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Never Fall into the Trap of Trying to Argue for the Self Evident

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For two reasons, it is a mistake to argue for self-evident propositions.  First, it is impossible to argue for a self-evident proposition because the definition of a self-evident proposition is a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning.  Consider the challenge “I deny 1+1=2.  Prove it.”  Don’t fall for it.  If a person denies the glaring truth of such an analytic statement (i.e., 1+1 actually means 2), they are a hopeless fool. Nothing you can say to them will reduce the proposition to more basic terms. 

Secondly, arguing for self-evident truths is rhetorically self-defeating, because the very act of trying to argue for them concedes the proposition that they are “arguable.”  And they are, again by definition, not arguable. 

This is not an academic matter.  We live in a time when self-evident truths are being denied by foolish and/or evil people.  The following Facebook exchange that I had last weekend brought this home to me.  Note especially my “king has no clothes” response at the end.

Barry opens the debate:

A date that will live in infamy. NCAA gives women’s swimming championship to man posing as a woman.  One thing makes this Texan’s heart nearly burst with pride though. The girl in burnt orange giving him the stink eye on the podium.  BTW, for the nearly braindead and progressives (categories that overlap considerably), I have added handy notes to identify the man and the women.

“Jessica” responds:

Here’s an idea: you could make your point respectfully. If you really care about changing hearts and minds (indeed, this a powerful photo) maybe you could avoid insulting those who disagree or remain undecided on this controversial issue. Our public discourse deserves better.

Barry replies:

Jessica chides me for not being respectful to the people who argue that men pretending to be women should be allowed to crush real women in athletic competitions.  To this I say there is certainly a time for respectful dialogue among people acting in good faith concerning matters about which people of good will can differ. This is not one of them.

Anyone who says a man is a woman is a liar. Anyone who says they are “undecided” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Anyone who says there is a “controversy” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Liars are murderers of the truth and worthy of nothing but contempt.

You err when you suggest that my purpose is to change hearts and minds. It is not. Everyone’s hearts and minds are already of one accord in that everyone already knows a man can never be a woman and men should not be allowed to crush women in athletic competitions.

When the king walked down the street with no clothes on, no one needed to be convinced that he was naked.  No one needed a thoughtful augment designed to change their hearts and minds about the obvious facts that they already knew. They needed to be reminded that they were cowards and liars for denying the obvious truth.

No, I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I am holding evil people up for the contempt they richly deserve.

