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Evolution News: In His New Book, Denton Shows How Science Leads the Charge to Theism

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Neil Thomas writes:

William Paley once quipped that observation of the complexity of the human eye (which, it will be recalled, was wont to give Darwin uncomfortable doubts about the efficacy of natural selection) supplied an assured “cure for atheism.” Extending Paley’s quip, I would add that if the eye doesn’t do it for you, the brain with its quadrillions of synchronized electro-chemical operations almost certainly will. There seems to be little exaggeration in claiming that cytology, the microscopic study of cells enabled by the ultra-high magnifications of the electron microscope, has led to a wholly unexpected revival of the fortunes of Paley’s once derided natural theology.

Recent advances in biological science, a subject formerly proclaimed to be corrosive of metaphysical beliefs1, have somewhat unexpectedly become a stimulus to the emergence of new advances which endorse many of the older observations of natural theology. As astronomer Paul Davies remarked some four decades ago, “It may seem bizarre, but in my opinion science offers a surer path to God than religion.”2 Supporting this contention — that science itself leads the charge toward a fresh theistic turn — Michael Denton makes the firm observation in his new book, The Miracle of Man: The Fine Tuning of Nature for Human Existence, that recent studies of the way the terrestrial environment appears to be fine-tuned for humankind are “not based on the Judeo-Christian scriptures or classical philosophy but on evidence derived from advances in our scientific understanding of nature.” (p. 208)

Gifts from the Gods

Providing chapter and verse for his views, in convincing detail with an enviably multi-disciplinary command, Denton elaborates on ways in which the properties of light, carbon, water, and metals contribute to the fitness of nature for humankind, providing substantial circumstantial evidence that the world we inhabit was “pre-adapted” for our use. 

The notion that we are simply an “epiphenomenon” of mindless processes cast adrift in a cosmos configured by pure chance has in the last half century or so been challenged by a new scientific landscape, Denton argues — with some understatement. For as Michael Behe comments in his advance praise of Denton’s work, the philosopher Bertrand Russell’s notorious contention that “Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving” has turned out to be “the most spectacularly wrong-headed pronouncement of the 20th century.”

Cosmologists make no bones about the fact they can see no logical pathway to how we all came to be here on this planet. The cosmological constants which create conditions favorable to life are on any statistical reckoning improbable to an extreme, even prohibitive degree. The same goes for the genesis and proliferation of life forms: the whole phenomenon remains stubbornly unamenable to rational decipherment.

Evolution News
Comments
SA, Newton was a theist, though of clearly unitarian sentiments. KFkairosfocus
May 25, 2022
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KF Good research and commentary, thank you.
When it met Newtonian mechanics (and more) during the Enlightenment, the combination spawned “deism”, the idea that God set the initial conditions of the universe and then left it to play out on its own (model 11). Deism is a dualism because it assumes God can leave the world behind and thus is neither “in” it as in panentheism nor identical with it as in pantheism.
Yes, Newton is considered a "proto-deist" or a "non-theist" at least. This was a common movement among high-church Anglicans at the time. William Blake considered Newton a deist - a believer in "true, original, monotheistic religion first discovered in ancient times by natural reason." So for that time, Deism was considered "natural religion" - as in "natural theology". This is the God that is knowable through reason alone. It disregards all revelation. It's the God of the philosophers. Others along with Newton were Voltaire, Rousseau, Gibbon, and Hume
Blake describes the nature of deistic religion: Deism, is the Worship of the God of this World by the means of what you call natural Religion and Natural Philosophy, and of Natural Morality or Self-Righteousness, the Selfish Virtues of the Natural Heart. This was the Religion of the Pharisees who murder’d Jesus. Deism is the same ends in the same. (See The Complete Writings, p. 682.)
Matthew Tindal was another of the prominent Deists. The title of his book suggests its central argument, that true Christianity consists solely of the natural religion known to all men by their natural reason from the beginning of the world, that the Gospels only republished the religion of nature, and that all the rest of Christianity during the previous fifteen hundred years, was a packet of superstitions foisted onto believers by priests serving their own self interest. Newton’s published works contain the argument from design for the existence of God, an argument so similar to a thousand other arguments common in his age that commentators have assumed his orthodoxy.
