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Nihilism at TSZ

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Over at The Skeptical Zone Learned Hand (who goes by “Colin” there) has been psychoanalyzing me.  I’m a wall builder don’t you know:

I think one major motivator of the “you’re a liar!” style of debate they’ve adopted is community identification. I’ve been thinking of this as building a wall. The point of the conversation is largely, not entirely, to show that “we think like this:” and “they think like that:”, or more pointedly, “look how stupid and ugly they are.” It makes it very easy to avoid questioning beliefs, because we cling particularly to those notions that separate us from them. It identifies and strengthens the community of us by redefining it in opposition to the ugliness and stupidity of them. And once that wall is built, it’s extremely hard to dismantle. Why on earth would you stop and seriously consider something a stupid and dishonest person says? And what would it say about you if you agreed with them? The wall exists to separate.

LH has been drinking deeply from the postmodern Kool-Aid, and it has led him to say some staggeringly stupid things.  Remember, this is the guy who says he does not believe that the law of identity (A=A) is infallibly true.  I pointed out to him that such a claim is absurd, self-defeating and incoherent and only an idiot or a liar would assert it.  Instead of withdrawing his idiotic claim, he doubles down and asserts that the only reason I refuse to countenance it is because I want to build a wall to insulate myself from the those who don’t think like me so that I can “cling” to the notion that A always and without exception in all possible universes equals A.

It beggars belief.  I will not bother to defend the self-evident truth of the law of identity.  Why?  Robert L. Kocher tells us why:

It is a fact of life that you cannot win an argument with someone who is not sane. Sane bystanders may come to agree with your presentation, but you have no way of convincing someone who is not sane of anything. . . suppose that I say that the red pen I happen to have in my hand at this moment is a red pen. Further suppose that someone else says it is not a red pen, but is instead a flower pot, or a suitcase or a TV set. As a practical matter, I am unable to refute the assertion that what I am holding in my hand is not a flower pot. That does not mean that I’m incorrect when I say that it is a red pen. Nor does it mean that I am intellectually weaker than the other person who is arguing that it is not a red pen. Nor does it mean that his assertion that it is not a red pen is correct.

It means that I have no stronger argument than the red pen being in my hand. There is no stronger argument possible than the simple fact of the red pen being in my hand. No stronger refutation of the other person’s arguments is possible. At some point there must be agreement on what constitutes basic reality.

Similarly to Kocher’s red pen, I have no greater argument that A=A than the self-evident fact that A=A.

No, the purpose of this post is not to refute Learned Hand, because to any reasonable observer Learned Hand’s insanity is self-refuting.  Instead, I want to consider why anyone would say such an idiotic thing.  He must know he is making a fool of himself, right?  No actually; exactly the opposite is true.  Kocher again:

It has become common for people who routinely engage in chronic psychotic levels of denial to consider themselves as being mental powerhouses, and to be considered by others as being mental powerhouses, because no one can break through their irrationality. This is often supported by a self-referencing congratulatory inner voice which says, “(guffaw) He REALLY didn’t have an answer for that one!” And they are correct. He didn’t have an answer.

Far from acknowledging the manifest folly of his statements, LH revels in it.  Only wall building rubes like Barry believe that A=A is infallibly, necessarily true; hyper-sophisticated intellectuals like myself are not so narrow minded.

So why do people like LH make such staggeringly stupid, borderline psychotic claims?  Well, LH feels free to psychoanalyze me, and I will now return the favor.  LH rejects the concept of absolute and infallible truth, because absolute and infallible truth acts as a check on his autonomous will.  If A always equals A, then maybe, just maybe, it is also always evil to kill little boys and girls, chop them into pieces and sell the pieces.  I assure you that it is no coincidence that LH rejects both assertions.  Because the rejection of any potential limit on LH’s autonomous will drives the nihilistic antinomianism at the core of his worldview.

Comments
Yes, goodusername, "wow" is a good word for it. If the law of identify is up for grabs, reason itself is impossible.Barry Arrington
September 10, 2015
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To say that it is not infallibly true is to say that perhaps it is not true. And that is to deny it.
... wowgoodusername
September 10, 2015
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LH:
I don’t deny the law of identity.
