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Most Forms of the Argument From Evil Are Incoherent

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In a comment to another post StephenB noted that atheists often argue as follows: “evil exists; therefore God does not exist.” That is true. Yet, the incoherence of the argument should be immediately obvious. Let’s see why.

The argument to which Stephen alluded is an abbreviation of a more formal argument that goes like this:

Major Premise: If an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being (i.e., God) existed, he would not allow evil to exist.

Minor Premise: Evil exists

Conclusion: Therefore, God does not exist.

The problem with the argument is in the word “evil.” What does it mean? If metaphysical naturalism is true – if particles in motion are the only things that exist – then the word “evil” must necessarily have no “objective” meaning. In other words, if there is no transcendent moral lawgiver, there is no transcendent moral law. It follows that all moral choices are inherently subjective, choices that we choose because evolution has conditioned us to do so. Therefore, for the atheist, the word “evil” means “that which I personally do not prefer because evolution has conditioned me not to prefer it.”

Now, let’s reexamine the argument, but instead of using the word “evil” let us amplify it by using the definition.

Major Premise: If an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being (i.e., God) existed, he would not allow that which I personally do not prefer because evolution has conditioned me not to prefer it to exist.

Minor Premise: That which I personally do not prefer because evolution has conditioned me not to prefer it exists.

Conclusion: Therefore, God does not exist.

The argument in this form is plainly blithering nonsense.

We see then that the atheist makes an illogical leap. His argument is true only if it is false. The word “evil” has objective meaning only if God exists. Therefore, when the atheist is making his argument from the existence of evil he is necessarily doing one of two things:

1. Arguing in the nonsensical manner I illustrated; or

2. Judging the non-existence of God using a standard that does not exist unless God in fact exists.

Either way, the argument fails.

More problematic for the theist (at least theists who believe God is omnibenevolent) is Ivan Karamazov. Readers will remember that Ivan’s argument took the following form:

Definition: We will call the “omnipotent being” God

Major Premise: If God is omnibenevolent he would not allow evil to exist.

Minor Premise: Evil exists

Conclusion: Therefore, God is not omnibenevolent.

Keep in mind the difference between a valid argument and a sound argument. A valid argument is an argument in which the conclusion follows logically from the premises. Valid arguments do not necessarily result in true conclusions. They result in logical conclusions. An argument is said to be “sound” when it is valid AND its premises are true. A sound argument results in conclusions that are both logical and true.

The first argument that I set forth is not even valid. Ivan’s argument is a better argument in this sense – it is valid, meaning the conclusion at least has the virtue of following from the premises.

But is Ivan’s argument sound? That is another question altogether, the answer to which is beyond the scope of this post. Suffice at this point to say that Christians believe Ivan’s major premise is not true. They believe an omnibenevolent God might allow evil to exist in order to give the gift of free will to the beings he creates.