So, there's an anti-Christian element to it, but at the same time, Deists used the philosophical argument from design (and others from causality and necessary being, etc - basically Aristotle's arguments). Meyer says that not only is deism eliminated by science, but pantheism is eliminated because a creator "within the cosmos" could not explain the origin of laws of nature and physics. He says the same about a supposed alien designer of first life. This is problematic for two reasons: First, Meyer assumes the designer of first life is the same as the designer of the universe. He needs to show the science that supports that. Supposedly, he has scientific evidence that the designer is monotheistic. I see no scientific literature supporting him on that. Secondly, it's easy enough for a pantheist to say that all the natural laws are "manifestations of the divine". So, the pantheistic god is in the cosmos but is also the source of all of the cosmos. That could be argued against logically, but again - that's a philosophical debate that Meyer does not get into. He's just giving his philosophical opinion, saying that observed reality lines up better with theism than with deism, but to make that a scientific study he needs some data and none is given. He also needs to fully explain what he means by deism, giving all the varieties and then somehow refute all of them using science.Silver Asiatic
May 25, 2022
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Both, atheism and deism imply NO RELATION with God and that make them fellow travellers (overlapping on the conclusion ,even if they have different premises).Lieutenant Commander Data
May 25, 2022
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PPS, more, without endorsing all that is said:
Perfect being theology was birthed during the Hellenistic era from the fusing of the Jewish idea of a single God that acts in history (the theos in “perfect being theology”) with the Greek philosophical idea of perfect ultimacy (“perfect being”).[37] From the very start, there were conceptual tensions in the combination: how can the God who led us out of Egypt, who hears our prayers and who intervenes in the world as the Jews say (Cohen 1987: 44) also be immutable, impassible and a se as the Greeks say (e.g., Guthrie 1965: 26–39, 272–279; Guthrie 1981: 254–263)? This question is sometimes framed: how can “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” be the “God of the philosophers?” Even after perfect being theology had passed for centuries from Judaism to Christianity to Islam—with an important handoff in the midst by Anselm who amped up the Greek perfection by taking God to be that than which no greater can be conceived—the great medieval theologians in all three faiths were still hitting up against the tensions and finding ways to tamp them down. For instance, on the issue of anthropomorphic descriptions of God in the Bible and the Quran, both Maimonides and Aquinas read them as negations and said that God “is not a body” (Dorff 2013: 113; Kennedy 2013: 158) and both Ibn Rushd (Averroes) and al-Ghazali parted with “theologians who took all these descriptions literally” because “beings that have bodily form…have characteristics incompatible with a perfect being” (Hasan 2013: 142). The tensions continued into the modern era and are still felt in our time. Perhaps as early as 1644, perfect being theology split into two camps over them (see Davies 2004: chapter 1, and Page 2019). Both camps take God to be absolutely perfect, but disagree over what it takes to be perfect: “classical theists” deny or weaken God’s personhood to save the Greek perfections such as impassibility, immutability and simplicity, while “theistic personalists” (a species of “neoclassical theists”) conversely deny or weaken the Greek perfections to save God’s personhood. “Open theists” (model 9 in this entry), for example, are theistic personalists: they call for new readings of, e.g., omnipotence and omniscience and drop immutability and impassibility to comport with God’s desire “to be in an ongoing, dynamic relationship with us” (Basinger 2013: 264–268, see also, e.g., Clark 1992; Pinnock et al. 1994; Sanders 1998).[38] Other neoclassical theists aim merely to resolve inconsistencies among the perfections, as in Nagasawa’s Maximal God Theism (2008, 2017; model 10). In addition to its old challenges, perfect being theology also hit new ones in the modern era from advances in science. When it met Newtonian mechanics (and more) during the Enlightenment, the combination spawned “deism”, the idea that God set the initial conditions of the universe and then left it to play out on its own (model 11). Deism is a dualism because it assumes God can leave the world behind and thus is neither “in” it as in panentheism nor identical with it as in pantheism. Picture all these theistic dualisms as close to Dvaita Vedanta’s image of the eternal builder building a house out of something different from itself and dwelling in it as it pleases, but make the house not necessarily eternal (it may have had a start and may end), and for classical theism, give the builder all the perfections; for neoclassical theisms, give it a few less and perhaps have it throw better parties in the house; and for deism, have the builder abandon the house altogether once it is built and leave it to its own devices, like an “absentee landlord” (Mitchell 2008: 169). On the other end of the spectrum from these varieties of theistic dualism, we find pantheism, the species of monism that takes the One to be God (a general model, 13). All monisms face a problem of unity: how are the many things in the world integrated enough to call them One? But pantheisms face an additional problem of divinity: even if all is truly One, does the One have what it takes to be God? Here we will focus on two contemporary pantheisms, both in Buckareff & Nagasawa (2016) . . . . These are, then, several models of God, sorted mainly by how they see the relationship between God and the world. Is the God that is modeled in each of these ways metaphysically, axiologically and soteriologically ultimate, in Schellenberg’s terms? Interestingly, the answers differ dramatically for each model. To offer just two examples, on classical theism we get a yes, yes, yes: God as single-handed origin of the universe, making everything out of nothing, is metaphysically the fundamental fact; and, in Anselm’s hands, God as the greatest not only actual but also possible being in every category of being, is as axiologically ultimate as anything can be; and in Aquinas’ idea, God as our very telos, the point of our being, is soteriologically ultimate as well. In contrast, God on Alexander’s view gets a no, maybe, maybe. Alexander’s deity is not metaphysically the most fundamental fact in any of the ways collected in the models seen so far: it is neither the efficient cause of the universe (as in the dualisms), nor its material cause (as in the pantheisms and some panentheisms) nor its final cause (as in Bishop and Perszyk).[43] Alexander also cannot say if deity will be axiologically or soteriologically ultimate when it arrives, since deity is by definition unknown for him. Thus, God as modeled in some ways is ultimate and in others is not.
