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Nihilism at TSZ

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Over at The Skeptical Zone Learned Hand (who goes by “Colin” there) has been psychoanalyzing me.  I’m a wall builder don’t you know:

I think one major motivator of the “you’re a liar!” style of debate they’ve adopted is community identification. I’ve been thinking of this as building a wall. The point of the conversation is largely, not entirely, to show that “we think like this:” and “they think like that:”, or more pointedly, “look how stupid and ugly they are.” It makes it very easy to avoid questioning beliefs, because we cling particularly to those notions that separate us from them. It identifies and strengthens the community of us by redefining it in opposition to the ugliness and stupidity of them. And once that wall is built, it’s extremely hard to dismantle. Why on earth would you stop and seriously consider something a stupid and dishonest person says? And what would it say about you if you agreed with them? The wall exists to separate.

LH has been drinking deeply from the postmodern Kool-Aid, and it has led him to say some staggeringly stupid things.  Remember, this is the guy who says he does not believe that the law of identity (A=A) is infallibly true.  I pointed out to him that such a claim is absurd, self-defeating and incoherent and only an idiot or a liar would assert it.  Instead of withdrawing his idiotic claim, he doubles down and asserts that the only reason I refuse to countenance it is because I want to build a wall to insulate myself from the those who don’t think like me so that I can “cling” to the notion that A always and without exception in all possible universes equals A.

It beggars belief.  I will not bother to defend the self-evident truth of the law of identity.  Why?  Robert L. Kocher tells us why:

It is a fact of life that you cannot win an argument with someone who is not sane. Sane bystanders may come to agree with your presentation, but you have no way of convincing someone who is not sane of anything. . . suppose that I say that the red pen I happen to have in my hand at this moment is a red pen. Further suppose that someone else says it is not a red pen, but is instead a flower pot, or a suitcase or a TV set. As a practical matter, I am unable to refute the assertion that what I am holding in my hand is not a flower pot. That does not mean that I’m incorrect when I say that it is a red pen. Nor does it mean that I am intellectually weaker than the other person who is arguing that it is not a red pen. Nor does it mean that his assertion that it is not a red pen is correct.

It means that I have no stronger argument than the red pen being in my hand. There is no stronger argument possible than the simple fact of the red pen being in my hand. No stronger refutation of the other person’s arguments is possible. At some point there must be agreement on what constitutes basic reality.

Similarly to Kocher’s red pen, I have no greater argument that A=A than the self-evident fact that A=A.

No, the purpose of this post is not to refute Learned Hand, because to any reasonable observer Learned Hand’s insanity is self-refuting.  Instead, I want to consider why anyone would say such an idiotic thing.  He must know he is making a fool of himself, right?  No actually; exactly the opposite is true.  Kocher again:

It has become common for people who routinely engage in chronic psychotic levels of denial to consider themselves as being mental powerhouses, and to be considered by others as being mental powerhouses, because no one can break through their irrationality. This is often supported by a self-referencing congratulatory inner voice which says, “(guffaw) He REALLY didn’t have an answer for that one!” And they are correct. He didn’t have an answer.

Far from acknowledging the manifest folly of his statements, LH revels in it.  Only wall building rubes like Barry believe that A=A is infallibly, necessarily true; hyper-sophisticated intellectuals like myself are not so narrow minded.

So why do people like LH make such staggeringly stupid, borderline psychotic claims?  Well, LH feels free to psychoanalyze me, and I will now return the favor.  LH rejects the concept of absolute and infallible truth, because absolute and infallible truth acts as a check on his autonomous will.  If A always equals A, then maybe, just maybe, it is also always evil to kill little boys and girls, chop them into pieces and sell the pieces.  I assure you that it is no coincidence that LH rejects both assertions.  Because the rejection of any potential limit on LH’s autonomous will drives the nihilistic antinomianism at the core of his worldview.

Comments
That is actually a very good question. It is obvious that you put a lot of thought into it.
This is pretty elementary stuff in philosophy, as I understand it.
To answer your question, No, it isn’t possible. Our internal logic (the law of non-contradiction) corresponds perfectly to the logic of the real world (Law of Identity). If it were not the case, a sound argument, which requires premises that are true about the real world, would not be possible.
You've not addressed all the options. It could be that many -- uncountably many sound arguments (which implies sound premises) about the real world obtain, and yet other aspects of reality remain unintelligible. In such a universe, synthetic knowledge obtains, and the LOI remains what it was chartered to be -- a tool for thinking and reasoning about the world around us and our experiences in it. Your conclusion doesn't follow. True and sound premises can ground sound arguments in which there also exist other aspects of reality that defy such "bucketing" to fit into the needs of human cognition. And, your response claims it's "not possible", then backs up with why you don't think that that isn't the case. That doesn't support "not possible", but only "I don't think that's how it is".
The Law of Identity (A = A) is not a statement about letters of the alphabet. The letter A represents or signifies a thing in the real world with an identity, which is defined by its “essence” or “what” it is. The law of non-contradiction, on the other hand, refers to what we think or say about that thing in the real world, not the thing itself.
