Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

mouse trap illustration vs. 3-glasses-3-knives illustration — Irreducible Complexity, Depth of Integration

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Darwin once remarked the tail of the peacock made him sick because the unnecessary extravagance of nature was suggestive of Intelligent Design. What made Darwin sick then still holds true today, he never solved the problem, and it is more in evidence by the problem of Irreducible Complexity (IC).

To illustrate extravagance, consider the simple goal of getting a card to lie horizontally. This goal is easily achieved. Simply let a card fall down on a table. But one can take the same card and get it to lie horizontally by making part of the flat roof of a house of cards like this one.

irreducible complexity house of cards

Cleary one could argue there is an irreducibly complex core of this system, namely the cards on the lower levels. Removal of a single card from the lower levels would cause a breakdown of the system.

What if a Darwinist said,

the system does not have an irreducibly complex core because I can get a card to lay down horizontally without such an elaborate infrastructure. Further the house of cards is not evidence of intelligent design because the same task of getting a card to lie horizontally is inefficiently achieved. It is bad design because it is frail, and therefore it is not intelligently designed. Therefore the house of cards does not have an irreducibly complex core and further it is evidence of bad design since the same goal can be achieved more simply.

Would we think the objection is silly x 10? Of course we would! Yet Darwinists have made such silly objections, and worse, people like Judge Jones accepted similarly silly objections as valid science in his ruling against Intelligent Design.

What is spectacular about a house of cards is not that the goal can be achieved with the fewest parts, but the goal is achieved with MANY interdependent parts with a great depth of integration. This even more the case with Rube Goldberg Machines. From wiki:

A Rube Goldberg machine, contraption, invention, device, or apparatus is a deliberately over-engineered or overdone machine that performs a very simple task in a very complex fashion, usually including a chain reaction. The expression is named after American cartoonist and inventor Rube Goldberg (1883-1970).

Michael Behe even referenced the Rube-Goldberg machine in his book to describe irreducible complexity.

But Behe also used the a mouse trap consisting of 5-parts to illustrate the notion of irreducible Complexity (IC). A missing part would render the 5-part trap dysfunctional. Darwinists responded by saying mouse traps can be built with 4 parts, therefore, a 5-part mouse trap is not irreducibly complex since 4-part traps can be made. But Darwinists refute an argument that Behe never made. They don’t refute the concept of irreducible complexity, but only a straw man misrepresentation of Irreducible Complexity (IC).

I would argue Rube-Goldberg machines are far more illustrative of the problem irreducible complexity poses for Darwinism than mouse traps. Given the Darwinists misrepresentations, I suggest instead of mouse traps, ID proponents illustrate IC via a 3-glasses-3-knives system (depicted below). I suggest it because it will better resist Darwinist misrepresentations.

Consider the goal of letting a glass of beer be oriented vertically such that the beer doesn’t spill out. This simple goal can be achieved with minimal effort by simply placing the glass of beer on a level table. However the same goal can be achieved by letting it rest on an irreducibly complex system of 3 knives-and 3 glasses arranged in such a way that there is depth of integration in the parts. A video is worth a thousand words:

And that is the real problem irreducible complexity poses, the extravagance involved in doing tasks that can be done more simply.

Despite this, we have Darwinists saying the human blood clotting system is not Irreducibly Complex because there are creatures that implement blood clotting with fewer parts than humans. They also say that the flagellum is not irreducibly complex because we find existence of flagellum proteins in other systems. They might also argue that having extra parts is evidence of imperfect design because the same goal can be achieved with fewer parts.

But such arguments are as silly as saying the 3-glasses-3-knives system in the above video is not irreducibly complex because a glass of beer can remain vertical without such an elaborate system, or that the 3-glass-3-knife system is not irreducibly complex because knives have been co-opted to be used for other purposes, or that the system is not evidence of intelligent design because it is frail and unstable and thus an imperfect design, etc. etc.

Yet similar arguments are in promoted by Darwinists like Ken Miller and Nick Matzke and then accepted by Darwinists like Judge Jones. They seem unwilling or unable to discuss the real arguments being made. So I’m presenting this 3-glasses-3-knives illustration to help cure them of the injuries with Darwinism has inflicted on their ability to think clearly. If they are willing to take the medicine, perhaps they can be cured of their misconceptions!