Notice, definition of Deism and contrast with pantheism etc.kairosfocus
May 25, 2022
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PS, I take up the recently added SEP article on
God and Other Ultimates First published Fri Dec 17, 2021 What it takes to be ultimate is to be the most fundamentally real, valuable or fulfilling among all that there is or could be. Historically, philosophy of religion in the West has taken God to be ultimate. Over the past century, the field has become increasingly aware that ultimacy is grasped under different concepts in the world’s religions, philosophies and quasi-religious philosophies—so not only as “God” but also as, e.g., “Brahman”, “the Dao”, and more. Moreover, people have thought to conceptualize each of these ultimates in numerous ways across cultures and times, so there are many models of Brahman, many models of God, many models of the Dao, and more; perhaps there is even a model of what is ultimate for each person who has thought hard about it. This entry presents a framework for understanding this vast landscape of models of God and other ultimates and then surveys some of its major sights. Familiarity with this landscape can clarify the long journey to deciding whether there is anything ultimate, among other benefits.
You will recall, that for years I engaged a debate here on the beginningless causal-temporal past claim. Across three years of long and often contentious exchanges, I drew out that once we reckon with the reality of transfinite and infinitesimal quantities on a broader number line, we can readily see that explicit or implicit traverse of the transfinite in finite stages is an infeasible supertask. I can add to this that the use of hyperreals h and H finds a foreshadowing in the implicit extension of the number line to include points of +/- infinity and infinitesimals such as dx. Where, h is smaller than any 1/n for any n we can actually count to. Correspondingly, H = 1/h, is larger than any such n. Notice the tendency to carry out definite integration with infinities as range markers. That is these are important concepts for logic of structure and quantity thence wider logic of being. Where, I showed on published record how any possible world, from von Neumann's construction and considerations of distinct identity etc, will have in its fabric N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc, which gives core Mathematics its absolutely universal power. Sorry to desperately compress three years of exchanges, but this is a required stage to address logic of being and reality root issues as came up in the exchanges above. Those inclined to brush aside should at least recognise that there are fairly serious and extensive considerations behind what they do not wish to take up in a step by step assessment on comparative difficulties. We are therefore seeing elimination of two branches of this form of the Agrippa style trilemma: there was no beginningless quasi physical past (even, for the case of a quantum foam multiverse by fluctuations model) and there is no circular retrocausation or other ways of trying to draw a world out of utter non-being, the true nothingness. Were there ever such, it would forever obtain, as Craig et al are clipped on here in an evisceration of Dawkins. Similarly, circular retrocausation is an attempt to draw a world out of a not yet existent hat. Going beyond, no other form of reality from non being is viable. Non being has no causal power and is inert, indeed it is only a concept, as a world is, utter non-being never was the case. And yes, eternity lurks here, we have reason to believe there is an order of being beyond our causal temporal thermodynamic domain, CTThD. That leaves only, finitely remote, necessary being on the table as serious candidate root from which reality as a whole springs, World Zero, W0. The logic of being issue then is to characterise W0. That requires another brief backgrounder, using possible worlds [PW] speak to clarify options on being and non being. Pardon, enough has come up that a stepwise follow the breadcrumbs process is indicated. Many around UD do not know these were hammered out again and again in past discussions across altogether over a decade. A PW is a sufficiently complete description by listing propositions, of a way this or another world is, was, could be, could have been or the like. This allows us to form concepts of possible vs impossible being. Something that is possible of being exists or would exist in at least one PW. By contrast, what is impossible of being cannot exist in any PW, as the core characteristics that define its distinct identity are mutually contradictory so cannot be coherently effected. The Euclidean space square circle is a classic. Note, this implies that in addition to the abstract quantities, there are abstract spaces in any world, the Euclidean plane can be viewed anachronistically but analytically soundly as the complex plane with coordinates etc suppressed, a space for 2-d vectors. The ijk scheme [and lurking Quaternions, God help us] allows 3-d etc. Yes, abstracta constrain and express being and can be rightly seen as beings too. There is no distinct possible world without twoness, thus the number 2. There is but one empty set which pervades all worlds as part of the fabric