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Michael Behe, Eric Anderson, David Chiu, Kirk Durston mentioned favorably in ID-sympathetic Peer-Reviewed Article

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Congratulations to Michael Behe, Eric Anderson, David Chiu, Kirk Durston (members of ISCID). They were mentioned in the peer reviewed journal International Journal of Molecular Sciences. References were made to Darwin’s Black Box by Michael Behe, “Irreducible Comlexity Reduced” in ISCID’s PCID by Eric Anderson, and peer-reviewed works by David Chiu and Kirk Durston.

Here is the paper: The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity

Great paper!

The cause and evolution of complexity are frequently addressed in the literature [10, 134-141]. How complexity relates to life has attracted innumerable papers [6, 142-148]. Systems Biology emphasizes the growing genomic and epigenetic complexity [149-151]. Attempts to deal with Behe’s “irreducible complexity” [152] are appearing more often in scientific literature [153-157].

The much vaunted Avida community is indirectly criticized:

Despite the appealing similarities of terms like “chromosomes,” GA’s have no relevance whatsoever to molecular evolution or gene emergence. Inanimate nature cannot define a fitness function over measures of the quality of representations of solutions. GAs are no model at all of natural process. GA’s are nothing more than multiple layers of abstract conceptual engineering. Like language, we may start with a random phase space of alphabetical symbols. But no meaning or function results without deliberate and purposeful selection of letters out of that random phase space. No abiotic primordial physicodynamic environment could have exercised such programming prowess.

Neither physics nor chemistry can dictate formal optimization, any more than physicality itself generates the formal study of physicality. Human epistemological pursuits are formal enterprises of agent minds. Natural process GAs have not been observed to exist. The GAs of living organisms are just metaphysically presupposed to have originated through natural process. We can liberally employ GAs and so-called evolutionary algorithms for all sorts of productive tasks. But GAs cannot be used to model spontaneous life origin through natural process because GAs are formal.

The OOL community is indirectly criticized. “Choice with intent” might be a stealth phrase for intelligence. “Choice with intent” is required of any agency that creates organization:

Organization ≠ order. Disorganization ≠ disorder. Self-ordering of many kinds occurs spontaneously every day in nature in the absence of any organization. Spontaneous bona fide self-organization, on the other hand, has never been observed.

“Self-organization” is logically a nonsense term. Inanimate objects cannot organize themselves into integrated, cooperative, holistic schemes. Schemes are formal, not physical. To organize requires choice contingency, not just chance contingency and law-like necessity. Sloppy definitions lead to fallacious inferences, especially to category errors. Organization requires 1) decision nodes, 2) steering toward a goal of formal function, 3) algorithmic optimization, 4) selective switch-setting to achieve integration of a circuit, 5) choice with intent.

The only entity that logically could possibly The only entity that logically could possibly be considered to organize itself is an agent. But not even an agent self-organizes. Agents organize things and events in their lives. They do not organize their own molecular biology, cellular structure, organs and organ systems. Agents do not organize their own being. Agents do not create themselves.
…
We will point to hundreds of peer-reviewed papers with “self-organization” in their titles. But when all of these papers are carefully critiqued with a proper scientific skepticism, our embarrassment only grows with each exposure of the blatant artificial selection that was incorporated into each paper’s experimental design. Such investigator involvement is usually readily apparent right within Materials and Methods of the paper.

passing mention of macro evolution is made:

Linear digital prescription in physical nucleic acid has thus far invariably been associated with life. A fully post modern anthropocentrism cannot argue a logically consistent macroevolutionary paradigm.

the conclusion:

To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it:

“Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut [9]: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.”

HT: chunkdz at Telic Thoughts

Notes:

1. “choice is the defining feature of intelligence” — William Dembski

2. The relationship of “choice” versus “chance and necessity” as well as the relationship of “choice” and “intelligence” was discussed peripherally at UD here: Cosmological ID in 1744?

3. The only mention of Darwin in this paper was in the title of with Behe’s book and in sentences with words like “confused”.

