alternative phrase if you wish. Let's talk first about objective knowledge about the physical world. I take the word objective to imply two things here: 1. It is about what we commonly consider part of the physical world, the experience of which is available to our senses in some form, and 2. Is such that any human being, if given access to the proper experiences, would agree that the knowledge is valid. I'd like to take an example that is neither too simple (the sky is blue) not too esoteric (helium has two electrons), so I'll take as example the circulation system of the blood in the human body: from the heart through the arteries to the capillaries (invisible to the naked eye), and back to the heart via the veins. I think it is uncontroversial to consider this objective knowledge. However, it is also not obvious knowledge - it took quite a bit of investigation before William Harvey correctly described the main system in the 1600's, and it took the invention of the microscope to finally add the capillaries to our understanding. So, even though none of us can easily go and look at the circulation of the heart, any human being could become acquainted with the experiences others have had, accept their experiences, get some direct experience if they wish (such as taking a biology class that included a cadaver lab), and otherwise become convinced the mainstream description of the circulation of blood is correct. This is an example of objective knowledge of the physical world. Now explain to me objective knowledge of morals. To the extent it is analogous to objective knowledge of the physical world, what experiences can we have to acquaint ourselves with the existence of these objective morals, and more importantly, what common experiences are there such that any human being, properly acquainted with the experiences, would accept them as objectively true. And, if objective morals are in some way not analogous to objective knowledge about the physical world, explain the differences and describe what is the case about objective morals. It would be useful to provide an example. However, please don't continue to use torturing babies. I have a two year old granddaughter and a new grandchild on the way and it pains me deeply to think about that example. I picked a middle-of-the-road example for the physical world, and I would hope you would also. Are you willing to give this a try? Others are invited to participate if they are interested in the same type of thoughtful and civil discussion that William and I have been having.Aleta
November 13, 2014
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There is no final arbiter of what is right and wrong for any individual. Isn't that what it means to say that there is no objective morality? When I, as a "subjectivist" say that something is "wrong" I think I mean that the thing is prohibited or at least discouraged under the rules of the society that I and the individual are a part of and I agree with those rules in that particular case. Torturing children is prohibited by the rules of my society and I agree with that rule, so I'd say it's wrong. Driving 85 mph on an empty interstate highway on a bright dry day is prohibited by the rules of my society, but I don't think I'd say it's wrong.congregate
November 13, 2014
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Hi William. Let's start at the end and work backwards. Your last statement was
Or is it that answering the question yes or no will leave your worldview in a bad spot either way?
I am not at all concerned about leaving "my worldview appearing in a bad spot" in your eyes. I don't believe there are any objective meanings, purposes, morals, values, etc. derived from any outside metaphysical source such as God (it would be nice to have a shorthand way of saying that), so my worldview is already in an irrevocable bad spot in your eyes, and no explanation I make about meanings, purposes, etc. that I make will change that. So being in or out of a bad spot is just not relevant to this discussion. You asked,
Is “what an individual believes” ultimately the final arbiter of what is right and wrong for that individual?
I have spent some time trying to flesh out my answer to this question, but it seems like a truism to say that yes, what a person believes is right or wrong is what a person believes is right or wrong." A person will have assimilated and integrated input from many different sources in building those beliefs, but how can someone act upon anything other than their beliefs? There are social and legal parameters about what is right or wrong socially and legally, and consequences of various sorts for not agreeing with those (I have said all this before), but ultimately a person has the final responsibility to determine what is right or wrong for them, and can choose to disagree with the social and legal world around them. There is no"final arbiter" of what is right or wrong, in the sense of being an objective standard, so all a person can do is make the best determination for themself both in terms of general principles and individual situations. There is no other choice than to have to choose. You write,
I’m using the term “subjectiviism” as a shorthand way of expressing the view that meaning, value, and morals are subjective in nature, and do not refer to objectively existent commodities.
OK, that's clear. If "subjective" merely means not believing in any "objectively existent commodities," than that word is a short way of saying what I believe. If the word carries other connotations, then those would have to be addressed individually. You write,
So, what does the phrase “is wrong” actually mean to a subjectivist? The only thing I can come up with is that you are using sloppy language to say “that action is something I prefer didn’t happen”.
