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Methodological naturalism: Science enabler or science stopper? A response to Dr. Elizabeth Liddle.

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In a recent thread which has attracted a lot of lively comment, Dr. Elizabeth Liddle (a highly respected critic of Intelligent Design who surely needs no introduction here) mounted a vigorous defense of methodological naturalism (“MN”). She began by developing her view of the way science works, in a post on the thread:

[T]he idea that any scientific theory stops science is completely false. Science never stops, and a successfully supported hypothesis is a trigger for more research, not less.

In a subsequent post, Dr. Liddle then proceeded to explain why her view of science necessitates the adoption of methodological naturalism:

Yes, rejection of “MN” is religious, for a very simple reason.

It is not possible to investigate a non-material cause. With “methodological naturalism” we keep on investigating. With “methodological non-naturalism” you may reach a place you have to stop, because you’ve met the “non-material” part.

That stoppage is the religious rejection of “MN”.

I’ll repeat what I just posted elsewhere: “MN” is not a limitation on science. It is quite the opposite. It’s what leads us to keep searching. Rejecting “MN” is what poses limitations on investigation, not the acceptance of MN.

Dr. Liddle elaborated her views in another post on the same thread:

At the point at which you say: “this is not a material cause” you stop investigating. That’s all methodological non-materialism is – it’s stopping when you get to a bit you can’t explain by a material mechanism, and saying “something non-material did this bit”. Methodological materialism is not stopping…

I’d like to make a few comments at this point:

The Contingency Of The Ongoing Success Of Science

It is a contingent matter that we live in a universe where science is possible at all, even if we adopt a fairly minimal definition of “science,” such as: “the systematic tabulation [by intelligent beings] of observed correlations between various kinds of events, in a way that can be described mathematically.” The word “mathematical” is of critical importance here. The observation that the seasons go round in an annual cycle is not science. Nor is the observation that an animal will die if you slash its jugular vein. Both of these observed regularities have been of great practical use to human beings; and indeed, humans could not survive in a world without natural regularities which they could rely on. However, human beings could certainly survive quite well in a world in which they were aware of natural regularities, but were unable to describe them in mathematical language. In fact, for most of human history, that is precisely how we have lived.

I can make the same point in another way. Imagine an alternative world in which there were natural regularities, but in which no natural phenomena could be described by simple equations such as v = u + at (the first equation for uniform accelerated motion), or T^2 = K.(r^3) (Kepler’s third law). The mathematics required to describe natural phenomena in such a world might be too complex for the beings of limited intelligence who happened to live in it; hence science would forever elude them, although their technology might be quite good.

It is also a contingent matter that we live in a universe in which scientific enterprise can go on and on, with no end in sight. One can certainly imagine ways in which science might fizzle out. If we lived in a world of very limited variety, we might be able to fully describe its workings after only 100 years of scientific observations – and after that, we’d have to do something else to keep ourselves amused. Or we might hit a brick wall in scientific research for financial reasons: increased spending on scientific research might yield sharply diminishing scientific returns, so that after discovering the first few scientific laws, we found that the discovery of further laws rapidly became increasingly unaffordable.

So when Dr. Liddle writes that “Science never stops, and a successfully supported hypothesis is a trigger for more research, not less,” my reply is: “Does it have to be that way? I think not.” In 1997, John Horgan wrote a best-selling book titled, The End of Science, in which he addressed the questions: Have all the big questions been answered? Has all the knowledge worth pursuing become known? Interestingly, some of the scientists he interviewed were inclined to answer these questions in the affirmative.

Science, then, may well have an end, whether we like it or not.

All Scientific Explanations Have To Stop Somewhere

The next point to consider is that all scientific explanations have to stop somewhere – otherwise we get an infinite regress of explanations, which doesn’t explain anything. Of course, Intelligent Design critics are perfectly aware of this point, which is why they often raise the objection: “Who designed the Designer?”