Comments
F/N 2: Other related characteristics that sound ever so familiar:
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them . . . Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love) Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim Incapable of real human attachment to another Unable to feel remorse or guilt Extreme narcissism and grandiose
Sounds a lot like web trolls are playing with fire, to me. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2013
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CS: ES is about doubt of the external world and it’s nature, not denial of it. That has nothing to do with my morality. (..) Moreover, I give “external reality” the benefit of my doubt. That is, I assume it is what is seems to be. That’s why the ES issue is entirely irrelevant to my morality. [my emphasis]
ES is entirely irrelevant to your morality. Earlier I called your thinking inconsistent and still I’m wondering how this all adds up. Anyway, now I take it then that ES does not inform your morality in any way. So what then is the philosophical basis of your morality? You told us that you regard all morality to be subjective, but I wonder what is the metaphysics behind your position?Box
December 12, 2013
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KF @231, Bwahahahaha. See @196. You really crack me up You must be LOADS of fun at parties :DCentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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F/N: Sociopaths lack an awareness of the worth of others, and seem to therefore want to treat others as means to their ends -- holding no value in themselves only as toys, tools and instruments. A typical set of highlights:
Glibness and Superficial Charm Manipulative and Conning They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims. Grandiose Sense of Self Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Pathological Lying Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. Shallow Emotions When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises. Incapacity for Love Need for Stimulation Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common. Callousness/Lack of Empathy Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
It is not too hard to see that there is something very wrong here. Unless, one is in deep, enabling denial of such a destructive pattern. Problem is, this is becoming a culture that enables, excuses and rewards or even celebrates such. We are in BIG trouble as a civilisation. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2013
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SB: Indeed, he cannot be sure of major swathes of the deliverances of his experienced outer world as conveyed by his mental faculties, so on the no firewalls principle, he is facing a regress of Plato's cave worlds. That therefore points straight at his perceived inner world also. In such a setting it probably is the least of his troubles that he faces a self-contradiction as you identified. That is what comes of trying to base your worldview on radical doubt. Better, would be to acknowledge pivotal, plumb-line self-evident truths to keep the necessary faith points in alignment with reality. Then, we can instead take the positive view that we hold to the general reliability of our mental faculties, subject to the possibility of and need to correct errors. In that context, we can look at the limitations of our ability to deliver certainty with due humility and confidence. There are ever so many things we cannot formally prove beyond dispute that we for good reason are morally certain of. We need to breathe and eat, our Moms love us, other people have minds [they are not zombies or figments of our brains in vats etc], the general main outlines of history for the past several millennia, the reliability of ever so many technologies and operational scientific results used in them, and ever so much more. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2013
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KRock: Its pointless to debate someone who is unsure that any knowledge outside of there own mind, actually exists.
See @196CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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KF, See @225CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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CS: Subjective is not the opposite of objective, and objective does not entail being material or strictly an epiphenomenon of the material. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2013
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kairosfocus to Central Scrutniizer:
For, if might and manipulation make ‘right’ in your fantasy world, the issue is, will you act out?
Actually, KF, there is a more fundamental problem with CS's position: [a] On the one hand, he says that his world of experience is all that he has. Accordingly, he can't be certain that he knows anything at all about the real world. [b] On the other hand, he is certain beyond any doubt that that might makes right is an important, non-negotiable truth about the real world.StephenB
December 12, 2013
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@Box (210) My response to CS was more "tongue and cheek" than anything else. That is, assuming you didn't already know that :-) Its pointless to debate someone who is unsure that any knowledge outside of there own mind, actually exists.KRock
December 12, 2013
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WFJ: let me put it this way: Question: when color sighted people perceive blue light, what do they see? Answer: the color blue Question: when color blind people perceive light, what do they see? Answer: a shade of gray Question: What is objectively common about both situations? Answer: the blue light Question: when a non-sociopath sees a child being beaten how will he react? Answer: with outrage Question: when a sociopath sees a child being beaten how will he react? Answer: with apathy or delight Question: what is objectively common about both situations Answer: the child is being beaten Question: Where is this "objective morality" in both situations? Answer: ________________ <-- cricketsCentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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CS: But the difference is, in the case of color, it’s “out there”, can be measured, and it’s not a matter of emotion. WFJ: You are assuming your conclusion here – that morality is not “out there”; that it cannot be measured, and that it is a matter of “emotion”.