You seem to think that only people who believe in some objective source of standards have the right to talk about right and wrong, but that is not true, and really circularly assumes that you are correct that such standards exist, which I don't believe. My thoughts about right and wrong, and to varying degrees all peoples, are not merely "a preference". To lump together everything a person believes, from what kind of ice cream they like to what kind of deepest, most heartfelt basic principles they have about how to live into one big category called "preferences" really misunderstands, or misrepresents, the reality and complexity of human beings. I have the right to call things right and wrong, and so do you. But you don't have a superior or exclusive right to use those terms just because you believe your sense of right and wrong comes from some outside "objective" source. Some concluding comments: First, this has been a useful discussion to me because it's good to explore and articulate one's position. I appreciate your thoughtfulness and civility. Here are some ways that I am understanding the situation: To you, everything is knowledge in the sense that one needs to know about something that exists outside of oneself. We all possess knowledge about physical things that exist - we have objective knowledge of the physical world. You believe that one can also possess knowledge about metaphysical things such as meaning, purpose, etc. in a way that is somehow analogous to objective knowledge about the physical world: both that meaning, purpose, etc. exist independently of human beings and that we have access to those meanings (that is, both ontologically and epistemologically there are objective standards.) I don't believe in those objective standards. Therefore, for me, there is both knowledge and choice. There is a vast amount of objective knowledge we can obtain about the physical world, including experiences within ourself that are not available to others. However, there are things concerning various kinds of judgments (such as about meaning, purpose, etc.) that, although we can take into account objective data, ultimately boil down to us having to choose our position. Many years ago I wrote a paper for an anthropology class on comparative religion and worldviews that made a distinction that has stayed with me all these years. There are two kinds of beliefs, those that we confirm and those that we affirm. That is the distinction I'm making here: human beings can assemble and evaluate lots of objective knowledge, but at some point, after all the facts are assembled, on a regularly basis we have to choose what "big picture" meanings, purposes, values, and morals we wish to act on. Our judgements about right and wrong are affirmations - statements we make, in words and action, about who we have chosen to be. It may be disconcerting, and lead to some wishful thinking, to know that there isn't some externally available answer as to how we should believe and act, but there isn't. As I said earlier, we have no choice but to choose.Aleta
November 13, 2014
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I haven’t given you answers that satisfy you because my answers don’t refer to any ultimate metaphysical source of meaning, but as far I I can tell I’ve been answering your question.
I'm not asking you to refer to any such source. I'm asking you to clarity your position wrt subjective meaning and what it means, under that premise, when you make certain statements or utilize terms in certain ways. You say X, but I don't know what X would mean under subjectivism because the only way I know how to interpret X is if it X is referring to or utilizing a commodity that is known, expected, or assumed to be objective in nature. So when you say "X is wrong", and "is" doesn't require an objective, arbitrating source, what does "is" mean? You cannot prove it "is" wrong; you cannot demonstrate it "is" wrong; you cannot even logically argue it "is" wrong. So, what does "is" mean here? You cannot mean "is" in the sense that something "is" made of steel or that 5 "is" the right answer to "what is 2+3". You can be using "is" like "Red is my favorite color", but how can you say "red is the wrong favorite color for others"? Compare to "it is wrong for others to gratuitously torture children". See what I mean? I don't see how a subjectivist can say that it is wrong for others to torture children without it logically requiring an objective means to make such an evaluation. You can say that according to humanist (or some other set of) principles, which are written down and objectively exist as written principles, it is wrong for others to torture children, but then we run into a problem; according to you, individuals are free to disregard/dismiss such moral rules if they disagree with them, meaning such rules are not objectively binding arbiters of right and wrong in the first place. They would only be rules that you have individually adopted and can individually dismiss. So we are back to: what do you mean when you say that the behavior of others "is" wrong? That's why I ask by what standard or principle that doesn't reduce to "because I say so" or "because I feel like it"? So, what does the phrase "is wrong" actually mean to a subjectivist? The only thing I can come up with is that you are using sloppy language to say "that action is something I prefer didn't happen". That is what I'm trying to understand. Subjectivists use terms and phrasings that normally imply/invoke objective references, but claim they are valid under a subjective frameset. I'm looking for someone to explain how those phrases/terms are meant. Saying "they are the same only subjective" doesn't explain anything, it just draws a semantic equivalence between concepts that have not been shown conceptually applicable under subjectivism. IOW, I and others see your use of such terms as logical fallacies - stealing a concept your premises do not entail.
Also, I don’t understand what you mean by “under subjectivism”, or at least I don’t want to be held responsible for holding to some “ism” – I’m just explaining my own thoughts.
I'm using the term "subjectiviism" as a shorthand way of expressing the view that meaning, value, and morals are subjective in nature, and do not refer to objectively existent commodities.
You make it sound like I’m advocating that people’s beliefs are whimsical,
I'm not making it sound that way. For some reason you're making an incorrect inference. I'm not claiming such beliefs are whimsical; my argument is solely about the logic of such views. Is "what an individual believes" ultimately the final arbiter of what is right and wrong for that individual? I don't see how it is difficult to simply answer yes or no to that question. Is it loaded in some way, or does it make an erroneous assumption about something? Is it a "have you stopped beating your wife" question? If so, how so? Why can you not answer yes or no to it? Or is it that answering the question yes or no will leave your worldview in a bad spot either way?William J Murray
November 13, 2014
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I'm not sure why my answers are not answers to "your actual questions." I haven't given you answers that satisfy you because my answers don't refer to any ultimate metaphysical source of meaning, but as far I I can tell I've been answering your question. Also, I don't understand what you mean by "under subjectivism", or at least I don't want to be held responsible for holding to some "ism" - I'm just explaining my own thoughts. (More below.) And although I appreciate your efforts to paraphrase my position - that is a good technique for constructive dialog. I'm not going to sign off on every phrase you use as being how I would say things, but a lot of what you say is approximately my position. However, I want to comment on the last paragraph:
While there may be laws or social mores that conflict with the individual’s view, under subjectivism what is right for the individual is not determined by such external laws and mores. Even though such views might be enforced, one way or another, on the individual, capacity to enforce doesn’t change the fact that what the individual considers right for them is right for them.
