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Most Forms of the Argument From Evil Are Incoherent

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In a comment to another post StephenB noted that atheists often argue as follows: “evil exists; therefore God does not exist.” That is true. Yet, the incoherence of the argument should be immediately obvious. Let’s see why.

The argument to which Stephen alluded is an abbreviation of a more formal argument that goes like this:

Major Premise: If an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being (i.e., God) existed, he would not allow evil to exist.

Minor Premise: Evil exists

Conclusion: Therefore, God does not exist.

The problem with the argument is in the word “evil.” What does it mean? If metaphysical naturalism is true – if particles in motion are the only things that exist – then the word “evil” must necessarily have no “objective” meaning. In other words, if there is no transcendent moral lawgiver, there is no transcendent moral law. It follows that all moral choices are inherently subjective, choices that we choose because evolution has conditioned us to do so. Therefore, for the atheist, the word “evil” means “that which I personally do not prefer because evolution has conditioned me not to prefer it.”

Now, let’s reexamine the argument, but instead of using the word “evil” let us amplify it by using the definition.

Major Premise: If an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being (i.e., God) existed, he would not allow that which I personally do not prefer because evolution has conditioned me not to prefer it to exist.

Minor Premise: That which I personally do not prefer because evolution has conditioned me not to prefer it exists.

Conclusion: Therefore, God does not exist.

The argument in this form is plainly blithering nonsense.

We see then that the atheist makes an illogical leap. His argument is true only if it is false. The word “evil” has objective meaning only if God exists. Therefore, when the atheist is making his argument from the existence of evil he is necessarily doing one of two things:

1. Arguing in the nonsensical manner I illustrated; or

2. Judging the non-existence of God using a standard that does not exist unless God in fact exists.

Either way, the argument fails.

More problematic for the theist (at least theists who believe God is omnibenevolent) is Ivan Karamazov. Readers will remember that Ivan’s argument took the following form:

Definition: We will call the “omnipotent being” God

Major Premise: If God is omnibenevolent he would not allow evil to exist.

Minor Premise: Evil exists

Conclusion: Therefore, God is not omnibenevolent.

Keep in mind the difference between a valid argument and a sound argument. A valid argument is an argument in which the conclusion follows logically from the premises. Valid arguments do not necessarily result in true conclusions. They result in logical conclusions. An argument is said to be “sound” when it is valid AND its premises are true. A sound argument results in conclusions that are both logical and true.

The first argument that I set forth is not even valid. Ivan’s argument is a better argument in this sense – it is valid, meaning the conclusion at least has the virtue of following from the premises.

But is Ivan’s argument sound? That is another question altogether, the answer to which is beyond the scope of this post. Suffice at this point to say that Christians believe Ivan’s major premise is not true. They believe an omnibenevolent God might allow evil to exist in order to give the gift of free will to the beings he creates.