So even if Dr. Liddle is correct in maintaining that a non-material cause is a science-stopper, we have to ask ourselves: “Is there a better place at which we should stop asking scientific questions than the point where the Immaterial Designer supposedly makes contact with Nature?” And my answer to that question is: “If you think there’s a better point at which to stop the process of scientific enquiry, then prove it’s better, by demonstrating to me that going beyond that point is scientifically more productive than simply taking the Designer’s alleged point of interface with Nature as a ‘given.’ After all, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.”

Jefferson’s Deity And The Cosmos As A Simulation: How Dr. Liddle Confuses “Non-Material” With “Non-Natural”

Dr. Liddle writes that “It is not possible to investigate a non-material cause.” But even if the Designer of Nature were a material cause, the material processes underlying His acts of design would still elude scientific investigation, simply because He is outside Nature, which means that the workings of His body will forever elude us.

President Thomas Jefferson firmly believed in a Designer of the laws of the universe, even though he believed that the universe had always existed. As he wrote in his letter to John Adams, of April 11, 1823:

… I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it’s parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it’s composition…We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it’s course and order…Some early Christians indeed have believed in the coeternal pre-existence of both the Creator and the world, without changing their relation of cause and effect.

At the same time, Jefferson regarded the notion of an immaterial Deity as utterly nonsensical. He explained his theological position in a letter to John Adams, dated August 15, 1820:

When once we quit the basis of sensation, all is in the wind. To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart.

Thus Jefferson envisaged the Deity as an embodied Being, eternally maintaining the universe in its law-governed order. If we let “Physics A” refer to the laws of our cosmos, and “Physics B” denote the laws governing the body of Jefferson’s Deity, which exists outside our cosmos, then it follows that since God is independent of the cosmos, our scientists will never be able to investigate Physics B, and hence will never understand the material processes underlying the Designer of Nature.

Or we can put it another way, and imagine that the entire cosmos – by which I mean everything in reality (inside or outside the visible universe) which is subject to the laws of Nature uncovered by our scientists – is part of a giant simulation, which was created as a science experiment by intelligent beings who are not subject to these laws that they have set up for the simulation. In that case, once again, the Designers of Nature would be material beings, but their materiality would be of a different sort to our own, as they would be subject to completely different laws, which are unobservable to our scientists, as they have no way of accessing the world outside the simulation.

What this tells us, then, is that Dr. Liddle is badly confused when she argues that an immaterial Designer would be a science-stopper. The problem here is not the immateriality of the Designer, but His existing outside the natural order which He has created i.e. the Designer’s transcendence, rather than His immateriality.

Rejection Of Methodological Naturalism Is Not Religious

Even if the rejection of methodological naturalism should prove to be a “science-stopper,” as Dr. Liddle argues, it still would not follow that “rejection of ‘MN’ is religious,” as she claims. In order to show that, one would have to show that rejection of methodological naturalism entails the existence of a Designer Who is also a suitable object of worship. Dr. Liddle has not supplied any argument to this effect. Her use of the term “religious” is pejorative; it demeans the serious philosophical arguments put forward by those thinkers whose vision of science is different from her own.

A Designer Of Nature Can Always Explain More Than Methodological Naturalism

In any case, the scope of phenomena that can be explained by postulating an Intelligent Designer of Nature will always be larger than the scope of phenomena that can be explained within the framework of methodological naturalism. The reason is simple: scientific explanations which accept the constraints of methodological naturalism are bound to take the laws of Nature for granted; whereas scientific explanations which go beyond the constraints imposed by methodological naturalism are capable in principle of explaining the laws of Nature.

The Failure Of Pythagoreanism

I might add that since the laws of Nature are immaterial abstractions, the current practice of halting our scientific explanations when we arrive at the ultimate laws of Nature is tantamount to stopping one’s demand for explanations at something immaterial.

Laws are abstractions. They are even less like material entities than an incorporeal Designer. It is odd that Dr. Liddle has no objection to the enterprise of explaining the world in terms of abstract mathematics, but objects vigorously to explaining the world as the product of a Designer Who wanted to make a cosmos fit for intelligent life. So I would like to ask Dr. Liddle, “Why do you consider an explanation of the cosmos as the product of an immaterial Intelligent Agent to be even worse than an explanation of the cosmos as the product of abstract mathematical entitles like numbers and forms, as Pythagoras thought it was? Surely an immaterial Intelligent Agent can do a better job of generating the cosmos than the number 4.”