I think that the vast majority of people truly integrate the vast majority of social mores, some of which are codified in laws, into their own belief and value system. It's not just that those are "enforced" on the individual - the individual truly assimilates them so there is a genuine correspondence of agreement between the person and society. There are times, however, when a person may reach the conclusion that society is wrong, and at such times the person may have to think about whether acting against the mores of society is worth whatever consequences might entail. In cases of social mores, often society is diverse enough that one might offend some, but not all. However, in the extreme case, rare but perhaps significant, that someone choose to disobey laws because they think the laws are wrong, one has to be prepared for those consequences. So I don't think your paragraph captures the true situation. But ultimately, at some point everyone individual does make choices about what they believe and how they are going to act. I'm also puzzled my your emphasis on "subjective" and "subjectivism." You make it sound like I'm advocating that people's beliefs are whimsical, without any reference to reality, which would be false. People take all sorts of objective facts into account in building their beliefs. In my case, and relevant to this discussion, I know a lot about different religions and belief systems, both modern and primitive, and a lot about what the fields of sociology and psychology have to say about people. I've read a lot of great literature and philosophy where other human beings, ones known for the depth of their thought and their skill of expression, have offered their thoughts on these great issues. My beliefs have not arisen in a vacuum - they've been influenced by a great deal of objective knowledge about the world and about what other people think. As I am pointed out a number of times, if by "subjective" you mean "not incorporating or related to any metaphysical source of objective truth", then yes, everything is subjective because that objective truth does not exist. However, if you mean something else, or at least something additional by "subjective" then perhaps you should explain.Aleta
November 13, 2014
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Aleta, I understand you are providing responses, but from my end of the conversation they are not answers to my actual questions. What I asked in #76 is if what is right for an individual is determined by an individuals subjective views. It appears that in 77 you are saying yes - however an individual subjectively ends up with their concept of "right", that is what is "right" for that person. What right "is", in the final analysis, is whatever the individual believes it is. IOW, the final arbiter of what is right for anyone is what they subjectively believe is right for them, because there is no external, objective arbiter of "right and wrong" beyond the subjective views of the individual. While there may be laws or social mores that conflict with the individual's view, under subjectivism what is right for the individual is not determined by such external laws and mores. Even though such views might be enforced, one way or another, on the individual, capacity to enforce doesn't change the fact that what the individual considers right for them is right for them. Correct?William J Murray
November 13, 2014
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to JDH: all that you mention is not obvious, to various degrees. But even if one accepts the four statements you made, it is very much not obvious that the God of the Bible exists, or even that the creator of the four properties you mention has any interest, ethical or otherwise, in the actions of human beings.Aleta
November 12, 2014
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William, you keep asking the same questions, and I've answered them. A very brief summary of the situation is: 1. Each person builds a system of meaning, purpose, ethics, values, etc. from a complex interplay of their basic common core human nature; their individual innate nature; a set of concentric cultural influences starting with the family and moving outwards, for some, to an identification with all of mankind; their education, their particular life experiences; their internal reflection on all of the above, etc. All of this adds up to a persons views and beliefs about meaning, purpose, ethics, and values. 2. There are no objective meanings et al that derive some outside source such as God. Therefore, the process described in 1) above is the way all human beings derive their meanings et al. There ain't no other way - this applies to you as much as anyone.Aleta
November 12, 2014
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Aleta, Under subjectivism, is what is right or wrong for each individual determined solely by their own subjective views, preferences and beliefs?William J Murray
November 12, 2014
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Aleta@74 said,
For what it’s worth, if someone believes something exists, the burden of proof is on that person, not the person who doesn’t believe.
