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Natural Sources of Information?

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Excerpted from Canceled Science, by Eric Hedin:

The Environment

In systems which are far from thermodynamic equilibrium, differences or gradients in various thermodynamic variables may exist within the system and between the system and the environment. It has sometimes been mistakenly assumed that these gradients could generate the information found in living systems.[i] However, while thermodynamic gradients may produce complexity, they do not generate information. The foam and froth at the bottom of a waterfall, or the clouds of ash erupting out of a volcano, represent a high level of complexity due to the thermodynamic gradients driving their production, but for information to arise, specificity must be coupled with the complexity. Biological systems are information-rich because they contain a high level of specified complexity, which thermodynamic gradients, or any other natural processes, act to destroy rather than to create.

During a non-equilibrium process, statistical fluctuations become negligibly small for systems with even more than ten particles, which easily applies for any system relevant to the origin and development of life.[ii] Charles Kittel, writing on the topic of thermodynamics, considers a system composed of the number of particles in about a gram of carbon. This amount is relevant to origin-of-life scenarios since physical constraints on the need for localization of the raw ingredients leading to life mean that considering larger amounts of carbon-based ingredients wouldn’t affect the outcome of this argument. Kittel emphasizes that even small statistical fluctuations from the most probable configuration of such a system (with its particles randomly mixed) will never occur in a time frame as short as the entire history of our universe.[iii] This means that any appeal to statistical fluctuations as the source of new biological information flatly contradicts the physics of statistical mechanics. It is therefore not possible to have “an accumulation of information as the result of a series of discrete and incremental steps,” as has been postulated.[iv] Again, for systems with as many constituent atoms as biomolecules have, the information content will decrease with time, and never increase.[v]

Nonetheless, others have tried to suggest that certain natural processes can, in fact, generate new biological information. At times this opinion rests on misidentifying increasing information with decreasing thermodynamic entropy.[vi] Decreasing thermodynamic entropy can only be leveraged into information if a design template and the mechanism to employ it already exist. In this case, the desired information is not being created by the action of the low-entropy energy source; it is merely being transferred from the template to an output product. An example of such a system is a printing press—it takes energy to make it run, entropy increases during the process, and information is printed. But the important point to understand is that the whole process produces no information beyond what pre-exists in the type-set template of the printing press mechanism.

Our sun is a low-entropy source of thermal energy that the Earth receives via electromagnetic radiation. This thermal energy is useful energy in the thermodynamic sense because it can be used to do work. The same is true of energy released by gravitational potential energy being converted into kinetic energy or heat. Waterfalls and solar collectors can produce energy for useful work, but they are sterile with respect to generating information.

In fact, sources of natural energy (sunlight, fire, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc.) universally destroy complex specified information, and never create it. What will happen to a painting if left outside in the elements? What happens to a note tossed into a mulch pile? They degrade by the actions of nature, until all traces of information disappear. Or consider an unfortunate opossum killed on a country road. Will its internal, complex biochemistry increase or decrease with time due to the effects of natural forces? We all know the answer. If not eaten by scavengers, it eventually turns to a pile of dirt.


[i] Jonathan Lunine, Earth: Evolution of a Habitable World, 2nd ed. (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2013), 151.

[ii] Hobson, Concepts in Statistical Mechanics, 143.

[iii] Charles Kittel, Thermal Physics (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1969), 44–45.

[iv] Robert O’Connor, “The Design Inference: Old Wine in New Wineskins,” in God and Design: The Teleological Argument and Modern Science, ed. Neil A. Manson (Abingdon: Routledge, 2003).

[v] Hobson, Concepts in Statistical Mechanics, 153.

[vi] Brian Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality (New York: Vintage Books, 2004), 175; Franklin M. Harold, The Way of the Cell: Molecules, Organisms and the Order of Life (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001), 228–229.

Comments
Bornagain77, Great videos, thank you and well said! When they were talking about context with respect to Quantum Mechanics, it reminded me of context with respect to Information as we were discussing. It strengthens the idea that Information doesn't exist in isolation by itself. Regarding Dr. Hossenfelder, I also enjoy her videos and her candor with respect to "lost in math," but as you noted, she suffers from ideological poisoning, which prevents her from accepting that probabilities are as real as a pair of dice and that just a dash of randomness, to which she admits, spoils her deterministic materialism with chaos rather than an impossibly complex initial condition in the universe. The real challenge is accepting that context, information, and free will seems to come from "outside" our material reality, or better yet, that our perceived reality is a very realistic illusion or simulation.