Could A Designer of Nature Be Used To Explain Anything And Everything?

A hint as to why Dr. Liddle finds Intelligent Design explanations so unconvincing can be found in a lengthy but interesting comment she made on the same thread, in which she argued that the notion of an immaterial Designer is scientifically vicious, because it could be used to explain anything and everything, and that an explanation of that sort really explains nothing:

OK, let me try this a different way:

If you postulate an invisible intelligent power who can do anything, without leaving any trace of the tools of his/her trade, nor presence, apart from the artefacts s/he leaves behind, there is nothing you can’t explain. Giraffe recurrent laryngeal nerve? No problem, designer wanted it that way. Human female pelvis? Who are we to judge the designer? Hyena reproduction? Well perhaps the designer hated hyenas. Parasites that kill children? Well, perhaps the designer likes parasites more than children. Nested hierarchies? Well, s/he just liked designing that way. No bird lungs for mammals? Well, why shouldn’t s/he try something different, and why shouldn’t s/he keep those bird lungs strictly for the animals that look as though they descended in a particular lineage. In fact, why shouldn’t the designer make the world look as though it evolved?

That’s why a non-material, uncharacterised designer is not an explanation. An explanation that explains everything explains nothing.

However, if you were to postulate an actual material designer, that would be something else – we could actually draw some conclusions about the designer – his/her enthusiasms, his/her strengths, his/her weaknesses, his/her assembly techniques, his/her testing protocols etc.

Then we might have an actual explanation from the ID postulate.

But to do this work, IDists would have to postulate a material designer. Without doing so, none of this work is possible.

That’s the sense in which commitment to non-material causes stops science. Scientists don’t have to believe there are no non-material causes to do science. It’s just that the tools of science can’t investigate them. They are matters of faith, not science.

Immaterial Does Not Mean Inscrutable

Dr. Liddle appears to be setting up a straw man here. There have been theists who have laid great emphasis on what they call the sovereign will of God, to such an extent that they maintain it is not restricted by anything at all. God, they say, can will literally anything. I agree with Dr. Liddle that such a Deity would indeed be utterly capricious, able to explain everything and nothing. If there is a science-friendly Designer, He must be a Being Who is only able to will what is rational.

In her post, Dr. Liddle contends that “An explanation that explains everything explains nothing.” That’s a good argument against “a non-material, uncharacterised designer” but not against a Designer Whose objective is to create sentient and sapient beings, and Who uses His Intellect to accomplish this end in the wisest way possible. What kind of design flaws would we expect such a Designer to tolerate? I would answer: those flaws that cannot be avoided, because they arise as a result of conflicting biological constraints. A Designer would have no choice but to tolerate these.

The Perils Of Picture Thinking

I should point out that the mere fact that we can imagine a better design for an organism does not make it possible in reality. In a previous post of mine, entitled, Of Pegasus and Pangloss: Two Recurring Fallacies of Skeptics, I warned against the dangers of using picture thinking as a guide to possibility, when alleging instances of bad design:

…[T]he problem with this line of thinking is that it conflates two distinct notions: picturability and conceivability. Only the latter can tell us what is possible. Picture thinking cannot….

And that brings me to Pegasus, the winged horse. Is Pegasus possible? Certainly he’s picturable, as the image on the left at the beginning of this post clearly proves. But is he conceivable? Surely not. Just ask yourself a simple question: how does he fly? According to the laws of aerodynamics which obtain in our universe, this should be impossible. Picturability, then, is not a reliable guide to possibility. To argue that a better world is possible simply because we can picture it is to engage in childish thinking.

