My Thought About Justice is Not Justice: Easy for ID; a Deal Killer for Materialism

_{Barry Arrington
February 5, 2018

Intelligent Design

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Intelligent Design}

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At ENV Neurosurgeon Michael Egnor exposes how materialist metaphysics flounders on logical grounds in its theory of mind:

As an example, let us suppose that a certain pattern of neuronal activation in my cortex were shown to represent my thought about justice. Obviously that pattern is not my thought about justice itself — justice is a concept, not a bunch of neurons. And if that pattern of neuronal activation represented my thought about justice, it must map to my thought of justice, which presupposes my thought about justice and thus cannot explain it.

Succinctly, mental representation of abstract thought presupposes abstract thought, and cannot explain it. It is on abstract thought that materialism, as a theory of mind, flounders. Abstract thought, classically understood as intellect and will, are inherently immaterial. Any representation in the brain of abstract thought (while it may exist) necessarily presupposes abstract thought itself, which must, by its nature, be an immaterial power of the mind.

Comments

kurx78 Thanks for that. You have provided me with new prospective. Are you familiar with quantum consciousness?J-Mac_{February 5, 2018
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@39 To give Egnor credit, he has been thinking about it but he seems to attribute everything to immortal soul... https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2017/06/a-map-of-the-soul The removal of the large parts of the brain is fascinating to me...J-Mac_{February 5, 2018
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@outside_obesrver
Does the brain produce consciousness? No, but it is nonetheless required for consciousness to properly operate.
So God isn't conscious because a brain is required to be conscious? I don't think that's what you mean. Perhaps, when you say "to properly operate" you mean "operate as designed" as opposed to what was necessary for consciousness. It seems these are two very different ideas that are conflated here on a regular basis.critical rationalist_{February 5, 2018
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J-Mac, "You don’t know what immortality means or don’t want to know… which means you are wasting my and others time…" Exactly my point, if you understand what inmortality really implies, you may not want to be inmortal after all. Life is beatiful because is limited and short, living forever destroys the magic of being alive. But I'm not a materialist, not at all... That's why I really like the nondual perspective, it really challenges your worldview if you are christian but in the end, it provides with a more coherent form of spirituality. Maybe mind or spirit are not an ilussion, the ilusion itself is "me".. the notion of separation from the natural world, the notion of time and space. “Spirituality is not creating boundaries but creating space for others to come into your life.” Amit Ray, Enlightenment Step by Stepkurx78_{February 5, 2018
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One thing I am curious about is how Egnor lives with the cognitive dissonance inherent in his immaterialist views. On the one hand he scorns the materialist position but, on the other, as a neurosurgeon he has spent his professional life working with a purely material or physical concept of the brain and the world. I assume that, when performing surgery on a brain, he does not do a Luke Skywalker and lower the blast-shield on his helmet, reach out with his feelings and trust the Force to guide his hands. At least, I certainly hope he doesn't. I assume that in practice he uses his detailed knowledge of the anatomy and functions of the physical brain assisted by the latest technology. Could it be that he has found that, for all his beliefs in the non-material, when it comes to treating disorders of the physical brain he has found that surgery tends to work better than prayer?Seversky_{February 5, 2018
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ET, You don't know what immortality means or don't want to know... which means you are wasting my and others time...J-Mac_{February 5, 2018
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If we were created to live forever, why would we need an immortal soul? If we were created with an immortal soul, what's the point of the prohibition of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil with the death sentence for disobedience? It seems like a bluff to me...J-Mac_{February 5, 2018
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My Thought About Justice is Not Justice: Easy for ID.
Can someone please explain why should I care about ID's designer's conception of Justice? Since ID says nothing about the designer, how do we know the designers idea of Justice is just? For example, given that human beings are often presented as concrete examples of designers, do you care about all human ideas of justice? Is it just by nature of being a designer? If not, then it's unclear how this is "easy" for ID, given that it supposedly doesn't say anything about the designer, including its moral character, etc. Furthermore, ID's designer is supposedly only a proximate cause, not an ultimate cause. This is yet another example of claiming that ID is somehow a superior response as opposed to something like eugenics, despite the fact ID, the supposed scientific theory, would be perfectly compatible with eugenics because its designer is abstract. It only seems to make sense if you assume that everyone thinks ID's designer is actually God, and makes assumptions as such, while denying it, at the same time.critical rationalist_{February 5, 2018
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Molson Bleu- The immortal soul goes hand-in-hand with God and Heaven.ET_{February 5, 2018
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Seversky:
So your argument is that the immaterial soul can’t interface directly with the physical body, it has to use the brain as an intermediary?
