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Natural Selection vs Artificial Selection

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gent-selecting-a-suit-1514073Stimulated by the nth discussion with Zachriel on this point, I would like to offer here some thoughts about the difference between Natural Selection and Artificial Selection.

First of all, the dramatic limitation of NS is the following: it works on one functional specification, and one functional specification only: reproductive advantage.

In a sense, that specification is the byproduct of the system: biological beings that reproduce, that use limited resources to do that, and that compete for those resources. So, NS is a selection made possible by the existence of a complex functional system, and it selects for improvement in a function critically predefined in that system: reproductive success. So, it is a byproduct of the functional complexity already existing in the system.

Now, the functional specification: “reproductive success” is rather generic. It can certainly include many sub-functions. That’s the point that neo-darwinists stress. They say: OK, NS can select only for reproductive success, but reproductive success can include any function, and everything which goes in that sense can be selected.

Well, this is a false reasoning, which takes into no account the nature of complex information. The simple fact is: the search engine to which NS can be applied is random variation, and only random variation (I exclude for the moment possible algorithmic adaptation mechanisms). So, NS works on variation that is random, and not purposeful. Can that mechanism build complex functional information?

The simple answer is: no. Simple functional variation can certainly be generated by random variation, and therefore selected by NS. Why? because a few bits of variation are in a search space small enough to be explored, even many times, by biological RV. Those rare instances where the variation can give an advantage, with a bit of luck, can certainly be selected. That is the case of simple forms of antibiotic resistance. We can call those cases “molecular microevolution”. The few examples we have of that are the only empirical examples of NS at work in biology.

But what about some function which can give reproductive advantage, but which appears only if at least, say, 500 bits of specific information are found?

Such a result is definitely beyond any resource of RV. Therefore, it will never be achieved, and therefore never be selected.

Neo-darwinists, like Zachriel, argue that gradual pathways exist that will build those 500 bits of specific information in small steps. That is simply a fairy tale, existing only in their imagination. Information does not work that way. If I need 100 specific aminoacids to make something work (a case very common), then there is obviously no pathway which goes to that sequence step by step. Why? Because those 100 AAs are specific to the function. Fragments of the sequence have no special meaning and function, unless the complete sequence is achieved.

 

What about AS? Let’s take the case of the ATP binding protein, quoted by Zachriel (IOWs the Szostak paper).

This is AS, as many times argued by me here. The designer starts by conceiving and defining a function: “I want a protein which can effectively bind ATP”. That is the functional specification, and it is a form conceived in the consciousness of the designer.

As anyone can see, the function is very different from the single function available to NS: reproductive success.

Then, the designer uses his cognitive understanding of protein biochemistry and lab techniques to devise a strategy to implement his goal.

First of all, he sets a system that measures and extracts those molecules which bind ATP.

This point is very important, and it shows one of the main reasons why AS is so effective, while NS is not.

AS can measure the function defined by the designer at any desired level of sensitivity. Instead, NS has a definite threshold, under which no selection happens: reproductive success must be present, and enough of it to ensure the fixation of the trait.

That means that our designer, if interested in ATP binding, can select molecules which bind ATP with any level of affinity. There may be practical limitations due to the technology used, bu in principle any level of binding can be detected.

The reason is simple:

1) In NS, the coupling between the new function and the selection is direct: it is due to the reproductive success conferred by the function itself.

2) In AS, the coupling between the new function and the selection is indirect and symbolic: it’s the designer of the procedure who connects two events completely unrelated, for example ATP binding and the selection and expansion process. (UB, are you there?  🙂 )

In our example of ATP binding, then the designer chooses to use some form of artificial RV (in that case, mutagenic PCR), and to apply it in rounds coupled to artificial selection again and again.

The results are powerful: he obtains, in a short time, a protein with strong affinity for ATP.

The important point is: while that protein satisfies well enough the functional definition for which it was artificially selected (ATP binding), in no way it confers a reproductive advantage. So, even at the end of the artificial selection procedure, still the protein is not in the range of NS.

So, to sum up, the main differences between NS and AS are:

1) AS can define any function, and select for it. NS works only on one function: reproductive success.

2) In NS, the coupling between function and selection is direct: it’s the function itself which confers the reproductive advantage, which is the reason for the selection itself. In AS, the coupling between the defined function and the selection process is indirect and symbolic: the connection is established by the designer, by definite procedures designed by him.