Yes, but the same benefits and risks apply. This is the dynamics of the map, not the territory. If we find something that in our language and conceptual faculties looks defiantly contradictory for us, that is a problem for our language and conceptual abilities, not for reality. Reality doesn't give a damn if we are confounded (to anthropomorphize impersonal nature for aesthetic language reasons).
Give me your answer on that, and that will establish some clear semantics for “identity”. The “identity” in “Law of Identity” is conceptual, logical. No, the Identity in the LOI is ontological, not conceptual. It is about existence or being, not our perceptions of existence or being.
No, and this is easy shown. "2" in "2+2=4" does not exist. It does not have "being" in any synthetic sense. It's a conceptual construct, and doesn't need to "subsist" in any metaphysical or physical sense. It is just a symbol that can be differentiated (this is why identity is fundamental) from "~2" or "not two". That doesn't mean we can't apply our LOI fundamental tools to questions of ontology or any other matter; we can and we do. But it's transcendental to ontology. Any contemplation of being presupposes the deployment of the concept of identity, the application of the LOI. We may apply it well or foolishly -- doesn't matter. What matters is that its a transcendental for ontology.
It pertains to patterns of human thought. No, the Law of Identity pertains to the thing that human thought apprehends. It is the law of non-contradiction, which pertains to human thought. Example: [A bear cannot also be a Zebra. Law of Identity]. The law of non-contradiction pertains to true and false statements about the bear and the Zebra.
No, see above. You can convince yourself of this without any more help from me just be looking at how LOI is transcendental to, say symbolic calculus, or more broadly, distinction of any kind. To distinguish or differentiate, we must rely on a fundamental concept of identity. This is why we call it "fundamental".
This is NOT a physical principle, it is not a natural law, if you prefer that term. Agree? That is correct.
OK, booyah. Given what you've said just above, though, I have to follow up and ask: do you consider the law of non-contradiction to be a physical principle as opposed to a tool that enables and underwrites human thought/reasoning?
Oh I’m sure you both come at things from a different angle, fine. But clearly, you both are in the same point of confusion/conflation on the question of identity as a logical principle for thinking, versus a physical principle in nature. I hope my explanation convinced you that Barry and I are not confused.
It's confirmed the confusion. You've "outed" yourself, if that's not clear, with this:
To answer your question, No, it isn’t possible. Our internal logic (the law of non-contradiction) corresponds perfectly to the logic of the real world (Law of Identity). If it were not the case, a sound argument, which requires premises that are true about the real world, would not be possible.
This nails it down. Your belief that your reasoning capacities "corresponds perfectly to the logic of there real world" is more than I could ask for in making my point. You are free to think that, and I totally believe this to be an earnest and honest revelation. But it seals the deal in terms of conflating the analytic and the synthetic. You're committed to "perfect correspondence" - an interchangeability that substantiates what I've been claiming above. If there is such a perfect correspondence, then the analytic is synthetic, and there is no distinction that make a difference between the two. It doesn't matter that this is not logically necessary or otherwise grounded by you, here. Just putting it out there validates what Barry is trying to wriggle out -- and so are you, apparently. If you read your own post here, you can see that you are committed to conflation I'm decrying here.
I don’t think Christians see a unity underneath the analytical tools “God gave us” and the intelligibility of the universe He designed for us. That explains, but doesn’t excuse the error. The axiom is just that — an axiom. We have perfectly no warrant for conflating an logical axiom with a physical principle, religious superstitions notwithstanding.
The Law of Identity is not a law of nature, though it can be applied to nature. It is nothing like “gravity,” or other human descriptions of the way nature works or operates. It has nothing to do with “law-like” regularity. It has everything to do with what nature (and everything in it) is and is not, or can be or not be. Religious superstition has nothing to do with the law of identity. It is superstitious to deny or question that law. it is also superstitious to discount it by saying that it is a mere axiom.
But what "is" is a synthetic question, a proposition about the extra-mental world, not a concept that underwrites how we think and communicate as matter of reasoning (an analytic proposition, in other words). So here again, you've confused definitions for epistemic claims about the nature of the extra-mental world. And just as clearly, you're not even aware that you are doing it. This is understandable, I guess, given your commitment to "perfect correspondence" -- who would not get confused if one bought into that laugher? As soon as you starting talk about "is" as a proposition pertaining to the mental world, it's synthetic, it's not a principle of reasoning, but rather a knowledge claim about the world outside our minds.eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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E
when I read “I cannot therefore be logically, absolutely certain of anything—not even that A=A.”, that can only be understood as an epistemic claim, a statement about synthetic knowledge.