Demonstrate otherwise.
CS: Now, what if we kill off all of the people who favor vanilla so that now 100% of the population thinks chocolate is the best flavor. Is the statement “chocolate is the best flavor” “objectively true”? If not, why not? WFJ: If we kill off everyone who is not color blind, is “the sky is blue” still objectively true?
Yes, in a sense. But my illustration was a bit sloppy and I will tighten it up. The sky is not, in fact, blue. The sky radiates objective electromagnetic energy at particular frequencies which are detected by our retinas, processes by the brain, and finally ends up as a subjective experience of "blue." The experience of blue is subjective. The external triggers that led to that experience objective. "External", "out there" is what "objective" means. "Internal", "in my mind", is what "subjective" means. There is no "objective" morality "out there" because "objective" doesn't mean something that's going on inside your subjective thoughts, by definition. There might be objective things that occur "out there" that trigger your response, but your response is entirely within your own mind, i.e, it is subjective. That's what subjective means. So then, when a socialpath (3% of the population) lack empathy, what is it "objectively out there" that they are not perceiving?CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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CS,
But the difference is, in the case of color, it’s “out there”, can be measured, and it’s not a matter of emotion.
You are assuming your conclusion here - that morality is not "out there"; that it cannot be measured, and that it is a matter of "emotion". You haven't demonstrated that it's not "out there", that it cannot be measured, and that it is only a matter of "emotion". In fact, aren't you epistemologically incapable of demonstrating any of those claims?
Now, what if we kill off all of the people who favor vanilla so that now 100% of the population thinks chocolate is the best flavor. Is the statement “chocolate is the best flavor” “objectively true”? If not, why not?
If we kill off everyone who is not color blind, is "the sky is blue" still objectively true?William J Murray
December 12, 2013
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Sidebar: an interesting read: http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0767915828CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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WFJ: So, outside of a few blind people (psychopaths),
It is estimated that about 3% of the population in the USA are sociopaths. No, they are not all serial killers, but they have no empathy like the rest of us do. That's hardly a "few" people. Now, why cannot sociopaths perceive your morality, if it is objective?CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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WFJ: I think this is where you are obviously wrong. In the same sense that “Normal people with normal eyes can direct their eyes to a blue object and see blue. Most people of sound mind would agree that a blue house is “objectively blue.” … one can say “Normal people with a normal moral sense/conscience can direct their minds/sight towards a person torturing a child for persona pleasure and see that it is morally wrong. Most people of sound mind would agree that torturing a child for personal pleasure is “objectively wrong”. No moral wrangling, philosophy or “rants” necessary. No explanations or tortured arguments. Most people would immediately act as if their morality is objectively real and binding to the point of obligating them to act.
But the difference is, in the case of color, it's "out there", can be measured, and it's not a matter of emotion. Your sense of moral repugnance is not "out there", but rather it is wired into your brain. Some animals can see color. But none of them see that "objective" thing you call morality out there. Why not? Because it's not "out there" at all. It's wired into your brain. That, by definition, makes it entirely subjective. That most people feel repugnance (not all people do, you know) doesn't mean it's objectively true in the same sense as the color blue. Consider: which flavor of ice cream is the best? Chocolate or vanilla? If we did a poll, perhaps the results would fall somewhere around 50/50. Who is right? Is the statement "chocolate is better" objectively true or not? Now, what if we kill off all of the people who favor vanilla so that now 100% of the population thinks chocolate is the best flavor. Is the statement "chocolate is the best flavor" "objectively true"? If not, why not?CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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Box: Doesn’t the fact that one admits to be unsure about the existence of external reality excludes one from the front rows of a debate on the ontological status of particular aspects of outside reality? Not from where I sit. See @218.
Irrespective of pragmatism, this behavior doesn’t fit at all well with epistemological solipsism.
I disagree, what can I say. If you don't thing I add anything worthwhile to any of this, then don't waste your time reading it.CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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KF: MORAL YARDSTICK 1: It is self-evidently wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child, and corollary: if one sees such in progress s/he is duty bound to intervene to try to save the child from the monster. On your version of solipsism, it seems you disagree.