Of course you do. To say that it is not infallibly true is to say that perhaps it is not true. And that is to deny it. And we all know why you deny it. You want everything to be grey. And we know why you want everything to be grey. You do not want any hint of a check on your autonomous will. For example, you refuse to say that killing little boys and girls, chopping their bodies into pieces, and selling the pieces like meat is evil. And that makes you evil. That is not an insult. It is an observation.Barry Arrington
September 10, 2015
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The law of identity, which you deny, is even more basic than the law of noncontradiction. Nope--the harder you reach to justify your irascible rudeness, the further you get from any kind of cogent argument. I don't deny the law of identity. I assume it as an axiom. What I deny is that it is more than an axiom--that it is a proven concept rather than one we assume is true. LH, you don’t get an argument that we have infallible knowledge that the law of identity is true. As I have told you many times, no such argument is possible. Instead, your attack on the very foundation of reason itself deserves nothing but derision, mocking and shaming. For the same reason, this is wrong. We can reason just fine taking the LOI as an axiom, without capering about and pronouncing ourselves infallible. The danger in doing that is that people are inclined, as you've done, to take their presumed infallibility and extend it to much grander pronouncements. I deny that you are infallible. A position you yourself seem reluctant to admit is your own, given your quibbling about it above: Again with the “BA says he is infallible” lie. I do not. BA, if you don't think you're infallible, how can you say that you know things that cannot be doubted? If you aren't infallible, you could be in error about them. If you are infallible, how do you know? I think, instead of an answer or an argument, I'll get insulted again. Which is its own kind of answer. You don't know how to support the position you've built for yourself, in which your perceptions must be infallible but you cannot openly claim to be infallible. But having built the wall, you won't permit a serious conversation to breach it. So it's insult, insult, insult, clawing at citations to Lewis or Avicenna or whoever justify your inability to support your position. But it doesn't matter what Avicenna said. It matters what you say. And you can't find anything to say that supports your argument. What does that say about the argument? How do you know that you're infallible, BA? And how can you tell where that infallibility starts and stops?Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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LH
Insults and invective are the only response on offer.
Yes, that is true. I agree with Avicenna, a Persian philosopher, who said, "Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned." The law of identity, which you deny, is even more basic than the law of noncontradiction. LH, you don't get an argument that we have infallible knowledge that the law of identity is true. As I have told you many times, no such argument is possible. Instead, your attack on the very foundation of reason itself deserves nothing but derision, mocking and shaming. I know you can do better. Please try.Barry Arrington
September 10, 2015
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KF, We have something with distinct identity — say a bright red ball on a table — we label A. Zachriel had an interesting point on this at ATBC; I commend it to you. My own response is that you’ve established that there is a case for which A=A. That’s a waste of effort—we already agreed not only that A=A in the case of your ball, but that A=A for all cases of which I am aware or could imagine. Is my imagination infallible? It is not. Is my perspective god-like and all-encompassing? It is not. I cannot say that this principle is absolutely true in all possible cases, because I cannot predict or conceive of all possible cases. The principle works, and we can’t identify any case in which it doesn’t. That’s a good reason to proceed as if it’s true. But we are all operating with fallible tools from a limited perspective, which is why we say these are axioms, not proven to be true in all possible cases. It’s problematic enough when we limit the example to A=A. But BA’s position is that there’s a set of such principles, extending up into complex moral assertions: abortion is always wrong. How does he determine whether a question falls into the set of perfect truths? Shut up, you liar. How do we know the answers to such questions are infallibly correct? You’re a nihilistic dummy for even asking. There just don’t seem to be any answers. And without those answers, what’s our warrant for saying that a principle is unquestionably true, as opposed to simply being one we don’t have good cause to doubt? Maybe you can answer the question. How do we determine whether a given truth is self-evident and/or unquestionable? If we accept, as BA shouts, that 2+2=4 is such, then what is the smallest value of n for which n+n=2n is not a self-evident truth? (Be aware of the complication here: BA and SB have taken the position that not all additions qualify. And won’t it be awkward if your notions of how to identify self-evident truths give different answers than theirs?)Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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LH, Let's pause again a moment and look at the facts on the table. We have something with distinct identity -- say a bright red ball on a table -- we label A. This effects, automatically, a world partition: W = {A|~A} Now, consider A = A vs A = ~A The first, in words is, A is itself, i.e. we simply recognise the fact. The second denies the fact that is where the process started, the distinct recognised identity of A. Refusal to recognise distinct identity is irrational, and for all the fancy dress of clever words will often be a stubborn refusal to acknowledge unwelcome truth. Capital case in point, Lincoln's if someone says the tail of a sheep is a leg then a sheep has five legs. And, often, how dare you challenge me. Case in point, the ongoing abortion holocaust now multiplied by the selling of parts of the slaughtered children. But in fact by its nature a tail is not and cannot be a leg, it has a distinct, separate nature and identity. It just is not and cannot be a leg. That speaks to ever so many agendas we see today that boil down to the falsehood, chaos and nihilism, might and manipulation "make" truth, right, etc. Only, they don't and cannot. And, those who try this tactic thereby show how ruinous and foolish they are for our civilisation. Rhetorical game over. KFkairosfocus
September 10, 2015
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LH: [BA] just can’t seem to articulate how he knows that [A=A].