3) NS has a definite threshold of measurement: it can only act if enough reproductive success is present as to ensure the fixation of the trait. AS can measure and select any desired level of the defined function.

4) In NS, the only selecting procedure is tied to the reproductive success, and is in essence differential reproduction. In AS, any intelligent procedure can be used to isolate, expand and fix the desired function.

 

Comments
Zachriel: IOWs, you have no empirical evidence that recombination can help in a scenario like the one we were discussing.
There may be many sequences that accomplish the same goal, or even if there is a single global peak, there may be many pathways to that global peak.
You seem to forget that: a) The wildtype sequence was much more efficient then the sequences they evolved (its infectivity is still about 2000 times greater than the infectivity of the best evolved sequence). b) A sequence like the one found in the experiment, which has nothing in common with the sequence in the wildtype, can scarcely be considered "a pathway" to the wildtype, which remains by far the optimal peak, and the one we find in the natural phage.
There’s no way to determine the search space by “calculating it”. At this point, it can only be explored.
There are certainly ways to calculate the search space, obviously starting from empirical data which explore it. That's the way to see if a theory can be shown false. It's a way to do good science, and to abandon the realm of verbal games, of just so stories, and of fairy tales. Finally, it can be of some interest to know that even in the rugged landscape experiment, which certainly, as I have always said, has the merit of exploring correctly a NS scenario, there is a design component which certainly reduces the search space and makes the "random" sequences less random. Here is how the random sequences were prepared (from "Solubility of artificial proteins with random sequences", http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014579396001238 ): "In this work, we have prepared a library of 141 amino acid residue proteins with random sequences. The random sequences include the 20 kinds of amino acids. The state of the random proteins in the cells of Escherichia coli as to their solubility was examined. Out of 25 proteins examined, 5 were soluble. Hence, about 20% of the random proteins with 141 residues are expected to be soluble." And: "The schematic diagram for library construction is illustrated in Fig. IA. The mixture of 140-met single-stranded oligonucleotides (Rl40ss) was synthesized by Toagosei Co., Ltd. (Tokyo) according to our design. RI40ss contains a randomized portion composed of 6 repeated 16-mer random oligonucleotides flanked by fixed sequences which contain the primer sites for amplification and the restriction enzyme sites." And: "The genes encoding the artificial random proteins were designed with the following criteria: (1) all the 20 kinds of amino acids are included; (2) the length of the randomized portion is about 100 amino acid residues; (3) the amino acid sequence is highly random; and (4) the mean value of the net charge of the random proteins is about +2. The above criteria were met by the synthesized randomized portion of RI40ss and the strategy of constructing the gene (Fig. l). It should be pointed out that no stop codons appear in all the six frames of the randomized portion even if frame shifts occur during the synthesis and construction, and that the mean value of the G + C content of Rl40ss is set to be 53.5%, as high G + C content interferes with PCR reactions." Emphasis mine. And, from the first Hayashi paper (Can an arbitrary sequence evolve towards acquiring a biological function?): "we replaced the D2 domain of the fd-tet phage genome with the soluble random polypeptide RP3-42." Emphasis mine.gpuccio
December 7, 2015
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gpuccio: I was asking if you had any empirical evidence that it can help in a scenario like the one we were discussing. 1. Population genetics shows the importance of recombination. 2. Evolutionary algorithms show the importance of recombination. 3. Empirical evidence shows that importance of recombination in organisms as varied as viruses and humans. 4. A simple example was provided to show how recombination can overcome local peaks. gpuccio: Remember, the sequence found in the experiment had nothing in common with the sequence in the wildtype. So? Why is that so unexpected? There may be many sequences that accomplish the same goal, or even if there is a single global peak, there may be many pathways to that global peak. gpuccio: when you discuss recombination, you should be able to compute all possible recombinations There's no way to determine the search space by "calculating it". At this point, it can only be explored. However, we do know that recombination avoids the problem of becoming locked on a local peak.Zachriel
December 6, 2015
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Zachriel: I am not denying that recombination exists. I was asking if you had any empirical evidence that it can help in a scenario like the one we were discussing. I don't think you have given any. Remember, the sequence found in the experiment had nothing in common with the sequence in the wildtype. Your simple schemes with a few letters will not help explain long and complex functional sequences. Moreover, when you discuss recombination, you should be able to compute all possible recombinations, because again here it is a problem of target space against search space. Recombination is not magic, any more than random walks are. Random walks have clearly shown, experimentally, their huge limitations, even in optimization issues. Recombination, when tested experimentally, will show similar huge limitations. However, you will obviously keep your faith. If and when you have some real support for it, please let me know.gpuccio