So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? - Jesus as quoted in Luke 16:11 (NIV)
-QQuerius
September 13, 2022
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Seversky states;
The blessed Sabine Hossenfelder says that a conscious observer is not required to perform observations/measurements, unmanned instruments will work, even interaction with environmental particles will suffice. So, no observer – human or otherwise – required.
The "blessed" Sabine Hossenfelder? "Blessed"??? And exactly how is "blessed' sainthood supposed to be achieved in your Atheistic worldview Seversky? :) But anyways regardless of her status as a 'blessed' saint, and although Sabine Hossenfelder has shown herself willing to fight against evidence-free theories such as String theory, Sabine Hossenfelder has also, unfortunately, chosen to ignore empirical evidence when it conflicts with her a-priori commitment to Atheistic Naturalism. Specifically, Sabine Hosenfelder herself, instead of accepting experimental results from quantum mechanics, via Zeilinger and company, that now show we have complete free will in determining the measurement settings in our quantum experiments,,,
Cosmic Bell Test Using Random Measurement Settings from High-Redshift Quasars – Anton Zeilinger – 14 June 2018 Abstract excerpt: This experiment pushes back to at least approx. 7.8 Gyr ago the most recent time by which any local-realist influences could have exploited the “freedom-of-choice” loophole to engineer the observed Bell violation, excluding any such mechanism from 96% of the space-time volume of the past light cone of our experiment, extending from the big bang to today. https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.121.080403
,, Hossenfelder, instead of accepting those experimental results, has instead opted to say that events in the remote past, prior to the formation of the earth itself, were somehow ‘superdetermined’ prior to the Big Bang.
Sabine Hossenfelder Proposes Superdeterminism” To Replace Quantum Mechanics https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/sabine-hossenfelder-proposes-superdeterminism-to-replace-quantum-mechanics/
Moreover, these ‘superdetermined’ events somehow ‘conspire’ to fool us into erroneously believing our experimental results that show us that quantum theory is correct (and that we do have the free will necessary to choose our measurement settings).
Closing the ‘free will’ loophole: Using distant quasars to test Bell’s theorem – February 20, 2014 Excerpt: Though two major loopholes have since been closed, a third remains; physicists refer to it as “setting independence,” or more provocatively, “free will.” This loophole proposes that a particle detector’s settings may “conspire” with events in the shared causal past of the detectors themselves to determine which properties of the particle to measure — a scenario that, however far-fetched, implies that a physicist running the experiment does not have complete free will in choosing each detector’s setting. Such a scenario would result in biased measurements, suggesting that two particles are correlated more than they actually are, and giving more weight to quantum mechanics than classical physics. “It sounds creepy, but people realized that’s a logical possibility that hasn’t been closed yet,” says MIT’s David Kaiser, the Germeshausen Professor of the History of Science and senior lecturer in the Department of Physics. “Before we make the leap to say the equations of quantum theory tell us the world is inescapably crazy and bizarre, have we closed every conceivable logical loophole, even if they may not seem plausible in the world we know today?” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140220112515.htm
To call such a move on the part of Sabine Hossenfelder, (i.e. the rejection of experimental results that conflict with her apriori philosophical belief in Atheistic Naturalism), unscientific would be a severe understatement. It is a rejection of the entire scientific method itself. She, in her appeal to ‘superdeterminism’, is basically arguing that we cannot trust what the experimental results of quantum mechanics themselves are telling us because events in the remote past ‘conspired’ to give us erroneous experimental results today. As should be needless to say, if we cannot trust what our experimental results are telling us, then empirical science is, for all practical purposes, dead. Likewise, Sabine Hossenfelder's claim, (via Seversky), that "a conscious observer is not required to perform observations/measurements, unmanned instruments will work, even interaction with environmental particles will suffice" is also found to be in direct conflict with empirical science. Specifically, interaction free measurements, “Renninger-type” experiments, falsifies 'decoherence' as a explanation for the 'measurement problem'.
The Mental Universe – Richard Conn Henry – Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke “decoherence” – the notion that “the physical environment” is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in “Renninger-type” experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf The Renninger Negative Result Experiment – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3uzSlh_CV0 An Interaction-Free Quantum Experiment (Zeilinger Bomb Tester experiment, and in the double slit experiment, the Detector can be placed at one slit during the double slit experiment and yet the photon or electron still collapses in the unobserved slit) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOv8zYla1wY Elitzur–Vaidman bomb tester Excerpt: In 1994, Anton Zeilinger, Paul Kwiat, Harald Weinfurter, and Thomas Herzog actually performed an equivalent of the above experiment, proving interaction-free measurements are indeed possible.[2] In 1996, Kwiat et al. devised a method, using a sequence of polarising devices, that efficiently increases the yield rate to a level arbitrarily close to one. per wikipedia
As well, the following video also clearly explains why decoherence does not solve the measurement problem:
The Measurement Problem in quantum mechanics – (Inspiring Philosophy) – 2014 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB7d5V71vUE
So Seversky is once again, (for 10,000th time), found to be making claims that are in direct conflict with empirical science. And all this dishonesty on Seversky's part apparently stems from his irrational hatred of God that he harbors in his imagination. (an irrational hatred of God which he has demonstrated a thousand times here on UD) You really need to deal with that irrational hatred of God Seversky. It is simply making a fool of you as far as empirical science itself is concerned.