I think in light of the misrepresentations put forward by Darwinists, the 3-glass-3-knife illustration can be used instead of mouse-traps since it illustrates the Rube-Goldberg concept which Behe put forward.

The problem IC poses for Darwinism is the extravagance of nature. Darwin perceived the problem the extravagance of nature posed for his theory and it made him sick. The problem is not that goals are achieved via the simplest means, but via extravagant and irreducibly complex means with great depth of integration.

Comments
Properly formatted... Pav,
Take a look at this table giving the “genetic code”, and then please explain to me once again why DNA does not “represent” anything.
What? So are you saying that because it can be represented in a table format, with letters representing the individual molecules, that DNA is therefore a code, and since all codes are designed, DNA must have been designed? Any regular physical process can be represented in a table format.
You seem to be making the case for ID here. Indeed, a “representation” is a “human concept”; and humans are intelligent. And ID argues that anything that acts as a representation of something else is the product of intelligence.
Except that DNA doesn't act as a representation of something else. It is a molecule with physical properties which lead to something else.
Further, when you say that the transcriptome “isn’t reading the DNA the way we read blueprints, or books,” you’re entirely correct. The transcriptome is “reading” the DNA like a computer processor reads computer code. But, once again, this requires intelligent agents to compose the code and to build the processor. How did the cell come about without the involvement of an intelligent agent?
This is a completely different argument. We're talking about whether DNA is a representation (which requires an intelligent agent to interpret). Not whether the interpretive system requires an intelligent agent to assemble.lastyearon
March 28, 2012
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Pav,
Take a look at this table giving the “genetic code”, and then please explain to me once again why DNA does not “represent” anything. What? So are you saying that because it can be represented in a table format, with letters representing the individual molecules, that DNA is therefore a code, and since all codes are designed, DNA must have been designed? Any regular physical process can be represented in a table format.
You seem to be making the case for ID here. Indeed, a “representation” is a “human concept”; and humans are intelligent. And ID argues that anything that acts as a representation of something else is the product of intelligence.
Except that DNA doesn't act as a representation of something else. It is a molecule with physical properties which lead to something else.
Further, when you say that the transcriptome “isn’t reading the DNA the way we read blueprints, or books,” you’re entirely correct. The transcriptome is “reading” the DNA like a computer processor reads computer code. But, once again, this requires intelligent agents to compose the code and to build the processor. How did the cell come about without the involvement of an intelligent agent?
This is a completely different argument. We're talking about whether DNA is a representation (which requires an intelligent agent to interpret). Not whether the interpretive system requires an intelligent agent to assemble.
lastyearon
March 28, 2012
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UBP, Substitute intelligent agent for human being, and my point still stands. Representations (or symbols) can be arbitrary. It takes an intelligent agent to recognize the representation for what it represents. A gene is not a symbol of it's protein. It's a molecule with physical properties which cause chemical reactions that lead to the synthesis of proteins.lastyearon
March 28, 2012
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Nick, I understand that you do not intend to engage the issues raised here, particularly those in post #77 (and #57 before it). That is unfortunate.Upright BiPed
March 28, 2012
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A linguistic system needs human beings (intelligent agents) to create and understand it.
As already stated, when a bee returning to the hive dances in a particular way during flight, the other bees will see that dance and can respond to it by flying in the correct direction to reach the feeding grounds. They respond to the dance based upon the pattern it contains. A particular dance is mapped to a particular response. Does this communication require a human in order to operate? When you use your vocal chords to make the sound of the human word “heal” and your dog sits; did you communicate with yourself alone? The representation in this instance is the sound “heal”, the intended effect of that representation is to get the dog to sit. You then voice the sound and the dog sits. Did only you understand the representation? Or, has the dog acquired the protocol to actualize the representation for himself? How about in the case of the grunts and clicks of a whale? Did those require a human to understand them as well? Your position is an anthropocentric trainwreck. Linguistics is often referred to as the study of (specifically) human communication. If that is the extent to which you