Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

mouse trap illustration vs. 3-glasses-3-knives illustration — Irreducible Complexity, Depth of Integration

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Darwin once remarked the tail of the peacock made him sick because the unnecessary extravagance of nature was suggestive of Intelligent Design. What made Darwin sick then still holds true today, he never solved the problem, and it is more in evidence by the problem of Irreducible Complexity (IC).

To illustrate extravagance, consider the simple goal of getting a card to lie horizontally. This goal is easily achieved. Simply let a card fall down on a table. But one can take the same card and get it to lie horizontally by making part of the flat roof of a house of cards like this one.

irreducible complexity house of cards

Cleary one could argue there is an irreducibly complex core of this system, namely the cards on the lower levels. Removal of a single card from the lower levels would cause a breakdown of the system.

What if a Darwinist said,

the system does not have an irreducibly complex core because I can get a card to lay down horizontally without such an elaborate infrastructure. Further the house of cards is not evidence of intelligent design because the same task of getting a card to lie horizontally is inefficiently achieved. It is bad design because it is frail, and therefore it is not intelligently designed. Therefore the house of cards does not have an irreducibly complex core and further it is evidence of bad design since the same goal can be achieved more simply.

Would we think the objection is silly x 10? Of course we would! Yet Darwinists have made such silly objections, and worse, people like Judge Jones accepted similarly silly objections as valid science in his ruling against Intelligent Design.

What is spectacular about a house of cards is not that the goal can be achieved with the fewest parts, but the goal is achieved with MANY interdependent parts with a great depth of integration. This even more the case with Rube Goldberg Machines. From wiki:

A Rube Goldberg machine, contraption, invention, device, or apparatus is a deliberately over-engineered or overdone machine that performs a very simple task in a very complex fashion, usually including a chain reaction. The expression is named after American cartoonist and inventor Rube Goldberg (1883-1970).

Michael Behe even referenced the Rube-Goldberg machine in his book to describe irreducible complexity.

But Behe also used the a mouse trap consisting of 5-parts to illustrate the notion of irreducible Complexity (IC). A missing part would render the 5-part trap dysfunctional. Darwinists responded by saying mouse traps can be built with 4 parts, therefore, a 5-part mouse trap is not irreducibly complex since 4-part traps can be made. But Darwinists refute an argument that Behe never made. They don’t refute the concept of irreducible complexity, but only a straw man misrepresentation of Irreducible Complexity (IC).

I would argue Rube-Goldberg machines are far more illustrative of the problem irreducible complexity poses for Darwinism than mouse traps. Given the Darwinists misrepresentations, I suggest instead of mouse traps, ID proponents illustrate IC via a 3-glasses-3-knives system (depicted below). I suggest it because it will better resist Darwinist misrepresentations.

Consider the goal of letting a glass of beer be oriented vertically such that the beer doesn’t spill out. This simple goal can be achieved with minimal effort by simply placing the glass of beer on a level table. However the same goal can be achieved by letting it rest on an irreducibly complex system of 3 knives-and 3 glasses arranged in such a way that there is depth of integration in the parts. A video is worth a thousand words:

And that is the real problem irreducible complexity poses, the extravagance involved in doing tasks that can be done more simply.

Despite this, we have Darwinists saying the human blood clotting system is not Irreducibly Complex because there are creatures that implement blood clotting with fewer parts than humans. They also say that the flagellum is not irreducibly complex because we find existence of flagellum proteins in other systems. They might also argue that having extra parts is evidence of imperfect design because the same goal can be achieved with fewer parts.

But such arguments are as silly as saying the 3-glasses-3-knives system in the above video is not irreducibly complex because a glass of beer can remain vertical without such an elaborate system, or that the 3-glass-3-knife system is not irreducibly complex because knives have been co-opted to be used for other purposes, or that the system is not evidence of intelligent design because it is frail and unstable and thus an imperfect design, etc. etc.

Yet similar arguments are in promoted by Darwinists like Ken Miller and Nick Matzke and then accepted by Darwinists like Judge Jones. They seem unwilling or unable to discuss the real arguments being made. So I’m presenting this 3-glasses-3-knives illustration to help cure them of the injuries with Darwinism has inflicted on their ability to think clearly. If they are willing to take the medicine, perhaps they can be cured of their misconceptions!