Comments
StephenB, I notice you didn't bother to reply to my commentary @165. I have nothing further to discuss with you.CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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Box, That is funny. Except only with regards to metaphysical solipsism, not epistemological solipsism, which should be obvious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism I'm a epistemological solipsist, not a metaphysical one.CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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Solipsist joke by Alvin Plantinga:
AP: British philosopher Bertrand Russell was a solipsist for a time (why does that not surprise me?), and he once received a letter from a woman who found his arguments very convincing. Well, I suppose it’s not so hard to convince a figment of your imagination that your arguments are brilliant. Anyway, the woman commented in her letter that his description of solipsism made a lot of sense and that, “I’m surprised there are not more of us.”
WJM #143: Are you a solipsist?
CS #144: Yes. It surprises me that not everyone is a Solipsist.
Box
December 11, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer
So you can copy and paste from the Abolition of Man. Well, at least you posted something. Thanks for finally doing it.
Well, of course. I could have retrieved it from a hundred sources. As I say, it isn't "my" morality.
I will tell you that there are significant differences in those texts as well. Do you accept all the contradictory differences? Obviously you could not.
So. is this like the time when I informed you about natural rights and you started lecturing me on the same subject without having the first clue about what you were talking about? Are you now going to try to teach me about the same subject that you were ignorant about until an hour ago?
I think Abolition of Man was one of his weaker works. I have sympathy for what he was attempting, but logically he failed to make his case.
Are you asking us to believe that you have given the matter any thought at all or that you have read The Abolition of Man? Two posts ago, you claimed that I couldn't deliver, which means, of course, that you had no clue about Lewis or any other exponent of the natural moral laws. Again, you display your profound ignorance. Just to make the point, I will ask the relevant question: What "argument" do you think Lewis was making.StephenB
December 11, 2013
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@CentralScrutinizer "As an epistemological position [which I hold], solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one’s own mind is unsure. The external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside the mind. (Or if they do exist, exist in radically different sense than is apprehended.)" SC, I have to ask you again. How do you convince someone of this solipsism (epistemological) philosophical position? Better yet, why even bother trying to convince someone you’re an epistemological solipsist? It just seems bizarre. It would be like trying to convince someone that you have your own private language but that nobody can ever hear or understand it. Why would I have any reason to believe you? To convince me (or anyone for that matter) of your belief, you’ll need to convince me that you’re the only valid being and I am merely but a projection of your imagination. Good luck with that SC. It would also seem that only one person in the world could be a solipsist and correct in their belief. In other words, if I were to tell you that I too was solipsist, which one of us is right?KRock
December 11, 2013
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I may be unsure about external reality, but in daily pragmatic practice I assume it exists and that other people are conscious.
Why do you allow 'daily pragmatic practice' - which introduces anti-solipsistical elements such as individuals - to permeate your epistemological deliberations? I find that inconsistent. Why then call yourself an epistemological solipsist?Box
December 11, 2013
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SB: My interest in the question of CS is: How can you identify some decision as aligned with objective morality, eg: Horse racing may be deemed to be unethical. Would this decision be aligned with objective morality ?, and whether your answer is YES or NO, how do you know? Im sure there are plenty of people in both camps, so who is right ? who is wrong ? How do we know which is which ?Graham2
December 11, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer
When I say they are good or bad, it is implied, given my philosophy, that I’m saying I believe they are good, and I believe they are bad. I make no objective moral declarations. If I did, then you would be right. But I don’t.
That is another irrational statement. Each time you misuse the language and choose the word "good" when your really mean something else, we are supposed to understand that you didn't really mean what the word means. Sorry, that is not the way dialogue works.
I think it’s closer to the truth that you make a lot of unfounded assumptions you when have discussions with people, and have trouble keeping the material straight.
It isn't an assumption to say that morally good means to be in accord with the moral law. All rational people understand the relationship.
I knew you couldn’t deliver the goods [natural moral law].
It is very foolish to make such uninformed statements.StephenB
December 11, 2013
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Box,
CS #142: That individuals differ in their moral views is evidence that morality is subjective. Box: One question: is it appropriate for a epistemological solipsist to make this argument? I mean … individuals as in plural?
Yes. Epistemological solipsism is a view about the lack of surety about one's knowledge. Since I am unsure, I give my perceptions that external persons exist the benefit of the doubt. I may be unsure about external reality, but in daily pragmatic practice I assume it exists and that other people are conscious.CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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SB: Where have you looked? Nowhere, I am sure.
You are sure?