No. If I said I don't believe the sun exists ( even though its presence dominates the sky ) the burden of proof would be on me. Basically you can't make any hard and fast rule about who the "burden of proof" actually lies with. But it should be on the one that goes against the obvious inference of observation. For example, the presence of the sun is obvious. The person who believes the "sun does not really exist" would probably have the burden of proof in this case. Its very obvious to all that we have free will (that's why people who do not believe in free will call it an illusion ). It's obvious that biological forms and all there intricacies seem to be the result of design ( as says Richard Dawkins -before proposing evolution as the blind watchmaker ). It's very obvious that the constants have been fine-tuned for life ( so says Brian Greene before claiming the multiverse is responsible ). it's very obvious that you can't create something from nothing without a creator. ( But cosmologists just posit that at some point the Big Bang just happened ). Each one of these observables lead to the obvious conclusion that there is a God. I would say the burden of proof is obviously on those who would observe all of the evidence and still posit "NOT GOD". The Bible puts it the most clearly. "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."JDH
November 12, 2014
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I am not absolute certain about any metaphysical issues: I have made that clear in previous posts. But my best judgment about the matter, based on all my experience and education, is that there are no objective standards derived from and related to some external source, such as a God. For what it's worth, if someone believes something exists, the burden of proof is on that person, not the person who doesn't believe. I'm very familiar with the claims made by Christian apologists about how somehow Christianity has a validity that other religions don't have, and they are very much not compelling.Aleta
November 12, 2014
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Aleta @ 72:
My rejoinder is this: there are no objective standards.
You seem to be absolutely certain about this assertion. On what do you base your absolute certainty?Barry Arrington
November 12, 2014
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Standards are derived from multiple sources, so yes, sometimes people reject the standards of society and choose to follow their individual notion of what is right. You boil my position "down to one single principle: 'because I say so'". You say that this is all "subjectivists" can fall back on, as opposed to "objectivists". My rejoinder is this: there are no objective standards. As I have said before, your beliefs are created in exactly the same way as mine, and are as "subjective" as mine. Just believing that there are objective standards does not make it so, and does not give your notions about standards a firmer foundation than mine. You may find it difficult to consider that human standards are tentative human conclusions which each individual has to evaluate and choose to adopt, or not, but believing that there are objective standards that get us out of that responsibility is an escape based on wishful thinking about things that do not exist, not a solution.Aleta
November 12, 2014
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Aleta, I have not "rejected" that "whole idea", as you present it, about such standards. Only a moron thinks that there is no such thing as social standards or other standards that people find to be meaningful that are not presumed to be connected to an objective source. My argument isn't that I reject that such standards are often employed by people. My argument isn't that such people are not at least as "good" as those who believe in an objective source of meaning and moral values. My argument (which I have not yet fully made here) is that any worldview that rests on the premises of subjective standards & values, or even one that rests on the "common human nature" foundation, necessarily, logically boils down to one single principle: "because I say so". A brief outline of the argument: If one points at common human nature, common human nature includes both the good and the bad. Since picking one doesn't depend on any objective good or bad, it's just a case of "because I say so" - whichever one you happen to pick or find affinity with. If one makes the case that society picks and makes a standard, the problem is, what do you do if you disagree with the social standard? Do you change your personal views, disobey society, or try to change society? The problem is that if society sets the standard, you must change your views to fit that standard; otherwise, if you disobey or try to change society, you are asserting your "because I say so" principle as being above the social standard. This works all the way up the ladder to even globally-agreed standards (if there are any). If it was a globally agreed standard that women be treated as property, would that then be an acceptable standard for you if you felt otherwise? Or if the standard was to ostracize & discourage homosexuality, would that be acceptable to you? Or would you consider your personal standard superior? Which is why I ask, wrong by what standard? You appeal to a series or set of subjective-standard external sources to support your view, but the fact is that if you disagreed with standards derived from those sources strongly enough, you'd simply disobey them or work to change them. This puts "personal preference" at the driver's seat as the ultimate standard for subjectivists. Your reference to various outsides sources becomes diversionary (although not purposefully so), because if you disagreed with any of those references strongly enough, you would not feel compelled to adjust your own views to be in line with those sources. Problematically, I doubt you'd agree that "because I say so" or "because I feel like it" are valid moral principles - indeed, you'd probably consider them the antithesis of a moral principle. Yet, logically, that is all that subjectivists are left with. You point to external references, like society or "human nature" and call such references "standards", but how is a standard anything of the sort when one can abandon the standard whenever they disagree with it? And that's where my question about the term "wrong" means comes in; when the actual standard is "because I feel like it" or "because I say so", if someone feels like gratuitously torturing children, in what meaningful sense can that act be considerd "wrong"? Under subjectivism, logically, all you can say is that you personally disagree with the act. It's not "wrong" by any meaningful standard other than the only one which is actually, ultimately binding on you: your own personal views and preferences. IOW, "wrong" cannot mean to you, a subjectivist, what it means to objectivists. When an objectivist says an act is wrong, he/she means it in the sense of "you gave me the wrong file" or "your prediction about the score was wrong"; the wrongness refers to something at least presumed to be an objective commodity. Logically speaking, you are using the term "wrong" to mean "I don't agree with that person's personal choice.", like saying "they are wrong when they enjoy chocolate ice cream" or "they are wrong to prefer country music". You're calling something "wrong" when you have no worldview basis for making such a judgement. If it's all subjective, then nobody is "wrong"; there are only people that behave in a way you personally approve of, and those who do not. If you and others here are not up to giving us insight from from the subjectivist perspective, I hardly think you have the footing for chiding Mr. Arrington on what you consider to be bad assumptions.William J Murray
November 12, 2014
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I've already answered that question. You reject the whole idea that meaningful standards have been/are developed by human beings consonant with human nature for the needs of people individually and society as a whole, and you reject any standards that don't have, in your opinion, a connection with some objective source, which I don't believe exists. So there really is nothing more for us to discuss, I think.Aleta
November 12, 2014
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Aleta, Unfair according to what? Unjust according to what? Immoral or unethical according to what? Please explain.William J Murray
November 12, 2014
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I'm not here for any length of time, but that's a silly question: we all know what wrong means. Here are some definitions from the web:
1 a : an injurious, unfair, or unjust act : action or conduct inflicting harm without due provocation or just cause 2 : something immoral, or unethical; especially : principles, practices, or conduct contrary to justice, goodness, equity, or law
You don't need to believe in God to know what wrong means.Aleta
November 12, 2014
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If Aleta is actually gone, perhaps someone else will take up his banner and attempt to answer something for me. Aleta said:
Of course I am repulsed by the idea of torturing a child, (and somewhat repulsed by your fixation on using that example), and I believe it would be terribly wrong, but I don’t need to believe in God or objective moral standards to believe that.