of reality. These are pump priming concepts that allow us to see that certain things in logic of being are not arbitrary figments of imagination. And particularly, the strawman caricature imagination of priestcraft used to impose cultural domination etc. The Frankfurt School, critical theory narrative of cancelling and dismissing fails. Where, obviously, CRT fans, I 'ent no oppressive heterosexual white man, nor am I the caricatured derided Uncle Tom. Who, was a model of patient Christian endurance under oppression he had no power to overturn. Going further, we see of possible beings, contingent and necessary beings, as 2 and {} exemplify. From {} --> 0 we derive or rather clarify N, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc. See von Neumann and onward extensions that recognise that from integers onward we are dealing with vectors, things with size and direction. Yes, - 18.65 is not a mere fiction as we can see from the difference between 10 miles northwards and 10 miles southward. Yes, all of these have come up in debates and are part of bush clearing that may make the odd jumping tommy goffe crawl out and show its neurotoxin-loaded fangs. A contingent being would be present in at least one PW but not in all. Ponder how a fire is a possibility until ignited and sustained and how it can go out. Yes, this means, contingent beings [CB's] are causally dependent and constrained. Fire is a classic example, as I recall from my Copi on Logic. (Which, we would all benefit from reading.) By contrast, consider a being present in every possible world, i.e. a necessary being, NB. Such is not causally dependent on external, enabling causal factors so in W, present but in utterly near neighbour W' not present as a causal enabling factor is in "off" state. Call this the light switch model and connexions to digital logic and computers etc will make possibility spaces clear. NBs, then have an obvious interpretation, they are part of the required fabric or framework for a world from W0 on up to be actualised. (Our education systems -- for want of ruder, apter terms -- have many gaps and logic of being is one of them. But we can make up a modified 2 x 2 array, row 1 possible of being, row 2 impossible of being. Col 1 contingent, col 2 non contingent or necessary. Of course in row 2 we need not bother with the partition between columns. This is not my thread, I cannot put up the chart I have used for some years.) We can next ponder candidate beings. For example a euclidean space square circle is a failed candidate. A fire is a candidate that once ignited, succeeds. God, is a serious candidate necessary being, by contrast with a fire [contingent] or a flying spaghetti monster [either contingent or impossible as incoherent as a living entity]. Perhaps, the most serious such candidate. Such a candidate is proposed as part of the fabric or framework that can enable any PW to be. Such, then, will either
CASE 1: fail to be serious [not plausible for God] or else CASE 2: is impossible of being as a euclidean square circle is, or else CASE 3: succeeds and is present in every PW including ours 9see math entities above). ____________________________ CASE 1 is not plausible, there is no serious argument that succeeds in showing CASE 2, we are left with CASE 3. COR A: Those who object to CASE 3, need to show cause that CASE 1 obtains ______ or that CASE 2 obtains _______ . I freely say, there are no good arguments for CASE 1 or CASE 2, especially after Plantinga's free will defense shattered the deductive/logical form problem of evil 50 years ago. COR B: God is the necessary being W0, root of reality. COR C: Strictly, there is but one reality, the order or domain that embraces all PW's including ours and any others that are actualised in some sense, including computer sims etc. COR D: In this sense, PW's are model or actualised sub cosmi within reality, including at least W0 as the eternal domain from which other worlds come about or are contemplated. COR E: PW speak with logic of being is a fruitful framework to clarify our understanding of reality and possibility. COR F: Mathematical, abstract logic model worlds are PWs and where they contain NBs these then extend across all PWs, giving core math its universal power. COR G: Where such a model is close enough to take up an accurate or reliable mimic of our world, it gives power to Physics, Chemistry, Engineering and Computer Science, etc. (So, these considerations clarify a lot of things in disciplines of study we prize.)
What remains is to characterise God on logic of being understood i/l/o our own selves in our world. Here, we factor in that we are morally governed creatures (as has been pointed out) and need to bridge the is-ought gap, which, post Hume can only be done in the reality root. Likewise, post Euthyphro, it must not be arbitrary or an independent domain. The solution to beat is generic [= God of the Philosophers] ethical [mono]theism. That is, per worldview level inference to best explanation on comparative difficulties:
COR H: W0 is the reality root, i.e. the inherently good and utterly wise creator God; a necessary and maximally great being. One, worthy of our honour and loyalty, and of the responsible, rational, freely given service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature.