I think in light of the misrepresentations put forward by Darwinists, the 3-glass-3-knife illustration can be used instead of mouse-traps since it illustrates the Rube-Goldberg concept which Behe put forward.

The problem IC poses for Darwinism is the extravagance of nature. Darwin perceived the problem the extravagance of nature posed for his theory and it made him sick. The problem is not that goals are achieved via the simplest means, but via extravagant and irreducibly complex means with great depth of integration.

Comments
How many of those 15 remaining proteins are actually required for flagellar function?
Only 2 are unique according to your excellent paper!scordova
March 26, 2012
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So, instead of 30, it was actually 15. To my mind’s eye, Minnich’s analysis is still fundamentally correct, though the degree of his correctness is diminished: i.e., instead of being “astronomically” correct, he is only “extremely” correct.
You're doing better than most, but you're not there yet. Keep reading. How many of those 15 remaining proteins are actually required for flagellar function?NickMatzke_UD
March 26, 2012
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By the way, no disrespect intended to the very fine work done by Nick in his papers. It is first rate quality, and he is a first rate Darwinist. I'm merely pointing out, the paper does not demonstrate the level of detail that estimates the probability of formation of the flagellum via his model. I'm not saying his model is incorrect, but one ought to score the probability that evolution can follow that path.scordova
March 26, 2012
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Just like the problem of properly positioned co-opted parts to form the 3-glasses-3-knives system, in similar manner the evolution of the assembly instructions is what Matzke and Pallen COMPLETELY ignore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Minnich said in Unlocking the mystery of life, that even supposing all the proteins are co-opted, the synthesis of the assembly instructions are not! From Biologos http://biologos.org/blog/self-assembly-of-the-bacterial-flagellum-no-intelligence-required
Other scientists have looked at how the timing of the assembly process is controlled at the genetic level. The genes that contain the instructions for making all the protein components of the flagellum are organized in a number of clusters called operons. Each operon is read when its “master sequence” is activated like a light switch. When the switch is flipped, the genes in that particular operon are interpreted by the cell so that the corresponding proteins are made. It turns out that the genes needed to produce proteins in the base of the flagellum are activated first. Once the base is complete, a clever feedback mechanism flips the next switch, activating the next set of genes, which allows later stages of assembly to occur, and so on. (It’s actually more complicated than that, but you get the idea.) So the parts of the flagellum are made “just in time,” shortly before each piece is needed.
Just like the 3-glasses-3-knives analogy, the parts have to be properly positioned. NOTHING in Matzke's paper addresses the evolution of assembly instruction. NOTHING. The insinuation is if we have homology or sequence similarity in proteins, then we can suppose Darwinism can create the assembly instructions. In the paper, Matzke say something like "this structure part is similar to that structure, therefore it is plausibly evolved from that". I would agree that many of his examples are the closest conceptual precursors possible, but it is yet a gigantic problem to create assembly instructions that: 0. create the parts 1. assemble part in the proper sequence 2. assemble parts in the right 3D location 3. assemble parts with the correct timing I mean, how much homology can you find to do that? NO calculations provided for the probability of evolving assembly instructions. See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLTFiekwFy8scordova
March 26, 2012
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Genomicus: You wrote: I believe Dr. Matzke’s point in that PT article is not to address if the argument of irreducible complexity has been answered. Rather, IMHO, his point was to provide evidence that the flagellum did in fact evolve from pre-cursor parts. I disagree with your analysis. His main point seems to be that Scott Minnich, and all the IDers, are way wrong when it comes to representing the flagellum as discontinuous with other life forms. He says they're "way wrong", or something to that effect. He seems to be content in showing that there is more homology present than Minnich states; thus Minnich is wrong; and therefore, the ID argument falls apart. I think he's being deceptive and, perhaps, intellectually dishonest---though, more likely, it is simply a bias on his part. Here's a quote from the PT post that is taken from his Nature article: ID advocates say that their position is supported by discontinuities between the flagellum and the rest of the biological world, just as a designed entity like a watch differs from an undesigned entity, such as a stone. In support of this line of reasoning, Scott Minnich in his expert witness report claimed that “the other thirty proteins in the flagellar motor (that are not present in the type III secretion system) are unique to the motor and are not found in any other living system.” As our discussion shows, this is not true. Instead, we have detected sequence homologies linking flagellar components to the rest of the biological universe (Table 1). IOW, Minnich is wrong. It's not 30 non-homologous proteins; it's only 15. But, of course, they have no way of accounting for how the 15 proteins came about. Of course, as you point out, all of these proteins have to be hooked up, linked together in some functional way. All of this is just waved away. "An ERROR has been detected. All bets are off. Their argument doesn't hold water." In the search for the truth, this is an evasive type of thinking.PaV