You have received nothing but straight answers from WJM and myself, and your responses have been consistently irrational.
I disagree. The readers can decide.CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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SB, So you can copy and paste from the Abolition of Man. Well, at least you posted something. Thanks for finally doing it. So, is it your claim that the sources of these "natural laws" contain no contradictions? Not just the texts you cited (from Lewis), that essentially agree, but the full text of those source? I will tell you that there are significant differences in those texts as well. Do you accept all the contradictory differences? Obviously you could not. Lewis cited a bunch of ancient texts in an attempt to show that within humanity there is a fairly standard set of ideas with regards to human behavior amongst relative equals. However, Lewis never rose above a subjective, "basically you know the Tao or you don't." I think Abolition of Man was one of his weaker works. I have sympathy for what he was attempting, but logically he failed to make his case. It boiled down to a subjective agreement with certain ideas that you either agree with or you don't, which he called the Tao. At any rate, those who held these ideas had great differences on how, say, females were treated compared to men, property rights, how slaves were to be treated, and so forth. For example, the Old Testament says that a child who curses his mother or father should be put to death. (Lev 20:9) Do you agree with this morality?CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer
I’m asking you what this objective morality is? (I didn’t ask for your “exclusive morality.”) Where do I find it?
Where have you looked? Nowhere, I am sure.
Still no straight answer from you or WJM despite the repeated enquiries from me and others.
You have received nothing but straight answers from WJM and myself, and your responses have been consistently irrational. I will provide to you the natural moral law so that you can provide another irrational response. -------------- I. The Law of General Beneficence (a) NEGATIVE ‘I have not slain men.’ (Ancient Egyptian. From the Confession of the Righteous Soul, ‘Book of the Dead’, v. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics [= ERE], vol. v, p. 478) ‘Do not murder.’ (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:13) ‘Terrify not men or God will terrify thee.’ (Ancient Egyptian. Precepts of Ptahhetep. H. R. Hall, Ancient History of the Near East, p. i3}n) ‘In Nastrond (= Hell) I saw… murderers.’ (Old Norse. Volospá 38, 39) ‘I have not brought misery upon my fellows. I have not made the beginning of every day laborious in the sight of him who worked for me.’ (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) ‘I have not been grasping.’ (Ancient Egyptian. Ibid.) ‘Who meditates oppression, his dwelling is overturned.’ (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445) ‘He who is cruel and calumnious has the character of a cat.’ (Hindu. Laws of Manu. Janet, Histoire de la Science Politique, vol. i, p. 6) ‘Slander not.’ (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445) ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.’ (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:16) ‘Utter not a word by which anyone could be wounded.’ (Hindu. Janet, p. 7) ‘Has he … driven an honest man from his family? broken up a well cemented clan?’ (Babylonian. List of Sins from incantation tablets. ERE v. 446) ‘I have not caused hunger. I have not caused weeping.’ (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 478) ‘Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects of Confucius, trans. A. Waley, xv. 23; cf. xii. 2) ‘Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart.’ (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:17) ‘He whose heart is in the smallest degree set upon goodness will dislike no one.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects, iv. 4) (b) POSITIVE ‘Nature urges that a man should wish human society to exist and should wish to enter it.’ (Roman. Cicero, De Officiis, i. iv) ‘By the fundamental Law of Nature Man [is] to be preserved as much as possible.’ (Locke, Treatises of Civil Govt. ii. 3)‘When the people have multiplied, what next should be done for them? The Master said, Enrich them. Jan Ch’iu said, When one has enriched them, what next should be done for them? The Master said, Instruct them.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects, xiii. 9) ‘Speak kindness … show good will.’ (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445) ‘Men were brought into existence for the sake of men that they might do one another good.’ (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. vii) ‘Man is man’s delight.’ (Old Norse. Hávamál 47) ‘He who is asked for alms should always give.’ (Hindu. Janet, i. 7) ‘What good man regards any misfortune as no concern of his?’ (Roman. Juvenal xv. 140) ‘I am a man: nothing human is alien to me.’ (Roman. Terence, Heaut. Tim.) ‘Love thy neighbour as thyself.’ (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:18) ‘Love the stranger as thyself.’ (Ancient Jewish. Ibid. 33, 34) ‘Do to men what you wish men to do to you.’ (Christian. Matthew 7:12) 2. The Law of Special Beneficence ‘It is upon the trunk that a gentleman works. When that is firmly set up, the Way grows. And surely proper behaviour to parents and elder brothers is the trunk of goodness.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects, i. 2) ‘Brothers shall fight and be each others’ bane.’ (Old Norse. Account of the Evil Age before the World’s end, Volospá 45) ‘Has he insulted his elder sister?’ (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) ‘You will see them take care of their kindred [and] the children of their friends … never reproaching them in the least.’ (Redskin. Le Jeune, quoted ERE v. 437) ‘Love thy wife studiously. Gladden her heart all thy life long.’ (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 481) ‘Nothing can ever change the claims of kinship for a right thinking man.’ (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2600) ‘Did not Socrates love his own children, though he did so as a free man and as one not forgetting that the gods have the first claim on our friendship?’ (Greek, Epictetus, iii. 24) ‘Natural affection is a thing right and according to Nature.’ (Greek. Ibid. i. xi) ‘I ought not to be unfeeling like a statue but should fulfil both my natural and artificial relations, as a worshipper, a son, a brother, a father, and a citizen.’ (Greek. Ibid. 111. ii) ‘This first I rede thee: be blameless to thy kindred. Take no vengeance even though they do thee wrong.’ (Old Norse. Sigdrifumál, 22) ‘Is it only the sons of Atreus who love their wives? For every good man, who is right-minded, loves and cherishes his own.’ (Greek. Homer, Iliad, ix. 340) ‘The union and fellowship of men will be best preserved if each receives from us the more kindness in proportion as he is more closely connected with us.’ (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. xvi) ‘Part of us is claimed by our country, part by our parents, part by our friends.’ (Roman. Ibid. i. vii) ‘If a ruler … compassed the salvation of the whole state, surely you would call him Good? The Master said, It would no longer be a matter of “Good”. He would without doubt be a Divine Sage.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects, vi. 28) ‘Has it escaped you that, in the eyes of gods and good men, your native land deserves from you more honour, worship, and reverence than your mother and father and all your ancestors? That you should give a softer answer to its anger than to a father’s anger? That if you cannot persuade it to alter its mind you must obey it in all quietness, whether it binds you or beats you or sends you to a war where you may get wounds or death?’ (Greek. Plato, Crito, 51, a, b) ‘If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith.’ (Christian. I Timothy 5:8) ‘Put them in mind to obey magistrates.’… ‘I exhort that prayers be made for kings and all that are in authority.’ (Christian. Titus 3:1 and I Timothy 2:1, 2) 3. Duties to Parents, Elders, Ancestors ‘Your father is an image of the Lord of Creation, your mother an image of the Earth. For him who fails to honour them, every work of piety is in vain. This is the first duty.’ (Hindu. Janet, i. 9) ‘Has he despised Father and Mother?’ (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) ‘I was a staff by my Father’s side … I went in and out at his command.’ (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 481) ‘Honour thy Father and thy Mother.’ (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:12) ‘To care for parents.’ (Greek. List of duties in Epictetus, in. vii) ‘Children, old men, the poor, and the sick, should be considered as the lords of the atmosphere.’ (Hindu. Janet, i. 8) ‘Rise up before the hoary head and honour the old man.’ (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:32) ‘I tended the old man, I gave him my staff.’ (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 481) ‘You will see them take care … of old men.’ (Redskin. Le Jeune, quoted ERE v. 437) ‘I have not taken away the oblations of the blessed dead.’ (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) ‘When proper respect towards the dead is shown at the end and continued after they are far away, the moral force (tê) of a people has reached its highest point.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects, i. 9) 4. Duties to Children and Posterity ‘Children, the old, the poor, etc. should be considered as lords of the atmosphere.’ (Hindu. Janet, i. 8) ‘To marry and to beget children.’ (Greek. List of duties. Epictetus, in. vii) ‘Can you conceive an Epicurean commonwealth? . . . What will happen? Whence is the population to be kept up? Who will educate them? Who will be Director of Adolescents? Who will be Director of Physical Training? What will be taught?’ (Greek. Ibid.) ‘Nature produces a special love of offspring’ and ‘To live according to Nature is the supreme good.’ (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i. iv, and De Legibus, i. xxi) ‘The second of these achievements is no less glorious than the first; for while the first did good on one occasion, the second will continue to benefit the state for ever.’ (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. xxii) ‘Great reverence is owed to a child.’ (Roman. Juvenal, xiv. 47) ‘The Master said, Respect the young.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects, ix. 22) ‘The killing of the women and more especially of the young boys and girls who are to go to make up the future strength of the people, is the saddest part… and we feel it very sorely.’ (Redskin. Account of the Battle of Wounded Knee. ERE v. 432) 5. The Law of Justice (a) SEXUAL JUSTICE ‘Has he approached his neighbour’s wife?’ (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery.’ (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:14) ‘I saw in Nastrond (= Hell)… beguilers of others’ wives.’ (Old Norse. Volospá 38, 39) (b) HONESTY ‘Has he drawn false boundaries?’ (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) ‘To wrong, to rob, to cause to be robbed.’ (Babylonian. Ibid.) ‘I have not stolen.’ (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) ‘Thou shalt not steal.’ (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:15) ‘Choose loss rather than shameful gains.’ (Greek. Chilon Fr. 10. Diels) ‘Justice is the settled and permanent intention of rendering to each man his rights.’ (Roman. Justinian, Institutions, I. i) ‘If the native made a “find” of any kind (e.g., a honey tree) and marked it, it was thereafter safe for him, as far as his own tribesmen were concerned, no matter how long he left it.’ (Australian Aborigines. ERE v. 441) ‘The first point of justice is that none should do any mischief to another unless he has first been attacked by the other’s wrongdoing. The second is that a man should treat common property as common property, and private property as his own. There is no such thing as private property by nature, but things have become private either through prior occupation (as when men of old came into empty territory) or by conquest, or law, or agreement, or stipulation, or casting lots.’ (Roman. Cicero, De Off. I. vii) (c) JUSTICE IN COURT, &C. ‘Whoso takes no bribe … well pleasing is this to Samas.’ (Babylonian. ERE v. 445) ‘I have not traduced the slave to him who is set over him.’ (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.’ (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:16) ‘Regard him whom thou knowest like him whom thou knowest not.’ (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 482) ‘Do no unrighteousness in judgement. You must not consider the fact that one party is poor nor the fact that the other is a great man.’ (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:15) 6. The Law of Good Faith and Veracity ‘A sacrifice is obliterated by a lie and the merit of alms by an act of fraud.’ (Hindu. Janet, i. 6) ‘Whose mouth, full of lying, avails not before thee: thou burnest their utterance.’ (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445) ‘With his mouth was he full of Yea, in his heart full of Nay? (Babylonian. ERE v. 446) ‘I have not spoken falsehood.’ (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) ‘I sought no trickery, nor swore false oaths.’ (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2738) ‘The Master said, Be of unwavering good faith.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects, viii. 13) ‘In Nastrond (= Hell) I saw the perjurers.’ (Old Norse. Volospá 39) ‘Hateful to me as are the gates of Hades is that man who says one thing, and hides another in his heart.’ (Greek. Homer. Iliad, ix. 312) ‘The foundation of justice is good faith.’ (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i.vii) ‘[The gentleman] must learn to be faithful to his superiors and to keep promises.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects, i. 8) ‘Anything is better than treachery.’ (Old Norse. Hávamál 124) 7. The Law of Mercy ‘The poor and the sick should be regarded as lords of the atmosphere.’ (Hindu. Janet, i. 8) ‘Whoso makes intercession for the weak, well pleasing is this to Samas.’ (Babylonian. ERE v. 445) ‘Has he failed to set a prisoner free?’ (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) ‘I have given bread to the hungry, water to the thirsty, clothes to the naked, a ferry boat to the boatless.’ (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 446) ‘One should never strike a woman; not even with a flower.’ (Hindu. Janet, i. 8) ‘There, Thor, you got disgrace, when you beat women.’ (Old Norse. Hárbarthsljóth 38) ‘In the Dalebura tribe a woman, a cripple from birth, was carried about by the tribes-people in turn until her death at the age of sixty-six.’… ‘They never desert the sick.’ (Australian Aborigines. ERE v. 443) ‘You will see them take care of… widows, orphans, and old men, never reproaching them.’ (Redskin. ERE v. 439) ‘Nature confesses that she has given to the human race the tenderest hearts, by giving us the power to weep. This is the best part of us.’ (Roman. Juvenal, xv. 131) ‘They said that he had been the mildest and gentlest of the kings of the world.’ (Anglo-Saxon. Praise of the hero in Beowulf, 3180) ‘When thou cuttest down thine harvest… and hast forgot a sheaf… thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.’ (Ancient Jewish. Deuteronomy 24:19) 8. The Law of Magnanimity (a) ‘There are two kinds of injustice: the first is found in those who do an injury, the second in those who fail to protect another from injury when they can.’ (Roman. Cicero, De Off. I. vii) ‘Men always knew that when force and injury was offered they might be defenders of themselves; they knew that howsoever men may seek their own commodity, yet if this were done with injury unto others it was not to be suffered, but by all men and by all good means to be withstood.’ (English. Hooker, Laws of Eccl. Polity, I. ix. 4) ‘To take no notice of a violent attack is to strengthen the heart of the enemy. Vigour is valiant, but cowardice is vile.’ (Ancient Egyptian. The Pharaoh Senusert III, cit. H. R. Hall, Ancient History of the Near East, p. 161) ‘They came to the fields of joy, the fresh turf of the Fortunate Woods and the dwellings of the Blessed . . . here was the company of those who had suffered wounds fighting for their fatherland.’ (Roman. Virgil, Aeneid, vi. 638-9, 660) ‘Courage has got to be harder, heart the stouter, spirit the sterner, as our strength weakens. Here lies our lord, cut to pieces, out best man in the dust. If anyone thinks of leaving this battle, he can howl forever.’ (Anglo-Saxon. Maldon, 312) ‘Praise and imitate that man to whom, while life is pleasing, death is not grievous.’ (Stoic. Seneca, Ep. liv) ‘The Master said, Love learning and if attacked be ready to die for the Good Way.’ (Ancient Chinese. Analects, viii. 13) (b)‘Death is to be chosen before slavery and base deeds.’ (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i, xxiii) ‘Death is better for every man than life with shame.’ (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2890) ‘Nature and Reason command that nothing uncomely, nothing effeminate, nothing lascivious be done or thought.’ (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i. iv) ‘We must not listen to those who advise us “being men to think human thoughts, and being mortal to think mortal thoughts,” but must put on immortality as much as is possible and strain every nerve to live according to that best part of us, which, being small in bulk, yet much more in its power and honour surpasses all else.’ (Ancient Greek. Aristotle, Eth. Nic. 1177 B) ‘The soul then ought to conduct the body, and the spirit of our minds the soul. This is therefore the first Law, whereby the highest power of the mind requireth obedience at the hands of all the rest.’ (Hooker, op. cit. i. viii. 6) ‘Let him not desire to die, let him not desire to live, let him wait for his time … let him patiently bear hard words, entirely abstaining from bodily pleasures.’ (Ancient Indian. Laws of Manu. ERE ii. 98) ‘He who is unmoved, who has restrained his senses … is said to be devoted. As a flame in a windless place that flickers not, so is the devoted.’ (Ancient Indian. Bhagavad gita. ERE ii 90) (c) ‘Is not the love of Wisdom a practice of death?’ (Ancient Greek. Plato, Phadeo, 81 A) ‘I know that I hung on the gallows for nine nights, wounded with the spear as a sacrifice to Odin, myself offered to Myself.’ (Old Norse. Hávamál, I. 10 in Corpus Poeticum Boreale; stanza 139 in Hildebrand’s Lieder der Älteren Edda. 1922) ‘Verily, verily I say to you unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit. He who loves his life loses it.’ (Christian. John 12:24,25)StephenB