... You are right. There is absolutely no support for the proposition that A=A that is more fundamental than A=A. But it is a mystery why you think that helps your case instead of making you look psychotic.
But as I've said, the question isn't whether A=A. The question is how you know you cannot be in error. And, the more challenging question, how do you discriminate between [BA's beliefs that might be wrong] and [BA's statements that are infallible]? Insults and invective are the only response on offer. What about an argument?Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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That you would ask such a question betrays your ignorance about what an analytic proposition is. Go study and come back when you think you can keep up. That’s an insult, not an argument or an answer. Great for wall-building, not so great for establishing that you are, in fact, able to substantiate your infallibility. Maybe you missed my edit above. Why is the distinction relevant to this discussion? Is it relevant to your case for infallibility, or was it just meant to suggest that there is a case lurking somewhere under the stream of invective?Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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LH:
[BA] just can’t seem to articulate how he knows that [A=A].
And you can’t seem to stop confirming Kocher:
It has become common for people who routinely engage in chronic psychotic levels of denial to consider themselves as being mental powerhouses, and to be considered by others as being mental powerhouses, because no one can break through their irrationality. This is often supported by a self-referencing congratulatory inner voice which says, “(guffaw) He REALLY didn’t have an answer for that one!” And they are correct. He didn’t have an answer
. You are right. There is absolutely no support for the proposition that A=A that is more fundamental than A=A. But it is a mystery why you think that helps your case instead of making you look psychotic.Barry Arrington
September 10, 2015
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LH: Per the issues involved the LOI, LNC and LEM will always work in any possible world. As WAC 38 shows, these laws are directly relevant to quantum theory despite woolly minded remarks that have been made to the contrary, just start with the acts of observation and measurement and linked analysis from the proverbial chalk-board on. KF PS: I clip on the key discoveries:
at each stage, the scientists were comparing observations with what the classical theory predicted, and were implicitly assuming that if the theory, T, predicted observations, O, but we saw NOT-O instead, then T was wrong. Q: Why is that? A: Because they respected the logical law of identity [LOI], and its travelling companions, the law of non-contradiction [LNC] and the excluded middle [LEM]. If a scientific theory T is consistent with and predicts observations O, but we see the denial of O, i.e. NOT-O, O is first seen as distinct and recognisably different from NOT-O [LOI]. The physicists also saw that O and NOT-O cannot both be so in the same sense and circumstances [LNC], and they realised that once O is a distinct phenomenon they would see O or NOT-O, not both or something else [LEM]. (Where also, superposition is not a blending of logical opposites, but an interaction between contributing parents, say P and Q to get a composite result, say R; as we can see with standing waves on a string or a ripple tank’s interference pattern.) Going further, when such scientists scratched out their equations and derivations on their proverbial chalk boards, they were using distinct symbols, and were reasoning step by step on these same three laws. In short, the heart of the scientific method inescapably and deeply embeds the classic laws of thought. You cannot do science, including Quantum Theory science, without basing your work on the laws of thought. So, it is self-refuting and absurd to suggest that Quantum Theory results can or do undermine these laws of thought. In short, to then suggest that empirical discoveries or theoretical analysis now overturns the basic laws of thought, is to saw off the branch on which science must sit, if it is to be a rational enterprise at all. And, while it is easy to get lost in the thickets of quantum weirdness, if we trace carefully, we will always see this.
kairosfocus
September 10, 2015
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LH, you have been present when self evidence has been explained and demonstrated per various examples. As you know or full well should know but find rhetorically inconvenient, the LOI, LNC and LEM are self evident. No person of reasonable education can but know this on reasonable inspection. These principles are not on trial, our willingness to be led by the first principles of right reason is. On fair comment, from what I have seen, while I would prefer a reduction of voltage all around, I would be remiss if I did not note that resistance, sarcasm, projections and the like do not commend you before that bar. KFkairosfocus
September 10, 2015
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LH:
Are you asserting that you are infallible only when it comes to analytic propositions?