Correction. LH's statement can be read rationally only to apply to synthetic knowledge. Yet if you had read the exchanges as you said you did, you would know that he means it in ever sense of the word and insists that he is not limiting it to synthetic knowledge. In other words, his claim is not rational; it is borderline psychotic. And that is why you looked foolish when you jumped in and said you agreed with his borderline psychotic claims.Barry Arrington
September 12, 2015
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LH,
I believe LH is quite up to speed on tautologies and axioms,
And he nevertheless says he cannot be certain of even a tautology. He says the only thing one can be certain of is that one can be certain of nothing. I know. It is internally incoherent, and that has been pointed out to him. Yet he insists upon it. And that is why you looked so foolish when you said you agreed with him. Why do you kick against the goads E? LH is wrong, and you know he is wrong. You've said that what he say cannot possibly be true. And yet you continue to defend him. That speaks poorly of your character.Barry Arrington
September 12, 2015
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E,
I understand A=A here to be invoked as a synthetic proposition
Now you are just lying to try to cover your foolishness. It always comes to this with you E. You say something foolish. I demonstrate it. You lie about what you said. The irony is you are not deceiving anyone, not me, not the readers, no one. I don't know why you feel compelled to heap deceit upon foolishness. But you always do.Barry Arrington
September 12, 2015
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KF,
F/N: Many definitions are dubious. KF
OK, well, this is a great way to further document the confusion and conflation you share with Barry and StephenB on this. Give me an example of a definition -- one of the many! -- that you discern as dubious. What is an example of a "dubious definition"? As this is a trick question, let me warn you ahead of time -- your doubt obtains from the synthetic content that comes from APPLYING a definition, not from anything dubitable in the definition itself.
Bachelor: noun An adult man with red hair
Is this a dubious definition? There's nothing liable to doubt in the definition, as a definition. If you doubt it, you would be doubting what -- the appropriateness of the defintion to our experiences in the world? As a defintion, it's no more and no less doubtable than:
Bachelor: noun a man who is not and has never been married
We can doubt whether a person in question is a bachelor under either definition, but this is not the definition itself which is the subject of doubt -- it can't be, it's just a definition. We doubt whether the concepts we might apply from the definition fit this circumstance of that in the synthetic domain, as a statement about the state of the extra-mental world. Anyway, know that whatever definition you offer that is liable to doubt is not so liable as a definition, but only in the synthetic application of that definition. Even if we look at confused or incoherent syntax/semantics:
Bachelor: noun an orange smell, usually quite rapid
There's nothing to doubt -- there's not even a coherent concept to subject to doubt as a synthetic proposition. Anyway, I'm interested in your example of a "dubious definition", and anticipate showing that it exemplifies the confusion and misconceptions that underwrite much of what has been said on this thread.eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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@Barry,
ES says “There is no doubting a definition.” Learned Hand says “I cannot therefore be logically, absolutely certain of anything—not even that A=A.” Yet, ES says he agrees with LH. Ready to retract your statement yet E?
I understand A=A here to be invoked as a synthetic proposition. A definition is trivial -- it's a tautology, and not capable of carrying more or less certainty, as a definition. As a practical matter, humans use analytic propositions like A=A a form of metonymy, a way speaking in shorthand about synthetic propositions. In this case, it's handy (albeit sometimes counterproductive as we've seen in engaging people with your... approach to these issues) to invoke "identity" as the physical principle, the analytic concept as a pointer to broad empirically sound generalizations of what we experience in the world around us. As I said upthread, the baseball on my desk is not the whiskey glass next to it. Informally, the baseball has an "identity" that makes it "not the whiskey glass". This is useful, but as this thread shows, is a ditch people fall into conceptually if they are lazy or careless. There is no "identity" as a physical/metaphysical principle at work here that is analogous to our concept of it. We need to think that way to get our thinking off the ground, and that's fine -- in the same way Euclid needed his Fifth Postulate to do geometry. There's nothing he find that's inherently necessary or provable about parallel lines. He simply had to insert the axiom to get his geometry project off the ground. There no problem with that, so long as one can keep the map and the territory distinct. That is what I identify as the problem here. I believe LH is quite up to speed on tautologies and axioms, and so when I read "I cannot therefore be logically, absolutely certain of anything—not even that A=A.", that can only be understood as an epistemic claim, a statement about synthetic knowledge. There is no certainty to be had, more certain or less certain to be had, of a definition. So, I read that and "get it". I can say the same thing as him. I will just be explicit and say "I cannot therefore logically absolutely certain of anything -- not even A=A, where A=A is a synthetic proposition about the identity objects in the extra-mental world. Even that is not fully Barry-proof as a qualification, but it's still an awkward mouthful, a tiresome set of qualifications which shouldn't be needed by adults having an argument. You're quite capable of understanding the points being made, which is what makes a thread like this so tiresome. It's an exercise in manufactured aggression. It's one thing to disagree, but this is really trolling from you, when it gets boiled down. Or maybe Learned Hand will come in and set me straight and insist you were right all along and he is committed to some process of doubting (??) a definition, as a defintion. I'm not even sure what would mean if he claims what you say he will, but let's wait to deal with that until it's a fact of the matter from LH.eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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eigenstate
Let’s just get it out on the table: do you hold that it is logically possible for nature to behave and subsist in ways that are at odds with the tools you rightly identify as necessary and obligatory for reasoning?
That is actually a very good question. It is obvious that you put a lot of thought into it. To answer your question, No, it isn't possible. Our internal logic (the law of non-contradiction) corresponds perfectly to the logic of the real world (Law of Identity). If it were not the case, a sound argument, which requires premises that are true about the real world, would not be possible. The Law of Identity (A = A) is not a statement about letters of the alphabet. The letter A represents or signifies a thing in the real world with an identity, which is defined by its "essence" or "what" it is. The law of non-contradiction, on the other hand, refers to what we think or say about that thing in the real world, not the thing itself.
