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More on Emergent Poofery

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This morning I looked up into the sky and saw several hundred geese flying in a formation that appeared to be a single undulating mass. It reminded me of the schools of silver fish I have seen while diving in the Caribbean that also seem to move as a single mass (those who have seen Finding Nemo know what I am talking about).

These bird and fish behaviors along with hurricanes are often used by materialists to demonstrate the idea of “emergence.” When the “whole” of a given phenomenon appears to have properties that are more complex than its constituents, the whole is said to be an “emergent property” of the constituents. With that in mind, here is a question:

Which of these things is not like the others with respect to “emergence”?

A. A flock of birds
B. A hurricane
C. A school of fish
D. Subjective self-awareness

If you picked “D. Consciousness” give yourself a star. The standard emergentist view of consciousness goes like this: The electro-chemical processes in the brain evolve in complexity, and at some unspecified point in that evolution consciousness arises. Thus mental events “supervene” on physical events, which means that subjective self-awareness is an “emergent property of” the sophisticated electro-chemical system in the brains of higher animals.

Why is this emergentist account obviously different in principal than emergentist accounts of flocks of birds, hurricanes and schools of fish? The answer lies with our old friend vera causa, also known as the principle of sufficient reason. Under this principle, you can’t just say X causes Y unless you are prepared to demonstrate the causal link between X and Y. Astrology is a classic example of the violation of this principle. An astrologer says the stars and planets are aligned in a particular way, and that alignment causes X phenomenon (e.g., you will get a promotion at work). Of course, there is absolutely no causal relationship whatsoever between the alignment of stars and planets and whether your boss is going to promote you, and therefore astrology violates the principle of sufficient reason.

How does the emergent “explanation” of subjective self-awareness violate the principle of sufficient reason? For any given proposition, the principle is expressed this way:

For every proposition P, if P is true, then there is a sufficient explanation for why P is true.

We can see how this principle is in operation with respect to birds, fish and wind:

Birds: Birds instinctively fly in formation; when those formations are sufficiently large the birds move in response to various inputs, including primarily the strength of the wind, and collectively those movements result in the phenomenon. We might not know all of the details, but we can see how in principle the movement of the birds could result in the formation.

Fish: Same as birds.

Hurricane: Hurricanes are examples of weather, and we have a fairly good understanding of the causes of weather, including temperature, barometric pressure, etc. We can see how, in principle, those factors can combine to cause the phenomenon called a hurricane.

Conversely, we can see how the principle is not in operation with respect to subjective self-awareness. As Thomas Nagel has said the “mental” is fundamentally different from the “physical.” The burden is therefore on those advancing an emergentist theory of consciousness to explain how “physical” events can cause “mental” events. So far, no one has brought forth even plausible speculations about how this could happen. This is not surprising because it should be clear that the mental is not in fact reducible to the physical, which means that reductionist accounts of consciousness are not, in principle, plausible.

For every proposition P [consciousness is an “emergent property” of the brain system] , if P is true, then there is a sufficient explanation for why P is true.  Until materialists come up with a sufficient explanation for why the mental can, in principle, be linked causally with the physical, the “emergent property” explanation is more like astrology than astronomy.  While it purports to be an explanation, it in fact gives no reason to believe why X causes Y.  It is a confession of ignorance disguised as an explanation, a fancy of way of saying nothing but “Poof! It happened.”

 

 

 

 

