Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Methodological naturalism: Science enabler or science stopper? A response to Dr. Elizabeth Liddle.

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In a recent thread which has attracted a lot of lively comment, Dr. Elizabeth Liddle (a highly respected critic of Intelligent Design who surely needs no introduction here) mounted a vigorous defense of methodological naturalism (“MN”). She began by developing her view of the way science works, in a post on the thread:

[T]he idea that any scientific theory stops science is completely false. Science never stops, and a successfully supported hypothesis is a trigger for more research, not less.

In a subsequent post, Dr. Liddle then proceeded to explain why her view of science necessitates the adoption of methodological naturalism:

Yes, rejection of “MN” is religious, for a very simple reason.

It is not possible to investigate a non-material cause. With “methodological naturalism” we keep on investigating. With “methodological non-naturalism” you may reach a place you have to stop, because you’ve met the “non-material” part.

That stoppage is the religious rejection of “MN”.

I’ll repeat what I just posted elsewhere: “MN” is not a limitation on science. It is quite the opposite. It’s what leads us to keep searching. Rejecting “MN” is what poses limitations on investigation, not the acceptance of MN.

Dr. Liddle elaborated her views in another post on the same thread:

At the point at which you say: “this is not a material cause” you stop investigating. That’s all methodological non-materialism is – it’s stopping when you get to a bit you can’t explain by a material mechanism, and saying “something non-material did this bit”. Methodological materialism is not stopping…

I’d like to make a few comments at this point:

The Contingency Of The Ongoing Success Of Science

It is a contingent matter that we live in a universe where science is possible at all, even if we adopt a fairly minimal definition of “science,” such as: “the systematic tabulation [by intelligent beings] of observed correlations between various kinds of events, in a way that can be described mathematically.” The word “mathematical” is of critical importance here. The observation that the seasons go round in an annual cycle is not science. Nor is the observation that an animal will die if you slash its jugular vein. Both of these observed regularities have been of great practical use to human beings; and indeed, humans could not survive in a world without natural regularities which they could rely on. However, human beings could certainly survive quite well in a world in which they were aware of natural regularities, but were unable to describe them in mathematical language. In fact, for most of human history, that is precisely how we have lived.

I can make the same point in another way. Imagine an alternative world in which there were natural regularities, but in which no natural phenomena could be described by simple equations such as v = u + at (the first equation for uniform accelerated motion), or T^2 = K.(r^3) (Kepler’s third law). The mathematics required to describe natural phenomena in such a world might be too complex for the beings of limited intelligence who happened to live in it; hence science would forever elude them, although their technology might be quite good.

It is also a contingent matter that we live in a universe in which scientific enterprise can go on and on, with no end in sight. One can certainly imagine ways in which science might fizzle out. If we lived in a world of very limited variety, we might be able to fully describe its workings after only 100 years of scientific observations – and after that, we’d have to do something else to keep ourselves amused. Or we might hit a brick wall in scientific research for financial reasons: increased spending on scientific research might yield sharply diminishing scientific returns, so that after discovering the first few scientific laws, we found that the discovery of further laws rapidly became increasingly unaffordable.

So when Dr. Liddle writes that “Science never stops, and a successfully supported hypothesis is a trigger for more research, not less,” my reply is: “Does it have to be that way? I think not.” In 1997, John Horgan wrote a best-selling book titled, The End of Science, in which he addressed the questions: Have all the big questions been answered? Has all the knowledge worth pursuing become known? Interestingly, some of the scientists he interviewed were inclined to answer these questions in the affirmative.

Science, then, may well have an end, whether we like it or not.

All Scientific Explanations Have To Stop Somewhere

The next point to consider is that all scientific explanations have to stop somewhere – otherwise we get an infinite regress of explanations, which doesn’t explain anything. Of course, Intelligent Design critics are perfectly aware of this point, which is why they often raise the objection: “Who designed the Designer?”

So even if Dr. Liddle is correct in maintaining that a non-material cause is a science-stopper, we have to ask ourselves: “Is there a better place at which we should stop asking scientific questions than the point where the Immaterial Designer supposedly makes contact with Nature?” And my answer to that question is: “If you think there’s a better point at which to stop the process of scientific enquiry, then prove it’s better, by demonstrating to me that going beyond that point is scientifically more productive than simply taking the Designer’s alleged point of interface with Nature as a ‘given.’ After all, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.”

Jefferson’s Deity And The Cosmos As A Simulation: How Dr. Liddle Confuses “Non-Material” With “Non-Natural”

Dr. Liddle writes that “It is not possible to investigate a non-material cause.” But even if the Designer of Nature were a material cause, the material processes underlying His acts of design would still elude scientific investigation, simply because He is outside Nature, which means that the workings of His body will forever elude us.

President Thomas Jefferson firmly believed in a Designer of the laws of the universe, even though he believed that the universe had always existed. As he wrote in his letter to John Adams, of April 11, 1823:

… I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it’s parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it’s composition…We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it’s course and order…Some early Christians indeed have believed in the coeternal pre-existence of both the Creator and the world, without changing their relation of cause and effect.

At the same time, Jefferson regarded the notion of an immaterial Deity as utterly nonsensical. He explained his theological position in a letter to John Adams, dated August 15, 1820:

When once we quit the basis of sensation, all is in the wind. To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart.

Thus Jefferson envisaged the Deity as an embodied Being, eternally maintaining the universe in its law-governed order. If we let “Physics A” refer to the laws of our cosmos, and “Physics B” denote the laws governing the body of Jefferson’s Deity, which exists outside our cosmos, then it follows that since God is independent of the cosmos, our scientists will never be able to investigate Physics B, and hence will never understand the material processes underlying the Designer of Nature.