Umm, the brain is part of the physical body and just happens to be the body's control center. So the brain is hardly an intermediary.ET_{February 5, 2018
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J Mac- they wouldn't be immortal after eating from that tree.ET_{February 5, 2018
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niwrad @ 3
“Why would the soul need a brain, if it creates thoughts, consciousness and operates on its own without it?” Because the soul has to control a body. To control it a material brain is necessary. Similarly, you can conceive things in abstract, but if you want to construct or control them in matter you have to descend on the material level and use material means.
So your argument is that the immaterial soul can't interface directly with the physical body, it has to use the brain as an intermediary? But if the soul needs a material intermediary to act on the material body, why doesn't it need another material intermediary to act between it and the material brain. And then another material intermediary to act between it and that intermediary and so on ad infinitum.Seversky_{February 5, 2018
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ET @29, It's a contradiction... How could something immortal die?J-Mac_{February 5, 2018
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Molson Bleu, Great analysis! I don't think I have ever thought about it this way...I've learned something new. ThanksJ-Mac_{February 5, 2018
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J Mac- Until they ate from that tree they were immortal- body and soul.ET_{February 5, 2018
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kurx78 I like the idea though pretty new to me...J-Mac_{February 5, 2018
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Rvb8, In doubt I have ever agreed with you before... If I did, I don't remember... and I don't drink... Hopefully, this proves that spiritual people should follow the facts and logic and not preconceived ideas that clearly make no sense...J-Mac_{February 5, 2018
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Not a single response from the materialists even attempts to take on Egnor's argument. Everyone of them wants to talk about something else. Typical. And telling.Barry Arrington_{February 5, 2018
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In the following article, George Ellis points out that proof for the reality of the immaterial mind is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text
Recognising Top-Down Causation – George Ellis Excerpt page 7: The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone’s plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities. http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Ellis_FQXI_Essay_Ellis_2012.pdf
Thus contrary to what the dogmatic atheists on UD would prefer to delude themselves into thinking, the fact of the matter is that we have very powerful evidence for the reality of the immaterial mind. A few more notes in regards to empirical evidence for the 'soul': Whereas Darwinists have no clue how the basic ‘form’ of any particular biological organism might be achieved during embryological development, or how that basic ‘form’ might be maintained for precisely a lifetime, and not a moment longer,,,
Darwinism vs Biological Form – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyNzNPgjM4w The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Stephen L. Talbott – 2010 Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. per – The New Atlantis
Christians, and the other hand, can appeal directly to breakthroughs in quantum biology to support their belief in a ‘soul’ that gives the material body its basic form and also to support their belief in a soul which is capable of living past the death of our material bodies:
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – video https://youtu.be/LHdD2Am1g5Y “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.” – Stuart Hameroff – Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – video (5:00 minute mark) https://youtu.be/jjpEc98o_Oo?t=300
As well, whereas, atheists have no compelling evidence for the various parallel universe and/or multiverse scenarios that they have put forth,,
Multiverse Mania vs Reality – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQJV4fH6kMo
,, Christians, on the other hand, can appeal directly to the higher dimensional mathematics behind Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity and General Relativity to support their belief that God upholds this universe in its continual existence, as well as to support their belief in a heavenly dimension and in a hellish dimension.
Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKggH8jO0pk
Someone in the preceding comments on this thread questioned just how important the 'soul' really was. ,,, Jesus held that your soul is worth more than the entire world.