That you would ask such a question betrays your ignorance about what an analytic proposition is. Go study and come back when you think you can keep up.Barry Arrington
September 10, 2015
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Without distinct identity we can neither think coherently nor communicate clearly. In other words, it works. Agreed! And it's why in practice I never doubt that 2+2=4. But the fact that it works for human purposes, on a human scale, doesn't mean that it's logically, perfectly true in all possible cases. Axioms are axioms--we assume them, we build on them, and we rely on them. But we don't prove them. "I believe it, and I cannot be wrong!" is a long way from, "It works, so we can and will rely upon it." Mung, What is absolute certainty and how does it differ from being certain? Absolute certainty is 100% certainty with zero percent chance of error and certainty is like 99% certain with 1% chance of error? and doubt? where does that fit? I distinguish between practical certainty (A has always equaled A, the sun has always risen, etc.) and perfect, logical certainty (there is no case in which A cannot equal A, there is no way for a particle to also be a wave). Both can be in error, and I know of no way to exclude error perfectly, since ultimately we have only our own minds and perceptions with which to access reality and we know both can be in error. And I distinguish between cases in which doubt is possible and where doubt is impossible. In the former, we may or may not actually doubt, but it's possible. I don't doubt that the sun will rise tomorrow, but it's not perfectly certain that it will. In the latter, well, I don't think we can ever escape the possibility of doubt, because again, we are not perfect and cannot perfectly isolate the possibility of error. BA seems to disagree. There are questions for which he has answers. A=A, abortion is wrong. Doubt is impossible. And for him to have misidentified the questions in that set is impossible. He just can't seem to articulate how he knows that. Or how he discerns between those questions about which error is possible, and those about which error is impossible, without error. It's not intuition, it's not education, it's not acculturation, it's some extra sense that is infallible, and he knows it's infallible because... I don't know what goes behind those ellipses. "Shut up, idiot" seems to be the closest we've come to an answer.Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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Why BA, that looked almost like an argument--but not quite. Are you asserting that you are infallible only when it comes to analytic propositions? That still leaves unresolved how you know that you are infallible. (ETA, for clarity: Why does the distinction matter to this discussion? Is it because it affects the determination of where you are and are not infallible?)Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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Is it now a requirement to replace "certain" with absolute certainty? What is absolute certainty and how does it differ from being certain? Absolute certainty is 100% certainty with zero percent chance of error and certainty is like 99% certain with 1% chance of error? and doubt? where does that fit?Mung
September 10, 2015
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LH, I have no cause to discard this in this case connected to self evidence. Without distinct identity we can neither think coherently nor communicate clearly. Indeed both this and your communications implicitly pivot on distinct identity. Where, once the world partition is on the table, we see that A is distinct from ~A, and A is A. It cannot but be so, and to pretend instead that A = ~A is to surrender distinction, rational thought and communication. To see that try to reply to this comment without distinguishing it from what is not this comment, and without using distinct symbols, thoughts and concepts. It cannot be done, the attempt would be absurd. That is part of the context of self-evidence. KFkairosfocus
September 10, 2015
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LH:
Just like those people who denied, with perfect certainty, that a particle can be a wave
You do not understand the difference between analytic propositions and synthetic propositions. How do I know? Because you keep comparing a synthetic proposition about waves and particles to an analytic proposition [A=A]. Apples and oranges. Until you understand the difference, you will continue to be hopelessly confused. Try Wikipedia. It has a fairly good article on the subject.Barry Arrington
September 10, 2015
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LH, axioms are not to be equated to arbitrary assumptions to be taken up and discarded at pleasure I agree. "I have no good cause to discard this" is a very different position from "I am infallibly certain that I cannot be wrong that this is true in all possible cases." And yes, of course they are not subject to further proof or warrant, they are embedded in any act of warrant or proof we can undertake. We cannot but work with them, I agree! They can't be proven. They're assumed. And we make that assumption because it works--even because in our experience it's necessary. Of course, as humans, our experience is limited. we cannot bus =t see that hey are so, are necessarily so on pain of absurdity on denial, tantamount to denying distinct identity of things And here you're jumping out into the ether. Bear in mind I've never denied that A always = A in my experience. I only say that my experience, like yours, is limited. I can't be infallibly certain that there isn't a counter-example out beyond the scope of my understanding ... just like those people who denied, with perfect certainty, that a particle can be a wave.Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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LH, axioms are not to be equated to arbitrary assumptions to be taken up and discarded at pleasure -- more ot he point at caprice, at will, as in will to raw power, might makes right, truth, sense etc, which is absurd on its face.. In certain cases, they are self-evident truths, and this is one such. Once we recognise distinct identity LOI, LNC and LEM are instantly at work. And yes, of course they are not subject to further proof or warrant, they are embedded in any act of warrant or proof we can undertake. We cannot but work with them, and we cannot bus =t see that hey are so, are necessarily so on pain of absurdity on denial, tantamount to denying distinct identity of things. KFkairosfocus