Or we can put it another way, and imagine that the entire cosmos – by which I mean everything in reality (inside or outside the visible universe) which is subject to the laws of Nature uncovered by our scientists – is part of a giant simulation, which was created as a science experiment by intelligent beings who are not subject to these laws that they have set up for the simulation. In that case, once again, the Designers of Nature would be material beings, but their materiality would be of a different sort to our own, as they would be subject to completely different laws, which are unobservable to our scientists, as they have no way of accessing the world outside the simulation.

What this tells us, then, is that Dr. Liddle is badly confused when she argues that an immaterial Designer would be a science-stopper. The problem here is not the immateriality of the Designer, but His existing outside the natural order which He has created i.e. the Designer’s transcendence, rather than His immateriality.

Rejection Of Methodological Naturalism Is Not Religious

Even if the rejection of methodological naturalism should prove to be a “science-stopper,” as Dr. Liddle argues, it still would not follow that “rejection of ‘MN’ is religious,” as she claims. In order to show that, one would have to show that rejection of methodological naturalism entails the existence of a Designer Who is also a suitable object of worship. Dr. Liddle has not supplied any argument to this effect. Her use of the term “religious” is pejorative; it demeans the serious philosophical arguments put forward by those thinkers whose vision of science is different from her own.

A Designer Of Nature Can Always Explain More Than Methodological Naturalism

In any case, the scope of phenomena that can be explained by postulating an Intelligent Designer of Nature will always be larger than the scope of phenomena that can be explained within the framework of methodological naturalism. The reason is simple: scientific explanations which accept the constraints of methodological naturalism are bound to take the laws of Nature for granted; whereas scientific explanations which go beyond the constraints imposed by methodological naturalism are capable in principle of explaining the laws of Nature.

The Failure Of Pythagoreanism

I might add that since the laws of Nature are immaterial abstractions, the current practice of halting our scientific explanations when we arrive at the ultimate laws of Nature is tantamount to stopping one’s demand for explanations at something immaterial.

Laws are abstractions. They are even less like material entities than an incorporeal Designer. It is odd that Dr. Liddle has no objection to the enterprise of explaining the world in terms of abstract mathematics, but objects vigorously to explaining the world as the product of a Designer Who wanted to make a cosmos fit for intelligent life. So I would like to ask Dr. Liddle, “Why do you consider an explanation of the cosmos as the product of an immaterial Intelligent Agent to be even worse than an explanation of the cosmos as the product of abstract mathematical entitles like numbers and forms, as Pythagoras thought it was? Surely an immaterial Intelligent Agent can do a better job of generating the cosmos than the number 4.”

Could A Designer of Nature Be Used To Explain Anything And Everything?

A hint as to why Dr. Liddle finds Intelligent Design explanations so unconvincing can be found in a lengthy but interesting comment she made on the same thread, in which she argued that the notion of an immaterial Designer is scientifically vicious, because it could be used to explain anything and everything, and that an explanation of that sort really explains nothing:

OK, let me try this a different way:

If you postulate an invisible intelligent power who can do anything, without leaving any trace of the tools of his/her trade, nor presence, apart from the artefacts s/he leaves behind, there is nothing you can’t explain. Giraffe recurrent laryngeal nerve? No problem, designer wanted it that way. Human female pelvis? Who are we to judge the designer? Hyena reproduction? Well perhaps the designer hated hyenas. Parasites that kill children? Well, perhaps the designer likes parasites more than children. Nested hierarchies? Well, s/he just liked designing that way. No bird lungs for mammals? Well, why shouldn’t s/he try something different, and why shouldn’t s/he keep those bird lungs strictly for the animals that look as though they descended in a particular lineage. In fact, why shouldn’t the designer make the world look as though it evolved?

That’s why a non-material, uncharacterised designer is not an explanation. An explanation that explains everything explains nothing.

However, if you were to postulate an actual material designer, that would be something else – we could actually draw some conclusions about the designer – his/her enthusiasms, his/her strengths, his/her weaknesses, his/her assembly techniques, his/her testing protocols etc.

Then we might have an actual explanation from the ID postulate.

But to do this work, IDists would have to postulate a material designer. Without doing so, none of this work is possible.

That’s the sense in which commitment to non-material causes stops science. Scientists don’t have to believe there are no non-material causes to do science. It’s just that the tools of science can’t investigate them. They are matters of faith, not science.

Immaterial Does Not Mean Inscrutable

Dr. Liddle appears to be setting up a straw man here. There have been theists who have laid great emphasis on what they call the sovereign will of God, to such an extent that they maintain it is not restricted by anything at all. God, they say, can will literally anything. I agree with Dr. Liddle that such a Deity would indeed be utterly capricious, able to explain everything and nothing. If there is a science-friendly Designer, He must be a Being Who is only able to will what is rational.

In her post, Dr. Liddle contends that “An explanation that explains everything explains nothing.” That’s a good argument against “a non-material, uncharacterised designer” but not against a Designer Whose objective is to create sentient and sapient beings, and Who uses His Intellect to accomplish this end in the wisest way possible. What kind of design flaws would we expect such a Designer to tolerate? I would answer: those flaws that cannot be avoided, because they arise as a result of conflicting biological constraints. A Designer would have no choice but to tolerate these.