What does Aleta mean by the term "wrong"?William J Murray
November 12, 2014
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Hi William. Although I need to move away from this discussion and return to my regularly scheduled life, I should briefly reply since you took the time to write a lengthy and thoughtful post. First, when I say "lasting peace", I mean lasting while I live. You ask,
Are you telling me sincerely that you don’t have at least some longing for an escape from existential obliteration and a continued, satisfying, happy experience with loved ones – or adventure, or some other wonderful experience?
I have no such longing, and absolutely no belief that is a possibility. If I contain some non-material aspect, which is a possibility, then I'm inclined towards the Buddhist view, in a metaphor from Alan Watts, that what happens to the soul is like throwing a drop of water back into the sea - all individuality is lost and that non-materiality is absorbed into whatever "cosmic ocean" might exist. But the fact that my time to live is limited, and then will be over, does not bother me - all things are transitory, and one of the things one should do in this life to gain peace is to accept that and be able to let go of things, including life, when their time has run it's course. Second, you and others have this notion that if there is no objective standard then there are no standards at all. I have addressed that a bit in several posts, and it would take a book on human nature to flesh it out, but that's just wrong. Of course I am repulsed by the idea of torturing a child, (and somewhat repulsed by your fixation on using that example), and I believe it would be terribly wrong, but I don't need to believe in God or objective moral standards to believe that. You write,
People do not study and argue/debate in this way about that which they assume is a subjective, personal preference. People (well, rational people) do not condemn others or interfere in their actions over what they consider subjective, personal preference.... If such things are truly subjective, what are you hoping to accomplish in such study/debate?
Everyone's beliefs, including yours, are "subjective, personal preferences". I engage in discussion because we can influence each other, and we learn and broaden our perspective by sharing our thoughts. I don't care whether you like vanilla ice cream or not, but I do care if you support public education or not, to take one example, so at appropriate times I will make the case for public education in the hopes I can influence someone. Skipping over more stuff, you conclude with saying again exactly the point I disagree with:
Under meaning/value subjectivism, you have no logical argument available to you; all you can do here is assert your particular personal preferences as “goods”. It is an empty argument that has no means of evaluating in any significant sense. To embrace meaning/value subjectivism is to abandon logical argument and embrace empty, emotional rhetoric.
Your idea that somehow there is some logical path to objective standards, and that appealing to the full range of human nature is embracing "empty, emotional rhetoric" is wrong - period. It is also, to me, a sad thing. Your beliefs in objective standards and God and whatever else you believe in are just as subjective as anyone else's - the fact that you believe in these objective standards does not make it so. There is no way anyone's beliefs can be anything but subjective in the sense that they are what we, the subject, have created. However, the creation of beliefs takes place through a process that also takes evidence, experience, and logic into account - subjective is not the same as whimsical. That's it for me - regular life resumes....Aleta
November 11, 2014
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Aleta said:
I acknowledge that it common for many people, and I will include myself as one, have a strong desire to search for truth or for a lasting, deep peace and happiness. However, it is not true for me that I long for “for something more meaningful, deeper, or true beyond the merely subjective and transitory.”
There's a bit of contradiction here; your desire a lasting, deep peace and happiness is at least somewhat incompatible with being accepting of the transitory nature of at least Earthly, physical experience. On this, you later say:
Whatever truth and peace I find, to whatever extent I do, are in fact subjective and transitory. They are certainly transitory because they’ll be over when I’m dead.
Even if it is a fact that they are transitory, that doesn't mean one doesn't long for non-transitory peace and happiness. But let's be fair: it's not certain your experiences will be over when you are dead. You just believe this to be the case. If you could continue to exist and experience deep peace and happiness (or any number of things) even after you die, can you say that you wouldn't want that? Aren't many people sad when a loved one dies, or when their own death approaches, because some part of them (even devout believers in an afterlife) is afraid and sad that it will be the end of their experience? Are you telling me sincerely that you don't have at least some longing for an escape from existential obliteration and a continued, satisfying, happy experience with loved ones - or adventure, or some other wonderful experience?