Give me your answer on that, and that will establish some clear semantics for “identity”. The “identity” in “Law of Identity” is conceptual, logical.
No, the Identity in the LOI is ontological, not conceptual. It is about existence or being, not our perceptions of existence or being.
It pertains to patterns of human thought.
No, the Law of Identity pertains to the thing that human thought apprehends. It is the law of non-contradiction, which pertains to human thought. Example: [A bear cannot also be a Zebra. Law of Identity]. The law of non-contradiction pertains to true and false statements about the bear and the Zebra.
This is NOT a physical principle, it is not a natural law, if you prefer that term. Agree?
That is correct. .
Oh I’m sure you both come at things from a different angle, fine. But clearly, you both are in the same point of confusion/conflation on the question of identity as a logical principle for thinking, versus a physical principle in nature.
I hope my explanation convinced you that Barry and I are not confused.
I don't think Christians see a unity underneath the analytical tools “God gave us” and the intelligibility of the universe He designed for us. That explains, but doesn’t excuse the error. The axiom is just that — an axiom. We have perfectly no warrant for conflating an logical axiom with a physical principle, religious superstitions notwithstanding.
The Law of Identity is not a law of nature, though it can be applied to nature. It is nothing like "gravity," or other human descriptions of the way nature works or operates. It has nothing to do with "law-like" regularity. It has everything to do with what nature (and everything in it) is and is not, or can be or not be. Religious superstition has nothing to do with the law of identity. It is superstitious to deny or question that law. it is also superstitious to discount it by saying that it is a mere axiom.StephenB
September 12, 2015
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@Barry
Learned Hand says “I cannot therefore be logically, absolutely certain of anything—not even that A=A.” Ouch Eigy. The chemicals interacting in your head led you astray there. Ya know, that is the problem with the smug condescension that you spewed in the comments above. When you are demonstrated to be totally wrong you look not only like an idiot but also an ass. Double ouch.
We'll let Learned Hand weigh in with clarification on this. I stand to be corrected if I'm mistaken. But my understanding of LH, having read his posts that A=A here, and any certainty being contemplated would be -- must be synthetic in nature. I think you fail to account for the willful misreading that typifies your responses to critics, here. But I'll let LH speak for himself if he wants. Just set aside the, uh, reflex for a moment and consider: does LH denying certainty about a definition make sense? "Certainty" and "definition" don't fit together conceptually -- for reasons I'm convinced you don't understand. If you read LH with the understanding, which I think is correct, that he is uncertain -- as am I! -- the A = A is a universal principle in physics (setting aside the problematic vagueness of that as a physical principle for the moment), all of Learned Hand's posts cohere nicely; his arguments make sense. You may not agree, but they hold together conceptually, no matter what you may make of the merits of their "correctness". If Learned Hand comes back and insists that he does doubt that a definition can be a definition -- an analytic proposition which is true-by-definition, rather than "A=A" as a synthetic, I will have been broadly mistaken about LH's positions and arguments here.eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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Yes, infallible as per that definition. Perhaps I should have said we might disagree about why it is infallible.Aleta
September 12, 2015
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Aleta, My dictionary defines "infallible" as "absolutely trustworthy or sure; certain." I don't think that definition varies according to religious belief or non-belief.Barry Arrington
September 12, 2015
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Barry asks,
Aleta, eigenstate says, “A=A is infallibly true and not dubitable as an analytic proposition.” I agree with him. Do you?
Yes. I believe I've said that in a number of posts lately. I imagine, given your theistic perspective and my non-theistic one, that you and I might disagree about the details of what we mean by "infallible", but I agree, and have said, that A = A is a fundamental, foundational axiom of reasoning.Aleta
September 12, 2015
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F/N: Many definitions are dubious. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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Aleta, different but related points. Reality comes first, in this case just to think we must reflect and use the reality of distinct identity. Description puts that in words, expressing a self evident truth that is indeed of abstract nature as the generic symbol A represents. But -- let me break up in stepwise points:
1 --> that abstract statement If A then A is always true -- 2 --> which is simultaneously A is equivalent to A (as A is on both sides of the implication) -- 3 --> will also correspond to the inner realities of conceptual symbolic thought and also 4 --> to our interaction with the external world; which undeniably has distinct things in it.
Where,
5 --> our ability to reflect in conceptual terms and to understand is in material part shaped by our experience of the world . . . 6 --> the means by which we attain to relevant maturity.