The Perils Of Picture Thinking

I should point out that the mere fact that we can imagine a better design for an organism does not make it possible in reality. In a previous post of mine, entitled, Of Pegasus and Pangloss: Two Recurring Fallacies of Skeptics, I warned against the dangers of using picture thinking as a guide to possibility, when alleging instances of bad design:

…[T]he problem with this line of thinking is that it conflates two distinct notions: picturability and conceivability. Only the latter can tell us what is possible. Picture thinking cannot….

And that brings me to Pegasus, the winged horse. Is Pegasus possible? Certainly he’s picturable, as the image on the left at the beginning of this post clearly proves. But is he conceivable? Surely not. Just ask yourself a simple question: how does he fly? According to the laws of aerodynamics which obtain in our universe, this should be impossible. Picturability, then, is not a reliable guide to possibility. To argue that a better world is possible simply because we can picture it is to engage in childish thinking.

“Pegasus-thinking”, as I shall call it, is a besetting sin of Darwinists – by which I mean, advocates of an unguided evolutionary process whose principal mechanism is natural selection winnowing random variation. For instance, Professor Jerry Coyne argues in his book, Why Evolution is True (Viking Adult Press, 2009) that the male prostate gland is badly designed because the urethra runs through it, making men liable to enlargement and infection in later life. Aside from the fact that Coyne’s argument open to question on empirical grounds – creationist Jonathan Sarfati asserts that the risk of enlargement appears to be largely diet-related in his 2008 article, The Prostate Gland – is it “badly designed”? – Coyne is essentially arguing that because we can imagine a better design, therefore one is possible; and since we don’t find it in Nature, it follows that Nature is not the work of an Intelligent Creator. The question-begging underlying this argument should be readily apparent.

What About All Those Instances Of Bad Design?

Let’s start with Dr. Liddle’s example of bird lungs. Bird lungs originally evolved in order to enable the ancestors of birds to cope with very low oxygen levels, which were prevalent between 175 and 275 million years ago (see here). The reader might be asking: why don’t mammals have lungs like this? That’s a very good question. The (scientifically falsifiable) prediction I would make is that mammals would incur a severe fitness cost if they did. It should be easy enough for scientists to test this prediction by manipulating the genes of developing mammals to give them avian lungs, and then seeing how this impacted on their fitness. I am highly skeptical of the Darwinist “explanation” that evolution just happened to find a better solution for birds than for mammals. To me, that account explains nothing at all. It’s what I’d call a real science stopper.

But what about that most comical of anatomical imperfections, the laryngeal nerve of the giraffe, cited by Dr. Richard Dawkins as excellent evidence for Darwinian evolution? Now, if the laryngeal nerve were just involved in controlling the larynx, then Dawkins might have a good point. The laryngeal nerve comes down from the brain and loops around the arteries near the heart and then goes back up to the larynx. In the giraffe, this seems like particularly bad design. However, the laryngeal nerve actually has several branches all along its length that go to the heart, esophagus, trachea, and thyroid gland. Thus it is involved in a whole system of control of various related organs. It would be very unintelligent to have a single nerve, controlling only the larynx. It would be more intelligent to have it control a lot of related systems all along its length (see this article.) Hence the laryngeal nerve, far from being a problem for intelligent design, actually vindicates it.
Creationist Dr. Jonathan Sarfati makes the same point in a recent article entitled, Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve, and adds that its position may have something to do with the development of the animal as an embryo:

Dawkins considers only its main destination, the larynx. In reality, the nerve also has a role in supplying parts of the heart, windpipe muscles and mucous membranes, and the esophagus, which could explain its route.
Even apart from this function, there are features that are the result of embryonic development – not because of evolution, but because the embryo develops from a single cell in a certain order. For example, the embryo needs a functioning simple heart early on; this later descends to its position in the chest, dragging the nerve bundle with it.

This is a fruitful Intelligent Design hypothesis, and a falsifiable one. If it is wrong, we should know soon enough.
Finally, a recent article by Dr. Jerry Bergman, entitled Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve Is Not Evidence of Poor Design, in Acts & Facts 39 (8): 12-14, concludes:

The left recurrent laryngeal nerve is not poorly designed, but rather is clear evidence of intelligent design:

  • Much evidence exists that the present design results from developmental constraints.
  • There are indications that this design serves to fine-tune laryngeal functions.
  • The nerve serves to innervate other organs after it branches from the vagus on its way to the larynx.
  • The design provides backup innervation to the larynx in case another nerve is damaged.
  • No evidence exists that the design causes any disadvantage.

The arguments presented by evolutionists are both incorrect and have discouraged research into the specific reasons for the existing design.

What about the female human pelvis? We now know that Homo erectus females had large, wide pelvises in order to deliver large-brained babies, which meant that Homo erectus infants became independent far more quickly than modern human infants. However, the average brain size of Homo erectus was considerably smaller than that of Homo sapiens, and further evolutionary widening of the pelvis to accommodate larger-brained Homo sapiens infants may have severely hampered women’s mobility while walking. What happened instead was that Homo sapiens infants were born immature, which in turn meant that they required an extended period of parental care. Once again, we see trade-offs being made because of conflicting biological constraints. Blaming the Designer for this is like blaming Him for not being able to make a square circle. It’s simply childish.

There are parasites which are dedicated to attacking people: the malaria parasite, for instance. But what we continually need to remind ourselves is that we don’t know all the facts about the original condition of these seemingly malevolent organisms, as well as their subsequent development. Until we do, we are in no position to sit in judgment on the Designer.