December 11, 2013
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show me this objective morality of yours. Where can I find it? Good question. SB ? WJM ?Graham2
December 11, 2013
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CS #142: That individuals differ in their moral views is evidence that morality is subjective.
One question: is it appropriate for a epistemological solipsist to make this argument? I mean ... individuals as in plural?Box
December 11, 2013
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In other words, your prefer to avoid accepting a particular premise because of your subjective repugnance of the consequence or conclusion.
If there was a compelling rational reason to accept a premise I subjectively found repugnant, I'd set aside my repugnance and adopt the premise.William J Murray
December 11, 2013
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In other words, your prefer to avoid accepting a particular premise because of your subjective repugnance of the consequence or conclusion.
I've already agreed that all my experiences and interpretations (and reactions) are subjective in nature. Where you and I differ is whether or not we believe an objectively existent commodity is causing those subjective reactions.William J Murray
December 11, 2013
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SB, won’t answer the question, but if you’d like to tell us what the objective morality is, and where we can find it, that might be interesting.
There are aspects to "mind" that are objective commodities in an existent mental world our minds are part of, just as our physical bodies are part of an objective, existent physical landscape. Logic, math, geometry and morality are objectively existent mental commodities. "Mind" is a sloppy term for a many different non-physical commodities; some of these commodities are purely subjective, some are not. One can sense the objectively existent moral "landscape", so to speak, with their conscience, and can refine their correct relationship to that landscape with logic.William J Murray
December 11, 2013
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WJM, Well, you basically did make a stab of it earlier:
My argument for adopting the premise that morality is objective in nature is predicated upon that conclusion being unacceptable to the person I am arguing with. Yes, it is an argument from consequence, but given that we cannot prove which premise is true, the consequences of those premises are all we have to determine which we should adopt. I cannot accept that conclusion, therefore I must adopt the premise that doesn’t lead to that conclusion.
In other words, your prefer to avoid accepting a particular premise because of your subjective repugnance of the consequence or conclusion. It's still subjective no matter how you slice it.CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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WJM: I have no reason to argue with you further; you agree to the conclusions that are necessarily inferred from your premise.
You are correct. SB, won't answer the question, but if you'd like to tell us what the objective morality is, and where we can find it, that might be interesting. Happy HolidaysCentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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StephenB,
CS: No contradiction. I have views, I assert those views and sometimes fight for them. That’s not a contradiction. I don’t have to justify them beyond the fact that I think they are correct views. If you don’t like it, too bad. SB: It is definitely a contradiction to say that you don’t believe in objective morality and, at the same time, to say you believe that some things are “good” and “bad,” or should be allowed.
When I say they are good or bad, it is implied, given my philosophy, that I'm saying I believe they are good, and I believe they are bad. I make no objective moral declarations. If I did, then you would be right. But I don't.
There is no question about it. Your lack of understanding about the meanings of words does not change the reality.
I think it's closer to the truth that you make a lot of unfounded assumptions you when have discussions with people, and have trouble keeping the material straight.
CS: If you are appealing to some objective morality, what is it, where can I find this objective morality of yours? SB: That is another illogical statement. By definition, objective morality cannot be my exclusive morality. It can only be “the” morality to which I willingly accept or stubbornly reject.
I'm asking you what this objective morality is? (I didn't ask for your "exclusive morality.") Where do I find it? Still no straight answer from you or WJM despite the repeated enquiries from me and others.
SB: They knew their views were objective just as I know their views were objective. Your lack of understanding about their political philosophy does not change the facts.
Whatever. I'm not interested in going down that rabbit trail any further since you won't give us a straight answer about what the objective morality is, and where it can be found.
CS: There is no such thing as natural rights. SB: Your dogmatism would put any religious fanatic to shame. It really is amazing to observe you as you make such a bold declaration about a subject that you just learned about an hour ago. You should read those [founding] documents sometime.
(Chuckle)
CS: So I ask: shows me this objective morality of yours. Where can I find it? SB: I will provide it for you in due time. It is a little early in the process to provide such extensive information only to have it mindlessly dismissed. That comes a little later.
Haha. So what if I "mindlessly dismiss" it? You have an opportunity to show the world how correct you are, and how foolish us subjectivists are. I knew you couldn't deliver the goods. I'm getting bored with you. Happy Holidays.CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer
No contradiction. I have views, I assert those views and sometimes fight for them. That’s not a contradiction. I don’t have to justify them beyond the fact that I think they are correct views. If you don’t like it, too bad.