Romans 1:20-23 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
bornagain77
September 13, 2022
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Seversky, Have you heard of the double slit experiment? https://youtu.be/Q1YqgPAtzho Human observation makes ALL the difference. Sabine Hossenfelder hasn't proved that a human observer is not required. It's her opinion. For all she knows, our observation of instruments simply sets off a Von Neumann chain of collapsing wavefunctions. She also (grudgingly) admits that non-deterministic random events do exist in the universe. This is also similar to Darwinists when they presuppose that no intelligence is needed to explain the appearance of design, let's say, the human immune system, and then they conclude that none is required since random undirected genetic drift MUSTA resulted in the incredibly complex and effective result, But they have never been able to demonstrate the spontaneous creation of NEW design information, but simply parade around degradations of what was already present, announcing that change is the same as progress. Again, randomness is not data, and data is not information. But what exactly is information? Information is carried by data but not closely bound by data as I demonstrated previously. One can measure data compression with the misnamed Shannon Information, but what are the units of measure for INFORMATION? Candelas? Calories? -QQuerius
September 13, 2022
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If we have only known of the quantum world for about a hundred years, who or what was doing all the observing/measuring before that? Most of us cannot observe/measure the quantum world directly. We don't have the sensory apparatus. Only a relatively small number of scientists have the equipment to do it. So where is all this other observation/measurement coming from? The blessed Sabine Hossenfelder says that a conscious observer is not required to perform observations/measurements, unmanned instruments will work, even interaction with environmental particles will suffice. So, no observer - human or otherwise - required.Seversky
September 13, 2022
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"The environmentally generated designs, they are a-changin’!" Sev, How can you tell? Andrewasauber
September 13, 2022
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The environmentally generated designs, they are a-changin'!Seversky
September 13, 2022
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"What an odd question!" AF, Not at all. Are you saying the environmentally generated design is always changing? Andrewasauber
September 13, 2022
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exactly when did the environment design the Dandelion and where can we see the schematic?
What an odd question! Everyone here seems satisfied with evidence-free "Intelligent Design". You have no idea how the "Design" process works yet you want every last detail for evolution. Anyway, selection is a continuous process. Differential reproductive success is cumulative, making small changes due the composition of the dandelion's gene pool. Evolution and selection never sleep.Alan Fox
September 13, 2022
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"environment as designer" AF, I'm going to channel my Inner JVL and ask you, exactly when did the environment design the Dandelion and where can we see the schematic? Andrewasauber
September 13, 2022
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A study has now shown that the dandelion seed’s aeronautical design is more efficient than any man-made parachute.
An excellent example of the power of natural selection and the environment as designer.Alan Fox
September 13, 2022
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Bornagain77, Sweet and amazing! Thank you. Alan Fox, https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/at-big-think-can-we-predict-evolution/ -QQuerius
September 13, 2022
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A Darwinist pointing to dandelions as evidence for Darwinian evolution?,, Really?,,, All I can say is, nice 'own goal' buddy. A study has now shown that the dandelion seed’s aeronautical design is more efficient than any man-made parachute.
2-MINUTE WONDERS: Uplifting Story https://vimeo.com/401099079
bornagain77
September 13, 2022
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Hey, Querius, I owe you a response on DNA degradation but didn't bookmark the thread. Do you happen to have a link? TIAAlan Fox
September 12, 2022
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DandelionsAlan Fox
September 12, 2022
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Relatd @32,
I propose that an active link to the quantum world by human beings is different than the link of unintelligent things like plants and rocks. I further propose that this will be discovered through experiment.