Comments
I can destroy consciousness with chemical (materialist) means, physical (materialist) means, electromagnetic (materialist) means. What undisputed examples are there of being baked to destroy consciousness by non materialist means? I didn't think so. Fail.gmilling
November 21, 2014
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Notice how keiths is all over the map. HE can't back up his claims about consciousness and so shifts to debating the soul. There's nothing in the OP about a soul, and Barry says nothing in either of his posts in this thread about a soul (other than in a quote of keiths), but keiths wants to talk body/soul dualism. Just weird.Mung
November 21, 2014
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keiths:
I’m surprised that Christians such as you and vjtorley are attracted to hylomorphic dualism.
But why?
My aim in this essay is not to defend Cartesian dualism. Rather, it is to set out the groundwork for the sort of dualism that gets little attention and that, if any form of dualism is defensible, is by far the best candidate. It is called "hylemorphic dualism," and is the dualism of Aristotle and the Aristotelians, most notably St. Thomas Aquinas and his followers. - Hylemorphic Dualism by David Oderberg
c.f.: Vallicella on hylemorphic dualism keiths:
For most Christians, the separability of the soul from the body is an important concept...Yet under hylomorphic dualism, the soul is just the form of the body, and so presumably not separable.
And yet Christians have been and continue to be "hylomorpic dualists."Mung
November 21, 2014
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In the second line of the penultimate paragraph, 'too sharp' should read, 'not too sharp.' Pot meet kettle.Axel
November 21, 2014
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@Aleta #46 Pending gpuccio's post, Aleta, I'll presume to give you my own £002, for what its worth. When our body dies, our soul and spirit are scarcely aware of it, indeed, according to the near-death experiences of many people, not until several seconds later, as they look down on their currently dead body. The soul comprises - I won't say consists, because I don't know if it has any other, lesser faculties - the memory, will and understanding; our spirit, on the other hand, is just that, our spirit that had somehow inhabited our body, and according to NDEs continues to roughly approximate its outline - although when appearing as ghosts to the living, appearing a facsimile of their fully-fleshed out and clothed, living selves. This can be easily extrapolated from Christian scripture. Very succinctly in the Virgin Mary's Magnificat: 'My soul glorifies the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my saviour; the one, active, the other, passive. Animals, also appear to have a soul and a spirit, although their soul is more limited than ours, in that they don't have free will; at least not as we know it. Household pets seem, after all, more than glorified computers and have distinct personalities. I read a post online on which a woman said that her recently-deceased cat used to appear to her when she was in the kitchen cooking. But with its characteristically quirky sense of humour, it used to stand just half-way through the wall between the kitchen and the adjoining room, looking at her. I've heard it said of other animals, too, and it is surely the case. Personality seems to require some sort of soul, which is why people who think computers will take over the world are too sharp. I strongly suspect that the soul of an animal would not be an effective substitute for that of a human observer in the Double Slit experiment.Axel
November 21, 2014
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“There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon… Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions… We are swimming in an ocean of light.”' All random chance, BA. All random chance.Axel
November 21, 2014
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Aleta at 46. of related interest, At the 17:38 minute mark of the following video, several experiments that show that some animals have a transcendent component to their being that is able to sense what the owner's intentions are are gone over (reptile pets demonstrated no transcendent connection to their owners). The Mind Is Not The Brain - Scientific Evidence - Rupert Sheldrake - (Referenced Notes) - video http://vimeo.com/33479544 What is interesting in the preceding video is that, at the 25:00 minute mark of the video, Sheldrake speaks of a well known skeptic that he invited to replicate his experiment for dogs. The results of the skeptic revealed the same pattern of ‘extended mind’ that Sheldrake had consistently witnessed for dogs, but the well known skeptic refused to accept the possibility that mind had anything to do with the results and tried to postulate another cause. Sad! ,,, Jaytee: A dog who knew when his owner was coming home - video https://vimeo.com/81150973 Book: Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home: http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-That-Their-Owners-Coming/dp/0307885968bornagain77
November 21, 2014
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corrected link: Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…” – Jeffery Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/beyondbelief/experts-death-experience/story?id=14221154#.T_gydvW8jbIbornagain77
November 21, 2014
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And as with the tunnel to a higher dimension, and the 'eternity of time', we also have many testimonies from near death experiences of being in a body of light during the Near Death Experience:
Coast to Coast – Vicki’s Near Death Experience (Blind From Birth) part 1 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y Quote from preceding video: ‘I was in a body and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head. It had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And ‘it’ was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.’ -