“Pegasus-thinking”, as I shall call it, is a besetting sin of Darwinists – by which I mean, advocates of an unguided evolutionary process whose principal mechanism is natural selection winnowing random variation. For instance, Professor Jerry Coyne argues in his book, Why Evolution is True (Viking Adult Press, 2009) that the male prostate gland is badly designed because the urethra runs through it, making men liable to enlargement and infection in later life. Aside from the fact that Coyne’s argument open to question on empirical grounds – creationist Jonathan Sarfati asserts that the risk of enlargement appears to be largely diet-related in his 2008 article, The Prostate Gland – is it “badly designed”? – Coyne is essentially arguing that because we can imagine a better design, therefore one is possible; and since we don’t find it in Nature, it follows that Nature is not the work of an Intelligent Creator. The question-begging underlying this argument should be readily apparent.

What About All Those Instances Of Bad Design?

Let’s start with Dr. Liddle’s example of bird lungs. Bird lungs originally evolved in order to enable the ancestors of birds to cope with very low oxygen levels, which were prevalent between 175 and 275 million years ago (see here). The reader might be asking: why don’t mammals have lungs like this? That’s a very good question. The (scientifically falsifiable) prediction I would make is that mammals would incur a severe fitness cost if they did. It should be easy enough for scientists to test this prediction by manipulating the genes of developing mammals to give them avian lungs, and then seeing how this impacted on their fitness. I am highly skeptical of the Darwinist “explanation” that evolution just happened to find a better solution for birds than for mammals. To me, that account explains nothing at all. It’s what I’d call a real science stopper.

But what about that most comical of anatomical imperfections, the laryngeal nerve of the giraffe, cited by Dr. Richard Dawkins as excellent evidence for Darwinian evolution? Now, if the laryngeal nerve were just involved in controlling the larynx, then Dawkins might have a good point. The laryngeal nerve comes down from the brain and loops around the arteries near the heart and then goes back up to the larynx. In the giraffe, this seems like particularly bad design. However, the laryngeal nerve actually has several branches all along its length that go to the heart, esophagus, trachea, and thyroid gland. Thus it is involved in a whole system of control of various related organs. It would be very unintelligent to have a single nerve, controlling only the larynx. It would be more intelligent to have it control a lot of related systems all along its length (see this article.) Hence the laryngeal nerve, far from being a problem for intelligent design, actually vindicates it.
Creationist Dr. Jonathan Sarfati makes the same point in a recent article entitled, Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve, and adds that its position may have something to do with the development of the animal as an embryo:

Dawkins considers only its main destination, the larynx. In reality, the nerve also has a role in supplying parts of the heart, windpipe muscles and mucous membranes, and the esophagus, which could explain its route.
Even apart from this function, there are features that are the result of embryonic development – not because of evolution, but because the embryo develops from a single cell in a certain order. For example, the embryo needs a functioning simple heart early on; this later descends to its position in the chest, dragging the nerve bundle with it.

This is a fruitful Intelligent Design hypothesis, and a falsifiable one. If it is wrong, we should know soon enough.
Finally, a recent article by Dr. Jerry Bergman, entitled Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve Is Not Evidence of Poor Design, in Acts & Facts 39 (8): 12-14, concludes:

The left recurrent laryngeal nerve is not poorly designed, but rather is clear evidence of intelligent design:

  • Much evidence exists that the present design results from developmental constraints.
  • There are indications that this design serves to fine-tune laryngeal functions.
  • The nerve serves to innervate other organs after it branches from the vagus on its way to the larynx.
  • The design provides backup innervation to the larynx in case another nerve is damaged.
  • No evidence exists that the design causes any disadvantage.

The arguments presented by evolutionists are both incorrect and have discouraged research into the specific reasons for the existing design.

What about the female human pelvis? We now know that Homo erectus females had large, wide pelvises in order to deliver large-brained babies, which meant that Homo erectus infants became independent far more quickly than modern human infants. However, the average brain size of Homo erectus was considerably smaller than that of Homo sapiens, and further evolutionary widening of the pelvis to accommodate larger-brained Homo sapiens infants may have severely hampered women’s mobility while walking. What happened instead was that Homo sapiens infants were born immature, which in turn meant that they required an extended period of parental care. Once again, we see trade-offs being made because of conflicting biological constraints. Blaming the Designer for this is like blaming Him for not being able to make a square circle. It’s simply childish.