For instance, according to a recent press release by the National Science Foundation, modern malaria parasites began to spread to various mammals, birds and reptiles about 16 million years ago. Malaria parasites may jump to new, unrelated hosts at any time, decoupling their evolution from that of their hosts. The ancestors of humans acquired the parasite 2.5 million years ago – very close to the time when humans first appeared. However, according to Dr. Robert Ricklefs, one of the biologists who conducted the recent research into the origin of the malaria parasite, “Malaria parasites undoubtedly were relatively benign for most of that history, becoming a major disease only after the origins of agriculture and dense human populations.”

An Alternative Intelligent Design Hypothesis?

In the post I quoted above from Dr. Liddle, she remarked:

…[I]f you were to postulate an actual material designer, that would be something else – we could actually draw some conclusions about the designer – his/her enthusiasms, his/her strengths, his/her weaknesses, his/her assembly techniques, his/her testing protocols etc.

Then we might have an actual explanation from the ID postulate.

So here’s my invitation to Dr. Liddle: if you really find the notion of a pure spirit philosophically incoherent, why not postulate a Jeffersonian Designer, who is subject to material as well as logical constraints? After all, materialistic Deism is a perfectly respectable worldview, with a long history. Look at the fossil record, examine the imperfections in living things, and tell me what you can deduce about the physical limitations of your Designer. The Intelligent Design movement is a very broad tent, and you’re more than welcome to conduct research along these lines. For the fact is that scientific arguments alone cannot rule out the existence of a Jeffersonian Designer. Only metaphysical arguments could do that. However, Intelligent Design proponents are not tied to any particular metaphysical view, as ID is a scientific program.

Over to you, Dr. Liddle.