I would like to find what truth and peace while I can, but I don’t have any belief that that truth, or the source of that peace, is “ultimate”. All we can do is find some truth and peace within the limits of our experience and abilities. I’m not looking for any ultimate, final answers, because I don’t think there are any.
I'm not sure what you mean by "some" truth. You surely don't mean "some" truth as in a small piece of some universal objective truth wrt "meaning". All you can mean here is that you figure out something that is true for you and may not be true for others, right? As far as the term "ultimate" truth or meaning, I think it's a little distracting. I prefer to use the term "objectively valid" or existentially true for everyone. Are you okay with, say, someone gratuitously torturing a child, as long as it doesn't interfere with your life? If it is subjectively true for them that they find meaning and value in such activity, is it okay with you? I would suggest the answer is no. If you could snap your fingers and end child torture/hunger around the world various warlords or foreign governments agreed with you or not, would you do so? I suggest your answer would be "yes". If you had the power to stop war on the far side of the globe by merely wishing it to end and save thousands from suffering because of it, would you do so? The reason most people would find these questions rhetorical is because they do not consider - even for a second - that their views on these matters represent subjective, personal feelings, or even cultural norms, but rather existential, objectively valid truths that the individual not only has the right to bring to reality if possible, but which represent an obligation to do what one can to alleviate the suffering of the innocent. If you could snap your fingers and make chocolate everyone's favorite flavor of ice cream, or make everyone agree to your favorite music as being the best, would you do so? Of course not - because you consider such unwarranted coercion of the personal proclivities and views of others an egregious wrong. This why I have said that the materialist cannot live as if the serious meaning and values they have are actually subjective, transitory commodities unless they are sociopaths. If we see someone harming a child, we do not stop and ask them their subjective values and meaning in life. We attempt to stop them, period, or else we feel pain, regret and guilt. We do not consider it a transitory, subjective thing; we are willing and feel obligated to act on these meaning of life values and considerations. Quantifying them as "subjective" is IMO a purely intellectual enterprise that completely ignores our real-world experience. That someone else or another cultures feels it is a good thing to mutilate the genitalia of little girls doesn't give us any pause in our obligation to put it to and end if we can. We don't shrug our shoulders and say, "well, it's a different culture". WJM said:
“If one actually believes it is all subjective and in the end of things doesn’t ultimately matter, what’s the point of arguing about it or really even thinking about it much?”
Aleta said:
That makes no sense: do you mean I shouldn’t take delight in my darling two year old granddaughter, or love my wife, or devote years to teaching high school kids, because my life will come to a end some day. This is my one-and-only opportunity to be alive: the fact that my life is transitory is all the more reason to embrace it while I can.
What you have written in response to my quote appears to be a non-sequitur. I didn't say anything about enjoying such things as life has to offer; I asked what is the point in thinking much about meaning/values/existential truths (even if it is an existential truth that there are no other existential truths wrt meaning), much less debating/arguing about it? Are you trying to convince others of your subjective views? Are you trying to convince others that it is an existential truth that there are no such existential truths with regard to meaning and value? If such things are truly subjective, what are you hoping to accomplish in such study/debate? It's as if you are subjecting yourself to arguing with others who believe your favorite flavor of ice cream should be vanilla, when you know such proclivities are a matter of subjective, personal taste. Why bother with such an argument at all? Does it bother you that their favorite flavor of meaning-to-life is one of the the "objectively true" family of flavors? It's like you're asserting to someone who prefers an "objectively true" flavor that "objective true" flavors aren't real. It makes no sense to engage in such an argument. People do not study and argue/debate in this way about that which they assume is a subjective, personal preference. People (well, rational people) do not condemn others or interfere in their actions over what they consider subjective, personal preference.
And “subjective” is not a dirty word. As I said in post 28 on the Big Questions thread, the fact that I am the only person who can build and experience my meaning of life is not the same as saying it doesn’t matter what I choose. If you want, you can go read that so I don’t repeat myself here.
In the other thread, you said:
It is extremely erroneous black-and-white thinking to believe that if one doesn’t believe in some external, ultimate source of meaning by which to structure one’s behavior one can choose to be any way one wants to be without any limit whatsoever. This is nonsense: among other things, it is contradicted by the fact the only an extremely small number of people exhibit pathological, psychopathic behavior, for which they are soundly condemned, and millions of people who don’t believe in God lead lives that are indistinguishable from their theistic neighbors.