December 6, 2015
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gpuccio: IOWs, they have nothing empirical in favor of the possible role of recombination in this context, a role which “has been suggested”. Population genetics demonstrates the importance of recombination, which is prevalent in everything from viruses to humans. Genetic algorithms can easily provide the structural support for recombination. Without recombination, each linage will find the first local peak and then stop. With recombination, it will explore much more of the landscape. It's easy to show.
This abstracted example of homologous recombination only shows the relevant areas of the gene. We start with xxxx Through simple mutation, end up with two strains on two local peaks. ABxx xxCD There's a global peak, ABCD But ABxD, ABCx, AxCD, xBCD are all deleterious. (That's what we mean by a local peak, there's nowhere to step but down.) Therefore, there's no simple mutational pathway from our two strains, ABxx or xxCD, to the global peak, ABCD. Recombination of the two strains will result in many variants that are not available to point-mutation alone. One of these recombinations is the global peak that was otherwise unattainable, ABCD.
gpuccio: There are no more similar sequences in the phage genome, only completely different sequences of different genes, with no homology to what has been lost. There is homologous recombination with other variants of the same evolving gene, and nonhomologous recombination. Recombination is found in everything from viruses to humans.Zachriel
December 6, 2015
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Zachriel: These are not even skirmishes anymore. I suppose that, when the two parties have said all that they had to say about something, the discussion inevitably goes down. You repeat your conflations, and I really have nothing more to say about that. I will only comment briefly on your last obsession, recombination: the new magic intended to save a dying theory. When I asked: "Recombination of what, please?" I was not looking for the generic and trivial answer you gave (genes). I was asking for a specific answer about the context we were discussing: the phage experiments. Let's refer to this paper by Hayashi et al. "Experimental Rugged Fitness Landscape in Protein Sequence Space" http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0000096 It is essentially a more detailed follow-up to the paper you quoted. So, let's see. They replaced one of the three main domains in protein g3p of phage fd, the D2 domain, which contributes to infectivity. The D2 domain is about 180 AAs long, and they replaced it (or probably part of it) with a soluble random polypeptide, “RP3-42,” consisting of 139 amino acids. This is also the paper which states, in the discussion: "The question remains regarding how large a population is required to reach the fitness of the wild-type phage. The relative fitness of the wild-type phage, or rather the native D2 domain, is almost equivalent to the global peak of the fitness landscape. By extrapolation, we estimated that adaptive walking requires a library size of 10^70 with 35 substitutions to reach comparable fitness." Then the authors add, always in the discussion: "Recombination among neutral or surviving entities may suppress negative mutations and thus escape from mutation-selection-drift balance. Although the importance of recombination or DNA shuffling has been suggested [30], we did not include such mechanisms for the sake of simplicity." IOWs, they have nothing empirical in favor of the possible role of recombination in this context, a role which "has been suggested". Just so stories? Fairy tales? Let's try to understand. What we are trying to find here is a sequence of about 140 AAs (the replaced domain) which contributes to infectivity. After RV and NS, some optimization takes place, but we are still faraway from the wild type. Indeed, we have not found the wild type "island" at all, as the authors admit: "No convergence to the wild-type D2 domain was detected. The amino acid sequences of the clones picked randomly from the enriched population showed no significant homology to the wild-type sequence (Figure 2B). Based on detailed analysis of the fitness landscape described below, it is likely that the adaptive walk climbed to a different mountain in the fitness landscape from that where the wild-type sequence exists" And here comes the admission that a starting library of 10^70 would be needed to find the wild type sequence, and the generic statement that maybe recombination or exone shuffling could help. But recombination of what? I still ask. The original D2 domain, the wildtype sequence, is lost in the phage after the substitution. There are no more similar sequences in the phage genome, only completely different sequences of different genes, with no homology to what has been lost. What should be recombined, in order to help find the original sequence? Have you empirical experiments that show that recombination or exon shuffling can help in such a context? Which hexons, in the phage or elsewhere, would help, if shuffled, in finding the "mountain in the fitness landscape where the wild-type sequence exists"? I would appreciate answers, and not just verbal games. Thank you.gpuccio
December 6, 2015