Of related interest: If scientists want to find the source for the 'supernatural' light which made the “3D – photographic negative” image on the Shroud I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE’s) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright ‘Light’ or ‘Being of Light’ who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before.
Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…” – Jeffery Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively http://abcnews.go.com/Nightlin....._gydvW8jbI “Suddenly, I was enveloped in this brilliant golden light. The light was more brilliant that the light emanating from the sun, many times more powerful and radiant than the sun itself. Yet, I was not blinded by it nor burned by it. Instead, the light was a source of energy that embraced my being.” Ned Dougherty’s – Fast Lane To Heaven – Quoted from “To Heaven and Back” pg. 71 – Mary C. Neal MD
Moreover, there is now evidence from quantum mechanics to support a 'soul', but what I've listed thus far is enough for now. Verses and Music:
1 John 1:5-7 “This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.” Acts 26:13-15 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Toby Mac (In The Light) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0
bornagain77
November 21, 2014
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That the soul is separable from the temporal body is a question that is no longer confined to philosophical discussion but is a question that empirical science can now also address. First, in addressing this question of the existence of the soul may be able to live past the death of our temporal bodies, it is important to first note that matter can never go the speed of light. Regardless of how much energy we pour into a particle of matter, we can never ‘push’ the particle of matter to the higher dimension of the speed of light:
Question: If a particle with rest-mass were to, in theory, travel at the speed of light, would its mass actually be infinite, or just very, very, very, large, just like it would supposedly take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate the particle to the speed of light in the first place? How can you calculate this? Answer 4: A particle with non-zero rest-mass cannot be accelerated to the speed of light. Put in other terms, the energy of a moving particle with rest-mass m equals E=(r-1)mc2, where the factor r=1/sqrt(1-(v/c)2), with v the speed of the particle and c the speed of light. You can use this formula in an Excel sheet to try different values of rest-mass m and speed v. This equation tells you that you need an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a particle to (exactly) the speed of light, however, you can always take it to, say 99.99999% the speed of light with a finite (but huge) amount of energy. http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1571 “By special relativity, the energy needed to accelerate a particle (with mass) grow super-quadratically when the speed is close to c, and is infinite when it is c. Since you can’t supply infinite energy to the particle, it is not possible to get (a particle with mass) to 100% c.”
The reason why there is such a sharp division between the temporal realm of mass and the eternal realm of energy is that energy is of a higher dimensional value than matter is. To illustrate this ‘higher dimensional’ point for energy/light, please note what happens at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light,,
"Seeing Relativity" - Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ (Of note: This preceding video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.)
It is also important to note higher dimensions would be invisible to our physical 3 Dimensional sight. The reason why ‘higher dimensions’ are invisible to our 3D vision is best illustrated by ‘Flatland’:
Dr. Quantum in Flatland – 3D in a 2D world – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4
It is also important to point out that time is 'eternal', not temporal, at the speed of light:
“I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest – 2005 “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12
To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.
Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video https://vimeo.com/93101738
It is also very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, eternal, framework for time, found in special relativity (and also in general relativity), finds corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies:
‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video https://vimeo.com/92172680
The tunnel to a higher dimension, as shown in the 'seeing relativity' video, is also noted in Near death experiences:
“I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.” Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video https://vimeo.com/79072924 “Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.” Mary C. Neal, MD – To Heaven And Back pg. 71
Where this gains traction in discussions about the soul is that it is now found that humans are 'beings of light':
Are humans really beings of light? Excerpt: “We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light.”,,, “There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon… Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions… We are swimming in an ocean of light.” http://viewzone2.com/dna.html
You can see an actual picture of humans emitting 'biophotonic' light here:
Strange! Humans Glow in Visible Light - Charles Q. Choi - July 22, 2009 Schematic illustration of experimental setup that found the human body, especially the face, emits visible light in small quantities that vary during the day. B is one of the test subjects. The other images show the weak emissions of visible light during totally dark conditions. The chart corresponds to the images and shows how the emissions varied during the day. The last image (I) is an infrared image of the subject showing heat emissions. http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/006/481/original/090722-body-glow-02.jpg?1296086873
Moreover, this light coming from the human body is found to a emitted by a quantum process, it is not emitted by a classical process:
Photocount distribution of photons emitted from three sites of a human body - 2006 Excerpt: Signals from three representative sites of low, intermediate and high intensities are selected for further analysis. Fluctuations in these signals are measured by the probabilities of detecting different numbers of photons in a bin. The probabilities have non-classical features and are well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons. Measurements with bins of three sizes yield same values of three parameters of the squeezed state. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520060
bornagain77
November 21, 2014
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explaining how an immaterial soul reaches down and pushes material particles around.
LoL! keith s still doesn't grasp the concept of the soul! That isn't the soul's function keith s. Obviously you didn't learn anything when you were allegedly a christian.Joe
November 21, 2014
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rhampton7:
The materialist explanation is based on brain function,
Yet the materialist cannot account for the brain.Joe
November 21, 2014
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Barry:
Seriously, I am happy with “I don’t know.” I am, obviously, a dualist. I don’t really know how that works in practice. I am certainly not a Cartesian substance dualist. I find notions of Hylomorphic dualism attractive, but I admit that it is ultimately a mystery and likely to remain so.
Barry, I'm surprised that Christians such as you and vjtorley are attracted to hylomorphic dualism. For most Christians, the separability of the soul from the body is an important concept. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise", which makes no sense unless the soul is separable. Yet under hylomorphic dualism, the soul is just the form of the body, and so presumably not separable. I remember asking vjtorley about this once, and he gave an answer that sounded bizarre to my ears. (I can't find the conversation, so this is from memory.) He proposed that when the body died, the soul ceased functioning -- except that God intervened and created an immaterial body that the soul could attach to and thus continue functioning. Not a very satisfying answer. Do you believe that the soul continues to function after the body has died? If so, how do you reconcile that with your rejection of substance dualism?keith s
November 21, 2014
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ppolish,
Keith, have you read Being as Communion like you told me you would?
I just started it yesterday. I thought it was interesting that in the preface, Dembski says he has plans to do a second edition of No Free Lunch with Robert Marks. Hopefully Marks will lend some rigor to the endeavor after fiascoes like this.keith s
November 20, 2014
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keiths:
We don’t yet have a satisfactory explanation of how consciousness arises from the physical brain, but the fact that it is inseparable from the physical brain is well established.
Do you just never tire of making claims you can't back up? Not only do we not know how "consciousness arises from the physical brain" we do not know that "consciousness arises from the physical brain." Nor do we know that only beings with brains are conscious. Nor do we know how to test the claim that consciousness "is inseparable from the physical brain." That said, I think Barry makes an unwarranted leap from D. Subjective self-awareness to Consciousness.Mung
November 20, 2014
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Aleta: "I’m not, however, interested in tracking down and reading old threads." poor keiths. old threads are all he has. But at least he isn't the emperor who had no clothes.Mung
November 20, 2014
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Thanks, ppolish. I read it, but didn't find it very illuminating. But, again, I'm interested in discussing with people here, and if no one wants to offer any thoughts, that's fine - people only get involved in topics if they are interested and feel they have something to say, and perhaps my questions are not of interest to anyone.Aleta
November 20, 2014
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Aleta, I haven't read this paper - but you might find it interesting. Wiki page: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_it_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F Keith, have you read Being as Communion like you told me you would? Great stuff for the IDer, terrible stuff for the Materialist yikes. "We are embodied beings, and the expression of who we are, including our free will, is limited by our bodies. In any case, to argue that material embodiment precludes free will requires much more than pointing out that brain damage is capable of affecting human action." Page 13.ppolish
November 20, 2014
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If gpuccio or VJ want to offer some thoughts, that would be interesting. Since I'm interested in discussion, I'm not, however, interested in tracking down and reading old threads. And to BA77, I agree that a major difference between our consciousness and the consciousness of other animals is our ability to represent the world symbolically through language, and to internalize language through thinking. But my question is more about the consciousness of other animals? Are they conscious in ways that are similar to some aspects to our consciousness, and if so, in what ways. What do people think about this?Aleta
November 20, 2014
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Aleta, you should pose your questions to GPuccio. If he has the time, he will probably give you some interesting things to consider.Upright BiPed
November 20, 2014
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Aleta, although I don't pretend to be near Dr. Torley's caliber on researching this matter, I would like to point out that the one attribute that humans possess, that most distinctly separates us from animals, is not an attribute of brute force, such as deadly teeth, speed, endurance, or strength, as would be expected on a Darwinian, ‘Nature red in tooth and claw’, view of things, but is the rather docile attribute of intelligence.