use the word, then the word “linguistics” is inappropriate to these observations (as can be repeatedly demonstrated from examples throughout the living kingdom). If on the other hand, you use the word to indicate (as some definitions provide) the study of communication through conventionalized representations then perhaps it is more acceptable. The point is that you can call this phenomena anything you wish; the observations being made here come from an inventory of coherently-understood physical processes. As such, those observations are not subject to definitional skirmishes over loaded terms, except to the extend that someone would willfully impose those loaded definitons above the material observations themselves. It is the operation of the material system that is at issue. And on that point, you have once again simply asserted that DNA does not follow the observations made, yet you failed (once again) to point out the material distinction in the two systems. Is it your intention to suggest; "The systems are operationally identical, but even so, one is different than the other based on an unknowable quality which can be neither seen nor described".Upright BiPed
March 28, 2012
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NickMatzke: [It would be helpful if you put "PaV" before the blockquotes; it makes it easier to identify your responses. Thanks.]
It is also the case that molecule #1 and #2 are identical. These aren’t contradictory statements. Thus, in this case (which is at least conceivable, whether or not such a thing can exist in real life), represented = representation.
In mathematics, many differential equations have, e.g., x = 0, as a solution. But the solution is considered, and so-called, "trivial", since it tells you nothing at all about the mathematics. It strikes me that self-copying is but a trivial example of one thing representing another. As you say above, they're identical. So they tell us nothing new. Love=love; hate=hate; birds=birds, tigers =tigers, and so forth. But dictionaries have something else for the right hand side of the equations above. IOW, meaningful information.PaV
March 28, 2012
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lastyearon: No, DNA doesn’t really “represent” anything. Take a look at this table giving the "genetic code", and then please explain to me once again why DNA does not "represent" anything. Humans can think of it as a representation, but that’s misleading, because representations are human concepts. DNA is a molecule, with chemical properties that in certain circumstances result (indirectly) in proteins. The transcriptome isn’t intelligent. It isn’t reading the DNA the way we read blueprints, or books. It’s reacting chemically, via natural processes. You seem to be making the case for ID here. Indeed, a "representation" is a "human concept"; and humans are intelligent. And ID argues that anything that acts as a representation of something else is the product of intelligence. Further, when you say that the transcriptome "isn’t reading the DNA the way we read blueprints, or books," you're entirely correct. The transcriptome is "reading" the DNA like a computer processor reads computer code. But, once again, this requires intelligent agents to compose the code and to build the processor. How did the cell come about without the involvement of an intelligent agent? A drawing of a bar stool doesn’t build a bar stool. The phrase “bar stool” doesn’t build a bar stool. If you saw a drawing of a bar stool, what would you call it?PaV
March 28, 2012
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A linguistic system needs human beings (intelligent agents) to create and understand it. DNA does not.
How do you know DNA does not need intelligent agents to create and understand it? But anyway DNA, as with a computer program, is useless without a system that recognizes and knows what to do with it.Joe
March 28, 2012
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Nick, Genghis Khan was real. Your common ancestors are imagined. With cladistics and phylogeny they- those alleged ancestors- will always be imagined.Joe
March 28, 2012
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Nick Matzke:
Assertions of creationist purity and righteousness in the face of this kind of stuff, which is obvious and well-known, are just incredible.
LoL! Nick, I have more than had it with you and your ilk, Dawkins, Coyne, Scott, Branch, et al., and I am willing and able to get down in the mud with you guys. That is my short-coming- I will dish back and will not keep turning my cheeks. Thank you for letting me clear that up.Joe
March 28, 2012
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to the statement that this is evidence that the ancestors inferred on a phylogeny never existed, is mind-bogglingly wrong.