COR H identifies W0 as God, and implies self aware consciousness, volition and action -- personhood as opposed to aloofness which does not fit with love root of goodness. Repeat, inherent goodness pivots on love and aloofness -- an artifact of an age that sought to tame our passions -- is not consistent with love. Deism is inherently flawed. We can also note the holistic, microcosm, facets principle, that each core attribute of God draws on the others and contributes to them to maximally compossible degree. This is part of what maximal greatness of his being entails. We already have a kernel in hand, one that can be explored through idea of God philosophical theology and systematic theology. Those seeking details are directed thereto, with the caution, seek solid sources. There have always been many misconceptions and outright confusions on such topics. Backgrounder. KFkairosfocus
May 25, 2022
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SA, that boils down to, a neo-deism that is sufficiently present among Wikipedians or the like -- so, popular level radical secularism -- that it survives Wikipedia's moderation process; as opposed to having sufficient presence to make it into more formal scholarship. (We now need to amend, avoid Wikipedia, to: critically monitor it as reflecting trends and movements to be considered in education and street level communication.) However, the concept of personality as part of the key attributes of God is NOT owned by such. It is an ancient Philosophical and Systematic Theological concept anchored on sufficient history that the standard sense is objectively well warranted and the redefinition -- yes that is what it is -- being offered then comes across as at least quite ill-informed. Aloofness of God as asserted [and as is in my view probably incoherent: love is the pivot of goodness] is not absence of self-aware consciousness or volition involved in being inherently good or use of rational freedom through utter wisdom, thus design and implementing of a world with a physics etc. (This draws out the tendency of rejecting attributes of God as historically understood to be incoherent, as through the holistic-microcosm-facets principle, each key divine attribute traceable to logic of being and greatest possible being i/l/o necessary, reality root being involves and points to the others, so denial of one is incoherent or tantamount to denial of all.) Allusions to Eastern views simply draw out that the shift has in it elements of pantheistic or panentheistic influences. Pantheism etc are not ethical [mono]theism, so likely we are seeing worldviews syncretism which does tend to create an incongruous, incomplete picture, in effect in an ultra modern radically relativistic age, we should not be surprised to see buffet style approaches to thinking that are not particularly sensitive to the significance of coherence. Going forward, we have yet another point of cultural trend to deal with in trying to think and communicate responsibly and rationally. KFkairosfocus
May 25, 2022
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This page gives an overview: Models of God https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/god-ultimates/ The point I walk away with is that there are several non-theistic views of God. Just calling them all deist does not seem accurate enough.
... are there perhaps any non-theistic (non-God) models of what is ultimate ...? Specifically (here is model 3), such classical Advaitans hold that since reality is one and the cosmos is many, the cosmos cannot be real. It looks as if there is a cosmos filled with many things, but the cosmos is merely an appearance (maya), and taking it to be reality is like taking a rope at dusk to be a snake (Shankara’s famous metaphor, see, e.g., Tapasyananda 1990: 34). With the cosmos out of the picture, the theocosm is just the “theo” part; to use the metaphor above, the ultimate is all dweller, no house. That move makes the terms “Brahman” and “God” interchangeable, and on it, God-Brahman is generally read as impersonal ... On any of these readings of nonbeing, it is clear why the Dao is taken to be impersonal: the Dao is not only not anthropomorphic; it is not even thingmorphic. It is also clear why it is taken to be ineffable: it is not just because its being is beyond us; it is also because it is not a being at all, and most uses of words (to talk like Zhuangzi) thing it. So we find Daoist texts using the tricks of the ineffability trade to talk about the Dao, including famously, e.g., a use of the via negativa in the opening line of the DDJ: “the way that can be spoken of is not the constant way…
Silver Asiatic
May 24, 2022
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KF
It seems we have now seen a survey that sees opinion that contrasts deism with God seen as personal, but that rather sounds like a misnomer.
This one definition of a 'personal god'.
A personal god, or personal goddess, is a deity who can be related to as a person,[1] instead of as an impersonal force, such as the Absolute, "the All", or the "Ground of Being". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_god
There are several varieties of Deism. Some of them accept a personal God, others do not.
In general, most deists view God as a personal god. This is illustrated by the 17th-century assertions of Lord Edward Herbert, universally regarded as the Father of English Deism, which stated that there is one Supreme God, and he ought to be worshipped.[29] However, deism is a general belief encompassing people with varying specific beliefs, and the notion of God as a personal god cannot be ascribed to all deists.
Notice the listing on that page:
Christian deism is a term applied both to Christians who incorporate deistic principles into their beliefs and to deists who follow the moral teachings of Jesus without believing in his divinity.[30] With regard to those who are essentially deists who follow the moral teachings of Jesus, these are a subset of classical deists. Consequently, they believe in a personal god, but they do not necessarily believe in a personal relationship with God. Classical deists who adhere to Herbert's common notion certainly believe in a personal god because those notions include the belief that God dispenses rewards and punishments both in this life and after it.[29] This is not something which would be done by an impersonal force. However, a personal relationship with God is not contemplated, since living a virtuous and pious life is seen as the primary means of worshiping God.[29] Humanist deists accept the core principles of deism but incorporate humanist beliefs into their faith.[31] Thus, humanistic deists believe in a personal god who created the universe. The key element that separates humanistic deists from other deists is the emphasis on the importance of human development over religious development and on the relationships among human beings over the relationships between humans and God.[31][32] Those who self-identify as humanistic deists may take an approach based upon what is found in classical deism and allow their worship of God to manifest itself primarily (or exclusively) in the manner in which they treat others. Other humanistic deists may prioritize their relationships with other human beings over their relationship with God, yet still maintain a personal relationship with the Supreme Being. Pandeists believe that in the process of creating the universe, God underwent a metamorphosis from a conscious and sentient being or force to an unconscious and unresponsive entity by becoming the universe.[33] Consequently, pandeists do not believe that a personal god currently exists. Polydeists reject the notion that one Supreme Being would have created the universe and then left it to its own devices which is a common belief shared by many deists. Rather, they conclude that several gods who are superhuman but not omnipotent each created parts of the universe.[34] Polydeists hold an affirmative belief that the gods who created the universe are completely uninvolved in the world and pose no threat and offer no hope to humanity.[35] Polydeists see living virtuous and pious lives as the primary components of worshiping God, firmly adhering to one of the common notions set forth by Herbert.[29] Thus, polydeists believe that there are several personal gods. Yet, they do not believe they can have a relationship with any of them. Scientific deists believe, based on an analysis utilizing the scientific method, that a personal god created the universe. This analysis finds no evidence of a purpose God may have had for creation of the universe or evidence that God attempted to communicate such purpose to humanity. It therefore concludes that there is no purpose to creation other than that which human beings choose to make for themselves.[36] Thus, scientific deists believe in a personal god, but generally do not believe in relationships between God and human beings, because they believe that there is no proof of a purpose for creation. Spiritual deism is a belief in the core principles of deism with an emphasis on spirituality including the connections between humans and each other, nature and God. Within spiritual deism, there is an absolute belief in a personal god as the creator of the universe along with the ability to build a spiritual relationship with God.[37] While Spiritual deism is nondogmatic, its followers generally believe that there can be no progress for mankind without a belief in a personal god.