Matthew 16:25-26 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? Jewel – Who will save your soul – Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LukEq643Mk
Myself, I take Jesus's opinion for the soul's worth far more seriously than some blogger's opinion.bornagain77_{February 5, 2018
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The focus of Dr. Egnor's article is that 'immaterial' abstract concepts can not be mapped to any material things but can only be mapped to the abstract thought itself. He gives these examples of abstract concepts that lack any material basis:
"Thoughts about universals are abstract thoughts, and are thoughts about concepts. Justice, mercy, logic, mathematics, etc., are abstract thoughts." - Dr. Egnor
Mathematics by itself is particularly interesting to look at. Alfred Russell Wallace himself, co-discoverer of the now discredited idea of Natural Selection, held that Man's mathematical ability was alone sufficient to conclude that man possessed a soul:
“Nothing in evolution can account for the soul of man. The difference between man and the other animals is unbridgeable. Mathematics is alone sufficient to prove in man the possession of a faculty unexistent in other creatures. Then you have music and the artistic faculty. No, the soul was a separate creation.,,," — Alfred Russell Wallace, New Thoughts on Evolution, - 1910 http://people.wku.edu/charles.smith/wallace/S746.htm
And when examining the nature of 'abstract' math we find that Wallace was not exaggerating too much in his claim that man's mathematical ability provided evidence for the immaterial soul of man.
Darwinian evolution is based on a materialistic view of reality which denies that anything beyond nature exists. On the other hand, Mathematics, which provides the backbone for all of science, engineering and technology, exists in a transcendent, beyond space and time, realm which is not reducible any possible material explanation. This transcendent mathematical realm has been referred to as a Platonic mathematical world. Simply put, Mathematics itself, contrary to the materialistic presuppositions of Darwinists, does not need the physical world in order to exist. And yet Darwinists, although they deny that anything beyond nature exists, need this transcendent world of mathematics in order for their theory to be considered scientific in the first place. The predicament that Darwinists find themselves in regards to denying the reality of this transcendent world of mathematics, and yet needing validation from this transcendent world of mathematics in order to be considered scientific, should be the very definition of self-refuting. - Darwinian Evolution vs Mathematics - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3gyx70BHvA
Besides abstract ideas, actual Empirical evidence for the power of the immaterial mind to interact with the material brain is provided by the following: In direct contradiction to the atheistic claim that our thoughts are merely the result of whatever state our material brain happens to be in, 'Brain Plasticity', the ability to alter the structure of the brain from a person's focused intention, has now been established by Jeffrey Schwartz, as well as among other researchers.
The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz's work) - Oct. 2014 - video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 The Case for the Soul: Quantum Biology - (7:25 minute mark - Brain Plasticity and Mindfulness control of DNA expression) https://youtu.be/6_xEraQWvgM?t=446
Moreover, as alluded to in the preceding video, and completely contrary to materialistic thought, mind has been now also been shown to be able to reach all the way down and have pronounced, ‘epigenetic’, effects on the gene expression of our bodies:
Scientists Finally Show How Your Thoughts Can Cause Specific Molecular Changes To Your Genes, - December 10, 2013 Excerpt: “To the best of our knowledge, this is the first paper that shows rapid alterations in gene expression within subjects associated with mindfulness meditation practice,” says study author Richard J. Davidson, founder of the Center for Investigating Healthy Minds and the William James and Vilas Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “Most interestingly, the changes were observed in genes that are the current targets of anti-inflammatory and analgesic drugs,” says Perla Kaliman, first author of the article and a researcher at the Institute of Biomedical Research of Barcelona, Spain (IIBB-CSIC-IDIBAPS), where the molecular analyses were conducted.,,, the researchers say, there was no difference in the tested genes between the two groups of people at the start of the study. The observed effects were seen only in the meditators following mindfulness practice. In addition, several other DNA-modifying genes showed no differences between groups, suggesting that the mindfulness practice specifically affected certain regulatory pathways. http://www.tunedbody.com/scientists-finally-show-thoughts-can-cause-specific-molecular-changes-genes/
Then there is also the well documented placebo effect in which a person’s beliefs have pronounced physiological effects on their body
How Your Thoughts Change Your Brain, Cells and Genes - Mar 24, 2017 Excerpt: Studies have shown that thoughts alone can improve vision, fitness, and strength. The placebo effect, as observed with fake operations and sham drugs, for example, works because of the power of thought. Expectancies and learned associations have been shown to change brain chemistry and circuitry which results in real physiological and cognitive outcomes, such as less fatigue, lower immune system reaction, elevated hormone levels, and reduced anxiety. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/debbie-hampton/how-your-thoughts-change-your-brain-cells-and-genes_b_9516176.html
Then there is also empirical evidence for 'free will'.