March 26, 2012
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Thanks Joe!scordova
March 26, 2012
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Joe, Thank you. Do you have a citation we can link to?
Flagellum evolution in Nature Reviews Microbiology (Pallen & Matzke) Robert McNab, "Flagella and Motility," in Escherichia Coli and Salmonella: Cellular and Molecular Biology, 2 vols., ed. F. C. Neidhart et al. pages 123-145 "Edge of Evolution" pages 261-268Joe
March 26, 2012
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A car might have homologous parts to parts in a motorcycle, but that's not the same as saying a car co-opts an entire motor cycle. You can't simply remove parts out of car and end up with a functioning motorcycle. You can pull out the spark plug, and you'd still have a functioning radio and light system, but not an entire motor cycle. So its not really correct to say that a car co-opts a motor cycle or a motor cycle coopts a car is it? Yet the NCSE asserts a comparably silly statement:
Even if it turns out that the type 3 secretion system is derived from the flagellum, it will still prove that (a) Behe was wrong that reduced subsets of "irreducibly complex" systems "are by definition not functional",
NO! NO! NO! Co-opting homologous parts is not the same as co-opting entire functioning systems! All that is demonstrated is the sharing of some homologous parts, that's absolutely not the same as one system (like the flagellum) containing an entire, fully functioning TTSS! This is like claiming a car co-opts an entire functioning motor cycle merely because it has homologous parts. TTSS and the flagellum have homologous parts, but that different than saying the flagellum co-opts a functioning TTSS! Let's say for the sake of argument the flagellum evolved from the TTSS. It doesn't mean the flagellum actually co-opts the TTSS! What is also a bit disingenous is that to the extent the flagellum resembles the TTSS, if the TTSS evolved into a flagellum, it would have to be a malfunctioning TTSS first before it became a functioning flagellum. Thus, removal of parts from a flagellum won't leave you with a functioning TTSS, only a malfunctioning one at best. And hence, claims that you can remove parts of the flagellum and have a functioning system are false. The falsehood is concealed by not being very overt in pointing out that the co-opted parts have to be assembled in a certain way to achive a different function, just like the coopted glasses and knives in video above have to be assembled in a certain way to achive function. What is not adequately conveyed, imho, is the fact the parts shared between the TTSS and flagellum are assmbled differently, the TTSS is not really co-opted is it? One might make the case the flagellum evolved from the TTSS, but that's not the same as saying the flagellum co-opted something previously functioning, only parts of something previously function. The distinction is very important. The reason it is important is that for the TTSS to evolve into working flagellum, it has to be malfunctioning TTSS first before it can be a working flagellum. And this problem will repeat itself again and again with IC systems that co-opt PARTS (not wholes) of other IC systems.scordova
March 26, 2012
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PaV: So, instead of 30, it was actually 15. To my mind’s eye, Minnich’s analysis is still fundamentally correct, though the degree of his correctness is diminished: i.e., instead of being “astronomically” correct, he is only “extremely” correct. (Even though, technically, he is still “astronomically” correct–but let’s not get sidetracked.) You literally feel that because there was an “error” in the “basic facts” (as though the “basic facts” are fixed in time given modern WGA) this entitles you to dismiss the entire argument. I'm a teleologist, not a Darwinian, but I'd like to say that, in the first place, I believe Dr. Matzke's point in that PT article is not to address if the argument of irreducible complexity has been answered. Rather, IMHO, his point was to provide evidence that the flagellum did in fact evolve from pre-cursor parts. In doing so, he also showed that several ID proponents were wrong about data on flagellar parts and the statistically significant sequence similarity (from which the inference of homology can be made) these parts share with non-flagellar parts. Many of the flagellar proteins are not, in fact, unique, to the flagellum. But the observation of homology of flagellar proteins and non-flagellar proteins is not in itself evidence that the flagellum arose through non-teleological evolution. One must also show that these non-flagellar proteins pre-date the flagellar system. For example, a good number of flagellar proteins only share homology with TTSS proteins. However, the TTSS is almost certainly not a pre-cursor system to the flagellum. Also, just for the record, some of the sequence similarity shared by flagellar proteins with non-flagellar proteins is kinda weak. E.g., the FliG/MgtE sequence similarity.Genomicus