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gpuccio: Experiments with optimizing selection are relevant to optimizing selection, ... Something which occurs in nature. gpuccio: not certainly to selection of a completely new sequence and function. That's exactly what happens with a new functional structure, as shown with Lenski's Long-Term Evolution Experiment. gpuccio: The difference is obviously that NS can only, at best, optimize a specific, already existing function, and only if the optimization is achieved by small variations, and only if it is such that it gives significant reproductive advantage. As shown in Hayashi et al. It turns out that functional proteins are common enough that they can be found even in random sequences. With non-random sequences, such as recombinations of existing functional sequences, then they will be even more common. gpuccio: The few bits of variation add some folding to a sequence already selected form a vast random library for a weak ATP binding site, so that the already existing affinity of the binding site is significantly improved. The library is not so vast. Functional sequences are found once in about 10^11 sequences. There are hundreds of times that many bacteria in the average human gut. With non-random sequences, such as recombinations of existing functional sequences, then they will be even more common. gpuccio: Recombination of what, please? Genes. In genetic algorithms, it's sometimes called crossover. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_recombination See also exon shuffling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exon_shuffling Zachriel: Functional complexity exists in morphological space as well. gpuccio: ??? Not sure your question. There is a range of possible morphologies, the morphological space. There are functional and complex structures within that space. gpuccio: It does, indeed. Eliminating stop codons in random sequences only reduces the space by less than two orders of magnitude. Of course, nature doesn't start with random sequences, but with recombinations of existing sequences, so that improves the search by far more than two orders of magnitude. gpuccio: Are you denying that the designers of the experiment used some cognitive understanding of DNA and protein biology to build their initial library? Did you know that Galileo built inclines to "guide" falling objects as part of an experiment on gravity? Of course he did! It was an experiment. What are the odds that his experiments would lead to valid generalizations about "unguided" falling objects? Lucky guesser! The question was how often are functional proteins found in random sequences. So they generated random sequences and tested them for function. gpuccio: The function is not naturally selectable, neither in its initial “minimal” form, nor in its final, engineered form. Therefore, the experiment is not about NS. In Hayashi et al., reproductive capability was the selection criterion. gpuccio: It has biological activity, which is not functional in the context of a cell. Showing benefit to the cell wasn't the purpose of the experiment. It was to show that the artificial sequence would fold into a functional enzyme and bind ATP in a natural cell. gpuccio: IOWs, it confers no advantages, either reproductive or else. Hayashi et al. does show reproductive advantage. gpuccio: That’s because there are no incremental, selectable pathways to new, complex protein functions. Of course there are, as these experiments show. gpuccio: Indeed, those kinds of experiment, including the ragged landscape paper, are really about NS, something which is not true of Szostak’s esperiment. And yet Hayashi et al. shows the same result! Lucky guesser!Zachriel
December 6, 2015
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Thanks for the article GP.Upright BiPed
December 5, 2015
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@26 Your writing is very clear. The problem could be your interlocutors' unwillingness to understand it. @29 Well done.Dionisio
December 5, 2015
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Zachriel: Small and scarcely relevant verbal skirmishes, at this point. However, for what it is worth:
In which case, experiments with optimizing selection are relevant.
Experiments with optimizing selection are relevant to optimizing selection, not certainly to selection of a completely new sequence and function. Your obsession with conflating things is becoming really pathological.
In the case of optimizing selection for a specific, naturally occurring function, what is the difference? What if selection is for reproductive advantage, as in Hayashi et al.?
The difference is obviously that NS can only, at best, optimize a specific, already existing function, and only if the optimization is achieved by small variations, and only if it is such that it gives significant reproductive advantage. That's a big difference, whatever you may say to obfuscate what is evident.
The few bits of variation result in turning a random sequence into a specific and complex three-dimensional structure.
The few bits of variation add some folding to a sequence already selected form a vast random library for a weak ATP binding site, so that the already existing affinity of the binding site is significantly improved. It's not the same thing.
Because they didn’t use recombination, of course.
Recombination of what, please? Just throwing in words does not change things.
Functional complexity exists in morphological space as well.
???
That merely reduces the search space somewhat.