Comments
In #333 Sal wrote:
"I would actually argue a computer, a cell, and life-itself are emergent phenomenon not reducible to ordinary physics and chemistry."
I completely agree. This is one of the main reasons that I believe that the question of the origin of life is fundamentally separate from the question of biological evolution. As I have pointed out in comment #348 (assuming that the numbering stays the same after my comments emerge from moderation), biological evolution is the result of four processes, all four of which are emergent properties of living systems.Allen_MacNeill
April 12, 2009
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In #332 jerry asserts that Gould's version of the theory of evolution is a "gradualistic" theory, not different in essence from the one at the heart of the "modern synthesis" (i.e. "neo-Darwinism"). This is clearly a gross misunderstanding of Gould's theory, especially as presented in his paper coauthored with Niles Eldredge in 1972, in which they presented the theory of punctuated equilibrium. In that paper, they clearly contrasted their theory with what they referred to as "phyletic gradualism" and carefully pointed out how their theory was much better at explaining the patterns of phenotypic changes observed in the fossil record. IOW, calling Gould's theory of evolution (in which punctuated equilibrium is a central explanatory concept) "gradualist" is like calling Mt. Everest a "valley".Allen_MacNeill
April 12, 2009
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khan, "exaptation requires natural selection to operate just as much as plain old adaptation. how else do you think those mutated gene duplications with new functions become fixed in the population? do you disagree?" Never said it doesn't. I have been on record at several different places over time on the efficacy of natural selection as a process that causes change in nature. I have never doubted that natural selection processes operates and selects. The problem has always been that natural selection rarely has anything meaningful (in terms of the evolution debate) to select (by the way notice I didn't say never but that they are rare and so far I haven't seen how complex novel capabilities could have arisen to be selected.) The origin of new complex capabilities or what we call here macro evolution is where the debate is. Natural selection will often chose a better option in terms of survival which is obviously important to the organism and its gene pool but it can not select what isn't there. My problem is that no one has shown that Allen MacNeill's 50+ engines of variation ever produced anything meaningful for natural selection to operate on. I have no problem with genetics and have said so maybe a hundred times or more. But without the necessary variation natural selection is hopeless as a process that produces novel complex capabilities and only conserves. You are getting tiresome with all these attempts at a gotcha. They are getting more feeble as time goes on. Give it a rest. It just makes you look bad when you suggest there is something I believe in when I don't. It is not good to create straw men to knock down. To give you a heads up for futures. I believe in micro evolution which by the way includes natural selection and all the other elements of genetics. That means I also believe in Allen MacNeill's 50+ engines of variation to the genome which includes gene duplication. I have also pointed you to the latest thinking on genome modification which I do not deny. In fact I, the ID supporter, have to give the anti ID supporters the latest in evolutionary thinking. Which Allen MacNeill provided and verified that I had a correct assessment. I don't view it as any threat to ID since there is no evidence that source of variation has ever led to anything. I am just saying what is the latest thinking not that it is correct thinking. Natural selection only has the power to bring out of the genome what is currently there (repeated for the umpteenth time.) If it is not there, it cannot create it. So the real issue in the evolution debate is the source of new variation to a population gene pool that underlies the origin of complex novel capabilities (repeated for the umpteenth time.) So do you get the picture. So far I have not seen any credible evidence that points to any process as capable of producing the variance in a gene pool to get from microbes to man and many of the steps along the way. There are lot of gene pools in that long set of sequences and I have not seen how the new variance could be produced for many of the steps. If you want to pick at that, go ahead or want clarification, go ahead but before you attempt your next set of gotchas, you should ask before hand if I believe in something or not. Like when you asked the other day about why I considered natural selection a weak force. Yes it is because all it does is select what is already there (repeated for the umpteenth plus one time.) Darwin was misled by artificial selection because he led him to believe thatt there was magic somewhere within the organism that could be brought out by the right combination of conditions. Well he was wrong. There are limits to what is in the organism that eventually can be expressed.jerry
April 12, 2009
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In #323 jerry wrote:
"The theory [of exaptation]...says that non coding regions mutate and a very small number of them eventually produce a functional element which is then exapted to some use. The main form of mutation is transposition through reverse transcriptase."
This is a grossly inadequate description of Gould and Vrba's definition of the term "exaptation". First of all, exaptation is not defined genetically (i.e. in reference to "non-coding regions in DNA"). Rather, exaptation refers to alterations in the frequency of particular phenotypic characteristics in populations as the result of changes in the demographic survival and reproduction of individuals with particular phenotypic characteristics. Indeed, in Gould and Vrba's original definition of "exaptation", they limited it to characteristics that were adapted to one particular function being altered to produce another, related function. However, since Gould and Vrba proposed the term in 1982, evolutionary biologists have recognized that these limitations to exaptation need not necessarily apply, and that it could refer to a process whereby any phenotypic characteristic (adaptive or not) could be altered by the "engines of variation" and subsequent changes in frequency of expression among the individuals in a population to become a significantly different characteristic (and again, not necessarily one that is "adaptive" by the traditional sense of that term, nor one that is related to the original function of the characteristic in any way). Furthermore, as Jablonka and Lamb have recently pointed out, such phenotypic characteristics need not be genetically inherited at all, nor do they necessarily have to start out as non-adaptive characteristics. Ergo, what jerry asserts is the whole of "exaptation" is actually only one mechanism from dozens, possibly hundreds, by which the demographic distribution of heritable phenotypes may change over time in populations of living organisms.Allen_MacNeill
April 12, 2009
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In #319 UprightBiped wrote:
"If our theories are to be the best explanations for life, then he’s assuming the protection of a division within that explanation - which he himself has placed there. Why would he want a divide? He’s then free to tend the fence by passing off papers that are beside the point. The central conclusion of Abel’s work is that chance and necessity cannot coordinate the required function within nucleic sequencing, and that only agency is capable of creating such a pattern. Where has your opponent addressed the stated reasons for this conclusion?"
Ever since Darwin's publication of the Origin of Species, evolutionary biology has been based on four biological mechanisms which, taken together, produce the characteristics we see in living organisms. These mechanisms are: 1) Variety: There are non-trivial differences between the phenotypes of organisms in populations, produced by the "engines of variation" (listed here: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2007/10/rm-ns-creationist-and-id-strawman.html ); 2) Heredity: some of the variations produced by the "engines of variation" are heritable from parents to offspring; 3) Fecundity: Some of the individuals whose variations are heritable can reproduce and pass on those variations to their offspring (in the "classical" form of this condition, such reproduction is considered to be maximized); and 4) Demography: Some individuals survive and reproduce more often than others. There are two primary outcomes that result from these demographic changes: 01) Adaptation: Some characteristics become more common among the members of a population; and 02) Descent with Modification: The characteristics that are present in populations change over time in a way describable using cladograms (i.e. phylogenetic "trees"). That's evolutionary biology in brief. Even a cursory glance at the six numbered points listed above will indicate to almost anyone that the origin of life from non-living materials does not involve a single one of the processes and outcomes listed: OOL1) Variety: Yes, if life originated from non-living materials, there would presumably be considerable variation between the materials formed. Indeed, there would almost certainly be much more variation, as there would presumably be racemix mixtures of the chiral molecules formed, which only later in the process became canalized into homochiral forms. But none of the "engines of variation" that produce differences between the phenotypes of living organisms produce the changes we see in spontaneously formed biomolecular building blocks. OOL2) Heredity: It should be obvious to anyone on this list that genetic heredity is a consequence of the origin of life and the genetic code, not a prerequisite for it. OOL3) Fecundity: Reproduction, even among asexual organisms such as bacteria, is a complex biological process requiring the coordination of multiple biological processes, including the replication of genetic material and the coordinated production of new cells (and tissues, organs, etc. in multicellular eukaryotes). Again, none of this is possible until after the origin of life, the genetic code, and cellular metabolism and reproduction have already occurred. OOL4) Demography: Yes, the "sorting" of spontaneously formed biomolecular monomers and polymers show patterns of formation and destruction that could be called "demographic", but only by stretching the definition of that term virtually to the breaking point. OOL5) Adaptation: Same response as for the previous point (OOL4). OOL6) Descent with Modification: "Descent" requires reproduction, and the kind of "descent with modification" posited as the outcome of biological evolution also requires genetic heredity. Ergo, there is a fundamental dividing line between the purely chemical and physical processes that are invoked to explain the spontaneous origin of life from non-living materials and the biological processes which, operating together, produce the phenomenon we refer to as biological evolution. No amount of unsupported assertion can make this fundamental division go away, no matter how much the people making the assertions (on both sides of the OOL issue) would like it to.Allen_MacNeill
