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Michael Behe, Eric Anderson, David Chiu, Kirk Durston mentioned favorably in ID-sympathetic Peer-Reviewed Article

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Congratulations to Michael Behe, Eric Anderson, David Chiu, Kirk Durston (members of ISCID). They were mentioned in the peer reviewed journal International Journal of Molecular Sciences. References were made to Darwin’s Black Box by Michael Behe, “Irreducible Comlexity Reduced” in ISCID’s PCID by Eric Anderson, and peer-reviewed works by David Chiu and Kirk Durston.

Here is the paper: The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity

Great paper!

The cause and evolution of complexity are frequently addressed in the literature [10, 134-141]. How complexity relates to life has attracted innumerable papers [6, 142-148]. Systems Biology emphasizes the growing genomic and epigenetic complexity [149-151]. Attempts to deal with Behe’s “irreducible complexity” [152] are appearing more often in scientific literature [153-157].

The much vaunted Avida community is indirectly criticized:

Despite the appealing similarities of terms like “chromosomes,” GA’s have no relevance whatsoever to molecular evolution or gene emergence. Inanimate nature cannot define a fitness function over measures of the quality of representations of solutions. GAs are no model at all of natural process. GA’s are nothing more than multiple layers of abstract conceptual engineering. Like language, we may start with a random phase space of alphabetical symbols. But no meaning or function results without deliberate and purposeful selection of letters out of that random phase space. No abiotic primordial physicodynamic environment could have exercised such programming prowess.

Neither physics nor chemistry can dictate formal optimization, any more than physicality itself generates the formal study of physicality. Human epistemological pursuits are formal enterprises of agent minds. Natural process GAs have not been observed to exist. The GAs of living organisms are just metaphysically presupposed to have originated through natural process. We can liberally employ GAs and so-called evolutionary algorithms for all sorts of productive tasks. But GAs cannot be used to model spontaneous life origin through natural process because GAs are formal.

The OOL community is indirectly criticized. “Choice with intent” might be a stealth phrase for intelligence. “Choice with intent” is required of any agency that creates organization:

Organization ≠ order. Disorganization ≠ disorder. Self-ordering of many kinds occurs spontaneously every day in nature in the absence of any organization. Spontaneous bona fide self-organization, on the other hand, has never been observed.

“Self-organization” is logically a nonsense term. Inanimate objects cannot organize themselves into integrated, cooperative, holistic schemes. Schemes are formal, not physical. To organize requires choice contingency, not just chance contingency and law-like necessity. Sloppy definitions lead to fallacious inferences, especially to category errors. Organization requires 1) decision nodes, 2) steering toward a goal of formal function, 3) algorithmic optimization, 4) selective switch-setting to achieve integration of a circuit, 5) choice with intent.

The only entity that logically could possibly The only entity that logically could possibly be considered to organize itself is an agent. But not even an agent self-organizes. Agents organize things and events in their lives. They do not organize their own molecular biology, cellular structure, organs and organ systems. Agents do not organize their own being. Agents do not create themselves.
…
We will point to hundreds of peer-reviewed papers with “self-organization” in their titles. But when all of these papers are carefully critiqued with a proper scientific skepticism, our embarrassment only grows with each exposure of the blatant artificial selection that was incorporated into each paper’s experimental design. Such investigator involvement is usually readily apparent right within Materials and Methods of the paper.

passing mention of macro evolution is made:

Linear digital prescription in physical nucleic acid has thus far invariably been associated with life. A fully post modern anthropocentrism cannot argue a logically consistent macroevolutionary paradigm.

the conclusion:

To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it:

“Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut [9]: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.”

HT: chunkdz at Telic Thoughts

Notes:

1. “choice is the defining feature of intelligence” — William Dembski

2. The relationship of “choice” versus “chance and necessity” as well as the relationship of “choice” and “intelligence” was discussed peripherally at UD here: Cosmological ID in 1744?

3. The only mention of Darwin in this paper was in the title of with Behe’s book and in sentences with words like “confused”.