It does, indeed. And if you quoted correctly, you would have said that I quoted that passage of the paper after the following statement: "Even the ATP binding example, indeed, is not a simple implementation of AS. It requires more: for example, the knowledge to build the initial library:" Are you denying that the designers of the experiment used some cognitive understanding of DNA and protein biology to build their initial library?
Well, that’s the experiment. It starts with a minimal function, then the structure becomes more specific through iterative selection. This shows that functional proteins are not that rare in sequence space, and that there are selective incremental pathways to increased specificity.
OK, and: a) The function is not naturally selectable, neither in its initial "minimal" form, nor in its final, engineered form. Therefore, the experiment is not about NS. b) This shows that minimal biochemical activities are not that rare in the protein space (whoever denied that?). And that AS and bottom-up protein engineering can incrementally increase the already present specificity which has been artificially selected in the beginning. And so? The experiment says nothing about the powers of natural selection. It says nothing about incremental pathways from one function to another completely different one.
It’s been shown that the artificial ATP-binding protein acted to bind ATP within a living cell, so it has biological function, even though it has a different sequence than the naturally occurring ATP-binding protein.
It has biological activity, which is not functional in the context of a cell. IOWs, it confers no advantages, either reproductive or else. And it definitely has a different sequence than the naturally occurring ATP-binding protein. I am happy that you are intelligent enough to realize that, because it seems that many of your fellow thinkers cannot realize such a simple fact. The naturally occurring ATP-binding protein has truly trivial biochemical activity. In a sense, it is better than the engineered one: at least, if introduced into a living cell, it should not create damage by subtracting ATP from the environment! Finally: ID before, after, and always: "Enzymes fold into a very complex and highly specific three-dimensional shape. I don’t believe that a really complex and functional protein capable of useful catalytic activity can evolve through unguided evolution. It requires design. That’s because there are no incremental, selectable pathways to new, complex protein functions. The combinatorial explosion prohibits it. Optimization of an existing function by small functional variation is in principle possible, if the variation is in the range of the probabilistic resources of the system. AS and bottom-up engineering are a form of design, and they can overcome, at least in part, some of the probabilistic barriers. However, for the most complex and efficient results, design in the form of top-down engineering is probably necessary." You still say:
In Hayashi et al., the advantage is reproductive.
Correct. Indeed, those kinds of experiment, including the ragged landscape paper, are really about NS, something which is not true of Szostak's esperiment. I have never said anything different. My comments about those experiments are different, and you have certainly read them in my posts #5 and #25.gpuccio
December 5, 2015
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gpuccio:
Just for the record: I don’t discuss with Alicia Cartelli.
For good reason.Mung
December 5, 2015
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Alicia Cartelli- Enough with your games. If you have a non-telic process for producing a functional protein consisting of 100 amino acids produce it so we can discuss it. cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 5, 2015
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“If I need 100 specific aminoacids to make something work (a case very common), then there is obviously no pathway which goes to that sequence step by step. Why? Because those 100 AAs are specific to the function.” Have any examples? Careful though, don’t confuse conserved amino acids with absolutely essential amino acids; that is rarely the case. Just because an amino acid is conserved, it does not mean that it is required for proper function. Swapping it out with another amino acid may reduce the efficiency of the enzyme to some degree, but function is still maintained.Alicia Cartelli
December 5, 2015
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That is correct, as experiments with protein evolution show.
Nonsense. Not one experiment with proteins demonstrates there is an unguided gradual pathway to producing CSI. Zachriel is being very dishonest with its posts.Virgil Cain
December 5, 2015
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gpuccio: Zachriel, argue that gradual pathways exist that will build those 500 bits of specific information in small steps. That is correct, as experiments with protein evolution show. gpuccio: Because those 100 AAs are specific to the function. Fragments of the sequence have no special meaning and function, unless the complete sequence is achieved.” Sure, but parent sequences can have their own functions, and existing sequences can be recombined. gpuccio: No gradual pathway exists to a new function which requires, for example, 500 bits of specific sequence information to appear. That is incorrect, as experiments with protein evolution shows. gpuccio: I did not claim that. In which case, experiments with optimizing selection are relevant. gpuccio: But the process of selection and its modalities, powers and results are completely different in NS and AS, which is