Silver Asiatic
May 24, 2022
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PS, I now remember C S Lewis' observation that many imply embodiment, corporeality when they affirm or deny personhood.kairosfocus
May 24, 2022
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Relatd, there is always sloppiness when those who lack adequate depth pose themselves as having well founded (but in fact typically ill founded) views. In recent years, the new atheists were widely feted but those who were actually knowledgeable on matters philosophical etc often found them deeply wanting on many subjects they preened themselves on while pouring scorn on the despised other. Here is a classic, utterly revealing exchange on a world from "nothing." At about the same time we saw Dan Brown equally celebrated for his Da Vinci Code, even as his prefatory fact claims were in fact without substantial merit. Many other equally sadly telling cases can be pointed to. In the NT (for a theological case in point), we are outright warned that the unstable and ignorant will twist scripture to ruin, especially the points that are harder to understand. As for philosophy, suffice to observe Socrates' dialogues to see how many ill-formed opinions collapse into incoherence. When it comes to the novelty above, suffice to say that the notion that the concept that God as person (and there is a "fulness of time" providential reason why Greek is also a foundational language of scripture and theology, this being one of just two languages of our broader civilisation comfortable in philosophy, the other being german) is about his willingness to love and interact with us, his creatures, is with little substantial merit. As the dictionary cited and standard scholarly sources describe, deism as a philosophical movement understood God to be personal in the context of self awareness, volition, ability to communicate intent, act to design and effect a world, express moral views and laws, etc. It seems we have now seen a survey that sees opinion that contrasts deism with God seen as personal, but that rather sounds like a misnomer. If the unengaged clock winder view of God or the like is taken to mean want of that aspect of being, we are dealing with a pantheism or its kissing cousin. If instead it is meant to imply only aloofness, it is poorly chosen wording indeed. This is why I am still calling for provision of an authoritative source that defines or explains deism in the terms advanced above. And, to be clear, Meyer, reflects the general understanding of deism we find in the guild of scholarship. Perhaps, if a coherent case can be made out, we can say there is a neo-deism movement, but of such I can find but little substantial sign. KF .kairosfocus
May 24, 2022
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I think there are only two ways to get a worldview: You are taught a particular view from a young age or you acquire one through effort or absorption of certain ideas. Being taught from a young age means getting this worldview from someone who is trusted and who tells you that this worldview works, and has worked for a long time. Ethics are included, but are not based on a personal perception. You either accept or perhaps, later reject the whole package. Those who are young but have no one they consider a good teacher, either make the effort to collect examples of what they believe to be a good worldview. Or, they may find others with a worldview that appeals to them and they absorb the ethical aspects, but as long as they all seem to fit the worldview.relatd
May 24, 2022
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As Jordan Peterson said we think in naratives that are encapsulated in our worldview. Our worldview is built on ethical roots because any choice is based on our personal perception of value (I choose X because I perceive X being more "valuable" than Y,Z,Q) All worldviews have ethics(=choosing bigger value as perceived by a person) as pillar. This is a big problem for materialists because first comes ethics and THEN came any other concept that humanity can think. All thoughts as are produced by our mind come out with a small tag on which is written with very small letters : ethics but majority don't pay attention being too absorbed to their thoughts.Lieutenant Commander Data
May 24, 2022
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KF at 175, There is a lack of rigor or sloppiness in the worldviews and philosophical realm. For the person who spends a lot of time on the internet, the waters are muddied further by various people who have no apparent expertise spouting about various things as if they do. Should any of them 'gain enough followers,' that could mean a lot of people are taking incomplete information and/or information that is without listed sources, and believing it as is. Since there are those who dislike religion or belief in supernatural beings, why not create a flying spaghetti monster as a mockery of God? After all, the inviolate dividing line between life's origin and evolution means literally anything may have been involved in the origin of life for some who reject the 'natural origin' idea and want to assign the task to another sentient source. God is a serious candidate.relatd
May 24, 2022