Comments
One might also ask why Gould's model of evolution appears to be closer to reality than the one at the heart of the "modern synthesis". One answer would be that, as a paleontologist rather than a "bean counter" (Mayr's term for theoretical population geneticists), Gould was a committed empiricist. That is, he based his model on actual physical evidence, rather than abstract mathematical models. It is, of course, impossible to do theoretical population genetics using fossils (G. G. Simpson notwithstanding), and so Gould and other paleontologists (such as Eldredge, Stanley, and Vrba) were and are not "seduced by the dark side of the Force (of theoretical modeling)". The same is true for field ecologists (like my good friend Harry Greene) and other naturalists, who (like paleontologists) are constrained by the actual physical stuff they study to ground their models in reality.Allen_MacNeill
April 11, 2009
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And where are the responses to the challeneges I presented on this thread to the Darwinain hoax? Where are the new species with their known ancestors? Where is there evidence that any creature now extant is capable of leaving ancestors fundamentaly different from itself? Where is there any evidence for the Darwiniann fairy tale? I will tell you where - nowhere, that's where. It was never anything but a pipe dream. "Silence is golden." Thomas CarlyleJohnADavison
April 11, 2009
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Sal in #285: Your discussion of Fisher's fundamental theorem of natural selection highlights one of the most important ways in which Fisher's assumptions do not model reality and are therefore of limited value for analyzing how evolution happens in real poulations. For Fisher's theorem to work, one must assume that there is no linkage between alleles at all (this is also necessary for Wright's original theory of genetic drift). That is, alleles undergoing positive selection (i.e. increasing in frequency) are not linked in chromosomes with alleles undergoing neutral or negative selection. However, we know this is contrary to the underlying biology of chromosomes and DNA. That is, genes are linked together, and so the possibility for genetic "hitchhiking" is very large. If two different genes are located on the same chromosome (and especially if there is no chiasma/recombinatory "hot spot" in between them), they will be inherited together, regardless of the selection acting against each of them separately. This means that linkage groups (i.e. chromosomes) should be considered as whole units, not separately, but the latter is the only way that genetic evolution can be modeled using Fisher's mathematical formalisms. Furthermore, and contrary to one of the basic premises of the "modern synthesis", selection does not (indeed, cannot) act against single alleles, or even single chromosomes. Selection (or, to be more precise, the prerequisite mechanisms of selection – variation, inheritance, and fecundity) acts at the level of individual phenotypes, and many alleles (especially selectively neutral alleles) "go along for the ride". This is why Stephen Jay Gould's view of biological evolution is in many ways superior to the one at the heart of the "modern synthesis", and why evolutionary theory as a whole is slowly (and sometimes painfully) moving closer to Gould's model of evolution.Allen_MacNeill
April 11, 2009
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Incidentally folks, creative evolution is finished with not a new genus in two million years and probably not a new verifiable species in historical times. Extinction is all that remains. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohnADavison
April 11, 2009
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For some reason my "Why banishment?" thread cannot be read. I wonder why. Naturally, I suspect chicanery but that won't surprise anyone I am sure.JohnADavison
April 11, 2009
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http://jadavison.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/why-banishment/#comments # 475. There is no point in trying to post it here because it will be deleted by blogczar Sal.JohnADavison
April 11, 2009
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Nakashima-san, I forgot to express my thanks for you pointing this out:
I think if you go to Sayama-sensei’s Evoloops site, you can see some movies of evoloop OOL and evolution of new species.
Thank you!scordova
April 10, 2009
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As you noted, if the only selection pressure is raw metabolism, things get simpler instead of more complicated.
Actually selection pressure for raw metabolism might only have to be stronger, not necessarily the only pressure for simplicity to be the final outcome. It follows from Fisher's Fundamental Theorem of Natural selection that diversity will be reduced. For example, let us say we have two favorable traits: Trait A: Intelligence Trait B: Speed It is possible that a faster creature will out-compete an intelligent creature and thus an otherwise good trait(intelligence) is sacrificed in favor of another good trait (speed). This is called interference selection. Ideally the traits will blend rather than one being snuffed out, but this happens only if the selection pressures are comparable and/or sufficiently weak. The irony is that strong selection pressure might actually damage the ability of natural selection to construct something! So if pressure for metabolism is sufficiently