exactly my point. In the case of optimizing selection for a specific, naturally occurring function, what is the difference? What if selection is for reproductive advantage, as in Hayashi et al.? gpuccio: The partial “optimization” (which remains however a strong reduction of function) is probably achieved through a few bits of variation, completely in the range of the probabilistic resources of that system. The few bits of variation result in turning a random sequence into a specific and complex three-dimensional structure. gpuccio: Try to explain why they do not achieve the wild type efficiency, or why, according to the authors of the ragged landscape paper, a starting random library of 10^70 molecules would be necessary for that result. Because they didn't use recombination, of course. gpuccio: My whole argument is based on the evaluation of functional complexity. Functional complexity exists in morphological space as well. gpuccio: We cannot evaluate the functional complexity of a variation whose molecular basis is not known. That would simply be very bad scientific methodology. We can be quite sure that the mammalian middle ear is far too specific, complex, and irreducible, to be the result of random assembly. gpuccio: “Because protein sequences with specific functions are expected to be quite rare in protein sequence space, we prepared a DNA library of 4 x 10^14 independently generated random sequences. This DNA library was specifically constructed to avoid stop codons and frameshift mutations, and was designed for use in mRNA display selections.” That merely reduces the search space somewhat. gpuccio: and then the rounds of mutation + selection: Well, that's the experiment. It starts with a minimal function, then the structure becomes more specific through iterative selection. This shows that functional proteins are not that rare in sequence space, and that there are selective incremental pathways to increased specificity. gpuccio: However, even with that effort, no really biologically useful protein was attained. It's been shown that the artificial ATP-binding protein acted to bind ATP within a living cell, so it has biological function, even though it has a different sequence than the naturally occurring ATP-binding protein. In Hayashi et al., of course, the random sequence was inserted into the phage itself. Selection was due to differences in reproductive rate. ID After: I don’t believe that a really complex and functional protein like ATP synthase, for example, cab be engineered by this kind of methodology alone. ID Before: Enzymes fold into a very complex and highly specific three-dimensional shape. I don’t believe that a really complex and functional protein capable of catalytic activity can evolve through directed evolution. That's because there are no incremental, selectable pathways. The combinatorial explosion prohibits it. gpuccio: In AS, the coupling between the defined function and the selection process is indirect and symbolic: the connection is established by the designer, by definite procedures designed by him. In Hayashi et al., the advantage is reproductive.Zachriel
December 5, 2015
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We can directly observe natural selection in the wild
Actually we can't do that because we don't know if the variations were accidental.
The evidence indicates there are many mechanisms other than simple random mutation at work in the history of life, including recombination, speciation, canalization, and endosymbiosis.
And not one of those is known to produce any complex functional systems.Virgil Cain
December 5, 2015
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OldArmy94: I wish I knew how to better articulate this ... Your articulation is fine. OldArmy94: but it seems to me that a big problem with natural selection is that there isn’t possibly enough time to “select” for all possible survival advantages from the population. There are just too many traits along an infinite scale of variation to make such a simplistic process work. We can directly observe natural selection in the wild, so we know it works. computerist: In your view, do you think there is any argument at all that can be made against evolution via NS&RM as the primary driving force of biological complexity? Sure. The evidence indicates there are many mechanisms other than simple random mutation at work in the history of life, including recombination, speciation, canalization, and endosymbiosis.Zachriel
December 5, 2015
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[...] suppose that we can safely assume at least 500 million years of evolutionary separation between fungi and metazoa. Maybe more than that. So, how can you explain that 121 AAs out of 136 are exactly the same after such a long evolutionary time? Have you any explanation which is better than extremely strong functional constraint?
I've read in this site some interlocutors affirming that the explanation has been known since long time ago and it's somewhere out there in the textbooks. We just don't understand biology. They recommend we study biology 101. :)Dionisio
December 5, 2015
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wd400: Here are the blast results for histone H3, human vs saccharomyces cerevisiae. Score: 248 bits Expect: 4e-84 Identities: 121/136(89%) Positives: 130/136(95%) Gaps: 0/136(0%) Now, I suppose that we can safely assume at least 500 million years of evolutionary separation between fungi and metazoa. Maybe more than that. So, how can you explain that 121 AAs out of 136 are exactly the same after such a long evolutionary time? Have you any explanation which is better than extremely strong functional constraint? Just to know.gpuccio