Wavefunction collapse is initiated by conscious human observation, possibly resulting in a Von Neumann chain of additional wavefunction collapses. It would be interesting to experimentally determine whether a trained animal can collapse wavefunctions as well as humans. An interesting experiment, currently out of reach, is whether wavefunctions have gravitational attraction before collapse. -QQuerius
September 11, 2022
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Querius at 31, Human beings are involved directly in affecting the quantum world. To put it another way, we are linked to the quantum world. This is automatic and always on. Our very existence, and the existence of all things in that they are composed of atoms and all atoms are made of sub-atomic particles, are linked to the quantum world. I propose that an active link to the quantum world by human beings is different than the link of unintelligent things like plants and rocks. I further propose that this will be discovered through experiment. The human link is separate from the animal link and these are separate from the link maintained by non-living things. Our human consciousness through our choice to observe has an automatic effect on the quantum world. The interaction for animals is based on instinct. For non-living things, it involves a steady state interaction.relatd
September 11, 2022
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Relatd @30, Just to be clear, I'm not denying we're an integrated part of reality and quantum experiments. What I'm trying to say is that our decision as to what, when, and how we observe something at the quantum level is NOT also initiated at the quantum level, otherwise we wouldn't observe quantum entanglement or von Neumann chains. Our decisions (aka the "Heisenberg choice") emerge from from outside our physical environment. Here's a paper on the subject: https://philarchive.org/archive/CAPQMO The note on page 3 reads as follows:
We recall that von Neumann’s quantum theory is a formulation in which the entire physical universe, including the bodies and brains of the conscious human participant/observers, is represented by the basic quantum state. The dynamics involves three processes. Process 1 is the choice on the part of the experimenter about how he will act. This choice is sometimes called the "Heisenberg choice", because Heisenberg emphasized strongly its crucial role in quantum dynamics. At the pragmatic level it is a "free choice", because it is controlled, at least at the practical level, by the conscious intentions of the experimenter/participant: neither the Copenhagen nor von Neumann formulations specify the causal origins of this choice, apart from the conscious intentions of the human agent. Process 2 is the quantum analog of the equations of motion of classical physics, and like its classical counterpart is local (i.e., via contact between neighbors) and deterministic. This process is constructed from the classical one by a certain quantization procedure, and is reduced back to the classical process by taking the classical approximation. It normally has the effect of expanding the microscopic uncertainties demanded by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle into the macroscopic domain: the centers of large objects are smeared out over large regions of space. This conflict with conscious experience is resolved by invoking Processes 1 and 3. Process 3 is sometimes call the "Dirac choice". Dirac called it a "choice on the part of Nature". It can be regarded as Nature’s answer to a question effectively posed by the Process 1 choice made by the experimenter. This posed question is: will the intended consequences of the action that the agent chooses to perform actually be experienced? (e.g.,will the Geiger counter be observed to be placed in the intended place? And, if so, will the specified action of that device be observed to occur?) Processes 1 and 3 act on the variables that specify the body/brain of the agent. According Stapp, the "Yes" answer actualizes the neural correlates of the intended action or associated feedback.
-QQuerius
September 11, 2022
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Querius at 28, ". . . it allows conscious human attention and choice to have a tiny, independent effect on reality, which is in humbling contrast to the Creator through whom all things hold together." Not quite. Man has been integrated into the very fabric of reality. In the quantum world, we not only see things but we can affect them; we are needed to produce outcomes. It was designed by God to be this way.relatd
September 11, 2022
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Ba77 at 26, I don't know why you question my statement. A few facts. The universe, as understood by "classical physics," is intelligible. Entirely. Once we get into the sub-atomic, or quantum realm, we see different rules in play but it is also intelligible with finite outcomes. Once the rules of the game, so to speak, are understood, it has exactly the same intelligibility as the macro, classic physics world. The only surprise or "weirdness," is that the rules do not follow classical physics. That is my point. IBM could not have made quantum chips or built quantum computers without an understanding of the quantum world and its rules. Once those were understood, and that these rules were predictable, they could build devices that will only increase in terms of functional power.relatd
September 11, 2022
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Or, one can try to process the following observation concerning quantum contextuality:
In 2014, Mark Howard, et al. showed that contextuality characterises magic states for qudits of odd prime dimension and for qubits with real wavefunctions.
along with a parade of the complete Greek alphabet and then some. But many of these theorists are convinced that deterministic materialism just gotta be true, despite "magic states" and that conscious human choice determines quantum outcomes which also control conscious human choice. Gack! It seems that nature preserves its modesty by means of a fan dance that limits what we can know. But as Bornagain77 notes,
Moreover, when we rightly allow the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics . . .
. . . it allows conscious human attention and choice to have a tiny, independent effect on reality, which is in humbling contrast to the Creator through whom all things hold together. -QQuerius
September 11, 2022
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Specifically, "Newton’s voluntarism moved him to affirm an intimate relationship between the creator and the creation; his God was acted on the world at all times and in ways that Leibniz and other mechanical philosophers could not conceive of,,"
“Newton’s Rejection of the “Newtonian World View”: The Role of Divine Will in Newton’s Natural Philosophy – (Davis, 1991) Abstract: The significance of Isaac Newton for the history of Christianity and science is undeniable: his professional work culminated the Scientific Revolution that saw the birth of modern science,,, Newton’s voluntarist conception of God had three major consequences for his natural philosophy. First, it led him to reject Descartes’ version of the mechanical philosophy, in which matter was logically equated with extension, in favor of the belief that the properties of matter were freely determined by an omnipresent God, who remained free to move the particles of matter according to God’s will. Second, Newton’s voluntarism moved him to affirm an intimate relationship between the creator and the creation; his God was acted on the world at all times and in ways that Leibniz and other mechanical philosophers could not conceive of, such as causing parts of matter to attract one another at a distance. Finally, Newton held that, since the world is a product of divine freedom rather than necessity, the laws of nature must be inferred from the phenomena of nature, not deduced from metaphysical axioms — as both Descartes and Leibniz were wont to do. http://home.messiah.edu/~tdavis/newton.htm
And since Newton also held the orthodox belief that man is made in the image of God,,,
Priest of Nature - the religious worlds of Isaac Newton - R. Iliffe (Princeton University Press, 2017) Excerpt page 5: "The analogy between the human and the divine would remain at the heart of Newtons theological metaphysics. In the essay on God, space, and time that he penned in the early 1690s, the analogy between man and God played a key role. Was it not most agreeable to reason, he asked, that Gods creatures shared his attributes as far as possible as fruit the nature of the tree, and an image the likeness of a man, and by sharing tend towards perfection? Similarly, was it not reasonable to believe that God could be discerned in the more perfect creatures as in a mirror? Such a view also enabled humans to understand the being and attributes of the divine." https://www.yoono.org/download/prinat.pdf
,,, and since Newton also held to the orthodox belief that man is made in the image of God, (and since he explicitly rejected the mechanical and/or necessitarian philosophy), then I hold that Newton would be very pleased to see the recent closing of the “freedom of choice” loophole within quantum mechanics. Moreover, when we rightly allow the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, (as the Christian founders of modern science originally envisioned, Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, and Max Planck, to name a few of the Christian founders,,,, and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands with the closing of the “freedom-of-choice” loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), then rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead bridges the infinite mathematical divide that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics and provides us with an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”
December 2021 – When scrutinizing some of the many fascinating details of the Shroud of Turin, we find that both General Relativity, i.e. gravity, and Quantum Mechanics were both dealt with in Christ’s resurrection from the dead. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/in-time-for-american-thanksgiving-stephen-meyer-on-the-frailty-of-scientific-atheism/#comment-741600 The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead as the correct “Theory of Everything” – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpn2Vu8–eE
Verses:
Matthew 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.” Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
September 11, 2022
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Relatd, "Once the conditions and method of measurement are defined in the quantum world, any “weirdness” disappears. There are only finite outcomes." Well, if you consider the fact that "we are not just passive observers" to not be 'weird' then I guess your statement might have a ring of truth about it.
“The Kochen-Speckter Theorem talks about properties of one system only. So we know that we cannot assume – to put it precisely, we know that it is wrong to assume that the features of a system, which we observe in a measurement exist prior to measurement. Not always. I mean in certain cases. So in a sense, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.” - Anton Zeilinger – Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video (7:17 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4C5pq7W5yRM#t=437 Quantum contextuality Quantum contextuality is a feature of the phenomenology of quantum mechanics whereby measurements of quantum observables cannot simply be thought of as revealing pre-existing values. ,,, Contextuality was first demonstrated to be a feature of quantum phenomenology by the Bell–Kochen–Specker theorem.[1],,, 1. S. Kochen and E.P. Specker, “The problem of hidden variables in quantum mechanics”, Journal of Mathematics and Mechanics 17, 59–87 (1967) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_contextuality
,, but if, like the late atheist Steven Weinberg, you consider the fact that "humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level", and "In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure", to be unacceptably 'weird', then your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
The Trouble with Quantum Mechanics – Steven Weinberg – January 19, 2017 Excerpt: The instrumentalist approach,, (the) wave function,, is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made.,, In the instrumentalist approach,,, humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal,,, Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,, http://quantum.phys.unm.edu/466-17/QuantumMechanicsWeinberg.pdf
In fact the late Weinberg, again an atheist, rejected the instrumentalist approach precisely because “humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level” and because it undermined the Darwinian worldview from within. Yet, regardless of how he and other atheists may prefer the world to behave, quantum mechanics itself could care less how atheists prefer the world to behave. For prime example, in 2018 Anton Zeilinger and company have now pushed the ‘freedom of choice’ loophole back to 7.8 billion years ago, thereby firmly establishing the ‘common sense’ fact that the free will choices of the experimenter in the quantum experiments are truly free and are not determined by any possible causal influences from the past for at least the last 7.8 billion years, and that the experimenters themselves are therefore shown to be truly free to choose whatever measurement settings in the experiments that he or she may so desire to choose so as to ‘logically’ probe whatever aspect of reality that he or she may be interested in probing.