Why would you think I disagree? ES is about doubt of the external world and it's nature, not denial of it. That has nothing to do with my morality. I still have to deal with conscious consequences of whatever this "external world" is. I am still emotionally affected by it whatever its nature, and act accordingly. Moreiver, I give "external reality" the benefit of my doubt. That is, I assume it is what is seems to be. That's why the ES issue is entirely irrelevant to my morality.
For, if might and manipulation make ‘right’ in your fantasy world, the issue is, will you act out?
Obviously you haven't read everything I've written here. I suggest you do that, if you are actually interested in my views.CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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MF: Kindly see the just above. If you think that evasions, distortions, dismissals, verbal gymnastics and the like allow you to evade the force of MY 1 and then say "oh, we are tired of going in circles let's talk something else . . . ," think again. Think of this from the perspective of my friend X, who lost a son to such a monster or maybe it was a circle of them. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2013
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CS: Let's start with basics:
MORAL YARDSTICK 1: It is self-evidently wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child, and corollary: if one sees such in progress s/he is duty bound to intervene to try to save the child from the monster.
On your version of solipsism, it seems you disagree. At that point, unless you show cause for me and for others to consider that you are not serious, we should ring-fence you and mark you off with a big red warning flag. For, if might and manipulation make 'right' in your fantasy world, the issue is, will you act out? End of story. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2013
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CS Doesn't the fact that one admits to be unsure about the existence of external reality excludes one from the front rows of a debate on the ontological status of particular aspects of outside reality? I mean, I suppose that one could add to the debate, by saying something profound along the lines of 'maybe it is all an illusion' or 'maybe it is not all an illusion'. But it is quite another thing to engage in the discussion by making statements as "I see that X is objective!" or 'Y is demonstrably real!". Irrespective of pragmatism, this behavior doesn't fit at all well with epistemological solipsism.Box
December 12, 2013
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CS: You have described the difference between something accepted as objectively existent and something not accepted as objectively existent in your "blue" example as being what most normal people of sound mind would recognize and agree on without any philosophical quibbling or tortured explanations. IOW, they would all point at the sky and say "that is blue", and thus the "blueness" of the sky is accepted as an objective commodity. Yet, that explanation precisely describes what we find in the case of the moral equivalent of "perceiving blue"; most (virtually all, IMO) normal people of sound mind would point at someone torturing a child for their own amusement and say "that is morally wrong", and thus - by your own example - the moral wrongness of the act must be accepted as an objective commodity.William J Murray
December 12, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer, claiming with apodictic certainty, that he knows something important about the external world:
Might Makes Right is reality, regardless of what I believe is right.
Central Scrutinizer claiming, with equal conviction, that he may not know anything at all about the external world:
It could be an illusion. Or it could have a reality close to what I’m perceiving. There’s no way to know for sure. In the end, I’m only sure that I’m conscious and experiencing “the external world.”
Unbelievable.StephenB
December 12, 2013
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Normal people with normal eyes can direct their eyes to a blue object and see blue. Most people of sound mind would agree that a blue house is “objectively blue.” No philosophical wranglings necessary. It’s immediately obvious. Rants about morality being objective is not immediately obvious to anyone, as far as I can tell, and not obvious even to many who sit though the tortured explanations of why people like you think it is so. That’s how it’s different.
I think this is where you are obviously wrong. In the same sense that "Normal people with normal eyes can direct their eyes to a blue object and see blue. Most people of sound mind would agree that a blue house is “objectively blue." ... one can say "Normal people with a normal moral sense/conscience can direct their minds/sight towards a person torturing a child for persona pleasure and see that it is morally wrong. Most people of sound mind would agree that torturing a child for personal pleasure is "objectively wrong". No moral wrangling, philosophy or "rants" necessary. No explanations or tortured arguments. Most people would immediately act as if their morality is objectively real and binding to the point of obligating them to act. It seems to me that the only one attempting to torture a philosophical variance between these examples is you, in order to maintain the idea that morality is "subjective" in nature.
There is no “means” and nothing to separate. It’s because there is no objective morality to “perceive out there.”
If there is no means by which to separate an objective commodity from a subjective one, then are you saying it is completely arbitrary? You have no means by which you will decide what phenomena to treat as if objective, and what phenomena to treat as if objective? How do you decide?
Say there are two kings. One has nice clothes on. The other is naked. Your question is like you asking me by what means I can call the first king’s clothes objective and the reject the second king’s clothes as being objective. The “means” is, the second king doesn’t have any clothes to be objective “about.”