There are parasites which are dedicated to attacking people: the malaria parasite, for instance. But what we continually need to remind ourselves is that we don’t know all the facts about the original condition of these seemingly malevolent organisms, as well as their subsequent development. Until we do, we are in no position to sit in judgment on the Designer.

For instance, according to a recent press release by the National Science Foundation, modern malaria parasites began to spread to various mammals, birds and reptiles about 16 million years ago. Malaria parasites may jump to new, unrelated hosts at any time, decoupling their evolution from that of their hosts. The ancestors of humans acquired the parasite 2.5 million years ago – very close to the time when humans first appeared. However, according to Dr. Robert Ricklefs, one of the biologists who conducted the recent research into the origin of the malaria parasite, “Malaria parasites undoubtedly were relatively benign for most of that history, becoming a major disease only after the origins of agriculture and dense human populations.”

An Alternative Intelligent Design Hypothesis?

In the post I quoted above from Dr. Liddle, she remarked:

…[I]f you were to postulate an actual material designer, that would be something else – we could actually draw some conclusions about the designer – his/her enthusiasms, his/her strengths, his/her weaknesses, his/her assembly techniques, his/her testing protocols etc.

Then we might have an actual explanation from the ID postulate.

So here’s my invitation to Dr. Liddle: if you really find the notion of a pure spirit philosophically incoherent, why not postulate a Jeffersonian Designer, who is subject to material as well as logical constraints? After all, materialistic Deism is a perfectly respectable worldview, with a long history. Look at the fossil record, examine the imperfections in living things, and tell me what you can deduce about the physical limitations of your Designer. The Intelligent Design movement is a very broad tent, and you’re more than welcome to conduct research along these lines. For the fact is that scientific arguments alone cannot rule out the existence of a Jeffersonian Designer. Only metaphysical arguments could do that. However, Intelligent Design proponents are not tied to any particular metaphysical view, as ID is a scientific program.

Over to you, Dr. Liddle.