April 12, 2009
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oh and jerry, here’s another example of exaptation in action: http://www.nature.com/nature/j.....04696.html
That paper is an example of proof by circular reasoning.scordova
April 12, 2009
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----JAD: "What real scientist ever had to remind everyone to read his papers. You can’t name one and you know it." I was just trying to provide you with suggestions about how to get off the sidelines and on to the playing field. Why would anybody show up for the game and then decide that they don't want to play, especially if they are qualified? I am not getting that.StephenB
April 12, 2009
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Stephen B in #324 There is plenty wrong with that. What real scientist ever had to remind everyone to read his papers. You can't name one and you know it. The atheist Darwinians are well aware of my papers and the manner in which they devastate their silly thesis. Why else do you suppose they have they banished me from their intellectual ghettos? I am now holding forth on Dembski's recent thread. I have little more to offer here where most of my comments have not even appeared thanks to the high handed tactics of the author of this thread. If you have any further comments directed toward me do it there. I'm finished here.JohnADavison
April 12, 2009
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jerry There s no room for "debate" in science and never has been. There is only discovery of unalterable truth and its dissemination. Name a single issue that was ever resolved thrugh "debate." You won't of course because you can't.JohnADavison
April 12, 2009
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oh and jerry, here's another example of exaptation in action: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7089/full/nature04696.htmlKhan
April 12, 2009
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jerry, I was just commenting on what you said and pointing out that exaptation requires natural selection to operate just as much as plain old adaptation. how else do you think those mutated gene duplications with new functions become fixed in the population? do you disagree?Khan
April 12, 2009
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khan, You should read the Vrba and Eldredge book on macro evolution especially the first chapter to understand the debate.jerry
April 12, 2009
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Nakashima, Where do the proteins come from? I am saying they cannot come from amino acids coming together in some chemical reaction unless you are saying that a high percentage of random protein combinations are useful for something. There are just too many combinations to be searched unless a high percentage have some function and any old proteins will do. You can define useful in any way that makes sense for life. For example, they have some function in some life process. So I am saying that random protein formation in some chemical soup in some environment can not be the origin of those proteins used in life unless a very high percentage of proteins have some functional use.jerry
April 12, 2009
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Reductionism is a worthy goal. Much of scientific advancement and mathematics came about through reductionistic explanations. But as Chaitin pointed out, pure mathematics is irreducibly complex (ala Godel). Reductionism of everything is not possible even in principle. Ironically these philosophical issues have practical importance. When we create compressed files (either exact or lossy compressed files), such as MP3 JPEG, whatever, we are dealing the the limits of reduction. How far can we reduce certain concepts such as musical sounds or photographic images to more compact representations? With mechanical processess like data compression, we are actually dealing with issues of reductionism. If complex data were reducible to very simple forms we would have no need of mass storage or large bandwidth communication devices. By many lines of thought and technological experience and mathematical proof, we are coming to terms with the limits of reductionistic explanations. Black and white photographs of colorful scenes are lossy representations of reality. One cannot reconstruct in exact detail the color properies of a scene from a black and white photo. The science of physics and chemistry are lossy compressed representations of reality. It is futile to try to understand compuation in terms of these reduced representations of reality. It might be possible to describe physics in terms of computation, but not the other way around, much like we can derive a black and white photo from a color photo, but not the other way around. These considerations are at the heart of Abel's paper.scordova