stronger over other pressures, this pressure could wipe out the favorable benefit of more complex traits. The case of cavefish is an example. The ability to see would generally be regarded as useful, but selection for metabolism thwarts maintenance of an otherwise useful trait. My personal speculation is that selection may do good but it also does a lot of harm to the human genome (one example is sickle cell anemia). As far as whether selection operated in the past to create complexity is an open question. We could consider whether selection is increasing complexity in the present day. Are their new proteins? Well, maybe single-nucleotide novelties such as Nylonase. Beyond such small nucleotide changes, I personally believe that the number of unique proteins is actually decreasing quite rapidly especially because of extinction. It would appear that nature is under no obligation to favor the maintenance of complexity, it does not prevent man, natural disasters, or any other agency from creating extinction. Further, these extinctions for the most part appear non-Darwinian. The idea is that the less fit creatures die, but it appears that extinction for the most part is more a product of bad luck than bad genes. I pointed out that there is a general misconception that the fittest survive. See: Gambler's ruin is Darwin's Ruin. If we had the power to do so, I suppose we could catalogue all the existing proteins and estimate whether the number is decreasing or increasing. I speculate the number is rapidly decreasing. I don't know how we might possible test the hypothesis through sampling rather than being exhuasive, but that would be a worthy exploration. I have a personal interest in seeing empirical exploration of the hypothesis of Genetic Entropy by one of the world's top Genetic Engineers from Cornell. The hypothesis might be empirically testable as DNA sequencing technogies become cheaper (such as Solexa and Illumina technologies). If the Genetic Entropy is correct, and if the number of proteins in the world is rapidly decreasing (such as must be the case in the Amazon rain forrest), then that would lend support to Abel's hypothesis that it is improbable for new proteins to evolve.scordova
April 10, 2009
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Mr Cordova, I think if you go to Sayama-sensei's Evoloops site, you can see some movies of evoloop OOL and evolution of new species. As you noted, if the only selection pressure is raw metabolism, things get simpler instead of more complicated. I think the same thing occurs in Tierra simulations when parasites appear, and get smaller over time. So to me an interesting question is - have there been other necessary pressures (or environmental context) operating on Earth to drive complexity higher? I'm sorry I can't participate more fully in the conversation. It is like being at a party where there are many loud conversations going on at once.Nakashima
April 10, 2009
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The question is "why Abel would support the distinction between OOL (chemical evolution) and Darwinian evolution?" It appears the distinction actually argues against naturalistic evolution of life. He tries to argue that natural selection cannot be appealed to as a mechanism in OOL, therefore, one is only left with chance and necessity. The task of arguing against naturalistic OOL is easier if one invokes only chance and necessity and is not burdened with issues of natural selection.scordova
April 10, 2009
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I’ve commented several times that I don’t think that the OOL is actually a question of evolutionary biology. After all, “biology” requires life as a pre-requisite, right?”
How convenient, and ridiculous.
But to be fair, the separation of Darwinian Evolution and OOL was suggested by Abel himself in his quotation of Chang
'Chemical evolution' should not be confused with Darwinian evolution with its requirements for reproduction, mutation and natural selection. These did not occur before the development of the first living organism, and so chemical evolution and Darwinian evolution are quite different processes. David Abel quoting Chang page 267
scordova
April 10, 2009
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"I’ve commented several times that I don’t think that the OOL is actually a question of evolutionary biology. After all, “biology” requires life as a pre-requisite, right?" How convenient, and ridiculous. It may be more ridiculous than convenient, but then again, it may be more convenient than ridiculous. On that point we can be certain; it’s a very, very fine line. In any case, the toner must have been out on the mimeograph machine. I am almost certain I’ve come across an evolutionary biologist who claimed that chance and necessity did it. Hell, perhaps all of them do. Has anyone ever done a poll? Does biology require biology, so materialist ideologues don’t have to address the issue?Upright BiPed
April 10, 2009
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For the reader's benefit, Will Provine at Cornell was Allen MacNeil's good friend and mentor. Phil Johnson has been widely viewed as the father of modern ID. In that regard, some of my intellectual heritage traces to Phil Johnson. Both Phil Johnson and Will Provine have debated each other. They refer to each other as good friends (even in their video taped debates). I see no reason that Allen and I have to treat each other as sworn enemies in light of the example that Phil Johnson and Will Provine have given us.scordova