In the first place, I'm sure Mr. Arrington doesn't believe that anyone, short of psychopaths and sociopaths, actually act as if there is no objective meaning and values to life. He believes that such meaning and values are written into the hearts of all people of whatever religion or non-religion. There is a difference between professing to believe X, and actually acting as if X is true. People can profess and intellectualize all sorts of beliefs, but they often do not actually act as if those beliefs represent reality. I think that the case Mr. Arrington is making is that if such universal values/meaning actually did not exist and actually did not influence most people's capacity to act/believe whatever they wished, in theory one could act/believe/become whatever they wanted behavior-wise. In such a case, nothing is preventing it except one's own personal preferences and the cultural influences around them. One can certainly overcome their preferential habits and cultural programming in order to take advantage of a less restricted personal behavioral policy. Also, the subjective meaning view offers no obligation to go against social norms or put oneself at risk defying cultural preferences. That a society prefers slavery and subjugation of woman is equitable to that society preferring a certain kind of food or music. Is there a compelling reason to challenge the musical preferences of a country and put your life at risk in so doing? If not, why risk your life attempting to change society in the matters of how women are treated and slavery? If it's just a matter of personal preference, why not go along with the Nazis? Why risk everything to maintain a personal preference or subjective belief?
We are constrained by human nature: virtually all humans want to love and be loved, want to exercise their talents and take delight in doing so, want to contribute to those around them, and so on. Despite the large cultural differences that exist in people, there is a solid common core of values inherent in us as a species. These qualities are present in children from birth, and arise from their biological nature, not from any philosophical considerations of theism or anything else.
You've selectively left out a few aspects of human nature which have also manifested in great quantities throughout history, such as being self-serving (greed, lying, using others, etc.); a propensity towards domination/violence (as the history of the world attests), and a hostile attitude towards the "other" (other groups/cultures/beliefs). Mr. Arrington's case is that if there is no "ultimate" means by which to judge which aspects of human nature one should employ/cultivate in the first place, and which ones one should avoid, there is no objectively valid reason to pick love over instilling fear in others or to choose contributing over taking whatever one can if one so prefers. The fact that you picked "good" traits to focus on instead of "bad" traits is further demonstration that you do not act or argue as if such values truly are subjective in nature. Mr. Arrington is not insisting that people will act badly if there is no such metaphysical influence/restraint; he is pointing out that there is no substantive reason not to and no reason to argue against those that choose to other than the fact that you personally prefer otherwise - which is not and cannot be an argument, it's just a statement of personal choice. In a scenario where one realizes, believes and acts as if there are no objectively true meaning or values, every appeal to any "positive" or "good" human values is nothing more than an assertion of personal preference and a rhetorical appeal to emotion. There cannot be any logic involved when there is no objective basis by which to arbit which meaning/values are good or bad, right or wrong. You end by saying:
So for those of you who think that materialists can be, and might as well be, nihilists for which anything is OK, you are just flat out wrong. To deny that God exists is not to deny the reality of the positive qualities that are central to our human nature.
The problem is that you have no objective means by which to assess those qualities as "positive" in the first place; they are just qualities of human nature, the same as a propensity towards violence, subjugation of the weak, self-serving hedonism, etc. You claiming that instilling love is a positive quality and instilling fear a negative one is, under subjective meaning/values, no different than somone who claims hate is positive and kindness a negative. Under meaning/value subjectivism, you have no logical argument available to you; all you can do here is assert your particular personal preferences as "goods". It is an empty argument that has no means of evaluating in any significant sense. To embrace meaning/value subjectivism is to abandon logical argument and embrace empty, emotional rhetoric. Yet here you are, explicitly implying that certain human traits are "positive", and that others are negative, as if there is some means by which to objectively assess such things.William J Murray
November 11, 2014
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Jennifer Fulwiler: Scientific Atheism to Christ - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw8uUOPoi2M What caused Jennifer Fulwiler to question her atheism to begin with? It was the birth of her first child. She says that when she looked at her child, the only way her atheist mind could explain the love that she had for him was to assume it was the result of nothing more than chemical reactions in her brain. However, in the video I linked above, she says:
"And I looked down at him, and I realized that’s not true."
========== The Heretic -Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? Andrew Ferguson – March 25, 2013 Excerpt: A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3bornagain77
November 11, 2014
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keiths @ 59:: There's a reason I used the past tense of "characterize", keith. I would no longer characterize my longing as the search for truth - as your quote from TSZ correctly indicates. For most of my life, however, my search was for truth, as I have expressed in more detail on many threads at TSZ, until I realized truth was not what I was really wanted.William J Murray
November 11, 2014
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Aleta said,
do you mean I shouldn’t take delight in my darling two year old granddaughter, or love my wife, or devote years to teaching high school kids, because my life will come to a end some day. This is my one-and-only opportunity to be alive: the fact that my life is transitory is all the more reason to embrace it while I can.