April 12, 2009
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Mr Cordova, I don’t think you should tell Dell, etc. that computers are not reducible to physics and chemistry!
Computers may be composed of physical and chemical materials, but laws of physics and chemistry do not sufficiently describe nor can they describe what a computer is. This would be about as difficult as describing the experience of color using black and white ink. The concepts are in different worlds. Attempting to describe what a computer is by sole reference to the laws of physics (such as classical mechanics, relativity, quanutm mechanics, themodynamics) doesn't seem possible much less appropriate. The concepts of traditional physics and computation seem very distinct. [Although, as I alluded to above (with Landauer and Chaitin), there is a school of thought the laws of physics are compuations. If so then computation may explain the laws of physics, but not the other way around.]scordova
April 12, 2009
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Let us honor Fox for trying! Dittos to that. I don’t think you should tell Dell, etc. that computers are not reducible to physics and chemistry! Are you sure of that? :-) What is the value of the material components of a computer? What is the value of the computer? Why is there a difference?tribune7
April 12, 2009
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I thought to mention, the notion of organization has little meaning without a very great capacity and tendency toward dis-organization. Hence, self-organizing (as used in OOL) is a bit of a meaningless concept.scordova
April 12, 2009
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Mr Cordova, I don't think you should tell Dell, etc. that computers are not reducible to physics and chemistry! :) There are many mathematical systems that are 'duals' of each other. Neither is more 'fundamental' than the other. So the basic description of the world may come in different choices of "fundamental" particles.Nakashima
April 12, 2009
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Mr Jerry, What does "useful" mean if you are just synthesizing random 45 AA proteins? It sounds like you are attempting a criticism of "metabolism first" OOL theories, such as Stuart Kauffman's.Nakashima
April 12, 2009
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Cabal wrote: I am not yet convinced that we may dismiss self-organization as a relevant subject without taking a closer look first: http://plus.maths.org/issue37/.....index.html Would Sal care to comment?
Yes. Sorry for the delay. You raise an important consideration. I had commented about Laughlin's work at UD before. See: Irreducible Complexity in Mathematics, Physics, and Biology In that thread I quoted an article from the NY Times, December 4, 2001
In science's great chain of being, the particle physicists place themselves with the angels, looking down from the heavenly spheres on the chemists, biologists, geologists, meteorologists — those who are applying, not discovering, nature's most fundamental laws. Everything, after all, is made from subatomic particles. Once you have a concise theory explaining how they work, the rest should just be filigree. Even the kindred discipline of solid-state physics, which is concerned with the mass behavior of particles — what metals, crystals, semiconductors, whole lumps of matter do — is often considered a lesser pursuit. "Squalid state physics," Murray Gell-Mann, discoverer of the quark, dubbed it. Others dismiss it as "dirt physics." Recently there have been rumblings from the muck. In a clash of scientific cultures, some prominent squalid-staters have been challenging the particle purists as arbiters of ultimate truth. "The stakes here are very high," said Dr. Robert B. Laughlin, a Stanford University theorist who shared a Nobel Prize in 1998 for discoveries in solid-state physics. "At issue is a deep epistemological matter having to do with what physics is." Last year Dr. Laughlin and Dr. David Pines, a theorist at the University of Illinois and Los Alamos National Laboratory, published a manifesto declaring that the "science of the past," which seeks to distill the richness of reality into a few simple equations governing subatomic particles, was coming to an impasse. Many complex systems — the very ones the solid-staters study — appear to be irreducible. Made of many interlocking parts, they display a kind of synergy, obeying "higher organizing principles" that cannot be further simplified no matter how hard you try. Carrying the idea even further, some solid-state physicists are trying to show that the laws of relativity, long considered part of the very bedrock of the physical world, are not platonic truths that have existed since time began. ... In the world of solid-state physics, quasi particles abound. In some substances, like the semiconductors used to make computer chips, the displacement of an electron leaves behind a "hole" that behaves like a positively charged particle. An electron and a hole can sometimes stick together to form a chargeless quasi particle called an exciton. Other such ephemera include magnons and polarons. Evanescent though they are, quasi particles act every bit like elementary particles, obeying the laws of quantum mechanics. This has led some mavericks to wonder whether there is really any difference at all. Maybe elementary particles are just quasi particles — an effervescence in the vacuum.