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Relatd, the 30 buses inadvertently illustrated the problem. Whatever else, God is a serious candidate, world framework, necessary being; utterly unlike say a flying spaghetti monster, another inadvertent sign of lack of understanding. . So, either he is impossible of being or is actual. So, if we only have someone's estimate that God is improbable [on what grounds?] then they actually imply God is possible and so actual. In short the posed on expertise is sadly lacking in the worldviews and philosophical realm. Something that is notorious about the so called new atheists. KFkairosfocus
May 24, 2022
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CD, personal being is not about personal relationships save as an onward capability of persons. When you say to someone with appropriate background that God is not personal, that implies want of certain attributes of being, not that God does not relate to us. So, no, we have not made a subtle shift in terms, you have used an unusual, unnaounced shift in normal sense. KFkairosfocus
May 24, 2022
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Mildly Interesting Aside, many years ago when I first started mentioning ID in conversation (with select friends) I was warned by one to watch out that ID attracted a lot of strange ideas about powers in the universe (to paraphrase) since it didn't elaborate about particulars of the Designer. Seen a little of that over the years, but mostly it's been pretty conventional. Most of the eruptions of activity at UD are political, not necessarily directly odd Designer ideas. Andrewasauber
May 24, 2022
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Whoever the creator and whatever designation one wants to assign to him (choosing male description and not neutral such as “it”) there was much foresight. Denton’s book lays out the necessary foresight in terms of the physical universe and properties of chemistry that was necessary for complex life. Why such preparation and then a lack of interest in his creation? But there are other preparations that had to happen long after the creation of the universe and the Earth (in Earth I mean all the specifics of Earth’s star system and even its location in the galaxy in addition to the specific properties of our planet and the rest of the solar system) There had to be effective ecologies to promote life. Did they happen by chance or were they designed to happen to make life thrive. Without them the life on Earth would certainly be different. Does the fact that they appeared mean that the creator cared about his creation’s needs long after the initial creation. This does not mean there had to be intervention but that conditions changed some times dramatically and foresight was necessary. Does that describe any deism we recognize? What does it say about the creator? Aside: ID ignores ecologies as if they will just automatically spring up. But is that true? Ecologies will die if one or more members outperform or underperform other members. It’s one of the basic reasons Darwinian change has to be very minor. Else the new improved version will dominate and destroy the ecology and hence itself by leaving more numerous offspring. Also ecologies are not totally life forms. Ecologies obviously can include water and other molecules that help the ecology thrive.jerry
May 24, 2022
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Silver Asiatic Science cannot tell us that theism is correct and deism is incorrect.
Silver Asiatic but a deist could just say that...
Your logic is invalid. You can't try to prove that is impossible to know what colour has a ball inside a box by pushing yourself another competing coloured ball(that contradict exactly what you try to prove: "impossibility to know what colour has the ball") :lol:
That Meyer made this big mistake is disappointing to me.
That's because you use a bottom-up materialistic logic that prove your incompetence to talk about science.Lieutenant Commander Data
May 24, 2022
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KF
A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws [–> implies personality] but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation.
CD's post at 169 is relevant. Yes, personality is implied. I used the term "impersonal" describing deism and that was inaccurate. Although the term "person" has a theological origin
Person in Trinitarian-Christological Theology. Hebrew is without a term for our concept "person." There are instances in the Old Testament when the word p?nîm (face) practically corresponds to our understanding of person. The Greek word for face, ????????, likewise has the meaning of person (cf. 2 Cor 1.11). Postapostolic Christian teachers soon discovered that mere repetition of biblical phrases inadequately preserved the integrity of the Christian faith taking root in the Greco-Roman world. Because of the central place personality has in the mysteries of the Trinity and of Christ, there was need of a gradual clarification of the notion of person in Catholic theology. We shall trace this theological development of the notion of person in the mysteries of the Trinity and incarnation through four general stages. https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/person-theology
So we would say theism has a "personal" God, or an "interactive" God who cares about creation. The deist God may be worshipped (as Freemasons believed) but there's no interactivity. The deist God created the moral laws, but is not the source of forgiveness of sins and there may or may not be immortality of the soul. Some deists are basically just materialist-atheist who think there's a creating-force as the origin of the universe, but other than that, we're on our own. Other deists are basically Christian minus unpopular Christian doctrines.
