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Natural vs. unnatural selection: Consider the ceaseless yap of the lap dog and be warned

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In “Actually, the goal posts were just pulled up. Too much trouble to move…”, I linked to Jonathan Well’s comment on subtle attempts to change just what Darwinian evolution means, to avoid disconfirmation of any particular model. You know, first it’s natural selection only, then, lo and behold, group selection is allowed, then Lamarckism (inheritance of acquired characteristics), then gene swapping …

First junk DNA proved Darwin was right, then when it turned out not to be junk, you can be pretty sure, it will still prove Darwin was right. Darwinism has become a catch-all for a tired, worn-out theory, hysterically popular in the academic culture, with no real definition or foundation for why.

Anyway, Mike Flannery, author of Alfred Russel Wallace’s Theory of Intelligent Evolution, comments on my notes on the obviously unsupportable claim that artificial selection (= animal breeding) supports Darwinian evolution (natural selection acting on random mutation):

Anyone can breed a weird dog (I mean, assuming they have basic knowledge of canines).

But nature has a funnel.

There are only certain ways that dogs can really live in the wild.

For example, a greyhound can run faster than a wolf, because he doesn’t have heavy jaws – but what happens when he catches up with the prey?

Someone throws him a bag of Science Diet for Adult Working Dogs, right?

Human interventions almost always assume that we protect the life form from the normal routine of nature – otherwise there would be no reason to bother.

And nature is limited to certain routines. A wild animal that cannot feed itself will die.

But a Bassett Hound can live as long as its owner is willing to pay for advanced veterinary medicine, necessitated in part by the odd way the creature was bred.

If all the dogs in the world ran away, 50 years later, you would likely see only nature’s usual wolfhound type.

Anyway, Flannery comments,

Jonathan revealingly quotes Mirsky in his excellent piece: “As Darwin did before him, Coyne noted that the development of new breeds through artificial selection is a good model for the evolution of new species by natural selection.”

The model wasn’t good when Darwin presented it and it cannot be improved in Coyne’s re-telling. From the very beginning (even in the famous Ternate Letter of 1858), Alfred Russel Wallace pointed out, “in the domesticated animal all variations have an equal chance of continuance; and those which would decidedly render a wild animal unable to compete with its fellows and continue its existence are no disadvantage whatever in a state of domesticity. Our quickly fattening pigs, short-legged sheep, pouter pigeons, and poodle dogs could never have come into existence in a state of nature, because the very first step towards such inferior forms would have led to the rapid extinction of the race; still less could they now exist in competition with their wild allies. The great speed but slight endurance of the race horse, the unwieldy strength of the ploughman’s team, would both be useless in a state of nature.

If turned wild on the pampas, such animals would probably soon become extinct, or under favourable circumstances might each lose those extreme qualities which would never be called into action, and in a few generations would revert to a common type, which must be that in which the various powers and faculties are so proportioned to each other as to be best adapted to procure food and secure safety,–that in which by the full exercise of every part of his organization the animal can alone continue to live. Domestic varieties, when turned wild, must return to something near the type of the original wild stock, or become altogether extinct.” Wallace never would agree with Darwin on this point and it would lead to other more significant disagreements later.

Besides, AT BEST all domestic breeding examples merely established one thing: GUIDED and DIRECTED variation.

Maybe I am a Wallacist?