September 10, 2015
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LH, we know all about the tactic of the red herring dragged across the issue, and led out to a suitably set up, loaded strawman that can be set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere. None of that is relevant. I draw your attention tot he issue on the table, that LOI, LNC and LEM are self evidently so and are first principles of reason so that to deny such or to ignore them is to become irrational. 2300 years after Aristotle et al drew our attention to these hitherto latent principles, we should realise the matches those who would undermine our confidence in them are playing with. KFkairosfocus
September 10, 2015
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LOI, LNC and LEM are not on trial here, it is those who imagine they can object tot hem successfully and avoid absurdity. They are very effective axioms. But they are axioms, not proven concepts--we assume they are true because we cannot imagine any way in which they could be false. But to say that our failure to imagine a counterexample means there cannot be a counterexample is to arrogate to ourselves infallibility. As with someone who claimed, in 1800, that obviously a particle cannot also be a wave. Sometimes we fail to imagine counterexamples because we are limited in our understanding and perspective.Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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Lots of insults, lots of bitterness--and not a word about how a fallible person can know, infallibly, that their beliefs are not in error. The map is not the territory, BA. The question is not whether the abstract concept of A=A is infallibly true, but whether your belief that the concept is true is infallible. You do, in fact, arrogate the quality of infallibility to yourself: to do otherwise would be to admit that you could be wrong about whether A=A is always, perfectly true. And is it possible to be wrong about such beliefs? Sure! That's the point of the photon example above. We could also point to people who believed, prior to quantum mechanics, that something can't move from one point to a distant point without crossing space in between. Their beliefs were wrong because their perspective was limited--they could not see every possible case, because they were human beings, not gods. But look at the easy Olympus you've built for yourself: There are infallible truths. You know those truths infallibly. Therefore any who question your knowledge are scum. As long as you sustain that chain of belief, you never have to question yourself. How comforting! And how unfounded. Because how do you know that your own knowledge is infallible?Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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Folks, Let's take it from the top. (I leave off the polarisation -- we need to recognise that some things are indeed really certain and readily known as such to any intelligent person with a grade school education.) Let us take a few moments to see why the LOI and its close corollaries LNC and LEM are true, necessarily true and so on pain of patent absurdity, i.e. self evident. Lest they be lost under the clouds of confusion distraction and polarisation that are so evident above. Start with some distinct thing A in our world, W. (For concreteness, I often start from a bright red ball on a table.) This effects a dichotomisation: W = {A| ~A} Immediately A is itself, and not ~A. LOI. No x in the world van be both A and ~A. LNC. Likewise any x in the world will be in A XOR ~A. That is it will be in A or in ~A but not both or neither. LEM. To reject or distort these would be to create immediate chaos, and is a rejection of distinct identity. But just to comment here we depend on that distinct identity of symbols, and we cannot but acknowledge our own distinct identity. Some things are certain without further proof, other than that to deny is to descend immediately into absurdity. To pretend otherwise and to pretend that such is being nice and open-minded (unlike those nasty fundy black and white thinkers) is to be irrational. Literally, these are the core principles of right reason. To surrender such is to surrender reason. As the objectors -- educated persons one and all -- know or should know. (And BTW, when LH or GUN post objections the very text of the posts relies on just these laws of thought -- they are inescapable. Also, the logical opposite of white is NOT-white, any shade of yellow, pink, green or purple will do, not just black.) When we see the onward debates -- that is a sign in itself, debate is that wicked art that makes the worse appear the better case, being aided therein by rhetoric, the art of persuasion, not warrant or proof -- that should be borne in mind. LOI, LNC and LEM are not on trial here, it is those who imagine they can object tot hem successfully and avoid absurdity. I add, the fact that highly educated people imagine they can get away with rhetorically dismissing such first principles or pretending that they are not as certain as they are, is itself a saddening sign of where our civilisation has reached. KFkairosfocus
September 10, 2015
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LH
BA’s approach here is pretty reductionist. You’re either infallibly certain or you doubt, no middle ground.