Comments
And on what grounds. Some scientists as soon as certain topics are discussed, reject certain hypotheses. When you ask those people why they do so, you can hear very interesting answers indeed, occasionally quite honest.Eugene S
January 20, 2012
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Hi bornagain77, Thanks very much for the videos. I finally got round to watching them. Very interesting! These two individuals have both been given an extraordinary gift. I do hope they change the world with their gifts, when they get older. It would be great to hear the mature compositions of a new Mozart. And I'm really looking forward to see if Jake Barnett can change our understanding of physics - including randomness. Thank you once again.vjtorley
January 20, 2012
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Yes, Lizzie, I agree. This conversation with you has been a pleasure. I look forward to more in the future. BruceBruce David
January 20, 2012
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Chas, Don't read me wrong. I don't wish anyone a bad answer at that point. What I mean is I doubt you will be able to say then what you are saying now, the way you put it. Take care.Eugene S
January 20, 2012
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One major difference between living things and vacuum cleaners is that the former build themselves using a developmental program which makes the body parts and controls how they develop.
Exactly! Which is also the major difference between human artefacts and biological organisms! Which in turn is why we cannot extrapolate from human design to biological design. So I'm glad you agree :) Biological design, is, as you say, constrained by what is possible through a developmental program. And is why the argument for common descent is so strong (leaving aside the question as to whether evolution (in the weak sense) is guided or not. So while I agree with you, your point seems to undermine one of the most common arguments for Intelligent Design - organisms look like machines, and machines are by intelligent humans. Organisms don't really look like machines. They look like, well, organisms - self-building things that assemble themselves according to a developmental time-table, and at some point reproduce themselves by outputing another organism that goes through the same developmental process.Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for your post. One major difference between living things and vacuum cleaners is that the former build themselves using a developmental program which makes the body parts and controls how they develop. The fact that I can look at an organism and imagine a more "efficient" final arrangement of its body parts does not (of itself) guarantee that a program capable of reliably producing that arrangement of parts can be written - even by an omniscient Deity. For one thing, the outcome may be unachievable in practice, because it is contingent upon too many things falling into place (i.e. very unlikely). For another thing, the intermediate developmental stages may be biologically non-viable, so that the organism dies before it matures. Likewise, the fact that I can look and an organism and imagine new parts that would make it even fitter than it is now does not automatically imply that a program capable of constructing those parts can be written, even by an omnicompetent Designer. For even if it can be shown that the new parts would not disadvantage the organism, that a reliable mechanism for producing the parts exists, and that intermediate developmental stages are viable, it still needs to be shown that the code required to produce these new parts has no harmful side-effects that would otherwise disadvantage the organism. The upshot of all this is that critics using alleged instances of maldesign in order to attack the hypothesis of Intelligent Design have to do a lot more homework, if they want to prove their point. Imagining a better design simply isn't good enough. One has to be able to look at the organism's developmental program and understand how it works.vjtorley
January 20, 2012
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Thanks :) My schedule is all over the place at the moment, I'll post as and when it allows! Things are a bit calmer at the moment so I should be able to address all outstanding posts soon.Peter Griffin
January 20, 2012
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Good further thoughts . . . never mind language struggles, well worth putting down.kairosfocus
January 20, 2012
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Peter Gutman, Welcome aboard. Would you care to try expanding your ideas? KFkairosfocus
January 20, 2012
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Kindly show us a case of a design theorist, working in a scientific context, and inferring on empirical signs in an observed natural, world of life phenomenon, to demons or angels as the cause, on that alone. I think I smell a burning loaded strawman here. KFkairosfocus
January 20, 2012
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What difference does it make how it is particularly defined, unless one is just attempting to exclude certain things from science via definitional fiat?
It matters if people are rejecting it. I want to know what they are rejecting.Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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I suggest that this ongoing effort to define "what is science" and "what is not science" in particular ways beyond the logical examination and extrapolation of empirical observation and experiment is motivated by nothing more than the desire brand certain concepts as "non-scientific" and thus de-legitimize them in the eyes of the general population. A logical conclusion based on a scientific examination of the evidence that it is more likely than not that a deliberate intelligence generated the universe is as scientific a conclusion as a fire investigator reaching the conclusion that a fire was probably caused by an arsonist. All arguments to the contrary, IMO, are ideologically motivated attempts to exclude unwanted conclusions via definitional fiat.William J Murray
January 20, 2012
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What difference does it make how it is particularly defined, unless one is just attempting to exclude certain things from science via definitional fiat? Using observation, experiment, and logic, we can establish patterns and sufficient causes of behavior of phenomena that is both observable and implied (behavior of rocks rolling down a hill, and the force acting on them - gravity, inertia, random collisions, etc.). Science can also come to conclusions using logic, empirical observation and experimentation to find the best characterization of a sufficient cause for an effect - chance, the physical regularities we call "natural laws" like gravity, theoretical phenomena like superstrings or dark energy, or intelligent causation. Such conclusions are exactly what science pursues; they do not represent any "end" to science or abandonment of it.William J Murray
January 20, 2012