Comments
If we’re going to assume that, for all practical purposes, natural selection and artificial selection are operationally the same… then how do we know natural selection is natural selection? Is there any biology text or authority that has ever suggested that evolution will result in perfect forms? I cannot imagine any modern biologist ascribing to such a bizarre view.Learned Hand
June 21, 2009
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@10 and others. The variation in dog breeds is due to a combination of phenotype selection (normal variation in physical characteristics of animals) and also Darwinian mutation (degrading mutations). I actually think dog breeds are an excellent example of Darwinian evolution. Of course it is directed by breeders - but pay attention to the mechanism by which diversity is accomplished! Every single breed has its own share of heritable illness, genetic deficiencies or predispositions. Collies, Shelties, and their crosses easily succumb to Avermectin toxicity, whereas other breeds are alright with it - these two breeds are missing an enzyme or something to deal with the drug. St. Bernards have hyperthyroidism. Boxers cannot handle Acepromazine (a sedative drug) as it often triggers hypotension+bradycardia+syncope in this breed. Cavalier King Charles Spaniels will be affected by mitral valve disease given a long enough life. Why is it that every breed has a particular weakness or predisposition? Because they're missing certain elements in their body needed to deal with that circumstance. You find me a breed without a single predisposition or heritable illness and then we'll talk about the wonders of Darwinian evolution! Cause all it appears to be doing is destroying existing systems.Avonwatches
June 21, 2009
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herb, An interesting thought, and absolutely I think there are some interesting ideas that pop up if we argue that living organisms in general "select" things. My view of it was on a larger level - where a designer uses evolution towards certain goals and final causes, depending on the level we're considering. As you said, evolution without natural selection (or with a kind of "selection" that's metaphysically very distinct from what Darwin envisioned) is possible. And it's still evolution - just not the evolution Darwin described. Maybe closer to Wallace's view.nullasalus
June 21, 2009
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...subtle attempts to change just what Darwinian evolution means...group selection is allowed, then Lamarckism (inheritance of acquired characteristics), then gene swapping...
Darwin accepted and promoted the first two in this list. He of course had no way of knowing about the third. May I humbly suggest that you acquaint yourself with what "Darwinian evolution" means before you attempt to criticize it?Tajimas D
June 21, 2009
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nullasalus:
The existence of unguided selection is at best an unverifiable proposition, an assumption.
That's a very interesting point, and one which I've thought about a bit. Take the example of a bee which pollinates a certain type of flower. That bee is performing artificial selection just as surely as the humans who bred the greyhound. And reciprocally, the plant which produced the flower is performing artificial selection on the bee population as well. Hence there really is no "natural" selection, in spite of what evolutionists say. And of course no natural selection => no Darwinism.herb
June 21, 2009
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Of course I should have said (comment #10) the "neo-Darwinist" mechanism, since Darwin himself didn't know about mutations.Granville Sewell
June 21, 2009
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A point I would bring up is this: If we're going to assume that, for all practical purposes, natural selection and artificial selection are operationally the same... then how do we know natural selection is natural selection? We know artificial (guided) selection exists - that much is indisputable. The existence of unguided selection is at best an unverifiable proposition, an assumption. But since it's an assumption which can't be verified - and since, as we hear, for all practical purposes artificial selection is the same as natural selection anyway - we can simply consider all we see in nature to be artificial selection. Right?nullasalus
June 21, 2009
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No one has even mentioned the most important difference between dog breeding and Darwin's mechanism. Breeders don't rely on mutations, ie, accidents, they select traits already present in the gene pool.Granville Sewell
June 21, 2009
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Another fallacy that I've seen a few times regarding dog breeding, a fallacy which Dawkins scathingly employed in a review of Behe's latest book, is that dog breeding shows that there is all sorts of malleability and that it is easy to transform different breeds into each other, and that therefore this establishes the existence of unlimited evolutionary potential. One time I asked an unguided evolutionist, "Yes it is certainly possible to start with Arctic Wolves and, via breeding, get to Chihuahuas, but are you saying that I could start with nothing but Chihuahuas and eventually obtain Arctic Wolves?" The point being that by the time you reach the Chihuahua, you've thrown out just about all of the potential variability inherent in the genome of the Arctic Wolf. The Chihuahua has been bred so intensely, that the full Arctic Wolf genetic complement just isn't there anymore, and you aren't going to get it back by just crossing Chihuahuas. However, the answer of the unguided evolutionist was, "You're an idiot."Matteo