Including, the education that leads us to be able to understand (A =>A) = 1 including noting the significance of A being on both sides of the implication, i.e. to cross a pons asinorum. That insight leads us to see that in thought and in external world reality alike distinct identity exists and immediately leads to LOI, LNC and LEM by way of world partition W = {A|~A}. Where these are then recognised as necessarily true and as such on pain of absurdity. Nor can such be proved true as opposed to described in ways that allow us to understand, for in this case all proofs depend directly on the truths in question to get started. Any offered proof would instantly beg the question. Of course by now what is happening is that the elaborations in reply to various objections and tangents are far more complex than what is required to simply, directly see the self evident truths present in the reality of a bright red ball labelled A on a table (or our mental image of such). Einstein was right to say that everything should be as simple as possible but no simpler than that. I suggest, go get a bright red ball, set it up on a table and ponder what it says. If you want to drag in quantum speculations and blunders I suggest you read the UD weak argument corrective no 38. The laws of thought are prior to doing the physics of Q-mech and cannot be challenged by them, incantations about macro-vs- micro worlds notwithstanding: https://uncommondescent.com/faq/#LNC All you are achieving in the end is to show just how fatally cracked the foundation of so much of current thought is KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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Aleta, eigenstate says, "A=A is infallibly true and not dubitable as an analytic proposition." I agree with him. Do you?Barry Arrington
September 12, 2015
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kf writes, "reality always comes before and if necessary corrects description or reflection, especially in this case reflection in distinct symbols." I agree with this, in that we have created logical systems that reflect our macroscopic experience. This, however, seems in opposition to Barry and others' statements about logic having no need of empirical grounding or verification, and being self-evidently true independent of the material world. Do I read this disagreement correctly?Aleta
September 12, 2015
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ES says "There is no doubting a definition." Learned Hand says “I cannot therefore be logically, absolutely certain of anything—not even that A=A.” Yet, ES says he agrees with LH. Ready to retract your statement yet E?Barry Arrington
September 12, 2015
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ES, I repeat to you what I noted to Aleta in 131 as you have endorsed her remark:
if certain principles are rightly identified as necessary for reasoning, part of this will be that they are relevant to the real world. Do you mean, do you think it possible that you are a victim of grand delusion living in a Plato’s cave world of shadow shows? If the latter, what you really mean is at will you pop up the cave world to dismiss what you don’t want to hear; that is rational discourse is at an end and ideology takes over. The proper solution to this is that error exists and we may suffer from it, but no system that proposes a grand delusion or such a delusion at will is reasonable. It fails the logical-dynamical coherence and the broader comparative difficulties tests. As is common for such systems they sound clever and devastating until the other edge of the sword swings back and cuts its own throat.
KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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ES, reality always comes before and if necessary corrects description or reflection, especially in this case reflection in distinct symbols. Our experiences equip us to understand, ponder and describe, but mere word magic on our part does not alter reality. Did you have a bright red ball as a baby? Was that ball different from the rest of the world? All else follows. Including that statement A = A, A is A, or more instructively perhaps (A => A) = 1. Notice, how to make it, we rely on distinct identity. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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Eigenstate says : “my understanding is that [Learned Hand’s] doubt is not (and he’d agree cannot be) aimed at a definition.” Learned Hand says “I cannot therefore be logically, absolutely certain of anything—not even that A=A.” Ouch Eigy. The chemicals interacting in your head led you astray there. Ya know, that is the problem with the smug condescension that you spewed in the comments above. When you are demonstrated to be totally wrong you look not only like an idiot but also an ass. Double ouch.Barry Arrington
September 12, 2015
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@Aleta,
is it possible for nature to behave and subsist in ways that are at odds with the tools you rightly identify as necessary and obligatory for reasoning?
This suits me just fine. Better than my version, I'd agree.eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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before we ever get to stating that A = A, we have to reckon with the reality of distinct things that are identifiable, which can start with our first undeniable fact, self-aware existence. That is what effects the partition that underlies our recognition W = {A|~A}.
No, that's backwards, and demonstrably backwards. The reason we use symbols as we do in "A=A" is because the concept is an abstract principle. We apply it all kinds of practical ways, but the concept itself is a transcendental to "identifying". Identifying presupposes the LOI -- there is no "that" without a concept first of "this" that is not "that". I'm not sure how this matters below, but the LOI is truly fundamental, and "identifying"a s distinguishing is predicated on an underlying concept of identity.
It is in reflection of that reality that we accept the ontology that A is, and in being, it is itself and not the other that it is not, ~A. To try to speak, think or write, we depend on distinct identity, it is thus undeniable and undeniably real. The statement A is A, or (A=>A) = 1, is a reflection of that.
The LOI makes no claims regarding ontology, nor about how any A subsists or "is". The LOI divides some entity -- and this entity can be completely abstract or as concrete as chunk of concrete -- from "other" (~A). It's a logical distinction. It is useful and applicable in thinking about ontology, but it is not itself an ontological principle. LOI is transcendental to ontology, or just about any other -ology you can name. That is why I say it's fundamental. Strangely, your comments so far have pushed the LOI out of its place as a "fundamental" to a kind of conclusion or judgement one arrives at. It's an axiom, something we begin with, at the very start of the chain.
Now, I also see an echo of yet another classical self-referentially erroneous claim, the ugly unbridgeable gulch between inner and outer worlds. By the 1890’s F H Bradley had already spotted the fatal error in this. Namely to assert the unknowability of the external world of things in themselves is self-referential. It is a very strong knowledge claim about that world, and so it refutes itself.
Not my claim, nor science's. Rather, that we begin from a state of ignorance, and develop knowledge from there. We don't know the limits of intelligibility, and don't even know how that might be established. But two important points proceed from this: 1) we allow that the intelligibility of the world may be limited, and we understand that intelligibility only obtains where it can be demonstrated.