Darwin’s mistake: explaining the discontinuity between human and nonhuman minds. – 2008 Excerpt: To wit, there is a significant discontinuity in the degree to which human and nonhuman animals are able to approximate the higher-order, systematic, relational capabilities of a physical symbol system (PSS) (Newell 1980). We show that this symbolic-relational discontinuity pervades nearly every domain of cognition and runs much deeper than even the spectacular scaffolding provided by language or culture alone can explain,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18479531 Evolution of the Genus Homo – Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Sciences – Ian Tattersall, Jeffery H. Schwartz, May 2009 Excerpt: “Definition of the genus Homo is almost as fraught as the definition of Homo sapiens. We look at the evidence for “early Homo,” finding little morphological basis for extending our genus to any of the 2.5–1.6-myr-old fossil forms assigned to “early Homo” or Homo habilis/rudolfensis.”,,,, “Unusual though Homo sapiens may be morphologically, it is undoubtedly our remarkable cognitive qualities that most strikingly demarcate us from all other extant species. They are certainly what give us our strong subjective sense of being qualitatively different. And they are all ultimately traceable to our symbolic capacity. Human beings alone, it seems, mentally dissect the world into a multitude of discrete symbols, and combine and recombine those symbols in their minds to produce hypotheses of alternative possibilities. When exactly Homo sapiens acquired this unusual ability is the subject of debate.” http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.earth.031208.100202
Moreover, this unique attribute of intelligence of humans, to ‘mentally dissect the world into a multitude of discrete symbols, and combine and recombine those symbols in their minds to produce hypotheses of alternative possibilities’, i.e. to process and create information, though obviously not directly related to the ‘red in tooth and claw’ mantra of Darwinists, is directly related to the Christian notion that we were made in God’s image.
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and that life was the Light of men.
In fact, the three Rs, reading, writing, and arithmetic, i.e. the ability to process information, is the very first thing to be taught to children when they enter elementary school. And yet, very interestingly, it is information processing, i.e. reading, writing, and arithmetic, that is found to be foundational to life:
Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer – video clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU
Moreover, even though humans possess the ability to create and process information, and even though information processing is found to be foundationl to life, no one has ever witnessed unguided material processes creating information.
Is Life Unique? David L. Abel - January 2012 Concluding Statement: The scientific method itself cannot be reduced to mass and energy. Neither can language, translation, coding and decoding, mathematics, logic theory, programming, symbol systems, the integration of circuits, computation, categorizations, results tabulation, the drawing and discussion of conclusions. The prevailing Kuhnian paradigm rut of philosophic physicalism is obstructing scientific progress, biology in particular. There is more to life than chemistry. All known life is cybernetic. Control is choice-contingent and formal, not physicodynamic. http://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/2/1/106/
Moreover, it is information, not ‘material’, that is found to be foundational to the universe itself,,
Quantum Teleportation of a Human? – video https://vimeo.com/75163272 Conversations with William Dembski–The Thesis of Being as Communion – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYAsaU9IvnI
Verse and Music:
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” Casting Crowns – The Word Is Alive https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9itgOBAxSc
Of supplemental note, despite what is commonly believed, as far as morphology and physiology are concerned, despite superficial similarity, we actually share very little morphology and physiology uniquely in common with chimps
The Red Ape – Cornelius Hunter – August 2009 Excerpt: “There remains, however, a paradoxical problem lurking within the wealth of DNA data: our morphology and physiology have very little, if anything, uniquely in common with chimpanzees to corroborate a unique common ancestor. Most of the characters we do share with chimpanzees also occur in other primates, and in sexual biology and reproduction we could hardly be more different. It would be an understatement to think of this as an evolutionary puzzle.” http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2009/08/red-ape.html
bornagain77
November 20, 2014
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keith s, Barry Arrington, The materialist explanation is based on brain function, without which there is no consciousness. Futhermore, there is a link between brain size and complexity with degrees of consciousness (as Aleta alluded to with the question about animal consciousness). However, if X does not cause Y (the brain causes consciousness), then there is no reason reject consciousness in bacteria. And in fact, the 'intelligent' behavior exhibited in swarming would support the notion.rhampton7
November 20, 2014
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keiths:
I agree that there isn’t yet a satisfactory materialist account of consciousness, but allow me to point out what should be obvious, but is often overlooked: There is no satisfactory “immaterialist” account of consciouness either.
The difference is that the materialist dogma may prevent them from ever approaching an understanding of consciousness, because it rules out some possibilities a priori.Phinehas
November 20, 2014