That's not what I said! I merely pointing out you are appealing to links that are ALWAYS missing, not just in fact, but also in principle like the common ancestor protostomes and deuterostomes. The IC argument argues that missing links are missing not only because we can't find them, but from a mechanical standpoint, they did't exist even in principle. Gould said it well, "what good is half a wing". Here here. And no, you're not wasting your time here. You're learning the truth. If you don't, the truth will haunt you the rest of your life because you'll be basing your arguments on missing links which will never be found, not because they are extinct and left no trace, but because they never existed in the first place. If you relied instead on the intended meaning of what ID proponents put forward versus your distorted misrepresentations of what you claim they said, maybe you'll see the indefensibility of your position. That said, I admire and respect your hard work and excellent writings, they are a great contribution to science, but they fundamentally miss the point, and the day will come your own research my be used to refute your intended goal of proving Darwin correct.scordova
March 28, 2012
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even if supposing we can’t formally prove something is a representation, the fact that we humans find it analogous to a linguistic system is something Darwinsim or the laws of physics cannot explain.
A linguistic system needs human beings (intelligent agents) to create and understand it. DNA does not. It's a chemical process, that results in protein (and therefore life). We can consider a gene to be a representation of a protein, but that is only for our own comprehension. So analogizing between DNA and language is misleading. Consider your shadow. It can be considered a representation of you, and it contains information about lots of things, like your shape, the season, the time of day. But that doesn't mean it was intelligently designed, does it?lastyearon
March 28, 2012
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66 scordovaMarch 27, 2012 at 5:55 am
Thus, if the T3SS group is a clade sister to a flagellum clade, then there is a common ancestor on that phylogeny with the 10 or so T3SS proteins that is not reconstructed as a flagellum. This looks pretty much like a secretion system.
But ya see Nick, the missing common ancestor is always MISSING! Don’t you recall our conversation loong time ago about transformed cladists who fell out of favor with Dawkins for pointing out we see all related as sister groups with no one ancestral to another!
Sal, this is extremely silly. Of course phylogenies are phylogenies of the specimens you have. None of the speciments you have sitting here in the modern day is going to be ancestral to any other specimen sitting here in the modern day -- after all, they are here in the modern day! This is just an automatic fact about phylogenies of molecular sequences. But to jump from this boring automatic fact about phylogenies and the fact that you only have the sequences that are living now, to the statement that this is evidence that the ancestors inferred on a phylogeny never existed, is mind-bogglingly wrong. It's precisely like saying the following: a high percentage of central asians and Mongolians share an identical or nearly identical Y-chromosome sequence which is thought to trace back to Genghis Khan. But, because Genghis Khan doesn't exist now, "the missing common ancestor is missing", so we can be confident that Genghis Khan never existed, because he doesn't exist today. Ugh. And I just spent valuable minutes of my life explaining something totally obvious to rebut a half-baked creationist objection (not even half-baked...1% baked!) which should never have seen the light of day, and wouldn't have if you did a little thinking and reading instead of just tossing out uninformed-but-bizarrely-confident broadsides at evolution. I think I'm done with this thread. Get back to me when you can demonstrate interest in a serious, well-informed discussion.NickMatzke_UD
March 28, 2012
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Joe writes,
82 JoeMarch 28, 2012 at 4:41 am Nick Matzke: Imagine that you have a single individual self-copying polymer. Imagine? LoL! Nick, please demonstrate there is such a thing as “a single individual self-copying polymer”. Geez Nick, imagination is NOT evidence.
Joe, you are being extremely silly. This original sub-discussion was explicitly about what was conceivable. It started with this post:
42 Upright BiPedMarch 26, 2012 at 1:50 pm Nick, the last time I approached you on the topic of biological information, you side-stepped the issue like a cowgirl on a dance floor. I wonder if you might try to enagage in earnest this time. Will you bring your advanced intellect to bear on these three pertinent questions regarding the existence of information within a material universe: 1) In this material universe, is it even conceivably possible to record transferable information without utilizing an arrangement of matter in order to represent that information? (by what other means could it be done?) 2) If 1 is true, then is it even conceivably possible to transfer that information without a second arrangement of matter (a protocol) to establish the relationship between representation and what it represents? (how could such a relationship be established in any other way?) 3) If 1 and 2 are true, then is it even conceivably possible to functionally transfer information without the irreducibly complex system of these two arrangements of matter (representations and protocols) in operation?
Go bug BiPed if you don't like the setup. And PS: Sal -- if you want to find a creationist and UD participant far, far worse than the Gnu Atheists have been to me, look no further than Joe and his blog: http://intelligentreasoning.blogspot.com/ ...which is obvious and well-known. Assertions of creationist purity and righteousness in the face of this kind of stuff, which is obvious and well-known, are just incredible.NickMatzke_UD