Different Deists had different beliefs about the immortality of the soul, about the existence of Hell and damnation to punish the wicked, and the existence of Heaven to reward the virtuous. Anthony Collins,[30] Bolingbroke, Thomas Chubb, and Peter Annet were materialists and either denied or doubted the immortality of the soul.[31] Benjamin Franklin believed in reincarnation or resurrection. Lord Herbert of Cherbury and William Wollaston[32] held that souls exist, survive death, and in the afterlife are rewarded or punished by God for their behavior in life. Thomas Paine believed in the "probability" of the immortality of the soul.[33]
I don't know why I didn't look here sooner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
Instead, deists were forced to turn to arguments based on experience and nature. Under the influence of Newton, they turned to the argument from design as the principal argument for the existence of God
Some deists oppose the idea of "a personal God".
The 2001 American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) report estimated that between 1990 and 2001 the number of self-identifying Deists grew from 6,000 to 49,000, representing about 0.02% of the U.S. population at the time.[86] The 2008 ARIS survey found, based on their stated beliefs rather than their religious identification, that 70% of Americans believe in a personal God:[i] roughly 12% are atheists or agnostics, and 12% believe in "a deist or paganistic concept of the Divine as a higher power" rather than a personal God.
Probably in America "deist" means "Non-Christian believer in God". So those are people who are not atheist, not any Christian denomination, not any other religion, but just believe that God exists. The idea of "higher power" is something 12-Step recovery groups like AA use.Silver Asiatic
May 24, 2022
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KF/154 SA/in passim You both (perhaps unconsciously) made a subtle, but important shift from "personal God" to the "personality of God." The latter is merely a description gleaned from religious sources and varies greatly, even within the same religious traditions, e.g., the God of the Old Testament vs. the God of the New Testament, etc. To me a "personal God" is one with whom you can form a reciprocal relationship through worship, prayer, meditation, ritual, sacrifices, iconography etc. The more personalized one's God, the more likely that God will take on one's human characteristics, e.g., we build our gods in human form, an inverted imago dei. In Christian theology, God is made into an actual human. You can take this even further where in Mormon theology we are all potential gods--the ultimate form of anthropomorphism (or idolatry depending on your perspective). The point, however, is that a modern deist would find this type of speculation pointless. Although I I'm not aware of a "standard" work on modern deism, I will note that historically many deists held on to the notion of a personal God worthy of worship. That is even carried forward in some synopses such as Wiki or Encyl. Britannica, etc. today. There is also much confusion between deism, pantheism and panentheism. For example, many philosophers and historians refer to Spinoza as a pantheist, when to my mind he was clearly a deist. Even Einstein failed to understand the distinction when he said he believed in Spinoza's God, and then went on to describe that belief as pantheism. Or, then, maybe I'm the odd one out and completely mistaken--its happened before.....chuckdarwin
May 24, 2022
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Andrew at 167, I see the current media culture as defective. I ignore most of it. "Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die." Nothing new there.relatd
May 24, 2022
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"This is what happens when science – yes, science – becomes god." Relatd, Yes. I see your point, but I think science is only god to some, not all. The bigger issue is the self as god, enabled by current culture to self-obsess. Life is entertainment and consumption. What else is on Netflix? Andrewasauber
May 24, 2022
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Andrew at 165, 30 busses in London in 2009 carried the following message: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." Worrying about what? Punishment? For what? Nothing? This is what happens when science - yes, science - becomes god.relatd
May 24, 2022
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Relatd, The truly average person doesn't know who Dawkins is. But anyway, he is presented as an expert, but his appeal is limited, I think. He has said and written some really stupid stuff. Andrewasauber
May 24, 2022
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Andrew at 162, On the contrary, Dawkins is an expert and people tend to trust experts. Just like they trust their biology teacher who tells them our ancestors were apes or lemurs or fish. So immediately, without even understanding what philosophy is, what does the average person think? It must be true?relatd
May 24, 2022
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SA, I don't see a standard reference, are we dealing with a particular movement that has taken up the term, Deism and used it in its own way? KF PS,
de·ism (d???z??m, d??-) n. A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws [--> implies personality] but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation. [French déisme, from Latin deus, god; see dyeu- in Indo-European roots.] de?ist n. de·is?tic adj. de·is?ti·cal·ly adv. American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
kairosfocus
May 24, 2022
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"Richard Dawkins can tell us that living things only appear designed. That is based on biology." Relatd, His conclusion is not based on biology. It's based on philosophy. Andrewasauber
May 24, 2022
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SA at 155, What are you defending? Does Richard Dawkins separate biology from his beliefs? I hope you understand that most people will take ID and connect it to their beliefs. I'm not optimistic about your stopping the "ID doesn't say" mission you're on but thought I should point that out.relatd
May 24, 2022
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SA at 152, Will you forget about what biology can't tell us? Richard Dawkins can tell us that living things only appear designed. That is based on biology. Those who have never read any biology hear that and some think he's right. Do you understand the problem? So for the hundredth time: I think everybody here gets it.relatd
May 24, 2022
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LCD at 148, I suspect the reason for this is so that everything could have its "freedom" of action. The direct involvement of a deity implies that the deity cares about His creation.relatd
May 24, 2022
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