Do we have free will? Researchers test mechanisms involved in decision-making - January 4, 2016 Excerpt: Back (in the 1980s), the American researcher Benjamin Libet studied the nature of cerebral processes of study participants during conscious decision-making. He demonstrated that conscious decisions were initiated by unconscious brain processes, and that a wave of brain activity referred to as a 'readiness potential' could be recorded even before the subject had made a conscious decision. ,,, Until now, the existence of such preparatory brain processes has been regarded as evidence of 'determinism', according to which free will is nothing but an illusion, meaning our decisions are initiated by unconscious brain processes, and not by our 'conscious self'. ,,, Using state-of-the-art measurement techniques, the researchers tested whether people are able to stop planned movements once the readiness potential for a movement has been triggered. "The aim of our research was to find out whether the presence of early brain waves means that further decision-making is automatic and not under conscious control, or whether the person can still cancel the decision, i.e. use a 'veto'," explains Prof. Haynes. ,,, "A person's decisions are not at the mercy of unconscious and early brain waves. They are able to actively intervene in the decision-making process and interrupt a movement," says Prof. Haynes. "Previously people have used the preparatory brain signals to argue against free will. Our study now shows that the freedom is much less limited than previously thought. http://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2016-01-free-mechanisms-involved-decision-making.html
In fact, free will, besides being detectable in the brain, is also found to be 'built into' the equations of quantum mechanics. As Steven Weinberg put it, in quantum mechanics, instead of humans being the result of the laws of nature as Darwinists hold, humans, via free will, are instead brought into the laws of nature at there most fundamental level:
The Trouble with Quantum Mechanics – Steven Weinberg – January 19, 2017 Excerpt: The instrumentalist approach,, (the) wave function,, is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made.,, In the instrumentalist approach,,, humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal,,, Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,, http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/01/19/trouble-with-quantum-mechanics/ Determinism vs Free Will - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwPER4m2axI
bornagain77_{February 5, 2018
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In Gen 2:16 and 17 we read; “16 God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.*” *You actually will not die, because you both have an immortal soul…So, if you disobey me and eat the forbidden apple, I will have no choice but to send your souls to hell where you will be tormented forever and ever… Sorry…You should have read the fine line…J-Mac_{February 5, 2018
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Bob O'H @ 16: "But the body isn’t immortal, so an immortal soul would only be able to express itself in this natural world for a brief period of its existence, which makes me wonder what the point is." But the body is indeed mortal, so a mortal soul would only be able to express itself in this natural world for exactly the same period of time and then cease to exist forever, which makes me wonder what the point to that would be. Just because someone may not personally see the point in something, or anything for that matter, does not necessarily mean that there really is no point to it. Which is not to say that one is wrong to wonder, but at this point we have gone beyond science and are now asking fundamental religious/philosophical questions like "Why are we here?" "What is our purpose?", etc.outside_observer_{February 5, 2018
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J Mac:
However, my problem with this is that if thoughts are generated by the immortal soul, why did we need a brain in the first place?
So those thoughts can be acted on.
Why does the mind function fine until certain parts of the brain are damaged or disabled by anesthetic?
The mind may still function fine but the output is scrambled by the defect.
If the soul is the mind, thought, consciousness creator, why does it fail when there is a small and yet essential brain injury?
The same reason the software fails when there is a hardware failure.
Why would the soul need a brain, if it creates thoughts, consciousness and operates on its own without it?
Might be another straw man. Does it operate on its own without a brain or is it part and parcel of a collective?ET_{February 5, 2018
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Bob O'H:
But the body isn’t immortal, so an immortal soul would only be able to express itself in this natural world for a brief period of its existence, which makes me wonder what the point is.