Cosmic Bell Test Using Random Measurement Settings from High-Redshift Quasars – Anton Zeilinger – 14 June 2018 Abstract excerpt: This experiment pushes back to at least approx. 7.8 Gyr ago the most recent time by which any local-realist influences could have exploited the “freedom-of-choice” loophole to engineer the observed Bell violation, excluding any such mechanism from 96% of the space-time volume of the past light cone of our experiment, extending from the big bang to today. https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.121.080403
Thus regardless of how Steven Weinberg and other atheists may prefer the universe to behave, with the closing of the ‘freedom of choice’ loophole in quantum mechanics, “humans are (indeed) brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level”, and thus these recent findings from quantum mechanics directly undermine, as the late Weinberg himself honestly admitted, the “vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else.” That humans, via the free will of their immaterial mind, should be "brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level” should not be all that surprising for us to find out. Specifically, the 'contingency' of the universe was a necessary presupposition that was essential for the rise of modern science inn Medieval Christian Europe. Namely, a necessary Judeo-Christian presupposition that lay at the founding of modern science was the belief that the universe is not ‘necessary' in its existence, as atheists hold, but that the universe is ‘contingent’ upon the will of God for its existence.
“Science in its modern form arose in the Western civilization alone, among all the cultures of the world”, because only the Christian West possessed the necessary “intellectual presuppositions”. – Ian Barbour Presupposition 1: The contingency of nature “In 1277, the Etienne Tempier, the bishop of Paris, writing with support of Pope John XXI, condemned “necessarian theology” and 219 separate theses influenced by Greek philosophy about what God could and couldn’t do.”,, “The order in nature could have been otherwise (therefore) the job of the natural philosopher, (i.e. scientist), was not to ask what God must have done but (to ask) what God actually did.” Presupposition 2: The intelligibility of nature “Modern science was inspired by the conviction that the universe is the product of a rational mind who designed it to be understood and who (also) designed the human mind to understand it.” (i.e. human exceptionalism), “God created us in his own image so that we could share in his own thoughts” – Johannes Kepler Presupposition 3: Human Fallibility “Humans are vulnerable to self-deception, flights of fancy, and jumping to conclusions.”, (i.e. original sin), Scientists must therefore employ “systematic experimental methods.” (Francis Bacon’s inductive methodology) – Stephen Meyer on Intelligent Design and The Return of the God Hypothesis – Hoover Institution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_8PPO-cAlA
As Stephen Meyer stated elsewhere, "(the order of the universe) is an order that is contingent upon the will of the Creator. It could have been otherwise.",,
“That (contingency) was a huge concept (that was important for the founding of modern science). The historians of science call that ‘contingency’. The idea that nature has an order that is built into it. But it is an order that is contingent upon the will of the Creator. It could have been otherwise. Just as there are many ways to make a timepiece, or a clock,,, there are many different ways God could have ordered the universe. And it is up to us not to deduce that order from first principles, or from some intuitions that we have about how nature ought to be, but rather it is important to go out and see how nature actually is.” – Stephen Meyer – 5:00 minute mark – Andrew Klavan and Stephen Meyer Talk God and Science https://idthefuture.com/1530/
And indeed, the belief in 'contingency', and/or ‘divine will’, played an integral role in Sir Isaac Newton’s founding of modern physics.