A safer step is to start with the undeniable claim, error exists, which implies that knowledge of truth exists. So, while there are errors, there are things that are not. And in particular, some truths about the world are self-evident. Among such are the immediate consequences of distinct identity, LOI, LNC and LEM. When we try to deny such, we undermine rationality itself.
Ayiyi. Ok, you've got the problem as bad as Barry and StephenB, clearly. A=A IS NOT A STATEMENT OF SYNTHETIC KNOWLEDGE. The LOI is a definition, a tautology. The extra-mental world may line up nicely with this kind of definition (a baseball on my desk is itself and not the whiskey glass beside it), or it may not (it's a particle, which is decidedly not a wave, and yet it's a wave which is not a particle), but whether it matches up neatly or not is beside the crucial point -- the LOI is a tool for map making. It is not a feature of the territory. When we encounter aspects of the physical world that don't line up with Barry's cartoonish view of the universe, it doesn't undermine rationality. We can still reason about the complexities and conundrums (some more than others), and even in the worst case, rationality is not undermined at all, it's just limited -- there are some aspects perhaps of reality that are incomprehensible to us. That in no diminishes the efficacy or utility of reasoning on other matters. Our map is just that -- a map, an approximate description of the territory and possibly a very crude on at that in some areas. It's not a copy of the territory.
Which is where playing the doubt card becomes a fallacy.
Doubt with respect to what? This is confused language, KF. There is no doubting a definition. If you can doubt it, it's not a definition. If it can be doubted, it's a synthetic proposition, and thus not covered by the LOI. Everyone reading this thread should pause and read your post here as a very strong example of the deep confusion on this fundamental concept you are demonstrating. Barry and Stephen are no better off than you, but this example is good for making the point.
Do you really wish to deny that distinct identity exists or what is much the same reserve a doubt card to play whenever it suits you?
Are you asking about identity as a synthetic proposition or an analytical proposition, KF? Do you understand the difference? As best I can tell, you are in the same boat with Barry and Stephen in thinking like this: 1. I need the LOI as a logical tool for reasoning and thinking about the world. (Analytic) 2. In order to understand the the world, with respect to identity, reality must conform to my concept of the LOI. 3. Ergo, Reality conforms to my understanding of the LOI. Can you see the problem in that? It pushes an axiom into service as a physical principle.
And that is why this cluster of issues is so crucial, it is not just analytic statements, but in this case statements that do bridge to reality and to the world of thought. In ways that have had grave impact across history. KF
You can clutch your pearls all you want on this, it's no skin off my nose. This is a *perfect* example of the confusion of analytic and synthetic propositions. I don't need to call any other witnesses to establish the credentials of my analysis on this problem at work here.eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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Aleta, do you understand the significance of the fatal foundational crack in reasoning itself on today's oh so self-confident and dominant evolutionary materialist scientism? Do you realise that forever after, the record stands at this Mars Hill moment? That is what these threads have shown through revealing the stout resistance to something as simple and undeniable as what pondering a bright red ball on a table would readily show to a twelve year old. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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Aleta, I am simply saying ontology comes before descriptive statement. The accurate description that distinct identity effects a world partition means distinct identity -- say A -- exists, the thing in view A is not to be confounded with the rest of the world (~A), and any x in the world will be in A or else in ~A. These descriptive statements then guide logical thought. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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Aleta, if certain principles are rightly identified as necessary for reasoning, part of this will be that they are relevant to the real world. Do you mean, do you think it possible that you are a victim of grand delusion living in a Plato's cave world of shadow shows? If the latter, what you really mean is at will you pop up the cave world to dismiss what you don't want to hear; that is rational discourse is at an end and ideology takes over. The proper solution to this is that error exists and we may suffer from it, but no system that proposes a grand delusion or such a delusion at will is reasonable. It fails the logical-dynamical coherence and the broader comparative difficulties tests. As is common for such systems they sound clever and devastating until the other edge of the sword swings back and cuts its own throat. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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Interestingly enough, kf writes at 127,
before we ever get to stating that A = A, we have to reckon with the reality of distinct things that are identifiable,
This is interesting because it seems to say that our experience of things in the world precedes our rule about reasoning that A = A. I agree with this - the macroscopic human experience that there are indeed "things" which are clearly distinct from all that they are not, and which retain that identity as they persist in time and space, is the basic starting point for both our logic and our math that starts with counting. Would you agree with this re-phrasing of your point, kf? And would you be able to answer more-or-less just that question without too much repetition of posts you have already made? I'm trying to isolate a few points in order to take the discussion in smaller steps.Aleta
September 12, 2015
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Eigenstate asks a good question:
Let’s just get it out on the table: do you hold that it is logically possible for nature to behave and subsist in ways that are at odds with the tools you rightly identify as necessary and obligatory for reasoning?
However, Eigenstate's phrase "logically possible" perhaps confuses the issue - perhaps it would be better to rephrase the question as
is it possible for nature to behave and subsist in ways that are at odds with the tools you rightly identify as necessary and obligatory for reasoning?