No, I think you should do all those, but stop irrationally believing that your darling two year-old granddaughter is the result of many thousand improbable and unguided occurrences . Taking into account the fact that the universe had a beginning, that it is incredibly fine-tuned for life, that consciousness is easily observed but CANNOT be explained, that some form of limited free will is undeniably observed, and that, as it says in the Bible, your darling granddaughter is "fearfully and wonderfully made", WHY oh WHY do you insist that it is your rational side which chooses NOT to believe in God. It is my opinion, that you have an emotional reason to reject a creator. It is an a priori position you take and hold in spite of the evidence, not because of it. When intelligent men, claiming to be "scientific" have to propose billions of unseen, undetectable universes in order to justify the miracle of life they see in this one, you know as well as I know, that they are not making a rational judgment. They have just a priori decided that they can not allow anything to be evidence for God, lest they let a divine foot in the door. Please choose not only to celebrate your darling granddaughter, but also get to know the God that made her. It makes life that much better.JDH
November 11, 2014
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to WJM: OK, I'll take back saying it was flippant, and I'll respond to this serious reply. I acknowledge that it common for many people, and I will include myself as one, have a strong desire to search for truth or for a lasting, deep peace and happiness. However, it is not true for me that I long for "for something more meaningful, deeper, or true beyond the merely subjective and transitory." I would like to find what truth and peace while I can, but I don't have any belief that that truth, or the source of that peace, is "ultimate". All we can do is find some truth and peace within the limits of our experience and abilities. I'm not looking for any ultimate, final answers, because I don't think there are any. Whatever truth and peace I find, to whatever extent I do, are in fact subjective and transitory. They are certainly transitory because they'll be over when I'm dead. But you write, "If one actually believes it is all subjective and in the end of things doesn’t ultimately matter, what’s the point of arguing about it or really even thinking about it much?" That makes no sense: do you mean I shouldn't take delight in my darling two year old granddaughter, or love my wife, or devote years to teaching high school kids, because my life will come to a end some day. This is my one-and-only opportunity to be alive: the fact that my life is transitory is all the more reason to embrace it while I can. And "subjective" is not a dirty word. As I said in post 28 on the Big Questions thread, the fact that I am the only person who can build and experience my meaning of life is not the same as saying it doesn't matter what I choose. If you want, you can go read that so I don't repeat myself here.Aleta
November 10, 2014
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Aleta: I do have a “deep longing” (although that isn’t exactly the phrase I would use) for understanding the nature of man – I find our existence fascinating and have avocationally devoted quite a bit of time and energy to my studies.
How does your naturalistic position accommodate all this? What is 'the nature of man', 'fascination' and 'devotion' if not merely 'particles in motion'? You speak highly of 'our existence', but why, since you know it is merely an illusion to - yes to what? - 'particles in motion'? How do you ... talk like that - being a materialist?Box
November 10, 2014
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William J Murray, here at UD:
I characterized my particular longing as a search for truth.
William J Murray at TSZ:
I guess you could say that I’m the ultimate pragmatist; I don’t care if my beliefs are true; I only care that they work (or at least appear to). If they stopped working, I’d believe something else. Doubt, in my system, is a non-sequitur.
I love William. :-)keith s
November 10, 2014
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<blockquote.So your flippant remark is really off-base, I think. It wasn't flippant. Do you really think there is all that much daylight between your longing to understand the nature of man and Mr. Arrington's stated longing to know or fulfill our ultimate purpose? I characterized my particular longing as a search for truth. Others might characterize that longing as a longing for some kind of enlightenment or for a lasting, deep peace and happiness. Whether or not we have access to such knowledge doesn't change the fact that it is the experience of longing for something more meaningful, deeper, or true beyond the merely subjective and transitory that drives us to study, research and argue passionately about our views and beliefs. If one actually believes it is all subjective and in the end of things doesn't ultimately matter, what's the point of arguing about it or really even thinking about it much?William J Murray
November 10, 2014
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Although I'm pretty sure WJM just wanted to be flippant, not serious, I'll offer a serious reply. In college, I was an anthropology major, and my main interests were religion, belief systems, and socialization. Over the years I've been interested in, and had various opportunities to study, philosophy (both Western and Eastern), psychology, the history of Western Civilization, the philosophy and history of science, and other related topics. I do have a "deep longing" (although that isn't exactly the phrase I would use) for understanding the nature of man - I find our existence fascinating and have avocationally devoted quite a bit of time and energy to my studies. Having this interest is not at all the same as longing for ultimate meaning. In fact, as with many people who study comparative religion, it is my understanding of the wide diversity of human religions and belief systems, both cultural and personal, that has helped convince me that we have no access to any knowledge about what the universe is "ultimately" about, if anything. So your flippant remark is really off-base, I think.Aleta
November 10, 2014
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Aleta said:
I have an adult lifetime of thinking and studying these issues..
Nothing says "no longing for ultimate meaning" like spending an adult liftetime thinking about and studying these issues.William J Murray
November 10, 2014
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centrestream: I absolutely agree. My experience in UD has been that if you disagree with what Barry (or Mr. Mullings, or Denyse) claim are ultimate truths you are not worth being listened to. And then you are banned. lol. And that ought not be the case. Right? Why not?Mung
November 10, 2014
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