March 28, 2012
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If it was created by a human being for the purpose of representing something, then it’s a representation.
1. biological creatures other than humans use representation to convey information -- http://bihartimes.in/Maneka/animalmoms.html 2. even if supposing we can't formally prove something is a representation, the fact that we humans find it analogous to a linguistic system is something Darwinsim or the laws of physics cannot explain. It qualifies as specified complexity. The No Free Lunch theorems apply in demonstrating such analogies do not spontaneously arise in physcial systems where representation is in evidence. It doesn't formally prove ID, but if formally refutes Darwinism.scordova
March 28, 2012
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Art:
I was commenting on the implication in Genomicus’ comment that components with no obvious antecedent in some way pose a problem for the evolution of the flagellum. Nick picked up on where I was going (even before my comment appeared!) and pointed out the problems that Genomicus’ line of thought holds for the concept of IC.
Except Nick doesn't understand the concept of IC and he thinks imagination = evidence.Joe
March 28, 2012
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Nick Matzke:
Imagine that you have a single individual self-copying polymer.
Imagine? LoL! Nick, please demonstrate there is such a thing as "a single individual self-copying polymer". Geez Nick, imagination is NOT evidence.Joe
March 28, 2012
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lastyearon @79: What a hoot! Only counts if it was created by a human. Gotta love the (il)logic. :)Eric Anderson
March 27, 2012
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LYO, I see you've reasserted your claim, but I don't see where you've pointed out the material distinction between the two physical systems. Surely you envision a material difference in the two systems, otherwise they would operate the same.Upright BiPed
March 27, 2012
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If it was created by a human being for the purpose of representing something, then it's a representation.lastyearon
March 27, 2012
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LYO,
No, DNA doesn’t really “represent” anything.
If in one system we have something that is a genuine representation, and in another system we have something that only appears to be a representation, then surely you can look at the physical evidence, and point out that distinction. Will you please point out that distinction?Upright BiPed
March 27, 2012
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This proceeds directly from Shannon’s work …
Hi Sal, You are correct, but the issue also has physical entailments which must be satisfied. With due respect to all the brilliant research work, the direct-templating proponent will see variation coming from the environment (or elsewhere) and come to depend upon it for something it doesn't have the capacity to give. This is exactly the position taken by Gerald Joyce. He designed a two part RNA that, if broken apart and fed sub-units, could replicate itself through each halve serving as a template for the other. He then introduced variant sub-units, and as sure as sunshine, they were incorporated into the process. This was, of course, heralded as ‘a step toward creating life’. The problem here is a physical one, and it's the physicality that must be addressed. His results end with the same direct templating process it started with (trivially altered by a variant). But such systems do not achieve, and cannot demonstrate, the material architecture of the representational systems they are designed to mimic. A representation (to operate as a representation) requires a materially-isolated protocol to physically establish the relationship between the representation and the effect it represents within a system. Otherwise that relationship wouldn't exist. Furthermore, that protocol does not (along with the representation itself) ever become the product of the system. Direct-templating proponents ignore these entailments, even as they visibly exist in the very systems they intend to replicate. And variation within the sequence itself has no material power to establish a physical protocol which (as demonstrated) it must be isolated from in order for the representation to even exist. It's worth remembering here that the system operates by variation in the sequence as a normal part of the process, while the protocol remains constant. Variation in the sequence has no effect on the protocol, while variation in the protocol flirts with catastrophic failure of the system. Protein synthesis is solely dependent upon the sequence in DNA as that pattern is transcribed to mRNA, and then used to order charged tRNA within the ribosome. That chain of transfer falls under the determining control of interactions between bases. But the appearance of a particular amino acid at the binding site of the polypeptide is not determined by the interaction between bases (even as those interactions continue between codons and anticodons). The effect is therefore