Newton — Rationalizing Christianity, or Not? – Rosalind W. Picard – 1998 Excerpt: The belief that it was by divine will and not by some shadow of necessity that matter existed and possessed its properties, had a direct impact on Newton’s science. It was necessary to discover laws and properties by experimental means, and not by rational deduction. As Newton wrote in another unpublished manuscript, “The world might have been otherwise,,” (see Davis, 1991) https://web.media.mit.edu/~picard/personal/Newton.php ‘Without all doubt this world...could arise from nothing but the perfectly free will of God... From this fountain (what) we call the laws of nature have flowed, in which there appear many traces indeed of the most wise contrivance, but not the least shadow of necessity. These therefore we must not seek from uncertain conjectures, but learn them from observations and experiments.",,, - Sir Isaac Newton - (Cited from Religion and the Rise of Modern Science by Hooykaas page 49). https://thirdspace.org.au/comment/237
bornagain77
September 11, 2022
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Ba77 at 19, "Contextuality means that quantum measurements can not be thought of as simply revealing some pre-existing properties of the system under study. That’s part of the weirdness of quantum mechanics." Once the conditions and method of measurement are defined in the quantum world, any "weirdness" disappears. There are only finite outcomes.relatd
September 10, 2022
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Excellent posts! And no one has complained about God yet (i.e. shouting squirrel at a dog show). Regarding context, information and its consequences are also highly Bayesian in that if I can control the contextual environment, the information is of necessity skewed. This applies both to the introduction of additional, adjacent information as well as additional detail or granularity of the current information. So, this is why in any discussion or argument, the framing of the argument, presuppositions and assumptions, and information allowed into it often determines the outcome. Let's look at several related pieces of information: 1. A man was shot and killed on the street. 2. Five people nearby are interviewed by police, but none of them said they observed the murder. 3. One of the five has a firearm in his possession. 4. That person was observed by two of the other people arguing with the victim. 5. The firearm has been recently fired and the owner's hand had powder residue on it. 6. Police arrested the person with the firearm. . . . 7. The firearm was .22 caliber, but the wound and the recovered bullet was .45 caliber. One cannot predict whether some tiny detail, if true, can falsify the conclusion. -QQuerius
September 10, 2022
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In simplest terms, form, must be informed.kairosfocus
September 10, 2022
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Sept. 2022 - Perhaps the easiest way to validate the claim that "the fundamental stuff of the world is information (Dembski)," is with quantum teleportation. With quantum teleportation, (and directly contrary to the Darwinian materialist's claim that information is 'emergent' from a material basis), we find that it is the information that is actually 'defining' photons and atoms to be what they are. As the following article states, "the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/natural-sources-of-information/#comment-765131
Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ’clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ’copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original, and the process can take place at the speed of light. So it’s as if the original atom vanishes at one place and reappears elsewhere, sent there at light speed. In other words, this is a form of teleportation.,,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp
Further notes,
How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. --- As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf Quantum Teleportation Enters the Real World – September 19, 2016 Excerpt: Two separate teams of scientists have taken quantum teleportation from the lab into the real world. Researchers working in Calgary, Canada and Hefei, China, used existing fiber optics networks to transmit small units of information across cities via quantum entanglement — Einstein’s “spooky action at a distance.”,,, This isn’t teleportation in the “Star Trek” sense — the photons aren’t disappearing from one place and appearing in another. Instead, it’s the information that’s being teleported through quantum entanglement.,,, ,,, it is only the information that gets teleported from one place to another. https://www.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2016/09/19/quantum-teleportation-enters-real-world/#.V-HqWNEoDtR First Teleportation Between Distant Atoms – 2009 Excerpt: For the first time, scientists have successfully teleported information between two separate atoms in unconnected enclosures a meter apart – a significant milestone in the global quest for practical quantum information processing. Teleportation may be nature’s most mysterious form of transport: Quantum information, such as the spin of a particle or the polarization of a photon, is transferred from one place to another, but without traveling through any physical medium. It has previously been achieved between photons over very large distances, between photons and ensembles of atoms, and between two nearby atoms through the intermediary action of a third. None of those, however, provides a feasible means of holding and managing quantum information over long distances. Now a team from the Joint Quantum Institute (JQI) at the University of Maryland (UMD) and the University of Michigan has succeeded in teleporting a quantum state directly from one atom to another over a substantial distance https://jqi.umd.edu/news/first-teleportation-between-distant-atoms
Verse:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and that life was the Light of men.
bornagain77
September 10, 2022
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Perhaps the easiest way to validate the claim that "the fundamental stuff of the world is information (Dembski)," is with quantum teleportation. With quantum teleportation, (and directly contrary to the Darwinian materialist's claim that information is 'emergent' from a material basis), we find that it is the information that is actually 'defining' photons and atoms to be what they are. As the following article states, "the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second."
Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ’clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ’copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original, and the process can take place at the speed of light. So it’s as if the original atom vanishes at one place and reappears elsewhere, sent there at light speed. In other words, this is a form of teleportation.,,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp
Further notes,
How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. --- As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf Quantum Teleportation Enters the Real World – September 19, 2016 Excerpt: Two separate teams of scientists have taken quantum teleportation from the lab into the real world. Researchers working in Calgary, Canada and Hefei, China, used existing fiber optics networks to transmit small units of information across cities via quantum entanglement — Einstein’s “spooky action at a distance.”,,, This isn’t teleportation in the “Star Trek” sense — the photons aren’t disappearing from one place and appearing in another. Instead, it’s the information that’s being teleported through quantum entanglement.,,, ,,, it is only the information that gets teleported from one place to another. https://www.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2016/09/19/quantum-teleportation-enters-real-world/#.V-HqWNEoDtR First Teleportation Between Distant Atoms – 2009 Excerpt: For the first time, scientists have successfully teleported information between two separate atoms in unconnected enclosures a meter apart – a significant milestone in the global quest for practical quantum information processing. Teleportation may be nature’s most mysterious form of transport: Quantum information, such as the spin of a particle or the polarization of a photon, is transferred from one place to another, but without traveling through any physical medium. It has previously been achieved between photons over very large distances, between photons and ensembles of atoms, and between two nearby atoms through the intermediary action of a third. None of those, however, provides a feasible means of holding and managing quantum information over long distances. Now a team from the Joint Quantum Institute (JQI) at the University of Maryland (UMD) and the University of Michigan has succeeded in teleporting a quantum state directly from one atom to another over a substantial distance https://jqi.umd.edu/news/first-teleportation-between-distant-atoms
bornagain77
September 10, 2022
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Translation of one type of stimulus into another type is not natural because imply coding-decoding mechanism realized only by functional information.Lieutenant Commander Data
September 10, 2022
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Querius, "information is highly dependent on context",,, To further solidify the connection between quantum mechanics and 'information', and Interestingly, and via 'quantum contextuality", we find that "In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation.,,, Measurement outcomes depend on all the other measurements that are performed – the full context of the experiment."
Contextuality is ‘magic ingredient’ for quantum computing – June 11, 2012 Excerpt: Contextuality was first recognized as a feature of quantum theory almost 50 years ago. The theory showed that it was impossible to explain measurements on quantum systems in the same way as classical systems. In the classical world, measurements simply reveal properties that the system had, such as colour, prior to the measurement. In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation. Imagine turning over a playing card. It will be either a red suit or a black suit – a two-outcome measurement. Now imagine nine playing cards laid out in a grid with three rows and three columns. Quantum mechanics predicts something that seems contradictory – there must be an even number of red cards in every row and an odd number of red cards in every column. Try to draw a grid that obeys these rules and you will find it impossible. It’s because quantum measurements cannot be interpreted as merely revealing a pre-existing property in the same way that flipping a card reveals a red or black suit. Measurement outcomes depend on all the other measurements that are performed – the full context of the experiment. Contextuality means that quantum measurements can not be thought of as simply revealing some pre-existing properties of the system under study. That’s part of the weirdness of quantum mechanics. http://phys.org/news/2014-06-weird-magic-ingredient-quantum.html Further notes Quantum contextuality Quantum contextuality is a feature of the phenomenology of quantum mechanics whereby measurements of quantum observables cannot simply be thought of as revealing pre-existing values. ,,, Contextuality was first demonstrated to be a feature of quantum phenomenology by the Bell–Kochen–Specker theorem.[1],,, 1. S. Kochen and E.P. Specker, "The problem of hidden variables in quantum mechanics", Journal of Mathematics and Mechanics 17, 59–87 (1967) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_contextuality “The Kochen-Speckter Theorem talks about properties of one system only. So we know that we cannot assume – to put it precisely, we know that it is wrong to assume that the features of a system, which we observe in a measurement exist prior to measurement. Not always. I mean in certain cases. So in a sense, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.” Anton Zeilinger – Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video (7:17 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4C5pq7W5yRM#t=437 The Free Will Theorem of Conway and Kochen Excerpt: Since the free will theorem applies to any arbitrary physical theory consistent with the axioms, it would not even be possible to place the information into the universe's past in an ad hoc way. The argument proceeds from the Kochen-Specker theorem, which shows that the result of any individual measurement of spin was not fixed (pre-determined) independently of the choice of measurements. Conway and Kochen describe new bits of information coming into existence in the universe, and we agree that information is the key to understanding both EPR entanglement experiments and human free will.,,, ,,, it is essential to solutions of the 'problem of measurement' to recognize that the "cut" between the quantum world and the classical world is the moment when new information enters the universe irreversibly.,,, https://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/free_will_theorem.html
bornagain77
September 10, 2022
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EDTA, Yes, information is highly dependent on context and nearly always conveyed at some level of abstraction: The boy hit the ball is an abstraction of "the 12 year old boy located at (address) hit a baseball with an aluminum bat." Also, the resulting 1 in n choices are different between "the boy hit the ball" and "the ball hit the boy." The amount of information conveyed by a string can be greater or less than the information conveyed by a different string. For example, 42, 101010, and forty two convey the identical information but use 2, 6, and 9 characters respectively. Thus there's not good correlation between string length and information. -QQuerius
September 9, 2022
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