April 10, 2009
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My quarrel is with you shabby tactics.
That's fine, John, but this thread isn't the place to quarrel about my behavior. This thread is about Abel's paper.
I don’t give a fig about Abel or the subject of this thread
That's obvious John, so the question is why then comment about me on a thread about Abel's paper? Wow, after 275 posts, this is your first mention of the Abel.
you have abused that position by the manner you have allied yoyrself with a devout Darwinian
I consider Allen my friend. His views about ID or anything else do not automatically disqualify him from being my friend.
and treated this scientist with the utmost contempt.
Perhaps the unkind thing to do is to let your intemperate remarks continue to be posted for all to see.scordova
April 10, 2009
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People who don't care about the topics of threads should go away and not come back. Staying here to simply fling invective is pointless, demeaning, and discourteous.Allen_MacNeill
April 10, 2009
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In #270 Sal wrote:
"Yockey (no friend of ID) thinks the answer to OOL lies outside empirical science."
Me, too. I've commented several times that I don't think that the OOL is actually a question of evolutionary biology. After all, "biology" requires life as a pre-requisite, right? And Darwin never even hinted at a mechanism ("warm, little ponds" are not a mechanism, they're just a setting; like the difference between a plot and a backstory). Even if it is possible to "create" life in a laboratory, there is absolutely no guarantee that that is how it happened in nature. Like the old joke says, "Very interesting, but that's not the way I did it" - God ;-)Allen_MacNeill
April 10, 2009
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So much for my suggestion above.David Kellogg
April 10, 2009
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My quarrel is with you shabby tactics .I don't give a fig about Abel or the subject of this thread. I think you should be deprived of you position as "author" because you have abused that position by the manner you have allied yoyrself with a devout Darwinian and treated this scientist with the utmost contempt. Got that Sal? Write that down!JohnADavison
April 10, 2009
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MacNeill is a devout Darwinian and Scordova makes DaveScot look like Shirley Temple.
But even if true, John, what relevance has this to the questions David Abel has raised? Your objections here are derailing an otherwise productive discussion. Not to mention you said in Comment 222:
You now have my permission to continue deleting every new message I present without a word of explanation.
So perhaps I'm preventing you from making intemperate remarks that you'll later regret. I point the readers to your weblog: JADavison.wordpress.com. I see you posted a thread, and then let loose with about 500 responses to something you said. Isn't that monologue a bit monotonous John? In any case if you can relate Shirley Temple, DaveScot, myself to Abel's paper, your comments are welcome. The only thing slowing me down from exercising the permission to delete your comments (permission that you granted), is the fact Allen would like others to hear what you have to say. So please stay on topic. Whether Allen MacNeill or I are vile scoundrels is irrelevant to the question of ID. See: Scoundrel? Scoundrel…I like the sound of that, and you'll understand why your objections to people's actions and character are largly irrelevant to the topic of ID.scordova
April 10, 2009
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Get this folks. Scordova has asked MacNeill for MacNeill's permission before Scordova intends to let Davison continue here. Is it any wonder that have described them as the dynamic duo? It is hard to believe isn't it? In the meantime, Scordova has deleted the vast majority of my comments which were directed not at individuals but at the Darwinian fairy tale. It is not my fault that MacNeill is a devout Darwinian and if you don't believe me just visit his weblog and see for yourself. And while you are there check the links he lists on the side bar. I already sent that here but it was promptly deleted. You will find it with every other message "blogczar Scordova" has deleted. Scordova makes DaveScot look like Shirley Temple. Now delete this one too Sal.JohnADavison
April 10, 2009
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Allen, I prefer John Davison refrain from his complaints too but he does have some interesting things to say in some of his papers. One of them is the Blind Alley thesis that evolution has essentially stopped. https://uncommondescent.com/dr-john-davison-biologist/a-blind-alley/ Maybe when things have quieted down, this seem like an interesting topic to pursue. It is loaded with facts and reasoning. And it flows from the same assessment you have made that Darwinian evolution is dead as a theory. John thinks a different mechanism is responsible than what you have espoused. It would be interesting to compare the two.jerry
April 10, 2009