not inherent to the properties of sequence. They share a relationship established remotely by the aminoacyl synthetases, undetermined by the material make up of the original sequence itself (but instead, determined by the material make-up of the protocol). This is what I was trying to indicate to Nick; in direct templating, the product can be reduced to the constituents of the system which become that result, but that is not the case in the instance of a representational system; they are neither reducible to the constituents, nor do they become the result. One may say then, 'we find it like this today, but it did not begin this way'. But that realization doesn't change of word of the observations, it only highlights the supposed transition. How far up the chain of complexity can you get with nothing but physical information – without the representation-protocol-effect system we see at work today? However far that is, it'll need to be capable of creating a semiotic state in order to go any further.Upright BiPed
March 27, 2012
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Art:
What unique irreducibly-complex structure(s) do these “many flagellar proteins” that have no obvious antecedent form?
The flagellar proteins that have no known pre-cursor parts form (obviously) a flagellum. Not sure what you're driving at here?Genomicus
March 27, 2012
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From a strictly logical point of view, if a physical configuration is a “representation” of something else, and you “copy” the “representation”, then it is no more than a second “representation”; it is certainly NOT that which is “represented”.
I don't know about that. Imagine that you have a single individual self-copying polymer. Later, it copies itself. Now you have two such polymers. Where did the second polymer come from? Its "information" was present in the first polymer, but it had not yet been instantiated. If one is going to insist on using information-speak, it sure seems like molecule #2 was "represented" in molecule #1. It is also the case that molecule #1 and #2 are identical. These aren't contradictory statements. Thus, in this case (which is at least conceivable, whether or not such a thing can exist in real life), represented = representation.NickMatzke_UD
March 27, 2012
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Our PCs react electrically, via natural processes, but that doesn't mean nature produced our PCs. In order to transcribe you require knowledge. In order to translate you require knowledge. The transcriptome is as intelligent as any computer program, which traces its intelligence back to its designer.Joe
March 27, 2012
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Dr. Hunt, Do you agree with Nick’s count of 2 unique and essential? I see no reason, yet, to disagree except on the grounds that the BLAST searches found sequences that aren’t expressed.
1. Art works just fine. 2. I was commenting on the implication in Genomicus' comment that components with no obvious antecedent in some way pose a problem for the evolution of the flagellum. Nick picked up on where I was going (even before my comment appeared!) and pointed out the problems that Genomicus' line of thought holds for the concept of IC.
PS (I don’t know why your comment was delayed. Do you get routed to some sort of moderation buffer or something?)
Every time.Arthur Hunt
March 27, 2012
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No, DNA doesn't really "represent" anything. Humans can think of it as a representation, but that's misleading, because representations are human concepts. DNA is a molecule, with chemical properties that in certain circumstances result (indirectly) in proteins. The transcriptome isn't intelligent. It isn't reading the DNA the way we read blueprints, or books. It's reacting chemically, via natural processes. A drawing of a bar stool doesn't build a bar stool. The phrase "bar stool" doesn't build a bar stool.lastyearon
March 27, 2012
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lastyearon: DNA must be transcribed to RNA. This involves an extremely complex "machine" called the transcriptome. It involves numbers of proteins itself. Then the transcribed DNA, has to be built up into a protein using transfer-RNAs and the ribosome. A sequence of DNA "represents" the protein that is the final product of this process, but DNA consists of nucleotides, and proteins consist of amino acids. Now, when you say: DNA is instruction to build proteins. It’s not a representation of life, isn't this equivalent to saying that the description of a bar stool is not a "representation" of a "bar." I suppose that's true. But I wasn't talking about a bar. However, what would be a bar without any bar stools?PaV
March 27, 2012
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DNA is instruction to build proteins. No, DNA may contain the instructions to build proteins, but the DNA is not the instructions. And your position can't account for DNA.Joe
March 27, 2012
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Pav, DNA is instruction to build proteins. It's not a representation of life. It doesn't need a separate protocol/system to take the representation and build it. So it's nothing like your picture of a bar stool.lastyearon
March 27, 2012
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