Comments
You banned Peter Griffin? That's a shame. Why?Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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What do you mean by "stochastic processes" Joe?Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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I agree that something not working properly isn't proof that engineers don't exist. But it is certainly evidence that the engineers who made the something were not omnipotent or omniscient. If the evidence implies an incompetent engineer, what are the theological implications? And if you think the evidence is for an omnicompetent engineer, then surely Nick's point holds?Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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What on earth is the theological problem raised by Darwinian theory? I just don't get it.Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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Exactly. Guys, if you want ID treated at science, leave the theology out, right? Or at least, leave theology out of the science part. Giving a theological answer to a scientific question (why is the human female pelvis so unsuited for delivery of human babies?) is exactly the way to get ID rejected as science. It's a perfectly good question, and Darwinian evolution has an excellent answer (we evolved from ancestors with smaller brains and longer tails). ID, qua science, doesn't have one at all. It only has one qua theology. If you are happy to have ID regarded primarily as theology, fine, but then don't expect it to be treated as science. But you can't have your cake and eat it. Certainly not in the US, and not even in the UK - if it's science it gets taught in Science, and if it's theology, it gets taught in RE.Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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so it will take about 80 milion years.
You assume that each erv must be fixed before the next one can arise. These are all copies of the same erv - they spread laterally in the genome as well as through vertical inheritance. What is being fixed is a particular ancestor with that erv in a particular position. A population could become infested with thousands of erv's, all in different positions in different members, out of which a sample of 100 becomes fixed in a future population, and the rest lost.Chas D
January 20, 2012
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I guess there will be some people on the Judgement Day who will say to God: "But how come! You don't exist."Eugene S
January 20, 2012
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NR: Thanks for a quite constructive comment. You are right that mathematics is not always involved in scientific analyses and explanatory modelling, though it is highly preferable if it can be so involved. That is because such modelling then brings to bear the "unreasonable effectiveness" of one of the most powerful tools in our kit. In particular, mathematics joins quantification -- broadly considered -- to objective measurement and the logic of necessary connexion, such that if A is credibly real in mathematical respects X, Y, Z, then certain other consequences that may well be observable and measurable, say I, J, K MUST follow on the model, and can then be observed in reality if that is actual. So, it is key to empirical reliability, testing and prediction/retrodiction, which validates the model (inherently, provisionally). So, while mathematics is not a necessary part of science, it is a highly preferred part. (The broader field that is a requirement of science is logic. And, it can be argued that mathematics is effectively a grown up sucker of the banana plant of logic.) However, I must disagree with your assessment of the "who designed the designer" objection. The reason it is a claimed reductio, is that it points to an impossible infinite regress. But, all that the design argument is pointing to is that, on a wide base of investigation and testing there are reliable signs of intelligent action, which may also be shown analytically to be operationally beyond the reach of the other known and reasonable candidate mechanisms, blind chance and/or equally blind lawlike mechanical necessity; on the gamut of the observed cosmos or the like. But in fact, there is nothing more than a sufficiently advanced molecular nanotech lab that would be adequate to explain life on earth, if that is our focus. My prediction is that across this century, we will achieve that much, or pretty near that much. Of course, that raises the issue that somewhere else there must be intelligent life. Our existence proves the possibility, so if we now see reliable signs pointing that way, no problem. Save, perhaps, to our pride. Now, if that life in turn is embodied and cell based or the substantially equivalent, it too will not be original, as the cosmos in which we live is not original; i.e. it is credibly a contingent being. That which begins has a cause, and the cause must be adequate to explain the effect. (Notice, the key distinction I am making, this is where the infinite regress of Dawkins falls into error.) I of course am pointing to cosmological evidence of design, and to the logic of contingent vs necessary beings. For the former, I start where Hoyle did, let us look at the way our cosmos is set up to put up H, He, O, C, N, as in effect the first four or five elements. H + O gives us water, an astonishing piece of elegance and subtlety. He gives us the base for chemistry, in the gravity-well fusion furnaces of the cosmos. (Let me plunk for Bussard electrostatic well polywell fusion or the like as a hoped for breakthrough.) O and C are at resonances that are finetuned and that is the point that led Hoyle to his monkeying with the cosmos remarks. C, H and O of course give us the hard core of organic chemistry, and N gets us to proteins. And, what is the physics of the cosmos set up to do? Deliver these five as the first five in effect! We can go on to other things, by the dozen, but that is enough for us to understand that the physics of our observed cosmos was finely tuned in a way that points to intentional, complex arrangement of parts towards a purpose. That is, systems design. It looks uncommonly like someone set up our cosmos for life. Next, logic: in addition to contingent beings, there is the possibility of necessary beings, beings that cannot not-be, i.e. they have no external necessary causal factor that has to be "turned on" for them to exist. (That is what is implied by having a beginning, e.g. a fire needs heat, fuel and oxidiser to be present in the correct balance or, no go.) A common example is necessarily true propositions like the truth asserted in our symbolic expression 2 + 3 = 5. There is no coherent, possible world in which that truth will not be, it ad no beginning, it is not dependent for its reality on the action of anything as such -- as opposed to having logical relations to other things -- and it will never cease from being. But propositions have no external "physicodynamic effects" in themselves. They are physically inert, they are not acting causes as such, though physical facts and events will per logical necessity conform to them. (Hence "the unreasonable effectiveness" and analytical power of mathematics!) Atomic matter or the like can have the sort of physicodynamic effects we mentioned, but are contingent, so they are not original. We need a non-physical, immaterial, necessary being with ability to create/cause a cosmos in accordance with intentions. A beginningless, powerful being that has no possibility of ending, and whose existence is implied -- even through a multiverse -- by a contingent cosmos. The best candidate? God. (Who is not built up from parts that can be put together and taken apart, which is BTW, a requisite for being a necessary being. No composite being that originates in a combination of a core cluster of parts, can be without cause. Which is as opposed to the possibility of a being that is inherently of complex unity. Such a being is at once complex and simple [bearing in mind that the unity and the complexity speak to different facets of the being . . . ], which is obviously able to explain a cosmos that is at once unified and complex.) Which is why there is an edge to the now generation-old joke about how the astrophysicists, general physicists and astronomers were rushing across to their campus chapels in lunch hour to listen to Sir Fred's meditation on the Monkeyer with physics, and then lining up to get baptised into the First Church of God, the Big Bang-er. So, patently, the inference to design is NOT an inference to the supernatural -- as has been pointed out over, and over and over and over ad nauseum