Eigenstate can comment on whether he think my point has any validity or not.Aleta
September 12, 2015
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eigenstate, it is obvious that you do not know the meaning of the word “Identity” as it pertains to the law of identity. Would you like for me to explain it to you? No one here thinks that our definitions affect nature.
I think your problem, and Barry's, is worse. You understand that your definitions *define* nature. Or, to put it another way, that nature can only subsist in accordance with your definitions. Let's just get it out on the table: do you hold that it is logically possible for nature to behave and subsist in ways that are at odds with the tools you rightly identify as necessary and obligatory for reasoning? Give me your answer on that, and that will establish some clear semantics for "identity". The "identity" in "Law of Identity" is conceptual, logical. It pertains to patterns of human thought. This is NOT a physical principle, it is not a natural law, if you prefer that term. Agree?
Meanwhile, don’t try to judge Barry’s methodology by comparing it to my methodology, or vice versa. We are making the same point albeit from a different vantagepoint.
Oh I'm sure you both come at things from a different angle, fine. But clearly, you both are in the same point of confusion/conflation on the question of identity as a logical principle for thinking, versus a physical principle in nature. As I said to to Barry, raised a fundie I understand the confusion. Christians see a unity underneath the analytical tools "God gave us" and the intelligibility of the universe He designed for us. That explains, but doesn't excuse the error. The axiom is just that -- an axiom. We have perfectly no warrant for conflating an logical axiom with a physical principle, religious superstitions notwithstanding.
The funny thing about truth is that it can be explained many ways. Error can be explained only one way because it has no substance worth probing.
What an odd thing to say. Astrology is incorrect in its claims, just like Chrisitanity. But they are both substantial and in wrong in different ways. Doesn't seem germane, here, so won't say more than that. A little touch of surreality at the end of the post never hurt anyone, I guess. ;-)eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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ES, before we ever get to stating that A = A, we have to reckon with the reality of distinct things that are identifiable, which can start with our first undeniable fact, self-aware existence. That is what effects the partition that underlies our recognition W = {A|~A}. It is in reflection of that reality that we accept the ontology that A is, and in being, it is itself and not the other that it is not, ~A. To try to speak, think or write, we depend on distinct identity, it is thus undeniable and undeniably real. The statement A is A, or (A=>A) = 1, is a reflection of that. Now, I also see an echo of yet another classical self-referentially erroneous claim, the ugly unbridgeable gulch between inner and outer worlds. By the 1890's F H Bradley had already spotted the fatal error in this. Namely to assert the unknowability of the external world of things in themselves is self-referential. It is a very strong knowledge claim about that world, and so it refutes itself. A safer step is to start with the undeniable claim, error exists, which implies that knowledge of truth exists. So, while there are errors, there are things that are not. And in particular, some truths about the world are self-evident. Among such are the immediate consequences of distinct identity, LOI, LNC and LEM. When we try to deny such, we undermine rationality itself. Which is where playing the doubt card becomes a fallacy. Do you really wish to deny that distinct identity exists or what is much the same reserve a doubt card to play whenever it suits you? And that is why this cluster of issues is so crucial, it is not just analytic statements, but in this case statements that do bridge to reality and to the world of thought. In ways that have had grave impact across history. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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They are not true (or false) as statements about the extra-mental world.
Again, you agree with me and not LH. Fail 6.
I suspect LH will be willing to weigh in here and clear this up. Clearly, one of us is confused about LH's ideas. I don't think it's me, but stand to be corrected. LH has been arguing about the veridicality of any analytical proposition as a principle that obtains synthetically. He's in the safe spot of defending the idea that we don't have any basis for supposing that the extra-mental world is beholden to our definitions, our analytic postulates. I am not holding my breath, but if you re-read the thread with the understanding that he thought you were up to speed on definitions vs. physical principles, the whole exchange makes sense. I feel quite comfortable in understanding LH's comments, and frustrations if I just insert the idea that he either (over)graciously has overlooked your problem here, or possibly just didn't see the fail at that level.
To confuse these is to confuse definitions (analytic) with real word dynamics (synthetic).
Which is exactly what LH has done. But you say you agree with him. All well. That’s seven fails, and we are still in your opening.
OK, we'll let Learned Hand adjudicate this, and tell us if he doubts definitions, or supposes that a definition can be false as a definition. It's good to remember that you are the one who went all in on refuting quantum mechanics based on the LOI. Yes, that was you, all in on the "absurdity" of of synthetic knowledge in light of it's problematic nature for simplistic definitions you clear understand to be binding on all of nature, suborning all of physics down to the behavior of each fermion and boson. You have perhaps just now happened upon this crucial distinction, but your posting history, again, shows your error on this over and over and over...
As soon as Barry or others want to insist on A=A as a synthetic “law”, as a scientific or physical principle, they have gone off the reservation, and do not have a leg to stand on.
Fortunately, I have never insisted that an analytic proposition is a synthetic proposition. Fail 10. You really should go back and re-read what I’ve written. This time try reading for comprehension.
So, can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time? Ring a bell? We can go through that, carefully, and show the falsehood of what you claim here. Or were arguing for an alternate scientific model that refuted particle/wave duality or superposition? Not. Your LOI-as-synthetic-knowledge fail is all over those threads. Go have a look before you respond more, and save yourself some embarrassment.