March 26, 2012
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I don't believe that Behe's point has yet been stated clearly enough. Let's look at the bacterial flagellum. In the following, I will take it as accepted by all that this structure is IC in the sense that Behe has defined: if you remove any part, it completely ceases to function. Does this prove that it could not have evolved by Darwinian mechanisms? No, and Behe acknowledged this. However, it does present a prima facie case that it cannot have so evolved, because if you have all the components in place but one, the structure is not only useless to the organism, but detrimental, as its construction and maintenance diverts energy from other uses. Therefore if a biologist wishes to assert that it has evolved by Darwinian means, he or she must provide convincing evidence that there is in fact an indirect route by which it could have evolved. Pointing to the TTSS, which contains only 10 of the forty or so proteins necessary for the flagellum, and in which the functioning of those 10 would have to be altered for them to operate as part of the flagellum hardly constitutes an indirect route to the evolution of the flagellum. Such a route would have to show how each of the remaining necessary proteins as it appeared by random mutation (leaving aside the astronomical improbability of random mutation creating an entirely new protein) could have been incorporated into the TTSS or some other structure that would have increased the organism's fitness, and how those structures could have been modified to eventually become the flagellum, where each stage of the modification increased its fitness. If anyone has or knows of such a demonstration, I would very much like to see it. Absent such a demonstration, the assertion that the flagellum arose by Darwinian means simply amounts to an article of faith. In other words, demonstrating that a particular biological structure is IC places the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of anyone who wishes to claim that it arose through Darwinian mechanisms.Bruce David
March 25, 2012
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However Nick forgets that with any bacterial flagellum there needs to be muliple subunits of each protein, some numbering in the thousands.
Joe, Thank you. Do you have a citation we can link to? In the meantime, I'm hoping Nick will answer my question:
how does a Type 3 secretory system qualify as being “the same mechanism” as a flagelllum?
In the absence of Nick, any Darwinists willing to volunteer an answer? :-) scordova
March 25, 2012
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PaV- The fallacy Nick promotes is that if you can get the proteins you can get the required configuration. However Nick forgets that with any bacterial flagellum there needs to be muliple subunits of each protein, some numbering in the thousands. So not only do we need the right proteins, but we need the right amounts- oh and we need chaperones to guide some proteins to their destination otherwise they wouldn't make it due to cross-reactions- that is they would bind where they aren't needed. Add to that we need the proper configuration.Joe
March 25, 2012
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Rick Penner: Take this example (not from detail of biological study but just as a principle of thought to explain what I mean): birds have wings which couldn’t evolve from half-wings (according to Behe) because half-wings cannot give flight (the “same mechanism”) so the half-wings could not have evolved either. Behe could have selected from thousands of biological examples to buttress his claims about IC. You'll notice he didn't choose the "wing" of a bird. So, why argue from a case and an example that Behe has obviously overlooked?PaV
March 25, 2012
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Correction: .....who said that 30 of the TTSS flagellum proteins are not found anywhere else . ...... I hope this doesn't take away all of my credibility.PaV
March 25, 2012
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Nick: I and others have written detailed papers on the evolution of these systems. If you want a serious discussion, dig into those details and then we have something interesting to discuss. Maybe we can begin here. You criticize Scott Minnich, who said that 30 of the TTSS flagellum contain proteins found nowhere else in living organisms. The table you provided at PT shows that 15 of the proteins are not found anywhere else. You conclude, among other things, that: "Scott Minnich, the leading flagellum expert in the ID camp, was severely wrong about the most basic data relevant to the origins of the flagellum, the flagship system of the ID movement." So, instead of 30, it was actually 15. To my mind's eye, Minnich's analysis is still fundamentally correct, though the degree of his correctness is diminished: i.e., instead of being "astronomically" correct, he is only "extremely" correct. (Even though, technically, he is still "astronomically" correct--but let's not get sidetracked.) You literally feel that because there was an "error" in the "basic facts" (as though the "basic facts" are fixed in time given modern WGA) this entitles you to dismiss the entire argument. T his, to me, is a bit mind-boggling. President Obama once said that he had visited "all 57 states" already. Should I dismiss everything else he says because of this error? A few questions: (1) Is an Igloo designed, yes, or no? (2) Is an Igloo "irreducibly complex", yes, or no? Is a TeePee designed, yes, or no? Is a TeePee "irreducibly complex"? That the parts of an irreducibly complex system are present elsewhere, does not effect its status as being IC. This is the thrust of Hoyle's comment about a "tornado passing through a junkyard" analogy to Darwinism. A "functional" pathway to IC must be shown. But, of course, if you can show a pathway to IC, then it is not IC. Has a sensible, rational, credible "functional" pathway to the bacterial flagellum been demonstrated? I'm curious.PaV
March 25, 2012
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I continue to be impressed by how Darwinists can misrepresent IC. Darwinist version:
Something is IC if the same function can't be achieved with fewer parts, therefore if a system can be built with a reduced number of parts to achieve the same function, it is not irreducible
ID version:
Something is IC if the same function via the same mechanism can't be achieved with fewer parts, the system is not IC if the same function via the same mechanism can be achieved with fewer parts
See the subtle distinction? :-) If not, look at the 3-glasses-3-knives system to see what it means to achieve a function via a specific mechanism. The problem is the intermediate steps to the creation of the mechanism are dysfunctional. Biology is rich with lock-and-key/login-password type systems. A 15 character login-password system is irreducibly complex because the access mechanism will fail if the wrong password is provided. One wrong charcter and the system fails to function (if access is desired). To say that a 15 character login-password system is not IC because some people have password systems that uses a "reduced number of characters (say 4 instead of 15)" is just plain silly. But such are the arguments of Ken Miller.scordova
March 25, 2012
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UD commenters, Please be civil and welcoming to Nick. This dialogue is too important to break down. And as I pointed out, the guy deserves respect, he's certainly taken more persecution from the GNUts than I have. Nick, I asked
how does a Type 3 secretory system qualify as being “the same mechanism” as a flagelllum?
and Behe wrote:
An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism)
And to this point:
you can, but you just aren’t doing a serious scientific discussion.
Discussion at UD aren't that serious, these are informal exchanges, and that is why I'm all the more appreciative that someone of your caliber will dialogue with us. I'm not pretending we'll ever agree, but the readers would like to hear each side represented well. To that end, I really don't see how TTSS is "the same mechanism." By way of contrast, a finch beak is the "same mechanism" which can be improved by getting thicker. Finch beaks are an example of Darwinian selection taking a direct route. TTSS is hardly a direct route, imho. Do you agree or disagree?
but reducibility is important evidence for both
Building a 4-part mouse trap doesn't make the 5-part mouse trap irreducible. Irreducibility refers to the Depth of Integration for the system to work, Darwinists have equivocated "Irreducible" to mean that you can create a similar or adequate function with a "reduced number of parts". That is not the sense of how the word IRREDUCIBLE is being used by Behe, but Darwinists have chosen to render the most uncharitable and misleading interpretation of what Behe meant. I credit you guys for your ingenuity, or shall I say disingenuity. :-) Rube Goldberg machines are IRREDUCIBLY complex because of the depth of integration of parts. Same for human blood clotting systems. Saying the that something is not irreducibly complex because you can find a solution with a "reduced number of parts" is a misrepresentation of what ID proponents mean. If you think we should use different words, fine. Objection acknowledged. The problem IC posses is that of a rube-goldberg machine. The function is accomplished with more parts than you need, and the parts are organized such that removal of one part destroys the system and reduces it to nothing with respect to "the same mechanism" originally in question and "the same architecture". Of course one might conceivably build a comparable system with the remaining parts, but the issue is why would selection choose a rube-goldberg machine with such deep integration over simplicity? Why would it choose a complex architecture when a simpler architecture ought to be selected for. And that is the problem with existence of extravagance in nature, not the least of which is sexual reproduction (symbolized by the peacock's tail). I posted this thread to object to the misrepresentations that have been promoted as somehow answering Behe. But, if you have an answer for TTSS, I would be appreciative. Thanks.scordova