Why yes, that is what those words mean. That LH wants to affirm that he has no doubt and yet is still not certain means that he is deeply confused.
But to say that I’m infallibly certain would require taking the position that I’m infallible, and I can’t do that.
LH again attempts to cloak his arrogance in humility.
BA's solution is to build a wall.
If by “building a wall” you mean “distinguishing between idiotic statements and rational statements” then yes I do. Sadly LH is on the wrong side of that wall. Even more sadly, he is happy to be there.
Once that dichotomy is firmly established, how can BA cross that line? The more he condemns the people who doubt him, the harder it becomes for him to doubt himself. At this point, to admit that his own infallibility is uncertain would be to admit that he was wrong--and that the dumb, dirty, insane people were right about something. Admitting error is hard enough, but the wall he's building makes it damn near impossible.
Dear readers, notice what LH has done here. He is saying that I am a morally reprehensible, divisive, intolerant wall builder for insisting that A=A is infallibly true. It is a disgusting rhetorical gambit, and he should be ashamed of himself. But he apparently has no shame. Let me tell you what is morally reprehensible LH. Your positon that it is not evil to kill little boys and girls, chop them into pieces an sell the pieces like so much meat in a market. And your assertion that A=A is not infallibly true is part and parcel of a mindset that allows you to also assert that killing little boys and girls is not evil.
It also restricts criticism from inside the wall. I suspect that not every UD regular, even the creationists, would agree that BA is infallible.
Again with the “BA says he is infallible” lie. I do not. It follows that LH’s argument based on that that premise is false.
He's defined the group of doubters on this point as stupid and dishonest and insane,
Yes. Anyone who doubts that A=A is stupid, dishonest and/or insane.
So the conversation dies, by design.
Conversation? We cannot have a conversation about whether A=A is false any more than we can have a conversation about what a square circle would look like. The fact that you want to have such a conversation does not mean you are humble, or smart, or sophisticated. It means that Kocher was correct when he wrote:
It has become common for people who routinely engage in chronic psychotic levels of denial to consider themselves as being mental powerhouses, and to be considered by others as being mental powerhouses, because no one can break through their irrationality. This is often supported by a self-referencing congratulatory inner voice which says, “(guffaw) He REALLY didn’t have an answer for that one!” And they are correct. He didn’t have an answer.
Yep, you are right. I cannot argue for the proposition that A=A. Either you accept it as infallibly true or you don't. But not accepting it as infallibley true does not mean you are smart or humble or sophisticated. It means you have drunk the postmodernist Kool-Aid and that has caused you to engage in psychotic levels of denial.
Consider the examples I posed . .
LH’s logic: A hundred years ago people made errors about physics. Therefore the laws of thought are up for grabs. Sigh.
Seems like that humility should be particularly easy for a Christian, . . .
Again, your rhetorical device is transparent and unseemly. Everyone sees what you are trying to do. You are trying to equate certainty about infallible truth with arrogance and uncertainty about infallible truth as humility. Just exactly the opposite is true. There are infallible self-evident truths, and I bow to them and accept them and the limits those truths place on the exertion of my autonomous will. You arrogantly assert there are no infallibly certain limits on your autonomous will and then pretend you are merely being humble. That sound you just heard is the needle on the irony meter breaking the stop.Barry Arrington
September 10, 2015
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box,
You’ve missed Insane Denial, Example 2,793.