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Aleta, VJ Torley has written extensively on this topic here at UD. You can use our search function to find his articles.Barry Arrington
November 20, 2014
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Keiths
I agree with him on that, but as I pointed out earlier, dualists and other “immaterialists” don’t have a good explanation of consciousness either. . . When your soul decides to raise your pinky finger, how does it cause the neurons in your brain to fire in the right way, so that nerve impulses eventually reach the muscles in your hand?
First, thank you for agreeing with the main thrust of the OP. Many materialists really struggle with that. Materialist seem to take one of two tacks on this issue. 1. Some put their faith in emergence. That’s OK I suppose so long as they realize it is a faith commitment and not a conclusion based on empirical investigation. Sadly, many of them do not recognize that. 2. Others deny that subjective self awareness exists. To them, I point to Bugs Bunny. To your point now. Haven’t you read your Descartes? The interface is in the pineal gland. :-) Seriously, I am happy with “I don’t know.” I am, obviously, a dualist. I don’t really know how that works in practice. I am certainly not a Cartesian substance dualist. I find notions of Hylomorphic dualism attractive, but I admit that it is ultimately a mystery and likely to remain so.Barry Arrington
November 20, 2014
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I'd like to change the nature of the conversation a bit, if anyone is interested. Irrespective of whatever the source of consciousness is, I'd like to hear more about what people are referring to when they talk about consciousness. In particular, my question is do you think other animals are conscious in ways that are similar to humans in some ways, and how would you describe those aspects of consciousness that you think are unique to humans? To be more specific, are gorillas conscious? Are dogs? Birds? Lizards? Fish? Here are some of my thoughts on these questions. We have what is probably called perceptual awareness - we see a tree, hear a bird call, smell a rose, etc. We have what appears to be an "internal" awareness of the world which is obviously accurate in that we interact successful with the world. We have no direct experience of other people's consciousness in this regard. Theoretically only I could be conscious, but no one believes this - we all assume that other human beings have a similar internal experience of perceiving, consciously, the external world. Now what about a gorilla? He obviously appears to react appropriately to the world - he looks at and reaches for a banana quite successfully. Does he also have a similar internal experience to ours - is he conscious in this perceptual sense? Or does he not? Is he more like a robot that somehow processes the stimuli appropriately without a conscious awareness of all that sensory input? There is no way we can get into the mind of a gorilla (if we think he has one), so we can't answer this question by direct investigation. Is the gorilla conscious in any way that is similar to our sense of perceptual consciousness? And if the gorilla is, in some way, what about the dog and bird and lizard and fish? What do you all think?Aleta
November 20, 2014
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Barry, in the OP:
Conversely, we can see how the principle is not in operation with respect to subjective self-awareness. As Thomas Nagel has said the “mental” is fundamentally different from the “physical.” The burden is therefore on those advancing an emergentist theory of consciousness to explain how “physical” events can cause “mental” events.
Barry, More goose/gander. As a dualist or immaterialist, you have the opposite problem: explaining how an immaterial soul reaches down and pushes material particles around. When your soul decides to raise your pinky finger, how does it cause the neurons in your brain to fire in the right way, so that nerve impulses eventually reach the muscles in your hand?keith s
November 20, 2014
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rhampton7:
If Barry Arrington’s hypothesis is correct, then consciousness exists in E. coli because bacterial swarming is a well documented example of emergent behavior.
Barry isn't claiming that every instance of emergent behavior is evidence of consciousness. He's just pointing out that we don't yet have a good explanation for how consciousness -- subjective awareness -- emerges from the physical interactions of neurons in a brain. I agree with him on that, but as I pointed out earlier, dualists and other "immaterialists" don't have a good explanation of consciousness either. It's "poofery" for them, too.keith s
November 20, 2014
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Although the ‘social networks’ of bacteria are very sophisticated and certainly defy any coherent explanation from the simplistic reductive (i.e. bottom up) materialistic narrative of Neo-Darwinism, I certainly would not call them 'conscious': Learning from Bacteria about Social Networks - video Description: Bacteria do not store genetically all the information required to respond efficiently to all possible environmental conditions. Instead, to solve new encountered problems (challenges) posed by the environment, they first assess the problem via collective sensing, then recall stored information of past experience and finally execute distributed information processing of the 109-12 bacteria in the colony,,, I will show illuminating movies of swarming intelligence of live bacteria in which they solve optimization problems for collective decision making that are beyond what we, human beings, can solve with our most powerful computers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJpi8SnFXHsbornagain77
November 20, 2014
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If Barry Arrington's hypothesis is correct, then consciousness exists in E. coli because bacterial swarming is a well documented example of emergent behavior.rhampton7
November 20, 2014
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