June 21, 2009
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Extrapolating from artificial selection to natural selection by saying "if men can do this in a few centuries, just think what nature can do in millions of years!" has always been wholly invalid. Intelligent causation is tremendously more potent than unguided causation. For example, a human being can get a randomized pack of playing cards into suit and number order in a couple of minutes. It can be easily shown via elementary probability calculation that the age of the universe would be insufficient for a blind card shuffling machine to be expected to get the deck into that order, even at one shuffle per second. So the general principle that unguided nature has powers greater than intelligent causation simply does not hold as a general principle.Matteo
June 21, 2009
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@ 6 You've obviously never heard of hare coursing. Greyhounds are perfectly capable of taking down prey (and thus surviving in the wild despite what Michael Flannery thinks). See here.mivart
June 21, 2009
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For example, a greyhound can run faster than a wolf, because he doesn’t have heavy jaws - but what happens when he catches up with the prey? Someone throws him a bag of Science Diet for Adult Working Dogs, right?
Unless it has that myostatin mutation like Wendy the Whippet LOL. But seriously, those greyhounds look so dainty, I wouldn't count on one being able to dispatch anything larger than a fieldmouse.herb
June 21, 2009
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jlid, I don't see how the illustration supports the conclusion. Domesticated organisms are selected for their commercial viability, not their viability in the wild. Such specialized organisms would probably not fare well under naturally selective pressures in the wild. I don't see how that tells us anything other than that traits derived from one set of selective pressures (value to humans) are inefficient under a different set of pressures (natural selection in the wild). The argument you're trying to make would be supported by an observation that natural selection punishes all diversity. All this illustration shows is that organisms shaped by one selective environment fare poorly when the selective criteria change drastically and suddenly. I don't think the observation is logically connected to your conclusions. Similarly, Denyse, you argue that artificial selection is inherently different from natural selection. The only difference I see, though, is the substitution of one set of selective criteria for another. In both circumstances, inheritable traits are subjected to selective pressures, resulting in a change in allele frequencies in successive generations. The results of one set of selective criteria may be poorly adapted for the other set: a chihuahua is no better adapted for the veldt than a lion is for the sitting room. Neither will be permitted to reproduce under the governing set of selection pressures. I don't see, however, the substantive distinguishing factors you seem to assume exists between the two sets.Learned Hand
June 21, 2009
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Nakashima, thanks for the quote suggestion. Seems to work better at WordPress. Don't know if it works at Blogger, will try, but Blogger always just indents everything you want with block quote. Learned Hand, I will corrrect the tansposition error you mentioned. The point is that merely producing exotic variations and protecting them is not duplicating natural selection, which does not deal in exotic, protected variations, but only in traits adapted to survival in a given environment without any protection. That usually means that only a few forms of a given species would really live. Producing hundreds of forms and then protecting them from natural outcomes does not produce evidence of what occurs in nature.O'Leary
June 21, 2009
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Learned Hand, The illustration demonstrates that natural selection seems to act as a stabilizing force in nature. Instead of leading to a variety of organisms, it instead restricts variety. All of the different variations (artificially introduced) get snuffed out, not furthered. In other words, when humans introduce changes to a species, natural selection quickly cancels those changes out; why should we expect naturally occurring changes to be any different?jlid
June 21, 2009
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Darwinian evolution (random mutation acting on natural selection) I think that you transposed those terms. More substantively, I don't follow the logic behind this argument. Granting that organisms selected for commercial viability would be poorly adapted to life in the wild, they still reflect the transformative power of gradual shifts in allele frequency over time. I don't see any connection between the observation that domesticated specimens would die out in the wild or be forced to revert to a better adapted state, and the conclusion that you seem to be implying.Learned Hand
June 21, 2009
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Mrs. O'Leary, Is it possible to clarify which words are Wells' and which words are yours? I remember in another post that you said it was hard to maintain proper indents. Here you seem to be quoting two large blocks of Wells' text, but in a different order than in his original text. Here on UD, I always try to use the <cite> tag instead of blockquote, q, or i.Nakashima
June 21, 2009
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