Comments
“There is no imposition of untruth. Transgender people are as much a reality as gay people and, like it or not, one with which we must come to terms.” Gays do not deny reality, men who think they are women do. The only reality regarding men who think they are women is just that, the reality is they are men who think they are women. That I don’t deny. Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2022
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Kairosfocus/59
Sev, gender has clearly been used to subvert sex and its regulation, leading to chaos.
I am not sure how gender is being used to subvert sex or what it even means to say sex is being subverted What I see is an attempt to explain that sex/gender is a much more complex phenomenon that the simple binary proposition that most people assume it to be.
Currently, we are in the equivalent position to looking for a nine sided hexagon, and as the OP shows, are imposing such absurdities through power brokers backing extremists.
I see it more as trying to get people to accept that there are both nonagons and hexagons and that recognition of one does not somehow undermine or invalidate the status of the other.
Here, girls who spent years of sacrifice and effort are suddenly put in position where they have to compete against men pretending or imagining that they are women, with consequences of loss of earned achievements and possibly scholarships etc.
That is a good point and it is for the sport's governing bodies to come up with a solution that will protect the girls who have sacrificed so much from unfair competition.
Onward, women’s athletics will be the loser, which has onward impact on attitude of women to physical activity and sports thus health.
It is clearly an issue which needs to addressed promptly.
The core issue, is imposition of untruth backed by state power that attacks sound conscience, which becomes oppressive. Such will not end well. KF
There is no imposition of untruth. Transgender people are as much a reality as gay people and, like it or not, one with which we must come to terms.Seversky
March 24, 2022
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Scamp “but I also fail to understand the visceral opposition that some appear to have towards them. “ It’s not personal but I do have a visceral opposition of having to participate in a lie like my daughter was forced to do. Fortunately I am self employed but my daughter has three children and under threat of losing her job all she could do was to bend over and say “more please” Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2022
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BlackRock and Vanguard are intertwined from what I understand. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/blackrock-vanguard-own-big-pharma-media/jerry
March 24, 2022
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Jerry “He controls the media and most of the corporate world and has done so almost anonymously. I have been pointing this out for weeks and everyone ignores it. Just as the world he controls keeps his power almost a secret.” Because of the business I am in I am very familiar with Fink and Blackrock and their control by proxy virtually every large cap SP 500 company. Vanguard is right behind them. Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2022
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"but I also fail to understand the visceral opposition that some appear to have towards them" Scamp, You are missing the point, deliberately. The point being- a man with lipstick, a wig, plastic surgery, and hormone injections is still a man. Andrewasauber
March 24, 2022
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One word to describe Larry Fink
Not sure how the word applies. It’s too ubiquitous to be meaningful. He controls the media and most of the corporate world and has done so almost anonymously. I have been pointing this out for weeks and everyone ignores it. Just as the world he controls keeps his power almost a secret.
I also fail to understand the visceral opposition that some appear to have towards them
They (them) are openly recruiting small children and trying to cancel those who disagree. They are called “Groomers.” Larry Fink’s power is helping.jerry
March 24, 2022
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Vivid: Thanks. I think we all would agree that is unacceptable behavior.
I agree. It is one thing to disagree with the societal acceptance of the transgendered and another to be a complete dick. I don’t pretend to understand the motivation and physiological stresses of the transgendered, as I believe is the case for most people commenting here, but I also fail to understand the visceral opposition that some appear to have towards them. They have never caused me harm, and the few that I know have been nothing but friendly, polite and generous.Scamp
March 24, 2022
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Jerry One word to describe Larry Fink “fascist” Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2022
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Scamp Thanks. I think we all would agree that is unacceptable behavior. Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2022
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KF: We are looking at the equivalent of here is a nine sided hexagon,
Is “nine sided hexagon” your new “trillions if examples”?Scamp
March 24, 2022
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Vivid: Do you know how the employee behaved inappropriately? Specifics would be nice to know. Thanks
Keep in mind that this is second hand. He apparently repeatedly talked to other staff making fun of the transgendered person. He continued to refuse to use her new legal name and repeatedly asked her about her Adam’s apple and repeatedly asked her if it was her time of the month. Things like that.Scamp
March 24, 2022
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forcing them to enable lies
Forcing others to conform. Behaviors have to change. In his own words. From the most powerful man in the world.. https://twitter.com/backtolife_2022/status/1506726529799176203 He controls 10 trillion dollars.jerry
March 24, 2022