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As an FYI: One does not need DNA changes in order to facilitate radical changes in body plans. The following link has pictures of two body plans created by one set of DNA. See the photo of "how one genome can create two proteomes" here: Michael Lynch: Darwinism is a caricature of evolutionary biology. I think creationists are too quick to rule out macro-evolution. First of all theology is not science, and secondly, I'm not so sure, even granting the "Genesis kinds" that all forms of macro evolution are ruled out. Here is a dyed-in-the wool Young Earth Creationist by the name of Chris Ashcraft supporting at least the some of the mechanisms of variation which Allen listed: Evoluion: God's Greatest Creation and What's Driving Evolution Mutation or Genetic Recombination Allen lists these as:
Genetic Recombination 28) the exchange of non-identical genetic material between two or more individuals (i.e. sex) 29) lateral gene transfer via plasmids and episomes (especially in prokaryotes) 30) crossing-over (reciprocal and non-reciprocal) between sister chromatids in meiosis 31) crossing-over (non-reciprocal) between sister chromatids in mitosis 32) Mendelian independent assortment during meiosis 33) hybridization
Chis Ashcraft writes:
Genetic recombination is not random. Offspring survival following genetic recombination is just short of 100% among all sexually reproducing organism substantiating these reaction as highly controlled and specific. We can also not predict the ability of these reactions to modify an organism.
This sort of variation is circumstantially evidence of ID, but not direct. However, if Ashcraft is correct that the variation is not "random with respect to fitness" than the variation might not be the sort that Darwin envisioned. Allen would be in a better position to comment on this than I however. Finally, to throw more monkey wrenches into the discussion, DNA does not even need to change to create extreme phenotypic variation. The book Developmental Plasticity lists the astonishing changes accomplished independent of DNA. All these considerations to me suggest why the question of OOL is so central to ID. If even ID proponents and some creationists can accept some macro evolution, then where and when is the actual ID?. I would argue that the question of OOL is the best place to argue a circumstantial case for ID, at least for now. I don't think the ID issues are quite so clean cut for macro-evolution.scordova
April 10, 2009
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There are to be more twists to the question of variation and intelligent design. At least one very well-respected scientist at U-Chicago proposes a supposed third alternative: intelligent creatures re-engineering themselves. See: Who are the (multiple) designers? James Shapiro offers some compelling answers
Is there only one Designer of life or are their multiple designers? Here is James Shapiro’s take: Bacteria are small but not stupid: Cognition, natural genetic engineering, and sociobacteriology
Bacteria as natural genetic engineers…. This remarkable series of observations requires us to revise basic ideas about biological information processing and recognize that even the smallest cells are sentient beings.
In the case of engineered products we often might think of designers (plural) versus a designer (singular). It may be that some Ultimate Intelligence created the universe and (by way of extension) engineers. But even for those of us who accept that there is an Ultimate Intelligence, it is not customary to say that God made automobiles and airplanes and genetically engineered food. Can we find proximal sources of intelligent design of life without appealing directly to the Ultimate Intelligence? Even though I personally believe God was the Ultimate Creator of the universe and hence even the creator of the Wright Brothers, I generally still identify airplanes as the proximal intelligent design of the Wright Brothers. A similar issue may arise in identifying the Designer or designers of life on Earth
So the issue of ID is more complex than one supposes. How does all this relate to OOL? Even granting that bacteria can re-engineer themselves and that there are mutations capable of inducing body plan evolution, how much ID would be needed for the first life? Darwin didn't even really touch upon that question, but OOL is one the focus of ID proponents of all stripes. Darwin, perhaps under some duress, wrote in the 6th edition:
the first creature, the progenitor of innumerable extinct and living descendants, was created Charles Darwin
To be fair, that quote may not represent what Darwin really believed. However, the focus on the question of OOL is whether the first life had to be created. My understanding is that Abel's partner, Jack Trevors (an atheist) simply leaves the question open. Yockey (no friend of ID) thinks the answer to OOL lies outside empirical science. I would speculate Abel's views are similar to Trevors and Yockey, he is reluctant to commit to ideas that are formally un-provable. Myself, I'm willing to accept a circumstantial inference to intelligent design (even if formally unprovable), but that is just me, and that is not necessarily science formally defined.scordova
April 10, 2009
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if ID actually happens at all (I believe that this is an open question, BTW), it will almost certainly do so via alterations in one or more of the listed mechanisms of phenotypic variation.
There is a spectrum of thought in the ID community:
1. special creation 2. front loaded variation 3. extra terrestrial ID 4. directed natural selection