But the issue with solid state physics is not one of SELF-organization but one of emergence once an organization is already existing. For the phenomenon of electron "holes" to exist, an irreducible organization, like a solid-state transistor has to be created in the first place. Note the controversy of immutable platonic forms emerges not only in biology but also physics. Physics has traditionally been defined by the search for elegant platonic forms in Nature. Squalid-state-physics goes against long held traditions. The bottom line is that Laughlin's work does not necessarily imply SELF-organization, it is more an inquiry of what happens when certain irreducibly complex organizations are already put together. A good example might be superconductivity, or even the behaviors of common place appliances like transitors (one of the most well-known products of squalid-state physicists). I would actually argue a computer, a cell, and life-itself are emergent phenomenon not reducible to ordinary physics and chemistry. Modern science is beginning to deal with the problem of organization (holism) versus pure reductionism, partly because of the discipline of engineering. I elaborated the idea here: Darwinism is a Caricature of Evolutionary Biology
To understand the concept of higher levels of organization, I begin with a down-to-earth example of a public library. Simply speaking, the library is composed of collections of books (and other things), books are composed of chapters, chapters are composed of paragraphs, paragraphs are composed of sentences, sentences are composed of words (and punctuation), words are composed of letters of the alphabet, letters of the alphabet are composed of ink on paper. I gave a description of books basically in terms of what is printed. But even beyond that description, how can we describe the notion of books without the notion of themes and ideas? These are also higher levels of organization, and these levels of organization are especially problematic for materialists. Does it make sense to try to fully understand a library by studying the alphabet? Of course not. Does it make sense to describe the contents of books, their origin and evolution, in terms of the dynamics of how ink is put on paper? Of course not. Pigliucci is subtly criticizing Lynch for making comparable errors in Lynch’s view of evolution. I spoke of books, but let me add one more illustration: spacecrafts. It would be futile to describe spacecrafts merely as conglomerations of atoms (credit Polanyi for that idea). A spacecraft is understood in terms of propulsion, navigation, guidance, control, communications, remote sensing, and a multitude of other “higher levels of organization”. Saying a spacecraft is made of atoms is correct, but the description is deeply incomplete. With this in mind, we can appreciate Pigliucci’s critique of Lynch. Pigliucci alludes to the fact separate fields of study have emerged to study higher levels of organization in biology. Like the various specialized fields in the science of spacecrafts, we now have specialized fields in biology. If anything, biology is infinitely more complex than spacecrafts. Some of these fields are identified with the suffix of “-omics”, such as proteomics. These fields describe higher levels of organization within biology .... For example, regarding “-omics” we hear much of genomics (DNA), but what are the other “-omics”. One important “omic” is proteomics. From wiki:
Proteomics is the large-scale study of proteins, particularly their structures and functions. Proteins are vital parts of living organisms, as they are the main components of the physiological pathways of cells. The term “proteomics” was coined to make an analogy with genomics, the study of the genes. The word “proteome” is a portmanteau of “protein” and “genome”. The proteome of an organism is the set of proteins produced by it during its life, and its genome is its set of genes.
Proteomics is often considered the next step in the study of biological systems, after genomics. It is much more complicated than genomics.
But in addition to genomics and proteomics we have the various other “-omics” transcriptomics, metabolomics, and even phenomics, etc. These scientific displines of "omics" are rooted in ideas about organization, not traditional physics and chemistry. Layers of organization may not be restricted to engineering and biology, but may extend to irreducibly complex phenomenon in the field of squalid-state physics. PS I like that term "squalid-state physics". It suggest something scandalous. :-)scordova
April 12, 2009
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John Davison, Your are misreading a lot of what I am writing to you. I never said gradualism ever did anything. I am just pointing out that Darwin's gradualism is dead and Gould's gradualism is what they are now defending. It will probably die to when enough people scrutinize it.jerry
April 12, 2009