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Sc, there can be no right to trample another's sound conscience, forcing them to enable lies. And a society that tries to build on untruth and forced conformity to it is becoming oppressive. All too soon, lies backed by power are deemed rights, and sound conscience that refuses to enable will be deemed hate or even treason, certainly to be censored, censured and soon enough persecuted, forfeiting freedom. We are looking at the equivalent of here is a nine sided hexagon, and don't you dare say otherwise. Or else, Mr Smith. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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Scamp “No, the employee opted to behave inappropriately in the work place. So much so that it made the transgendered persons work life miserable and seriously impacted her coworkers.” Do you know how the employee behaved inappropriately? Specifics would be nice to know. Thanks Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2022
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KF: Sc, the chaos is already quite visible in the snapshot in the OP.
That is hardly chaos. It is one aspect of transgendered rights that will have to be sorted out. I suspect it will result in a limitation on transgendered rights in that they won’t be able to participate in competitive woman’s sports where strength is a deciding factor. I can hardly wait to read your responses to transgendered couples adopting. It will make for entertaining reading.Scamp
March 24, 2022
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Sc, the chaos is already quite visible in the snapshot in the OP. The underlying issue, that untruth backed by power is a key element of injustice and attacks sound conscience, was already highlighted. The only real issue is what's the next click on the ratchet, and where it heads. KF PS, as in, plausibly https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/lfp-44a-what-is-2-2-mr-smith-1984-as-demonstration-of-how-first-duties-and-first-truths-are-inextricably-intertwined/kairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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KF: Sev, gender has clearly been used to subvert sex and its regulation, leading to chaos.
A little over the top, don’t you think. I don’t think sex has anything to fear.
Here, girls who spent years of sacrifice and effort are suddenly put in position where they have to compete against men pretending or imagining that they are women, with consequences of loss of earned achievements and possibly scholarships etc.
I can state with certainty that no Canadian girls have lost or ever will lose an athletic scholarship to a Canadian university because of any transgendered people.
The core issue, is imposition of untruth backed by state power that attacks sound conscience, which becomes oppressive. Such will not end well. KF
The move towards the acceptance of transgendered people will work itself out and society will be the better for it. As has been the case for the acceptance of homosexuality and same sex marriage.Scamp
March 24, 2022
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From the Boston Museum of Science. https://twitter.com/paulanoukas/status/1506729825318449157 The differences are more than size however. It’s in several different types of metabolism too. In the case of the swimmers, it would definitely be in the muscle metabolism.jerry
March 24, 2022
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Sev, gender has clearly been used to subvert sex and its regulation, leading to chaos. Currently, we are in the equivalent position to looking for a nine sided hexagon, and as the OP shows, are imposing such absurdities through power brokers backing extremists. Here, girls who spent years of sacrifice and effort are suddenly put in position where they have to compete against men pretending or imagining that they are women, with consequences of loss of earned achievements and possibly scholarships etc. Onward, women's athletics will be the loser, which has onward impact on attitude of women to physical activity and sports thus health. The core issue, is imposition of untruth backed by state power that attacks sound conscience, which becomes oppressive. Such will not end well. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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CD, did you notice that you went off on an ad hominem-ish tangent? (And no, I will not go into what "borking" Bork was about and whodunit, other than, slander.) Here is an actual sample from his book, something we would be well advised to heed:
The defining characteristics of modern liberalism are radical egalitarianism (the equality of outcomes rather than of opportunities) and radical individualism (the drastic reduction of limits to personal gratification [= license substituted for liberty]). These may seem an odd pair, for individualism means liberty and liberty produces inequality, while equality of outcomes means coercion and coercion destroys liberty. If they are to operate simultaneously, radical egalitarianism and radical individualism, where they would compete, must be kept apart, must operate in different areas of life. That is precisely what we see in today’s culture. Radical egalitarianism reigns in areas of life and society where superior achievement is possible and would be rewarded but for coercion towards a state of equality . . . Radical individualism is demanded when there is no danger that achievement will produce inequality and people wish to be unhindered in the pursuit of pleasure. This finds expression especially in the areas of sexuality and the popular arts . . . . Radical egalitarianism necessarily presses us towards collectivism because a powerful state is required to suppress the differences that freedom produces. That raises the sinister and seemingly paradoxical possibility that radical individualism is the handmaiden of collectivist tyranny.
There is much more, food for thought at minimum. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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Here is a guest post from The Official PLOS Blog which is my view of the sex/gender topic