December 5, 2015
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BA: Thank you for the contributions. :) The simple fact is: a protein which avidly binds ATP, but has no other enzymatic function, except maybe minimal ATPase activity, is of no use, indeed it is a damage, because it simply subtracts ATP from the environment. ATP is a source of energy. ATP binding proteins, the true ones, use the energy in ATP to accomplish something. For example, take hexokinase, the first enzyme in glycolysis. It tranfers the phophate group from ATP to glucose, and so it starts the glycolysis process. You are right, 10^12 is a big number. But in some way we can prepare a library of that size. But just think of the size of the random library which would be necessary to retrieve wild type efficiency in the ragged landscape phage experiment, according to the authors: about 10^70! That's much more than the estimated number of atoms on our planet, which is about 10^50! I doubt that we will ever be able to prepare such a library. And even our whole planet obviously can't do that.gpuccio
December 5, 2015
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Dionisio #36: Corrected. Thank you for the tip. :)gpuccio
December 5, 2015
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gpuccio, thanks for your comments differentiating AS and NS. Here is a reference for one of your claims:
A Man-Made ATP-Binding Protein Evolved Independent of Nature Causes Abnormal Growth in Bacterial Cells - 2009 Excerpt: "Recent advances in de novo protein evolution have made it possible to create synthetic proteins from unbiased libraries that fold into stable tertiary structures with predefined functions. However, it is not known whether such proteins will be functional when expressed inside living cells or how a host organism would respond to an encounter with a non-biological protein. Here, we examine the physiology and morphology of Escherichia coli cells engineered to express a synthetic ATP-binding protein evolved entirely from non-biological origins. We show that this man-made protein disrupts the normal energetic balance of the cell by altering the levels of intracellular ATP. This disruption cascades into a series of events that ultimately limit reproductive competency by inhibiting cell division." http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007385
Dr. Hunter humorously notes the shortfall in Darwinian explanations (even supposing the protein would have been 'functional' in regards to NS):
How Proteins Evolved - Cornelius Hunter - December 2010 Excerpt: Comparing ATP binding with the incredible feats of hemoglobin, for example, is like comparing a tricycle with a jet airplane. And even the one in 10^12 shot, though it pales in comparison to the odds of constructing a more useful protein machine, is no small barrier. If that is what is required to even achieve simple ATP binding, then evolution would need to be incessantly running unsuccessful trials. The machinery to construct, use and benefit from a potential protein product would have to be in place, while failure after failure results. Evolution would make Thomas Edison appear lazy, running millions of trials after millions of trials before finding even the tiniest of function. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-proteins-evolved.html
Of related note, it is good to realize just how big 10^12 (a trillion) actually is:
"The largest dump truck in the world would have to carry more than nine full loads to move a trillion grains of sand. A regular dump truck will have to make 150 trips." http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2009/02/how-big-is-a-trillion/
A few more notes:
Protein Life Times: Just-Right Evidence for Design - Fazale Rana PhD. - biochemistry Excerpt: Researchers learned that the amino acid sequences are exquisitely arranged to precisely balance the need for structural stability, while minimizing aggregation propensity.,,, Yet the optimization of proteins is not limited to their aggregation propensities. A cascade of optimization characterizes protein structure and function. In The Cell’s Design, I described a number of other ways that protein structure is optimized. http://www.reasons.org/articles/protein-life-times-just-right-evidence-for-design Strange Behavior: New Study Exposes Living Cells to Synthetic Protein - Dec. 27, 2012 Excerpt: ,,,"ATP is the energy currency of life," Chaput says. The phosphodiester bonds of ATP contain the energy necessary to drive reactions in living systems, giving up their stored energy when these bonds are chemically cleaved. The depletion of available intracellular ATP by DX binding disrupts normal metabolic activity in the cells, preventing them from dividing, (though they continue to grow).,,, In the current study, E. coli cells exposed to DX transitioned into a filamentous form, which can occur naturally when such cells are subject to conditions of stress. The cells display low metabolic activity and limited cell division, presumably owing to their ATP-starved condition. The study also examined the ability of E. coli to recover following DX exposure. The cells were found to enter a quiescent state known as viable but non-culturable (VBNC), meaning that they survived ATP sequestration and returned to their non-filamentous state after 48 hours, but lost their reproductive capacity. Further, this condition was difficult to reverse and seems to involve a fundamental reprogramming of the cell. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121227143001.htm