I had seen that thread, and I looked it over again. But I'm not sure what you're trying to direct me to there.
UDEditors: Yes, you missed something.
K, although whatever it is I'm missing directly contradicts everything I've seen from LH thus far.goodusername
September 10, 2015
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News, Sooner or later, no matter how much someone complains, the debt is owed. You characterize me as the complainer, but what have I withheld? I've explained my beliefs whenever asked. BA can't quite bring himself to do that. Why are you infallible? You're an idiot for doubting it. Why are you infallible, though? You're a liar for doubting it. But why are you infallible? You're insane for doubting it. Your example is telling. But who's withholding an explanation, and using angry rhetoric to distract from that telling failure?Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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GUN, BA's approach here is pretty reductionist. You're either infallibly certain or you doubt, no middle ground. I can only report my own experience: I've never doubted that A=A in the real world, and I would never expect to find (nor can I conceive of) a counter-example. But to say that I'm infallibly certain would require taking the position that I'm infallible, and I can't do that. Because I, like BA and SB, can't come up with any logical reason that a fallible mind can be infallible. Any process of confirming such infallibility would be subject to error, and any process of controlling such error would be subject to error, ad infinitum. I can't resolve that, and I'm unwilling to pretend that it doesn't exist. My solution is to admit that I can't be infallibly certain. BA's solution is to build a wall. He does not want to confront this question, and why should he? It's only relevant if he's willing to scrutinize his own beliefs, and I don't see any indication that he wants to do that. Indeed, the wall is there to make it easier to defend those beliefs against scrutiny. The more he emphasizes that it's not only wrong, but stupid and dishonest and insane to doubt his infallibility, the more he separates us (those who believe BA can be infallible) from the them (the dumb, dirty, insane people). Once that dichotomy is firmly established, how can BA cross that line? The more he condemns the people who doubt him, the harder it becomes for him to doubt himself. At this point, to admit that his own infallibility is uncertain would be to admit that he was wrong--and that the dumb, dirty, insane people were right about something. Admitting error is hard enough, but the wall he's building makes it damn near impossible. It also restricts criticism from inside the wall. I suspect that not every UD regular, even the creationists, would agree that BA is infallible. But can they openly doubt him? He's defined the group of doubters on this point as stupid and dishonest and insane, remember--a clear signal that this shall not be disputed by those who wish to remain inside the wall. So the conversation dies, by design. And BA restricts external and internal criticism and doubt to the best of his ability; not even BA can easily climb the wall to question his own beliefs. This is how Uncommon Dissent handles dissent. I don't mean that BA is the only person who builds walls! We all do it. I'm doing it by criticizing him. I think it's incumbent on us to try to minimize the damage. Because it's important to scrutinize one's own beliefs. Consider the examples I posed to SB, for example, that he found it so urgently necessary to ignore. A couple of hundred years ago, even the most careful thinker would have found it amply justifiable to believe, absolutely, that something cannot be both a particle and a wave. It's one or the other, A or B, not both: A can only be A, not also B. And if that person were BA, and built the walls BA built, he'd make it very difficult to ever question that seemingly self-evident belief. But that person would have been wrong. His perspective was limited, and he was unable to see that a photon can be wavelike and particlelike. That limitation wasn't his fault--he couldn't have predicted scientific advances in the future, or seen exceptions that don't even exist on the human scale (as far as we know). But he could have examined his own beliefs. He could have asked, "How do I know I'm infallible?" And if he didn't have an answer, he could have had the humility to say, "I'm not." Seems like that humility should be particularly easy for a Christian, who can know if nothing else that God can deceive a man such that the man cannot pierce the deception. And that humans are fallible according to the word. But what do I know? I guess we have to leave the interpretation of religion up to the infallible among us.Learned Hand
September 10, 2015
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LoL! The major motivator for calling someone a liar is to expose them as a liar. Evolutionists have to lie to try to defeat ID. They don't have anything else.Virgil Cain
September 10, 2015
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Goodusername: LH rejects that A always equals A? From what I’ve seen he seems to believe that A=A, but I may have missed something.
You've missed Insane Denial, Example 2,793.Box
September 10, 2015
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