March 25, 2012
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NickMatzke:
Most of it has been thoroughly worked over many, many times, in the Kitzmiller case and elsewhere.
Perhaps in your mind, Nick. However, if we use the same standards that Jones used in Kitzmiller, there aren't any peer-reviewed papers that demonstrate blind and undirected processes (natural selecton and drift are blind and mutations are undirected) can construct new, useful multi-protein configurations.
You and others initially made claims about how removing parts wasn’t an answer to Behe. I pointed out that Behe himself set up that challenge — and heck, “irreducible complexity” invites people to see if systems are reducible.
Umm some IC configurations do contain parts that can be removed. However just because some parts can be removed that does not mean the entire configuration is reducible.
Mixed in is a bunch of random unserious discussion about the flagellum, blood-clotting, immune system etc. I and others have written detailed papers on the evolution of these systems.
Hogwash- unless you mean imagined = detailed.Joe
March 25, 2012
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Sal, what are we talking about, exactly? You've made claims that are all over the map. Most of it has been thoroughly worked over many, many times, in the Kitzmiller case and elsewhere. The rest of it is just uninformed. E.g. you can't bring up the peacock's tail without even mentioning sexual selection. Well, you can, but you just aren't doing a serious scientific discussion. You and others initially made claims about how removing parts wasn't an answer to Behe. I pointed out that Behe himself set up that challenge -- and heck, "irreducible complexity" invites people to see if systems are reducible. Now you are talking about direct vs. indirect routes, but reducibility is important evidence for both. Mixed in is a bunch of random unserious discussion about the flagellum, blood-clotting, immune system etc. I and others have written detailed papers on the evolution of these systems. If you want a serious discussion, dig into those details and then we have something interesting to discuss. Otherwise, what's the point in going around the merry-go-round again when nothing really matters except the detailed science? I appreciate the remarks about other controversies. What people don't realize is that it all comes from the same place. I get suspicious whenever it looks like emotion, wishful thinking, and rhetoric are getting ahead of detailed examination of the evidence. Creationists have this problem an awful lot, but other people have it sometimes also.NickMatzke_UD
March 25, 2012
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material a)how much parts you need for a minimal mouse trap? b)can this minimal mouse trap(or system that not yet a mouse trap)is functional in nature? c)in co option you still need a new binding sites nick, a cat is very impressive mouse trap. and no, its not an analogy...mk
March 25, 2012
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As NickMatzke_UD wrote, Behe said an irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly “by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism) by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional.” NickMatzke_UD then said that then it is “perfectly valid to impeach his argument by showing systems missing parts which are still functional.” Then you (scordova) responded by saying that Behe included the words “which continues to work by the same mechanism” and that NickMatzke’s response did not take this into consideration. But without a clearer and more detailed description of exactly what this line involving “same mechanism” means – and applying it to showing how the “same mechanism” must be in effect -- I don’t see why Nick is not right. Take this example (not from detail of biological study but just as a principle of thought to explain what I mean): birds have wings which couldn’t evolve from half-wings (according to Behe) because half-wings cannot give flight (the “same mechanism”) so the half-wings could not have evolved either. But these half-wings could have had the purpose of allowing the organism to glide – and earlier (quarter-wings or eighth-wings) to obtain balance when sitting in trees, and so forth. The functions are different (they don’t work by the “same mechanism”) and yet when they are modified they make other functions possible. This seems perfectly reasonable to me as a general principle of thought (though I’m not claiming I know the biological details of how this would be possible). So why does evolution HAVE to progress by the “same mechanism”? Second, you keep returning to the idea of the flamboyant or extravagant effect -- the peacock, or the Rube Goldberg contraption – and so are arguing that irreducible complexity is the realization that evolution could not create an extravagant design. Regardless of the merit of this argument, it seems to be a different argument than the one Behe is presenting in the passage I quoted. So how does the “simplicity” of beer coasters relate to Behe’s description of irreducible complexity as making “successive modifications of a precursor system” impossible?Rick Penner
March 24, 2012