and as has been willfully ignored just as consistently -- but instead an inductive inference to art acting by design, on empirically warranted signs. But, if the willful objectors can plant the notion that the inference proper is a disguised inference to the supernatural, they can toss a monkey wrench into the works of clear thinking on the matter. Which is exactly what has been done. Inference to design on cell based, aqueous medium life and its body plans, is NOT an inference to the supernatural, but an inference to intelligent design. Just as it openly says. And from the very first technical ID book in 1984, that has been explicitly declared. There is no excuse for those who have willfully set up a rhetorically convenient strawman and have set out to use it to poison discussion. (Barbara Forrest,et al, this means YOU.) There is a different level of design inference that points beyond our contingent world, but it is not the biological one, strictly. It is the cosmological design inference in light of the logic of contingent vs necessary beings. It appeals to a different world of evidence, and has an astonishingly powerful appeal. So much so that objectors are reduced to the absurdity of inferring to something from nothing [where that term SHOULD imply non-being . . . ] and/or an insistence on an unobserved, probably unobservable quasi-infinite multiverse. Which ends up simply postponing the finetuning issue one level! The H,He, O, C, N bridge to the living cell then connects the two domains. But that means that the inferential basis for drawing the conclusion that life is rooted in the designer of the cosmos, is much broader than that which is usually used in biology. Biology gets you to design. Cosmology gets you to a designer of a cosmos set up for life. Various worldviews are compatible with that, once they are amenable to design. That is a big tent indeed. It is only materialistic views that are not, and those are long since in deep trouble anyway, starting with undermining he basis for thinking reasonably and deciding purposefully and in accordance with real intentions. A priori, imposed evolutionary materialism dressed in the holy lab coat is irretrievably dead, analytically, but for the moment lives on ideologically, bleeding out before our eyes. Oh yes, before closing off, here is my extended offer of a "definition" of what science should be like (but may fail to be), from IOSE:
science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on: a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical -- real-world, on the ground -- observations and measurements, b: inference to best current -- thus, always provisional -- abductive explanation of the observed facts, c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein's favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments], d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and, e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, "the informed" is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.) As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 20, 2012
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what is material? Some materialism philosopher define material=being, and says matter is everything that exist. they argue in circle by saying: all existence=all existence. To avoid argue in circle we need distinguish "matter" and "being", i believe the commonsense will define material="physic particles". And God created those particles, that's why He is non-material. take a look at the multi universe Theory, how do we know other universe are all material? we can't know. So is multi universe theory supernatural? it depend how you define it. If the source of the nature process life and intelligence, then God is true, but if the source of the nature are cold dead materials only, then materialism is true. ID is the science to investigate this, and methodological naturalism avoid this investigation. That why i believe ID is better science.peter gutman
January 20, 2012
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Yes, there is a significant gap in our communication on this topic, Elizabeth. I don't have time to define material, natural and their 'opposites' (notice already non- and super- are used in your case, though not by others). Linguistic analysis is not necessarily psychoanalysis, a difference which I'm sure you can appreciate. Let me ask you though, Elizabeth, are the terms 'cultural,' 'political,' 'social,' religious,' 'economical' and/or 'linguistic' best called 'natural' in your approach? Iow, would these terms count as 'non-natural' the way you perceive of 'knowledge' and/or 'application'? Today heading to an exhibition of the great scientist and polymath Mikhail Lomonosov, whom some (in this country) say shares a similar status in terms of 'contribution' to world science and human knowledge as history's few greatest.Gregory
January 20, 2012
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Elizabeth, you have delivered the most brutal beating of a strawman that I have ever witnessed. When given hypotheticals, for the sake of argument, one reasons with what one is given or one rejects the hypotheticals as patent nonsense. Bruce's argument is directly equivalent to Atomism under the Greeks. There was no other way they could sort it out, but they couldn't test it. And so they stopped until they could. These things have repeatedly occurred, and in your noting Popper, he also noted this himself. His solution, natch, being that a philosophical framework is science if scientists believe in it. An oligarchic democracy of the rabbinical class, as it were. All of Popper's protestations that he was not a positivist were defenestrated with that defense of unfalsifiable philosophies. And so, by which, Bruce is correct that it should then be 'affirmed' by science; at least if a reasonable portion of Science Rabbis also affirm it. Despite your ostensibly 'matching' sets of hypotheticals they most certainly are not. They both stand is violation of Bruce's second hypothetical and then you use this lack of similarity to argue against his conclusion. That's not how it works. This shows most clearly when you argue that the rejection of Methodological Naturalism is a Popperian violation. Qua Bruce's second hypothetical it is necessary that the 'agency' determined would necessarily have been material, and thus within bounds. That said, if we ignore Popper's Postivist backslide then it remains that Evolution -- as it stands today -- is a rejection of Methodological Naturalism and thus, under your definition, religious. This is strictly true as the experiments, their replication and verification, are strictly absent at this time. And observations that are non-repeatable are themselves not verifiable. (I'll come back to this.) If we do not give charity to Popper and fully acknowledge his frou-frou descent into Postivism then Popper himself disavows Methodological Naturalism. And thus, by your own conclusions, the entire process of modern science is once again a religious institution. Disagree with this as you like and then tell me about Virtual Photons in physics. Where we have completely untestable bit popping in and out of material existence from the Quantum Vacuum with no material cause. Your desired conclusion, as you would like it, relies not on Methodological Naturalism, but on the content of the philosophies and theories that are allowed the status of being 'rabbinically approved' philosophies. Which is all properly Popper and brings us back to observations. If the observations are regular, predictable future occurrences, then there are no possible issues. Haley's comet is a perfect example of this as are the issues involving Kepler, Gallileo, et al. In all of these cases they were observations that could not be repeated as causal cases on the lab table. They were, however, all instances of Psychic Friends Network prognostications that had rigid -- and cyclical -- dates of expiration. If, however, we choose to define "makes predictions" as the idea that you will make a future prediction that humans will be digging in past dirt? Then Evolution is entirely justified as a full Scientific Philosophy. So is Christianity for the very reason that there are all manner of folks crawling up and down Ararat and other places to observe Noah's Ark and other issues of Biblical Archaeology. These two are directly and entirely synonymous. If you accept the full Popper then Christianity is a Scientific Philosophy without regard to Bruce's ignored hypotheticals; aside obvious issues of democracy of belief amongst a given subset of scientific employees. In the strawman you've created Evolution is a religion as it rejects Methodological Naturalism under Popper as we talk about him in polite company. All of your objections come down to observation. Accept Evolution, Christianity, and reject Methodological Naturalism as 'proper' science. Or keep Methodological Naturalism, reject Evolution, Christianity, and the farcical idea that a Cabal of Wise-Men can dispense Truth about the universe by taking a vote amongst themselves.Maus