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William, can you give the definition of "methodological naturalism" that you are using? Because that seems to be at issue.Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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Invoking the hegemony of "methodological naturalism" when humans can only have a finite and incomplete understanding of what "naturalism" entails to manufacture a de facto exclusion of some theory or hypothesis based on preconceived bias that it is "science-stopping" is nothing but ideological bias. A finding of sufficient cause by an intelligent agency puts no more an end to scientific investigation than a finding of sufficient cause by physical regularity (law) or chance - unless one just wishes or assumes it to be so. Science's job is to put the sufficient cause on what is most likely the cause, not on what satisfies other ideological concerns. Refusing to put the cause on what is most likely because one believes such a cause cannot be scientifically investigated is the equivalent of claiming to know the entirety of what "naturalism" can entail. Unless one knows for a fact that god, non-embodied consciousness, ghosts, psi events, angels, the afterlife, etc. are immune to science (and how would one know that?), then there it cannot be any less scientific to propose any of those things as sufficient cause, or as explanations, or as valid theories than it is to refer to superstrings, chance, gravity, dark matter, dark energy, singularities, etc. Great O.P., by the way.William J Murray
January 20, 2012
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But in that case all we are doing is proposing that our own universe is merely a sub-universe in a larger universe. But if that larger universe actually impacts on our own, then it isn't separate from it - all we need to do is to enlarge our concept of the universe. It still, it seems to me, makes God a denizen of his own universe, and thus a discoverable, and perfectly "natural" agent.Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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"This is true in a very straightforward way (see my quote from McCabe): if something has an effect on a material object, then it is a force. This is true whether it’s my fingers landing on the keys, or a rain drop landing on the earth. So to me “non-material force” (or, if you prefer, “non-physical force”) is an oxymoron." Think of a computer game where you manipulate a ball with a joystick. Think of all the joystick manipulations as being forces. Now imagine the game is playing in a multi-tasking environment and a higher level user just pokes a different number into the memory slot that denotes the ball's position. You would suddenly see the ball move, yet no joystick "force" would have moved it. It seems to me that religion claims that this universe can be manipulated from the outside without using any kind of force and I don't see any way to gainsay that except to note that it never seems to happen where it can be properly observed.dmullenix
January 20, 2012
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1.1.1.3.2 Chas D I seriously doubt you will, Chas D.
Doubt away, mate! I am entirely at peace with the way I have conducted myself in life. If that is not good enough for some judgemental entity, then ... tough.Chas D
January 20, 2012
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1.1.1.3.2 Chas D I seriously doubt you will, Chas D. 1.1.1.3.1 Elizabeth Liddle It's the wrong thread for it. So in a few words. It's been extensively discussed not only on this blog but also in the science-philosophical literature. Some of the honest materialist scientists openly acknolwedge that they need to believe in what 'appears to be nonsense' such as the nonsensical multiverse or other rubbish like that with the sole purpose not to allow the Divine foot in the door of science. Some other scientists pretend not to be able to see this whole theological problem.Eugene S
January 20, 2012
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Elizabeth: I would like very much to go on with the discussion too. Peter, where are you? However, Elizabeth, your comments would be welcome too (and also to the old discussion about modelling, obviously) :)gpuccio
January 20, 2012
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I'd prefer "naturalist" I think, if it didn't mean David Attenborough.Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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Me too. Whatever that means :)Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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For the purposes of this blog, I define supernatural as anything like the God of Moses. I don't care to get into the quagmire of natural/supernatural demarcation when it's not absolutely necessary. I strongly suggest that the good doctor and everybody else on this blog, especially bornagain77 and anybody else who thinks that quantum mechanics somehow destroys materialism, go to Wikipedia and look up "materialism" and "physicalism". When most people say "materialism", they really mean "physicalism". I'm a physicalist.dmullenix
January 20, 2012
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Oh. Posted before clarification. Sorry.Chas D
January 20, 2012
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and "So you are the guy responsible for the female pelvis?"Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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That’s a shame.
+1. I may be biased, but I found his contributions lively and well-argued, with a nice touch of wry humour. He was robust, but then so are many.Chas D
January 20, 2012
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Oh, good. Because he was having a very interesting discussion with gpuccio, and I'd like to see it continue. Thanks!Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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Nope, if you followed the thread in question [in which you intervened to suggest, wrongly, that there was not adequate documentation for a key cite] and were inclined to recall that I have no power to ban, you would realise that I will simply correct for record, until he makes amends for some pretty snide remarks made in the teeth of abundantly accessible evidence. KFkairosfocus
January 20, 2012
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Maus, I'm sorry, I'm really not at all sure what you are saying here. I can't make sense of it. If I have defeated a straw man, fine. That's it dealt with. My position can be very simply stated: There are no scientific grounds for stopping investigation, only theological ones. If you agree, that's fine. If you don't, can you say why?Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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I guess there will be some people on the Judgement Day who will say to God: “But how come! You don’t exist.”
Nope. I will be saying "Judge away, mate". I might also ask "What was the point of all that cryptic stuff?".Chas D
January 20, 2012
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