Unless of course one accepts reincarnation.ET_{February 5, 2018
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Three things to ponder, imo, but which nobody seems to have addressed. 1. There is a man functioning almost normally, who holds down a clerical job, yet possesses considerably less than half of his brain. Nor is he the only one functioning adequately, yet with a large part of their brain missing. 2. Rather than give a layman's garbled account, myself, I refer you to the second article in the blog, The Bridge : a Science and Spirituality Resource, linked below, describing the dualism of the mind and brain that seems to be indicated by the subsequent NDE of a woman, who had undergone the most astonishing deprivation of any possible sensory sensitivity during a major surgical intervention on her brain. - I believe, it was to remove a large aneurysm in a most inaccessible position. "From these studies we know that in our prospective study of patients that have been clinically dead (VF on the ECG) no electric activity of the cortex of the brain (flat EEG) must have been possible, but also the abolition of brain stem activity like the loss of the cornea reflex, fixed dilated pupils and the loss of the gag reflex is a clinical finding in those patients. However, patients with an NDE can report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, and memory from early childhood was possible, as well as perception from a position out and above their “dead” body. Because of the sometimes reported and verifiable out-of -body experiences, like the case of the dentures reported in our study, we know that the NDE must happen during the period of unconsciousness, and not in the first or last second of this period. So we have to conclude that NDE in our study was experienced during a transient functional loss of all functions of the cortex and of the brainstem. It is important to mention that there is a well documented report of a patient with constant registration of the EEG during cerebral surgery for an gigantic cerebral aneurysm at the base of the brain, operated with a body temperature between 10 and 15 degrees, she was put on the heart-lung machine, with VF, with all blood drained from her head, with a flat line EEG, with clicking devices in both ears, with eyes taped shut, and this patient experienced an NDE with an out-of-body experience, and all details she perceived and heard could later be verified. (8)" To cut a long story, short, taking such evidence into account, it has been postulated that the brain, far from producing thoughts (something never proved), acts as a kind of radio/TV receiver. http://science-spirituality.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/medical-evidence-for-ndes-reply-to.html http://www.timcolemanmedia.com/index.php/articles/life-after-death/71-pam-reynolds 3. In one of his essays, perhaps, The Doors of Perception, Aldous Huxley referred to a theory postulating that the brain served as a reducing-valve, to enable us to survive in time, in the physical world. Without it, we should be in a state of 'lotus-eater' state, perpetually gazing at the Beatific Vision. There is evidence tending to confirm that, too, both scriptural and experiential. Hope you find the sources as interesting as I did. There are YouTube video-clips of the Pam Reynolds case, but I believe the best one, probably the earliest one, has been copyrightedAxel_{February 5, 2018
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I’ve never been a big believer in the immortal soul. There is no reason why a soul/mind can’t develop and die with the brain and still be more that the sum of the parts of the brain. And before anyone jumps all over me, I am not talking about the airy-fairy ‘emergent property’ concept. There is little doubt that we are conscious, self aware and have free will. Why wouldn’t the designer be satisfied with that? Why would he feel it necessary to make that soul/mind immortal? The immortal soul seems more like the mythologized desires of humans rather than the goals of a designer.Molson Bleu_{February 5, 2018
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J-Mac's argument is spot on... But then maybe we can consider the nondual perspective https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/about/nonduality/kurx78_{February 5, 2018
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outside_observer @ 8 -
If we presuppose an immortal soul and/or spirit, then it is self-evident that a reasonably functioning body (which would include the brain) is still be a vital necessity for individuals to express themselves in this natural world.
But the body isn't immortal, so an immortal soul would only be able to express itself in this natural world for a brief period of its existence, which makes me wonder what the point is.Bob O'H_{February 5, 2018
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JMac: if thoughts are generated by the immortal soul, why did we need a brain in the first place? Why does the mind function fine until certain parts of the brain are damaged or disabled by anesthetic? If the soul is the mind, thought, consciousness creator, why does it fail when there is a small and yet essential brain injury? Why would the soul need a brain, if it creates thoughts, consciousness and operates on its own without it? Nobody is saying (AFAICT) that the brain is not involved in the thinking process. I think it is patently obvious that it is. When I consume alcohol to excess, my intellectual abilities are manifestly downgraded. Even moreso when I'm asleep. But consciousness is not thinking. Thinking is a process determined by a cooperative interaction between consciousness and the brain. The brain is a bi-directional interface that is a tool that consciousness "uses" to interact, both intellectually, and as a sensory interface, to spacetime.mike1962_{February 5, 2018
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So software isn't separate from the hardware? Really?ET_{February 5, 2018
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