Nature is not beholden to our definitions. We can define terms and deploy axioms for reasoning all we like, but the extra-mental world is under no obligation to comply. As it happens, the physical world a macro-scales does have a consistent and regular nature that makes many of our foundational concepts, including LOI, useful, successful in developing and refining (synthetic) knowledge.
False. In fact rationality itself and science that presupposes rationally comprehensible universe are both impossible if the law of identity is not true both epistemologically and ontologically. This is obvious. Your rejection of this obvious truth is, where are we now, Fail 11.
No, science only presupposes that nature behaves in ways that are comprehensible such that we might build models that reify that comprehension. There's no presupposition in science that nature is exhaustively comprehensible. Instead, it simply acknowledges a truism: that we will only comprehend what we are capable of comprehending in nature, and makes efforts to see what dynamics and characteristics of nature are comprehensible. This does not and cannot entail exhaustive intelligibility. And this is what many discoveries in modern science show - we can build fantastically accurate models, but some aspects that we include in the model are fundamentally incomprehensible to us. We can make precise, novel predictions, but yet cannot really grasp superposition or particle/wave duality. That is reasoning in action. We reason about what we can comprehend and what remains incomprehensible. Some aspects of nature remain incomprehensible. And by that, I don't mean just "unknown" or undiscovered, but rather that they defy resolution in terms of our otherwise very handing tools for thinking about the world.
Whoops. That’s just not compatible with the knowledge and experience we have, now. A=A remains as unassailable as an analytic concept as every. Axioms cannot be assailed. But the conflation of analytic and synthetic, which Barry has made a trusty habit in his posts,
Fail 12. Unless we count this and Fail 3 and this one as a single fail. LH can weigh in on whether he thinks a definition he creates can be doubted. Maybe you will revisit the question of whether Jupiter can exist/not-exist as a question that is -- wait for it -- self-evidently resolved by the LOI. Is extra-mental world beholden to your analytical concept of the LOI, Barry?
puts one square at odds with our experiences with the real world. More, um, agile thinkers can step back a bit and, for instance, apply the LOT even to particle/wave duality, by observing that such a duality subsists in a way still excludes other modes of being, and thereby complies with A=A at a higher level of description, even though it confounds the country bumpkin way of thinking about the LOI.
I agree that the LOI applies at every level of investigation. You suggest I don’t. Fail 13.
You see, the way you put this just establishes your confusion on the analytic/synthetic distinction. If you understand the concept -- you type in the words in the keyboard, but you don't have understanding of the concepts behind them -- you would not say the "LOI applies at every level of investigation". LOI is a reasoning tool, it's not a natural principle. We "apply" our thinking skills at every level of description, that IN NO WAY binds nature to behave in accordance with our axioms, or against them. The map is not the territory. Your error is more broad: the map does not define the territory. The territory is what it is, our map is a best-effort description of the territory (best effort for some more than others, it seems). Lest you think I'm interested in the merits of particle/wave duality as science, here, I'm not. Doesn't matter either way how one comes down on that matter. Instead, I'm focusing on the problem of supposing the LOI confines or determines how nature behaves, and/or whether nature is obligated to be comprehensible or "rational" in a hillbilly sense of the term. I'm not looking for you to get up to speed on the science, but rather to recognize the error seeing the LOI -- an indispensable analytical tool -- as a plenopotentiary metaphysic, as a definition that commands reality to conform to it, necessarily. Happily, science can demonstrate great progress in building models that show the intelligibilty of nature in many respects. We use the LOI to great effect there, ubiquitously. But it's only successful because it works with those aspects of nature. If there aspects of nature that don't fit neatly with exclusionary principles like the LOI, whaddya gonna due, sue nature for relief? Observing that we use the LOI to think about the world is trivial. It doesn't tell us a think about the real world, other than we are able to embark on the project of thinking about the world via the LOI (and other tools). If you're nodding and thinking "I agree", well, you have a whole lot of posts to recant. You've cast your lot with the LOI as normative, as prescriptive, over and over and over. I get that. I was raised to think like that, too. I even had the wonderful opportunity to get "pre-suppositionalist apologetics" training at the intellectual nadir of my upbringing, and if you are familiar with that nonsense, you will understand that "right reason" is not just (or even) an axiom, it's an endowment from God, and therefore trustworthy to underwrite everything else, and worthy of subjecting all else to it. A kind of de fide grant of authority over all of reality. Reality really is beholden to human reasoning, because God gave us our reason, and designed the world so that it could be comprehended with human reasoning, blah, blah, blah... That's problematic in itself, but for our purposes here, it confounds any non-trivial examination of the physical world. If you suppose the world is designed from the ground up to conform neatly to your concept of the LOI, you're just going to... well, you're going to post like you do, putting your fingers in your ears, when confronted with strange and well-demonstrated aspects of reality that defy such neat categorization and simplistic thinking.eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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to KF, re 122: Yes, I read 111. I've agreed several times with your point that "First, in thinking, arguing and speaking we must recognise and respect distinct identities if we are to be sound." I'm not sure why you directed me there again.Aleta
September 12, 2015
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