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John Davison, People are suggesting proteins arose by random construction of polymers. Just constructing one each of every proteins of 40-45 amino long would require all the matter in the universe. Obviously an absurdity. I am pointing out that random creation of proteins is extremely unlikely to find a useful protein and and a search of all proteins or even an extremely small set of them is a non starter. So what I am pointing out that the origin of those proteins used in life can not be due to any random creation of them in whatever primordial condition they want to chose. The origin must lie elsewhere.jerry
April 12, 2009
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Tribune wrote: Happy Easter, everybody.
Yes of course! Happy Easter!scordova
April 12, 2009
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JAD, I have read some of your work and find it to be refreshingly clear and easy to understand. I do have an idea though. Why not simply disabuse Darwinists of their fantasies by directing them to the appropriate paper. For example, you could simply tell them that they will find the answer to such and such an objection in "The Evolutionary Manifesto," or in your "Response to Dawkins," or whatever. Just tell them which paper to read and then ask them to get back to you. That way you don't have to repeat yourself. What's wrong with that?StephenB
April 12, 2009
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jerry Sorry but gradualism never had any significant role in the origin of species or of any other taxa. All such origins were instantaneous events exactly as the fossil record shows. What in God's name do mean by exhausting the matter of the universe? That makes no sense at all. Nakashima It is not only population genetics that I reject, it is all of obligatory sexual (Mendelian) reproduction. Of course you would know that if you had read my papers and I wouldn't have to respond to your questions because you wouldn't be asking them. "You can lead a man to the literature but you can't make him read it." John A. Davison You can't make him comprehend it either! I have no intention of repeating material that is freely available both on the side bar here at Uncommon Descent and on my weblog.JohnADavison
April 12, 2009
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ps jerry, here's a nice example of the type of exaptation you describe in action. he third paragraph of the introduction might clarify some things for you: http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.0030166Khan
April 12, 2009
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jerry, you seem to draw a hard line between exaptation and adaptation when none exists. exaptation results in adaptation. it is just a narrower form of adaptation in which the trait under examination existed previously in a different form or performed a different function than it currently does. natural selection is necessary for exaptation and adaptation in general. so in no sense is natural selection "dead."It remains the only way that adaptation can occur (drift might result in adaptation but without at least some selection it is very unlikely).Khan
April 12, 2009
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It is not just the pelagic or any other natural environment that can assist polymerization. There is the finding of useful polymers after such a process starts. As I said above proteins of 40-45 amino acids exhaust the matter of the universe. So how does a small area of a small planet provide enough resources to search for useable proteins and then what makes them useable in such a situation.jerry
April 12, 2009
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Dr Davison, So, do you share with Allan MacNeil a distrust of population genetics? Has that field made too many simplifying assumptions to remain relevant?Nakashima
April 12, 2009
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John Davison, Even the committed atheists and evolutionary biologists admit that Darwin is dead. They are looking towards another explanation. Exaptation not adaptation. The theory in its basic terms says that non coding regions mutate and a very small number of them eventually produce a functional element which is then exapted to some use. The main form of mutation is transposition through reverse transcriptase. So gradualism in the Darwin sense is out but a new form of gradualism is taking hold. That is why the topic of the arbitrary creation of proteins through a transcription and translation process is of interest. What is the likelihood of an arbitrary polymer of amino acids having some function or being able to fold. So Darwin's adaptive gradualism is dead, natural selection exists but is a destructive and conservative force not a creative one and the heart of Darwin is gone. There is no malthusian competition for resources driving change. Only common descent remains which is why now you have people fighting desperately for that. Once that is gone all of Darwin is gone. OOL is related to evolution because most of the abiogenesis theories resort to a competition for resources and a selection process based on some form of fitness. Or a molecular evolution. So while Darwin did separate the two processes, his ideas are dead so why maintain this last bit of charade that what he said means anything. In other words the total problem may come down to how proteins and other functional polymers arise whether before the first cell appeared or afterwards.jerry
April 12, 2009
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06:11 AM
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