It is definitely a contradiction to say that you don’t believe in objective morality and, at the same time, to say you believe that some things are “good” and “bad,” or should be allowed. There is no question about it. Your lack of understanding about the meanings of words does not change the reality.
If you are appealing to some objective morality, what is it, where can I find this objective morality of yours?
That is another illogical statement. By definition, objective morality cannot be my exclusive morality. It can only be “the” morality to which I willingly accept or stubbornly reject.
Sorry, the founders were mistaken about it if they thought their views were objective.
They knew their views were objective just as I know their views were objective. Your lack of understanding about their political philosophy does not change the facts. At least, though, you now know what they believed, as opposed to what you thought they believed prior to my intervention.
There is no such thing as natural rights.
Your dogmatism would put any religious fanatic to shame. It really is amazing to observe you as you make such a bold declaration about a subject that you just learned about an hour ago. You should read those [founding]documents sometime.
I have, and I respect why they believed the way they do. But they were subjective opinions, the products of their times.
Since you claim to have read the documents, tell me where and how they refer to the natural moral law. Feel free to Google in order to find the answer.
So I ask: shows me this objective morality of yours. Where can I find it?
I will provide it for you in due time. It is a little early in the process to provide such extensive information only to have it mindlessly dismissed. That comes a little later.StephenB
December 11, 2013
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At any rate, being a Solopsist doesn’t affect the discussion we’ve been having.
I have no reason to argue with you further; you agree to the conclusions that are necessarily inferred from your premise.William J Murray
December 11, 2013
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KRock, Your description is metaphysical solispsism not epistemological. So, you are right in your description in that it describes the metaphysical view. But, again, I hold to the epistemologically view, not the metaphysical view. Hope that helps.CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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KRock: My understanding of Solispsism is that it’s a belief that “your” own mental state(s) are the only state(s) that truely exist, everything else is a figment of your imagination. No, that's not Solispsism. But to clarify, I am an epistemological Solispsist, not a metaphysical one. From the Wikipedia page: Solipsism ... is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. As an epistemological position [which I hold], solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure. The external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside the mind. (Or if they do exist, exist in radically different sense than is apprehended.) As a metaphysical position [which I do not hold], solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist. As such it is the only epistemological position that, by its own postulate, is both irrefutable and yet indefensible in the same manner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism Hope that helpsCentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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SB: Further, your morality is only about your good=–not about the common good. CS: Incorrect and non-sequitur to anything I’ve written. SB: For you, there is no such thing as “the” good, there only what you desire.
However, what I desire and "feel is right" pertains to the good of others than myself. So your statement is incorrect, and non-sequitur to anything I've written.
You have made it clear that your morality is based solely on your personal wants. The common good is based on the inherent dignity of the human person, which is an objective moral principle that you reject.
But part of my desires is to minimize suffering in other people and maximize their happiness. So again, you are incorrect.
CS: People with subjective morality can agree, form a consensus and act as a group. No need to invoke a mythical undemonstrable objective morality. SB: People cannot come together on the major moral issues.
They can't? I do it all the time. For example, I "come together" with anti-abortion groups that are against late term abortion without agreeing with their religion or having the slightest concern whether or not our views on the subject are subjective or "objective."
I gather, for example, that you support abortion and gay marriage.
I support abortion only in limited case. Gay marriage, I couldn't care less about one way or the other, personally. But as a libertarian (small L), I lean toward more freedom. But gay marriage is not something I spend much time thinking about.
I reject both. There is no way to form a consensus on either matter without one of us giving ground.
Of course there can be no consensus on such issues between people who strongly disagree. People fight about it, and the stronger wins. That's the way the world works.
I am still waiting for an answer. How should this problem be settled?
Consensus building and warfare, cultural, and physical at times. There is no other way. That's how the world works.
CS: Now you are referring to the morality (objective morality) when you allude to what “is good and bad” and “what should be allowed and disallowed.” No one who disavows objective morality, as you do, can also appeal to what is good and bad and what should be allowed.
Of course they do. I do it all the time.
You may do it all the time, but you contradict yourself every time you do it.
No contradiction. I have views, I assert those views and sometimes fight for them. That's not a contradiction. I don't have to justify them beyond the fact that I think they are correct views. If you don't like it, too bad.
What “is” good or bad is objective; what you prefer is subjective.
Mere vacuous labeling. The fact is, people have subjective views, like minded people group together and try to get their views enforced contra other groups with differing views. That's the way the world works. And each individual is asserting a subjective view.