January 19, 2012
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Not in the slightest. Nick's point was an Anselm ontological proof for [insert whatever]. Where Anselm 'proved' God existed because we could envision no bigger/greater being than God. Nick's ontological proof about the non-existence of engineers is that if *we personally* can dream up something better, then there was no engineer. And don't you know that I recite Nick's argument every time I need to set the clock on the Blue-ray player. Which also happens to be an incremental set of improvements going back to the original laser-discs. The clock, or course, is further proof of this incremental evolutionary advance. That damn thing hasn't changed since I last had a VHS player. And thus proves it in the same manner as mosquitoes.Maus
January 19, 2012
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Gregory, Thank you for your post. The ID movement would not expel someone with an alternative view: ID is a big tent, as I stated above, and we believe in exploring new possibilities. All those who believe that design is empirically detectable are welcome in that tent.vjtorley
January 19, 2012
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Exactly, but this is Nick's point. Clearly organism design (or "design") was achieved by incremental adjustments to existing code, just as evolutionary theory says. This is quite unlike human design, which can, if necessary, "go back to the drawing board" and produce a Dyson vacuum cleaner, or a rotary engine, or a ball-point pen.Elizabeth Liddle
January 19, 2012
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Gregory, I only have time for a very quick response right now. I don't know much about Paul de Vries. You're right to say that the term "methodological naturalism" is relatively new. The concept is older, but not as old as the NCSE would have us believe. It does not go back to the Middle Ages, as was alleged at Dover, but to the early nineteenth century. It only became generally accepted by scientists in the late nineteenth century. That's all for now.vjtorley
January 19, 2012
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Dr. Matzke, I have to say I laughed when I read your response - and I don't do that often. Your reply is a perfect example of the Pegasus thinking I warned against in my essay: "if you can picture it, then it's possible." You wrote:
The Designer didn’t have to square a circle, he just had to put the freakin’ birth canal somewhere other than right through a tiny hole in the pelvis. Why put it through the skeleton at all? A portal a few inches higher up in the lower belly would do nicely. No tearing and incontinence, no jamming the baby’s head through the pelvis, no problem with breach births, etc.
That's not a demonstration of possibility. To do that, you have to find the genes responsible for building the birth canal, show how they could be re-programmed to build a portal through the lower belly, and show that doing so would not render the animal less viable. I don't know of any animals that give birth in the way you describe, so I'm highly skeptical that the arrangement would even work. Evolution doesn't just occur at the macro level, as you are well aware. Showing how a design could be improved on isn't enough; you have to show how the code for it would have to be re-written.vjtorley
January 19, 2012
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Thanks for your gracious comments, Bruce! And I should have put scarequotes round "heresy" - I don't believe in it either :) The reason we disagree on the rest of that last part is probably that we disagree about the nature of intelligence (I don't think intelligence is non-material). But reduced the distance between us by a long way, I think, so let's enjoy the view :) Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
January 19, 2012
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Dammit, Elizabeth, I clicked the wrong "reply" button. I wish this blog had an "undo" button. Anyway, my response is in #16, below.Bruce David
January 19, 2012
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Well, Elizabeth, I basically agree with everything you have written until the very end, which I'll address below. Congratulations on a very well thought out response! If you allow design as a legitimate conclusion that scientific inquiry can draw (which most methodololgical naturalists will not), then your metaphysical (I use this term to include religion, other forms of theism, and materialism on an equal footing) position once that conclusion has been reached may very well determine whether or not you stop scientific inquiry into the origin of the phenomenon in question at that point. Another possibility is that the conclusion of design in certain cases may lead one to re-evaluate their metaphysical position, as happened with of Antony Flew, who abandoned his life long commitment to atheism in favor of deism (his word), based on what he saw as overwhelming evidence for design in the fine tuning of the constants and the origin of life. Regarding this:
There’s a third way, of course, which is McCabe’s: to regard “God” as the answer to the question “why is there anything, rather than nothing?” at which case the design inference becomes IMO, both irrelevant, and heretical! Because it supposes that there are two kinds of thing: designed; and non-designed. If God is the reason there is anything rather than nothing, then that is a false distinction, and there can be no feature of anything that indicates it is, as McCabe says “God-made” as opposed to not-God-made.
Here I disagree. I believe that God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. However, clearly God set up rules by which that universe normally operates (ie., natural law) which are discoverable by scientific inquiry. Newton believed that his work revealed the workings of the mind of God (and so do I), that this is a legitimate intellectual endeavor, and in fact can significantly increase one's sense of awe and wonder regarding the creation. Furthermore, it is perfectly legitimate to inquire into the structure and function of natural objects and systems, such as living things, the interior of stars, the weather, or indeed the entire known universe. If in the course of that work one finds that the origin certain types of phenomena can only be attributed to the work of intelligence and not by the working of natural law alone, then that is simply more information about how our universe is constructed. There is nothing heretical about such a conclusion. (Personally, I don't believe in heresy anyway. That is, in my theology, God does not impose any restrictions on what is ok or not ok to think.)Bruce David
January 19, 2012
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Eugene: Thank you :) By the way, I have almost finished my posts abou NS in the old thread (maybe one more). And I think you could be interested in my exchange with Peter Griffin here, about another important problem: https://uncommondescent.com/cosmology/why-we-shall-have-to-wait-for-a-real-biography-of-stephen-hawking/comment-page-1/#comment-415940 The discussion is about dFSCI, and it is rather long, but I believe my last posts offer some new perspective.gpuccio
January 19, 2012