bornagain
December 5, 2015
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"AS can measure the functioned defined by the designer at any desired level of sensitivity."Dionisio
December 5, 2015
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Dionisio: Welcome to the discussion! "The deeper scientists research, the more they discover, is there more information for us to understand?" Absolutely! Biological complexity seems really to be a bottomless well. At the end of the 19th century, many scientists believed in the "end of physics". Many still do. But physics seems still well far from its ending. Maybe neo darwinists (or variants) believe in the "end of biology". They will be really disappointed. If there may be any disappointement in the revelation of endless, beautiful intelligence. :)gpuccio
December 5, 2015
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"The designer starts by conceiving and defining a function: [...]. That is the functional specification, and it is a form conceived in the consciousness of the designer."
[...] the designer uses his cognitive understanding of [...] to devise a strategy to implement his goal.
Do software developers enter/modify code randomly until they reach "bingo!" moments (i.e. get something useful)? :)Dionisio
December 5, 2015
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There is certainly a great variety of functional implementation in different species, and we still understand very little about that. [@8]
As outstanding questions get answered, are new questions raised? The deeper scientists research, the more they discover, is there more information for us to understand?Dionisio
December 5, 2015
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Very interesting OP.Dionisio
December 5, 2015
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Nobody has commented on point number 2 in my summary. I believe it is a very important point, so I repeat it here:
2) In NS, the coupling between function and selection is direct: it’s the function itself which confers the reproductive advantage, which is the reason for the selection itself. In AS, the coupling between the defined function and the selection process is indirect and symbolic: the connection is established by the designer, by definite procedures designed by him.
That implies and configures, I believe, UB's concept of semiosis.gpuccio
December 5, 2015
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To all: I don't want to give the impression that I believe that AS can do everything. The point is: it is a form of design, even if indirect design: what is designed is the strategy to achieve a conceived result, by using some cognitive information available to the designer, or which is gradually acquired through the strategy. Therefore, it can do a lot more than NS. It can generate some dFSCI, while NS can't. But I don't think that a strategy based on AS only can achieve everything. More complex designs require more active input of cognitive content by the designer than just AS. Even the ATP binding example, indeed, is not a simple implementation of AS. It requires more: for example, the knowledge to build the initial library: "Because protein sequences with specific functions are expected to be quite rare in protein sequence space, we prepared a DNA library of 4 x 10^14 independently generated random sequences. This DNA library was specifically constructed to avoid stop codons and frameshift mutations, and was designed for use in mRNA display selections." and all the biological understanding and technology to implement the rounds of selection: " In each round the mRNA-displayed proteins were incubated with immobilized ATP, washed and eluted with free ATP. The eluted fractions were collected and amplified by polymerase chain reaction (PCR); this DNA was then used to generate a new library of mRNAdisplayed proteins, enriched in sequences that bind ATP, for input into the next round of selection" and then the rounds of mutation + selection: "In an effort to increase the proportion of these proteins that fold into an ATP-binding conformation, we mutagenized the library and carried out further rounds of in vitro selection and amplification. Three consecutive rounds with mutagenic PCR ampli®cation were performed with an average mutagenic rate of 3.7% per amino acid for each round." Well, that is certainly much more design than just breeding and selecting for desired traits! However, even with that effort, no really biologically useful protein was attained. I don't believe that a really complex and functional protein like ATP synthase, for example, cab be engineered by this kind of methodology alone. Such a sophisticated and effective result requires IMO other forms of design, including guided variation or direct building, which imply much greater understanding of protein biochemistry and of the relationship between sequence and function. Maybe one day we will be able to do that kind of thing, but certainly not only by AS on a starting random library. However, it is perfectly possible that some controlled RV followed by AS still will be a part of the whole procedure.gpuccio
December 5, 2015
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Mung: Just for the record: I don't discuss with Alicia Cartelli.gpuccio
December 5, 2015
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Alicia Cartelli:
Completely false. You could not be any more wrong.
Completely false. You could not be any more wrong. Another weekend of your nonsense? Don't you have some research to catch up on?Mung
December 4, 2015
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