What should be allowed or not allowed is objective;
No it isn't. It's a matter of subjective opinion.
what you prefer to be alowed (sic) or not allowed is subjective.
Are you saying you have no preference about what should be allowed or not? If you do, then by definition, it's a subjective preference. If you are appealing to some objective morality, what is it, where can I find this objective morality of yours?
You claim not to believe in objective morality, but you often forget yourself and appeal to it, as you did in this case.
No, I only appeal to my own morality, and join with like-minded others to get it enforced when it's important enough to me. What else is there to appeal to?
CS: They were men tired of imperial oppression and figured that if there is a God, he probably wants humans to govern themselves. This is hardly objective. What they believed in was subjective adjudications of their own minds just like anyone else, regardless of what they called it or what you call it. SB: Absolutely wrong. What they believed has been written in the documents that they have written. Natural rights come from the natural moral law, both of which are objective.
Show me this "natural moral law." Where is it written? Sorry, the founders were mistaken about it if they thought their views were objective. And so are you. They were the product of their times just like anyone else, with a plethora of subjective opinions on how government should be implemented.
You cannot get natural rights from subjective morality.
There is no such thing as natural rights.
Those two ideas are in conflict. You should read those documents sometime.
I have, and I respect why they believed the way they do. But they were subjective opinions, the products of their times. So I ask: shows me this objective morality of yours. Where can I find it?CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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@CentralScrutinizer (144) My understanding of Solispsism is that it's a belief that "your" own mental state(s) are the only state(s) that truely exist, everything else is a figment of your imagination. Other people appear to be alive but they are not, there simply images created in your own mind. That is my understanding of Solispsism anyway... Maybe I'm wrong. How do you convince someone of this belief, let alone explain it to someone? Are you the only source of consciousness? If so, why do you think that? Would not the universe be your creation, thus rendering yourself to be omnipotent, a god so to speak?KRock
December 11, 2013
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WJM: OMG! I’m arguing with a solipsist! I guess that’s something along with the LNC that I should ask at the beginning of every debate. ROFLMAO!!
Uhhh. OK.
Thanks for the entertainment, CS.
Back atcha. So now should I expect you to next tell me that it is self-evidently true to you that your all apprehensions are true? That you know for a fact that other consciousness exists beside your own? That you know for a fact that your subjective models of the "outside world" are basically real and true? Maybe they are and maybe they aren't but you can't prove it to yourself. It's a leap of faith. If you say it isn't, I cannot take you seriously. At any rate, being a Solopsist doesn't affect the discussion we've been having. You like to use the word "objective" when it is nothing more than subjective adjudications. It's not any more complicated than that. You've demonstrated that over and over.CentralScrutinizer
December 11, 2013
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SB: Further, your morality is only about your good=–not about the common good. Central Scrutinizer
Incorrect and non-sequitur to anything I’ve written.
For you, there is no such thing as "the" good, there only what you desire. You have made it clear that your morality is based solely on your personal wants. The common good is based on the inherent dignity of the human person, which is an objective moral principle that you reject.
People with subjective morality can agree, form a consensus and act as a group. No need to invoke a mythical undemonstrable objective morality.
People cannot come together on the major moral issues. I gather, for example, that you support abortion and gay marriage. I reject both. There is no way to form a consensus on either matter without one of us giving ground. I am still waiting for an answer. How should this problem be settled? ------------ Now you are referring to the morality (objective morality) when you allude to what “is good and bad” and “what should be allowed and disallowed.” No one who disavows objective morality, as you do, can also appeal to what is good and bad and what should be allowed.
Of course they do. I do it all the time.
You may do it all the time, but you contradict yourself every time you do it. What "is" good or bad is objective; what you prefer is subjective. What should be allowed or not allowed is objective; what you prefer to be alowed or not allowed is subjective. You claim not to believe in objective morality, but you often forget yourself and appeal to it, as you did in this case.
They were men tired of imperial oppression and figured that if there is a God, he probably wants humans to govern themselves. This is hardly objective. What they believed in was subjective adjudications of their own minds just like anyone else, regardless of what they called it or what you call it.
Absolutely wrong. What they believed has been written in the documents that they have written. Natural rights come from the natural moral law, both of which are objective. You cannot get natural rights from subjective morality. Those two ideas are in conflict. You should read those documents sometime.StephenB
December 11, 2013
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The first paragraph in #145 should be blockquoted, not that it really matters at this point.William J Murray
December 11, 2013
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OMG! I'm arguing with a solipsist! I guess that's something along with the LNC that I should ask at the beginning of every debate. ROFLMAO!! Thanks for the entertainment, CS.William J Murray
December 11, 2013
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