You're assuming a conclusion not available under your argument here. Let me explain why. You have already admitted that there is no way for you to be sure that "the king has no clothes on"; you have already admitted that you subjectively experience morality, which in terms of your analogy, means that you subjectively perceive a clothed emperor as well - because you experience morality. The king would only appear naked to you, so to speak, if you didn't subjectively experience morality - moral oughts, authority and obligations. So, your assertion that the king is naked can only be some kind of conclusion you have reached because it is not your de facto subjective experience. So, outside of a few blind people (psychopaths), we (including you) all see (experience) a clothed emperor (morality). Your only available argument to reach a conclusion that the emperor is not clothed (no morality "out there"), in correct relation to the analogy, would be that because we disagree on what the emperor is wearing, you conclude that he is wearing nothing at all - which is a complete non-sequitur, since only those we agree are psychopaths see the emperor as "naked" (experience no morality). You have no basis in your argument for the view that "the emperor is naked" because even you perceive him as clothed. The rational conclusion is that while we disagree on exactly what the emperor is wearing, he is wearing something, and like with all things assumed to be objective in nature, people can disagree on the appearance or qualities of that thing because they are subjectively interpreting an objectively existent commodity and can err in those perceptions/interpretations. Since even you experience morality, by what principle or means do you classify it as "not objective", especially since every sane person on the planet also experiences morality, and especially since you admit you act as if it is objective anyway?William J Murray
December 12, 2013
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On the other hand CS retracts his epistemological ambition
There is nothing to retract. ES is about unsurety of what's "out there", not denial of it.
...towards knowledge in favor of a pragmatic approach which he is somehow forced to adopt. So he is willing to discuss the ‘outside’ world as if it exists – with ‘other’ people as if they exist.
It's not complicated. In a nutshell, I am unsure of the nature and existence of external reality, but I give it the benefit of my doubt.
One cannot help wondering why that is – and to what end?
See @196. Hope that helps.CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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Not so fast KRock! #205 CS is not a metaphysical solipsist! He is a epistemological solipsist instead. On the other hand CS retracts his epistemological ambition towards knowledge in favor of a pragmatic approach which he is somehow forced to adopt ... So he is willing to discuss the 'outside' world as if it exists - with 'other' people as if they exist. One cannot help wondering why that is - and to what end?Box
December 12, 2013
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KRock: CS, I believe you are right; there is no a contradiction, so I will humbly admit my error. I believe I am unable to refute your epistemological solipsist position just as you are unable to defend it.
Right. I do not attempt to defend my epistemological solipsism nor am I interested in making converts.
Question. As a Solipsist, would not the use of language be necessarily private?
No. Epistemological solipsism does not deny the existence of external reality. It's a matter of surety of its existence, and what the nature of it might be. Moreover, I'm a pragmatist in practice. See @196.
Although I don’t agree with your philosophy, I’ve learned something about it. So thanks CS.
You bet.CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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KRock, BTW, I'm not a metaphysical solipsist, merely a epistemological solipsist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism Hope this helpsCentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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KRock, See @196CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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WJM: Now I’m really confused...Do colorblind people see “blue” when they look at what you are looking at?
No. They are impaired so they are disqualified from the discussion of "seeing blue" as an objective or subjective property.
How is perception of color qualitatively different than perception of what is morally wrong?
Normal people with normal eyes can direct their eyes to a blue object and see blue. Most people of sound mind would agree that a blue house is "objectively blue." No philosophical wranglings necessary. It's immediately obvious. Rants about morality being objective is not immediately obvious to anyone, as far as I can tell, and not obvious even to many who sit though the tortured explanations of why people like you think it is so. That's how it's different.
What is your means of separating what is a perception of an objective commodity from what is a perception of a subjective commodity? What criteria do you use?
There is no "means" and nothing to separate. It's because there is no objective morality to "perceive out there." Say there are two kings. One has nice clothes on. The other is naked. Your question is like you asking me by what means I can call the first king's clothes objective and the reject the second king's clothes as being objective. The "means" is, the second king doesn't have any clothes to be objective "about." In other words, the question is invalid. There's nothing objective "to see" when it comes to "objective morality." Because the only morality that exists is subjective. We don't see objective morality because it's "not there." Now, I acknowledge that I could be "blind" and that objective morality is really "out there" to be perceived, but I cannot perceive it. But if that's true, no amount of words you could possibly provide will ever get me to see it, just like no amount of words will make a color blind person understand what blue is. But I doubt this is the case, because the words you guys do> use, always betray the reality of the subjectivity of it all. Hope that helps.CentralScrutinizer
December 12, 2013
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