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Nick Matzke
Hey, it’s not my fault that Behe wrote,
An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism) by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional.
…which makes it perfectly valid to impeach his argument by showing systems missing parts which are still functional.
But you still have to explain those systems. Yet you can't.
I don’t get into elaborate arguments about mousetraps and other analogies, these are at best dubious analogies for actual biology.
Actually too siple- biological configurations are much more complex and intricate. But anyway- I understand your anger when it comes to analogies as your position can't even muster and argument via analogy. And tat is why you and your ilk are so afraid of legislation like that being considered in Tennessee.Joe
March 24, 2012
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UD readers, Nick is something of martyr. He suffered at the hands of Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne and PZ Myers. He has my respect for standing up to all 3 of them. Here is Mike Gene's Tribute to Nick: Speech vs. Religion Comment 267289 Some excerpts:
The Matzke/Dawkins feud is actually quite interesting to think about. It all began when Matzke made a comment buried deep in a thread over at PT which said that Dawkins plays the Nazi card against religion. The problem is that he didn’t have any solid examples to back this up, so the Gnus smelled blood in the water and pounced. Coyne started the attack by calling Nick a “nasty piece of work” and this encouraged his fans to pile on. Throughout the comments section of the blog that advertises itself as being about evolution, Matke is routinely called a liar and worse. Next, Dawkins himself joins in, and provides his own ultimate scorn by treating Nick as someone he does not know.... ..... Then PZ piles on, referring to Nick as sleazy ... So as it stands, the Gnus are viciously attacking Matzke’s character all over the cybertubes and the one road that would turn it all around is unavailable to him. BTW Nick, if you are reading this, I feel for ya. You were the one, the only one, who helped Dawkins escape from the trap he sprung on himself when circulating that petition on his blog a few years back. Some gratitude, eh?
Nick, You're welcome to hang out with us here Nick. We may argue, but we won't treat you like those "friends" of yours who stabbed you in the back publicly. Thanks for visiting. I mean that.scordova
March 24, 2012
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By the way Nick, how does a Type 3 secretory system qualify as being "the same mechanism" as a flagelllum? :-)scordova
March 24, 2012
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Oh my goodness. NICK! How are you, bud? Sooo nice to see ya! Gentleman, at UD, I know we may have axes to grind with nick, but I urge civility, since I want the dialogue to take place.
it perfectly valid to impeach his argument by showing systems missing parts which are still functional.
Nick, you clever weasel you. I have to credit you for your ingenuity in misrepresenting what Behe said.
An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism)
Err, did you notice what I highlighted. For direct Darwinian evolution, it has to work "by the same mechanism", not a different one, as in co-option!!!!! Of course other parts of the system can be functional for other purposes and coopted for other purposes. That wasn't the point he was making. When Behe said "non-functional" it was with respect to the same mechanism. That is to say, it has to be a flagellum to start with (the initial function) and then continuously imporoved to function as the same mechanism (motility via a flagellum). That is an irreducibly complex system. By way of contrast, finch beaks and peppered moths had the initial mechanism in place and was continuously "improved". Even by your own advocacy of co-option of the flagellum, the route is NOT direct, and thus you ought not to be advertising co-option as some refutation of Behe's concept. Behe did give you an out, and even described the elements of co-option. To your credit you took the out.
An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly ... Even if a system is irreducibly complex (and thus cannot have been produced directly), however, one can not definitely rule out the possibility of an indirect circuitous route.
Indeed Nick, yours and miller's cooption route is non-direct. And thus is no counter-example to Behe's claim of "no direct route". So even your supposed refutation is no refutation at all, only a false claim. You had to appeal to indirect and circuitious means to find a solution, exactly as Michale Behe predicted, but you wouldn't ever give him proper credit for stating the elments of co-option would ya? Unfortunately for the ID side, Judge Jones signed off on Millers false claims under oath. To be fair, you might argue you didn't like his wording. But after all these years of clarifying the intended meaning, you are of course free to misrepresent the intended meaing to your advantage. But that would hardly be ethical, imho. I should mention Ken Miller's simpler mouse trap example and Doolittles simpler blood clotting are not really arguments you want to stand on either. Neither do they refute irreducible complexity, but it poses other problems because it would seem reasonable Natural Selection would select AGAINST increasing complexity when simpler architectures are available. But that problem seems lost on Ken Miller. Darwin obviously saw the problem when he about vomited to ponder the peacock's tail. Natural Selection would work against the sort of extravagance we see in nature. Why would selection go for complex and vulnerable and frail systems when simpler would work? He knew it, and so should you. Any way, thank you for visiting. I look forward to what you have to say.