I personally accept some combination of the first two. At least two authors at UD had been sympathetic to extra-terrestrials. The others accept either front loading, special creation, directed natural selection, or simply leave the matter open. I think the objection is valid that direct empirical evidence of these hypothesis may not be accessible to empriical science even if true. The most that can be done is to argue a circumstantial case. The segment of the ID community that accept pre-programmed variation have put forward various hypotheses:
1. Front Loaded Evolution (various like Mike Gene, possibly including Behe) 2. Prescribed Evolution (Davison) 3. Directed Evolution (Denton)
I myself have argued that a very large degree of variation may be pre-programemd. See: Marsupials and Placentals: a case of front-loaded, pre-programmed, designed evolution? There are a segment of creationists who think there was a large amount of front loaded evolution. So the once simple camps of "special creation of fixed species" and "Darwinian evolution via common descent" has been blurred considerably now. Even myself, being a creationist, I would be reluctant to be too critical of mutational mechanisms. I think there are large degrees of phynotypic variation possible. Perhaps the most astonishing variation is that found in butterflies and moths. We basically see to radically different body plans in one creature's lifetime!!!! You have a walking creature basically sprouting wings! In light of such astonishing transformations, I think caution on the part of creationists is in order. We really don't know how fixed species may have been! One area where there seems to be agreement among all the ID camps is the difficulty in the origin of life. It seems this is where there is the most accessible knowledge and observation as far as actually trying to observe life spontaneously emerge. Hence, there is an abundance of papers and books such as those by Abel, and far less about organic evolution and supposed mechanisms. I've suggested if any succeed in being able to trigger or re-create the supposed placental/mammalian divergence (if such a thing realy happened), they would be famous forever.scordova
April 10, 2009
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Sal: I agree that I was a little harsh in that last comment, but there are limits even to the patience of a long-time Friend. And please rest assured, I will not respond any further to anyone who attacks my character, but will to the best of my ability defend what I believe (on the basis of the evidence) to be the case. And please, if you think that it would help to maintain focus on the issue at hand, delete this comment. I will completely understand, and drop the issue forthwith. BTW, I think you have handled this whole situation as well as it could be handled under the circumstances. Hannah and I had the same kind of problem when we were collaborating in the Evolution-Design seminar. We had worked out a system by which we each moderated the comments of people on our own "side". Sadly, I found myself moderating many more evolution supporters than she did ID supporters. I say "sadly", because I honestly found that the EB supporters were often much more disrespectful and disruptive than the ID supporters (such as yourself). Maybe, if we can continue to respect the tradition of academic collegiality, we can finally get closer to an understanding of just how these fascinating and puzzling things actually happen. 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished!Allen_MacNeill
April 10, 2009
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In comment #254 gpuccio wrote:
Dr. McNeill’s “mechanisms” are a complete enigma for me. I can’t see how any of them is a mechanism, in the sense of an explanatory model.
The list of mechanisms located at http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2007/10/rm-ns-creationist-and-id-strawman.html were not intended as a list of mechanisms for either evolution or natural selection. On the contrary, they were (and are) intended as a list of the mechanisms that have been shown (through repeated empirical investigation) to cause variations in phenotypes. I honestly do not think that anyone on this thread would like to argue that the mechanisms listed are not capable of causing such changes, nor that the changes they can cause can be quite significant. As I have pointed out repeatedly (and as many ID supporters have agreed), if ID actually happens at all (I believe that this is an open question, BTW), it will almost certainly do so via alterations in one or more of the listed mechanisms of phenotypic variation. Furthermore, given that much is already known about many of these mechanisms, it should be possible (and certainly will be possible in the near future) to examine the patterns of variation produced by these mechanisms using widely accepted methods of statistical analysis. The results of such analysis should lend credence to one side or the other of the EB v ID debate, and I for one would like to see the outcome to such a resolution.
"Dr. McNeill [1] just says: that can happen, but never explains why that should happen or how likely it is that it happen."
That's because it's a list, not an encyclopedia. You can copy each of the mechanisms listed and paste them into Google or Wikipedia and get a reasonably good idea of how they work and how they relate to the overall question of phenotypic variation. I intend to do this eventually, by converting each of the listed mechanisms into a hotlink to relevant explanations. That will take time, however, as I am currently working on four books, two research projects, and a series of videos on the "Darwinian revolutions" for Cornell's CyberTower program (while teaching my three courses at Cornell and getting ready to teach three more this summer). gpuccio then goes on to critique a specific mechanism from the list:
"4) Changes in promoter or terminator sequences (increasing or decreasing binding)
Well, what does that mean? What is the cause of those changes? I suppose the same as point 1) (single point mutations), or 2) (deletion and insertion (“frame shift”) mutations), or 3) (inversion and translocation mutations)."
It is not the case that changes in promoter and/or terminator binding necessarily involve point mutations, deletion or insertion (“frame shift”) mutations, or inversion and/or translocation mutations. On the contrary, changes in promoter and/or terminator binding (i.e. binding by activator or inhibitor proteins or signaling molecules) can happen without any kind of genetic mutations whatsoever. As just one example, recent research has shown that the diet consumed by a pregnant mouse can significantly alter the expression of the genes in her offspring in utero, and that such changes are heritable among her affected offspring. To give a specific example, a diet high in lysine (or some other methylated amino acids) can alter the expression of an allele called "agouti" in such a way as to produce offspring with markedly different phenotypic characteristics distributed over multiple anatomical and physiological characteristics (see http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v23/n3/abs/ng1199_314.html ) We are only just beginning to investigate the myriad ways in which alteration of gene expression (with or without concomitant genetic changes) can alter phenotypes, and how rapidly such changes can occur, and to what extent they alter phenotypes (and to be heritable via various mechanisms). Again, if one is interested in verifying that some kind of ID exists, investigating these kinds of mechanisms might very well bear fruit. The only way to find out would be to do the hard, slogging, tedious labor of actually doing the empirical testing. Until this has been done, arguments about what can and can't happen are certainly premature (and in my opinion constitute a failure of both imagination and faith in the generally accepted methods of doing science). [1] Point of information: I am simply Allen MacNeill. I hold no doctoral level degree from any university (yet; I'm working on it). Like Charles Darwin, I'm just "Mr." Allen MacNeill. Personally, I prefer to let my arguments speak for themselves, and avoid any "arguments via authority".Allen_MacNeill
April 10, 2009
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Allen, That was a bit harsh, but I'm trusting we will henceforth try to talk about the topics at hand. If you wish to allow more of JDavison's participation here, that can be arranged. But as you can see, these sort of flame wars have a way to destroying discussion of the topics at hand. Anyway, thank you for engaging in this discussion.. For what it's worth, the irony is that you and Dr. Davison were among the few professors to ever teach ID related courses at the University level. You at Cornell and Dr. Davison at University of Vermont. Salscordova
April 10, 2009
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Please do not banish John A Davison from either this thread or this website. Nothing anyone could write could be more illustrative of his complete lack of respect for civility, courtesy, or the ancient traditions of the academy than the virtual lack of actual content in his numerous, pointless, increasingly maniacal rants. Everyone here should now be aware of the "quality" of his arguments and the "depth" of his character. Let his own words stand as an admonition to the rest of us. I will say no more about him from this point on, nor will I ever again respond to anything he posts, except for outright lies. I recommend that the rest of you do the same, regardless of which side of this debate you are on. There are limits to tolerance, but no limit whatsoever to stupidity.
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" - Friedrich von Schiller
Allen_MacNeill
April 10, 2009
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Scordova has become an arrogant tyrant who rules his thread with an iron fist.
Even granting that is true, what does that have to do with Abel's paper?scordova
April 10, 2009
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As a courtesy to Dr. Davison, here is a link to Dr. Davison's weblog. Readers interested in what Dr. Davison has to say can read it straight from the source: JDavison.wordpress.com Derailing of a discussion that UD is hosting about David Abel's paper is an infringement on our ability to have a discussion in the way we choose. Discussion of David Abel's work and that of Kirk Durston, David Chiu, Eric Anderson, and Michael Behe is being drowned out by sideshows. This is one of the few times and places that this information can be discussed on the net. Yet this discussion is at risk of being spammed into oblivion by posting whose main intent are to make complaints about me and Allen MacNeill. I have now provided the readers a place where they can read all about those complaints from Dr. Davison. Dr. Davison is invited to say something of scientific substance pertaining to David Abel's paper. Even peripherally related topics such as platonic forms is admissible. Direct and lengthy postings about people's character is unproductive in the defense or criticism of ID.scordova
April 10, 2009
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