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F/N: if PG means me by that [though due to his misbehaviour there is now only correction for record . . . ] -- and he cannot mean Joe as he holds UCD; in fact my challenge is that as a test case for Darwinists seeking to warrant their theory for macroevo the origin of lungs needs to be explained on empirically (observationally) warranted chance variation and natural selection or the like, and so far we have had much evasion and a few Creationist strawmen, but no cogent answer. Apparently PG is unaware ( by refusing to heed easily accessible information) that design theory is consistent with common descent, even, universal common descent, as say Behe -- should be familiar! -- holds. If he means me above, I quite literally have no firm view on universal common descent as such (just as I have no firm views on much of the scheme of dating of the earth [too many circularities, too much consensus thinking . . . ], but a much higher respect for the dating of major features of the observed cosmos [try the HR diagram for clusters, for instance in light of H-ball models for stars] . . . ), save that the FSCO/I in the world of life on best empirically warranted explanation points to design. This I know, for certainty, we were not there to observe the remote past of origins, we have no generally accepted record of it, and we are forced to reconstruct a model past on evidence and inference from the present. So, we are looking at inference to best -- abductive -- explanation, and no serious option should be ruled out by ideological a prioris. That design is a patently serious option is seen by how Dawkins has had to concede that the world of life, as studied by biologists, strongly gives the appearance of design. So, one should not a priori lock out that possibility on the sort of flimsy excuses in the OP and elsewhere. Ever since Plato, it has been known that the issue is not "natural vs supernatural," but instead chance and necessity vs art. And each of these has characteristic observable signs. The problem for materialists, is that the world of life -- as the very co-founder of the theory of evolution pointed out -- is full, chock full of that an unbiased mind would unhesitatingly see as strong signs of clever design in any other context. Lo and behold, when we look in this context, we see that the reason for the difference is an a priori imposition, cf here on. In short, we have a smoking gun, in a hand standing above the victim lying on the ground. If we do in fact have universal common descent, on the implications of FSCO/I it is of a variety that was programmed, ab initio or at various points or even both; such makes but little difference to the material issue. And BTW, there is a strawman game at work on the initial post. The crucial issue of methodological naturalism is its imposition of an a priori philosophical, question begging constraint that blocks science from inferring to the empirically demonstrable best explanation for FSCO/I: ART, not chance + blind necessity. My key concern on the imposition of Meth Nat in the world of life is that a mechanism that is patently inadequate has been allowed, by imposition of ideological, question begging a priori materialism, to lock science into a box of censorship, instead of leaving it to pursue the truth about the remote past on warrant. Science held captive to materialist ideology is not genuinely scientific. Period. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2012
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"We are among friends". I am sure we are, GPuccio. I read your posts with great interest and intellectual satisfaction.Eugene S
January 19, 2012
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Eugene: I agree with you that probably nopt all reality is formalisable, and therefore accessible to knowledge through reason. Well, let's drop the probably, we are among friends :) But still, we can IMO formalize that there is some part of reality that is not formalisable, and understand why. That would anyway be a very satisfying and complete map of reality. And what cannot be formalised could still be cognizable, although in different ways. Reason is not the only congnitive tool. And I also believe that formalisable (rational) cognition cannot be exhausted. It can become infinitely deeper, and never reach an end.gpuccio
January 19, 2012
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Elizabeth: I am happy we agree :) Think, in one day I succeeded in agreeing with Mark (although only on a political issue) and with you (om issues of more substance). That certainly made my day!gpuccio
January 19, 2012
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OK, dmullenix: whether or not we actually agree or disagree depends on how we are defining various terms. What do you mean by the word "supernatural"? Because the way you are using it doesn't to me seem to distinguish "supernatural" from "natural", it just seems to distinguish "observed regularities that we don't have good predictive models for yet" from "observed regularities that we do have good predictive models for". BTW I think gpuccio is bang on in 14.1.1.1.2. Which is a kind of cool inversion of the normal state of the world :)Elizabeth Liddle
January 19, 2012
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I'm a philosophical naturalist. I don't believe there is anything supernatural out there. I believe that methodological naturalism means that you only observe and measure what can be observed and measured - which pretty much rules out holy books, visions reported by visionaries, etc. You can observe a holy book and confirm that it's really a book or that a visionary reports a vision, but you can't check the stories in the book or the vision that the visionary tells you about. On the rare occasions where you can check such things out through material investigation, they invariably disappoint. At least so far, but I don't expect that to change. "Well, let me rephrase: if an investigation into a putative non-material cause turns out to be fruitful, then the putative non-material cause is not, in fact, non-material." I don't think you can make that claim. It implies that you know that the material world is the only world. It's permissible to THINK that, but you never completely know. I also think it's possible to investigate something supernatural IF it influences something material that we can investigate. As an example, if I was sitting in my living room and suddenly a disembodied land wrote the letters, "Mene, Mene, Tekel u-Pharsin" on my wall, I would consider that significant. I'd investigate for trickery, etc., but if things like that happened often I'd start to seriously consider the existence of a supernatural world that I couldn't detect. But that never seems to happen except in highly unreliable holy books or in stories told by unreliable witnesses. It never happens where you can see it.dmullenix
January 19, 2012
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Bird lungs can evolve. There is not any evidence that they evolved from non-bird lungs via stochastic processes.Joe
January 19, 2012
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What does YOUR position have as a testable explanation?Joe
January 19, 2012
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nick: humans evolved from Homo erectus, and this explains why our babies just barely fit through the female birth canal, and not realy. the gorila and chimpanzee have a 100 copies of ervs called pterv1, but no a single one in human genome. the fixation time to one erv is about 800000 years: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26836/ When a new neutral mutation occurs in a constant population of size N that is undergoing random mating, the probability that it will ultimately become fixed is approximately 1/2N. For those mutations that do become fixed, the average time to fixation is approximately 4N generations so it will take about 80 milion years. but according to the theory it take only 6 milion since the last speciation. secondly, the homo erectus can be human and not an ape.mk
January 19, 2012
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gpuccio, I absolutely agree :D Utterly and wholeheartedly. Cool.
a) “natural” and “supernatural” are completely meaningless concepts. Worse, they are dangerous concepts. “Natural” presuppose a detaile philosophical definition of what nature is, and there are a lot of contrasting possibilities. That’s why all the debate about methodological naturalism is simply confounding: it is only a way for debaters to assume their personal philosophy as the basis for science. Science is not abou “nature” (whatever it is). It is about reality. I am all for “methodological realism”. Indeed, for simple realism. b) “Material” and “non material” are ambiguous too. We have no definite definition for matter, and usually those whoi use those terms include things that are not “matter”, like enerjy, forces, and so on. So, unless we use “natter” for “something having mass”, which would be very restrictive, “material” can only mean “what can be explained accordimg to current paradigms of physics”. That is again a very dangerous concept, cutting out for instance, at least at present, dark energy (whatever it is) and conscious experiences (whatever they are). Again, realism and good science have to take those things into consideration, because they are real (or at least, the facts we refer to, conscious experiences and the observations that lead to the dark energy problem, are real). IOWs, realism is the only guiding principle of science: science is about how things are.
And I am more than happy to agree to the term "methodological realism". As you define it, it is how I have been interpreting "methodological naturalism". Very nicely put. Case solved! Thanks!Elizabeth Liddle
January 19, 2012
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