But until you do, you have no hope of ever convincing the scientific community of your arguments
Convincing the scientific community of my arguments wasn't my goal. I merely wanted to know if the world shows evidence of design for personal reasons and for the sake of my colleagues in the ID community. I thought Mike Behe made a good case, and I wanted to dialogue with the best and brightest Darwinists like you to see how credible his ideas were. The fact that you and Ken Miller have to resort the misrepresentations (and Miller even under oath) and the most uncharitable reading of Behe's works, suggests to me your side han't refuted his claims. If the scientific community would prefer to listen to yours and Ken Miller's misrepresentations versus the real arguments that were put forward, it is their loss.scordova
March 24, 2012
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"We know this stuff, why should we listen to people who pretend it doesn’t exist, and rely on preposterous and misleading analogies instead of doing hard work?" Edison's sweat notwithstanding, "doing hard work", on the basis of grotesquely risible materialist conjectures is no substitute for elementary reasoning on the basis of plausible hypotheses.Axel
March 24, 2012
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Hey, it's not my fault that Behe wrote,
An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism) by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional.
...which makes it perfectly valid to impeach his argument by showing systems missing parts which are still functional. I don't get into elaborate arguments about mousetraps and other analogies, these are at best dubious analogies for actual biology. Trying to turn the analogy around (e.g. "evolving" a mousetrap) just compounds the problem. In real biology, there is homology between parts, unlike in the analogies. If airplane wings looked like modified car doors, and if knives looked like modified forks, and if developmental and DNA information confirmed this pattern, then you'd be getting closer to something like what is actually observed in biology. Also, in real biology, multiple and alternative functions are observed out there in nature, used for practical and direct survival-and-reproduction-related functions nature without humans thinking up creative and arbitrary functions. Of course, it's a lot easier to yammer about bartop tricks than to learn about the statistics of homology searches, phylogeny estimation, and the incredible diversity of actual biology. But until you do, you have no hope of ever convincing the scientific community of your arguments. We know this stuff, why should we listen to people who pretend it doesn't exist, and rely on preposterous and misleading analogies instead of doing hard work?NickMatzke_UD
March 24, 2012
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material.infantacy noted:
You forgot about co-option. Your “irreducibly complex” beer stand is composed of parts that are functional in other contexts, and even predate the stand itself. Hell, you could make a tie clip out of a couple of the knives.
Yeah, shame on me, and I should have pointed out Matzke uses the same misrepresentation, ahem, I mean argument:
homologies between flagellar and nonflagellar proteins suggest ancestral systems with functions other than motility. http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.html
scordova
March 24, 2012
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Ya know, I just realized that the 3-glasses-3-knives system is inferior in simplicity to a coaster, which can achieve the same obvious intent of protecting the table and insulating the beer with only 1 part: Take a look at this: Beer Coaster After all Ken Miller used such a line of reasoning to argue a 5-part mouse trap isn't irreducibly complex:
A series of drawings made by John MacDonald at the University of Delaware (left) show just how quickly the assertions behind Behe's mousetrap analogy collapse upon inspection. It it remarkably easy to construct a mousetrap with just 4 parts, 3 parts, or even a mousetrap with just one part. As MacDonald himself was careful to note, none of these contraptions are nearly as good as the standard 5-part mousetrap, but that's exactly the point. Working mousetraps don't have to have each of the 5 standard parts to be functional. If they have fewer parts, they can still be made to work. http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/DI/Mousetrap.html
scordova
March 24, 2012
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The chemistry governing beer fermentation is perfectly understood. No mystical "beer fairies" are required to explain it. The knives and beer trick is just a warm can of Budweiser in a cheap tuxedo.Matteo
March 24, 2012
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