A guest post from Talia Young, Ph.D., David H. Smith Conservation Postdoctoral Fellow, Princeton University & Director of Fishadelphia I recently saw another ecology talk refer to “gender ratios” of fish. I’d like to talk about the difference between sex and gender, and why ecologists should care about this topic. Definitions The words “sex” and “gender” are often used interchangeably in colloquial contexts, but they have different meanings that are relevant to our work in ecology. “Sex” refers to categories based on a combination of biological and physical characteristics, such as body organs, chromosomes, and hormones (WHO 2011, APA 2015). Sex is commonly assigned on the basis of external genitalia at birth and is often assumed to be only male or female, but scientists have identified at least five different groupings of human sex chromosomes, anatomy, and hormone physiology (Fausto-Sterling 1993). Other terms that relate to sex include intersex, freemartin, and hermaphrodite. (Note that hermaphrodite is a term currently used for animals but considered outdated and rude when used to describe humans; the preferred contemporary term for humans is intersex.) (“Sex” can also refer to activity among one or more individuals that may or may not result in sexual arousal and/or genetic recombination. I’m not addressing this meaning of the word in this piece.) “Gender” refers to identities and categories based on social or cultural characteristics (WHO 2011, APA 2015). Gender is both internal (gender identity, which is each person’s innate sense of their own gender), and external (gender expression, which is how each person expresses their gender identity). Woman, man, masculine, and feminine are all terms that can refer to gender. Transgender is a term used to describe a person whose gender identity is different from the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender is primarily a human and social term, and it is not usually relevant for non-human animals or plants. When we observe biological and physical aspects of our study organisms, those observations tell us about the sex of those individuals, not the gender. When we interact with other humans, we usually know more about their gender rather than their sex: for example, we often know about their clothing and hairstyles but not very much about their body organs, chromosomes, or hormones. (Furthermore, and this fact may be obvious, but clothing and hairstyles are not necessarily signifiers of any particular gender identity.) Among humans, sex and gender may be related, but they are not equivalent. In other words, female and woman are often thought to be synonymous, but in reality, female refers to different characteristics than woman does. It also seems worth noting that both of these sets of categories (sex and gender) are imperfect systems that we have developed in an attempt to describe the world we live in. As with all categorization systems (such as species, or developmental stages), the world is more complicated than our words can capture
Seversky
March 24, 2022
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BA: The employee refused to affirm the lie that a man was a woman and the employer fired the employee for refusing to affirm that lie. That is evil.
No, the employee opted to behave inappropriately in the work place. So much so that it made the transgendered persons work life miserable and seriously impacted her coworkers.
KF: Re labelling sex as gender (which is held to be in the head) then inventing dozens of alleged genders etc becomes part of the problem, as personal identity in a healthy person aligns with expression of XX or XY chromosomes and significance for society.
Speaking of the brain and reality, the structure and functioning of the transgendered brain resembles more closely the gender they identify as than that of their biological sex. If injecting hormones and dressing and acting as the stereotype of the opposite sex makes a person happier and more comfortable, I could care less. I will refer to them by their new name, using the pronouns they prefer, and be polite and supportive.Scamp
March 24, 2022
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KF @ 49 Wow, that's a blast from the past. Nixon's lap dog. The funny thing about Bork is that if he had shown the confirmation committee just a modicum of deference, he would have gotten Powell's slot on the USSC. Instead, he was a victim of his own arrogance and political naivete. Afterall, the USSC is a political animal, for good or bad. Ironically, his record on the DC Circuit was slightly left of center on a number of civil rights issues. But he was too outspoken about abortion and executive power. Watergate came back to haunt him. His writings afterword were too dystopian as he "slouched" into bitter preachiness and irrelevance. Like I posted above, I have more faith in Americans than the entitled purveyors of societal disintegration that post on this blog, constantly ranting and raving about the immanent Armageddon and their unique lock on "the truth." Living in that world is a depressing form of self-imposed exile, cutting yourself off from what I consider the most diverse, free and humane culture and, in many ways, the messiest, in history.chuckdarwin
March 24, 2022
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Scamp:
There was one employee who refused to do this, refusing to address the person by her changed name and otherwise refusing to respect the decision. The president fired this person for creating a poisoned work environment.
The employee refused to affirm the lie that a man was a woman and the employer fired the employee for refusing to affirm that lie. That is evil. Listen, a man can say he is a woman all day long. That is none of my business. But when he wants to force me to say that he is a woman, that is my business and I refuse to do so. You apparently have no problem affirming the lie and don't seem to understand why someone else might not be willing to murder the truth along with you. To which I reply with a quote from Solzhenitsyn, who, as a resident of the USSR, knew a thing or two about others trying to force him to lie: "Let your credo be this. Let the lie come into the world. Let it even triumph. But not through me."Barry Arrington
March 24, 2022
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Vivid:
As KF pointed out there are bigger issues at play. A society that denies reality is a society in serious decline.
Especially, when the denial is backed by power, leading to the DoI's long train of abuses and usurpations; raising, the question of a common design or agenda, hopeless subjugation under unaccountable, arbitrary, lawless oligarchic power. The moment in 1984 where Winston Smith is broken by torture to accept that 2 + 2 = whatever the Party needs it to be, is Orwell's way of putting the point. It seems, we are failing to realise that power backed untruth is the foundation of injustice and attacks sound conscience. Havel's discussion of the greengrocer decorating his store front with the appropriate prepackaged slogans, knowing but denying to himself that he dare not do otherwise, speaks. Ruinous marches/voyages of folly predictably come from such. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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Scamp “Many of the transgendered controversies are a tempest in a teapot. “ As KF pointed out there are bigger issues at play. A society that denies reality is a society in serious decline. “Things like the bathroom issue for example” Are you a man or woman? How about open locker rooms where a man has not fully physically transitioned? “Their participation in women’s sports is a different issue. Personally, I don’t think it should be allowed at the top competitive levels.” Why the heck not after all they are women are they not? You would deny a woman the opportunity to participate in women sports? Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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F/N, isn't it interesting that while we readily hear dismissive remarks about slippery slope fallacies, we seldom hear a serious discussion of Machiavelli's political hectic fever, or the need to be several moves and counter moves ahead of the board in the multidimensional geostrategic chess game?kairosfocus
March 23, 2022
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PS, the deeper literary allusion, reflecting the shock of the Great War and Russian Revolution (etc):
The Second Coming W. B. Yeats - 1865-1939 Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Bork comments, as he opens his book:
When Yeats wrote that in 1919, he may have foreseen that the twentieth century would experience the “blood-dimmed tide,” as indeed it has. But he can hardly have had any conception of just how thoroughly things would fall apart as the center failed to hold in the last third of this century. He can hardly have foreseen that passionate intensity, uncoupled from morality, would shred the fabric of Western culture. The rough beast of decadence, a long time in gestation, having reached its maturity in the last three decades, now sends us slouching towards our new home, not Bethlehem but Gomorrah.
PPS, it seems the 25 year old CSpan vid is sadly problematic, okay, here is a YT lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wKAyZ15dvUkairosfocus
March 23, 2022
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Sev & CD (& attn Vivid): I made a literary allusion that you missed: https://www.amazon.com/Slouching-Towards-Gomorrah-Liberalism-American/dp/0060573112
Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline Paperback – December 16, 2003 by Robert H. Bork [ . . . ] In this New York Times bestselling book, Robert H. Bork, our country's most distinguished conservative scholar, offers a prophetic and unprecedented view of a culture in decline, a nation in such serious moral trouble that its very foundation is crumbling: a nation that slouches not towards the Bethlehem envisioned by the poet Yeats in 1919, but towards Gomorrah. Slouching Towards Gomorrah is a penetrating, devastatingly insightful exposé of a country in crisis at the end of the millennium, where the rise of modern liberalism, which stresses the dual forces of radical egalitarianism (the equality of outcomes rather than opportunities) and radical individualism (the drastic reduction of limits to personal gratification), has undermined our culture, our intellect, and our morality. In a new Afterword, the author highlights recent disturbing trends in our laws and society, with special attention to matters of sex and censorship, race relations, and the relentless erosion of American moral values. The alarm he sounds is more sobering than ever: we can accept our fate and try to insulate ourselves from the effects of a degenerating culture, or we can choose to halt the beast, to oppose modern liberalism in every arena. The will to resist, he warns, remains our only hope.
Video discussion https://www.c-span.org/video/?76471-1/slouching-gomorrah And BTW, CD, my point is direct, there is no nine-sided hexagon, that is an absurdity. Re labelling sex as gender (which is held to be in the head) then inventing dozens of alleged genders etc becomes part of the problem, as personal identity in a healthy person aligns with expression of XX or XY chromosomes and significance for society. Anyone who publicly fails to tell truth that is blatant here, that men and women are readily definable on patent characteristics and built in reproductive role vital to the future of a race of mortals with lifespan typically less than 100 years and with each upcoming generation needing sound nurture on pain of loss of civilisation goes along with the pattern being warned against, and that is directly in the context of further going down the road of twisting the court turned into a nine member co monarchy into an instrument of further imposition, with court packing by ideologically driven expansion further lurking in the wings. Notice, my core caution:
[17:] while one does not try to prove the self evident it is entirely in order to highlight that for one of sufficient maturity/experience to understand the claim thus its necessary truth and patent absurdity of attempted denial, to insist on denial is to cling to patent absurdity. The issue then becomes, why that insistence on blatant folly . . . . [25:] the power backed championing of patent absurdity is championing of untruth in intimidation of truth and sound conscience; injustice is founded on untruth and attacks sound conscience . . . . [27:] kindly note my context. Your construct is first comparable to here is a nine sided hexagon, and is enabling of the agenda of blatant untruth imposed by power in attack on sound conscience that does contribute bit by bit to the sort of 1984 style undermining I pointed to; which is what can indeed do serious harm to civilisation . . . Already, conversion of a high court into such a co monarchy is more than dangerous enough — why wasn’t this stoutly fought and corrected long since? Now, the slippery slope ratchet moves on to the next notch or two. So, no, I do not buy that this is of little consequence and can be ignored, a ratchet cumulatively trends somewhere . . .
As current events show, internal breakdown in the state with lead role in guarding civilisation in the face of geostrategic vultures pursuing expansionism is potentially suicidal folly. And yes, the dots all connect. Officially backed refusal to recognise truth about sex is an outrageous sign of the danger on matters of far subtler import, geostrategic peril. Well did Machiavelli warn that political disorders are like hectic fever, at first hard to diagnose when it is easy to cure. But, when for want of prompt diagnosis and proper treatment the course of the disease is obvious to all, it is far too late to cure. Hectic fever, geostrategic form, is advancing as we speak. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2022
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