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Nihilism at TSZ

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Over at The Skeptical Zone Learned Hand (who goes by “Colin” there) has been psychoanalyzing me.  I’m a wall builder don’t you know:

I think one major motivator of the “you’re a liar!” style of debate they’ve adopted is community identification. I’ve been thinking of this as building a wall. The point of the conversation is largely, not entirely, to show that “we think like this:” and “they think like that:”, or more pointedly, “look how stupid and ugly they are.” It makes it very easy to avoid questioning beliefs, because we cling particularly to those notions that separate us from them. It identifies and strengthens the community of us by redefining it in opposition to the ugliness and stupidity of them. And once that wall is built, it’s extremely hard to dismantle. Why on earth would you stop and seriously consider something a stupid and dishonest person says? And what would it say about you if you agreed with them? The wall exists to separate.

LH has been drinking deeply from the postmodern Kool-Aid, and it has led him to say some staggeringly stupid things.  Remember, this is the guy who says he does not believe that the law of identity (A=A) is infallibly true.  I pointed out to him that such a claim is absurd, self-defeating and incoherent and only an idiot or a liar would assert it.  Instead of withdrawing his idiotic claim, he doubles down and asserts that the only reason I refuse to countenance it is because I want to build a wall to insulate myself from the those who don’t think like me so that I can “cling” to the notion that A always and without exception in all possible universes equals A.

It beggars belief.  I will not bother to defend the self-evident truth of the law of identity.  Why?  Robert L. Kocher tells us why:

It is a fact of life that you cannot win an argument with someone who is not sane. Sane bystanders may come to agree with your presentation, but you have no way of convincing someone who is not sane of anything. . . suppose that I say that the red pen I happen to have in my hand at this moment is a red pen. Further suppose that someone else says it is not a red pen, but is instead a flower pot, or a suitcase or a TV set. As a practical matter, I am unable to refute the assertion that what I am holding in my hand is not a flower pot. That does not mean that I’m incorrect when I say that it is a red pen. Nor does it mean that I am intellectually weaker than the other person who is arguing that it is not a red pen. Nor does it mean that his assertion that it is not a red pen is correct.

It means that I have no stronger argument than the red pen being in my hand. There is no stronger argument possible than the simple fact of the red pen being in my hand. No stronger refutation of the other person’s arguments is possible. At some point there must be agreement on what constitutes basic reality.

Similarly to Kocher’s red pen, I have no greater argument that A=A than the self-evident fact that A=A.

No, the purpose of this post is not to refute Learned Hand, because to any reasonable observer Learned Hand’s insanity is self-refuting.  Instead, I want to consider why anyone would say such an idiotic thing.  He must know he is making a fool of himself, right?  No actually; exactly the opposite is true.  Kocher again:

It has become common for people who routinely engage in chronic psychotic levels of denial to consider themselves as being mental powerhouses, and to be considered by others as being mental powerhouses, because no one can break through their irrationality. This is often supported by a self-referencing congratulatory inner voice which says, “(guffaw) He REALLY didn’t have an answer for that one!” And they are correct. He didn’t have an answer.

Far from acknowledging the manifest folly of his statements, LH revels in it.  Only wall building rubes like Barry believe that A=A is infallibly, necessarily true; hyper-sophisticated intellectuals like myself are not so narrow minded.

So why do people like LH make such staggeringly stupid, borderline psychotic claims?  Well, LH feels free to psychoanalyze me, and I will now return the favor.  LH rejects the concept of absolute and infallible truth, because absolute and infallible truth acts as a check on his autonomous will.  If A always equals A, then maybe, just maybe, it is also always evil to kill little boys and girls, chop them into pieces and sell the pieces.  I assure you that it is no coincidence that LH rejects both assertions.  Because the rejection of any potential limit on LH’s autonomous will drives the nihilistic antinomianism at the core of his worldview.

Comments
As usual, you start off your argument by contradicting yourself. You say you agree with LH, and then you say A=A is not dubitable. But that is exactly what LH is asserting. Fail 1.
Learned Hand can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that his doubt is not (and he'd agree cannot be) aimed at a definition. Rather, Learned Hand has been arguing for the epistemic limitations of mapping the LOI over to a "synthetic axiom", an unassailable principle about nature, about the extra-mental world. In that, he puts the case mildly, if anything, and has basically overlooked your continued conflation and equivocation on knowledge throughout. I think he's ignored your obvious blunders to focus on finer points that are difficult to even address in a conversation with someone who thinks an analytical proposition determines how the extra-mental world behaves, just because it's an analytical proposition.
That’s the nature of a tautology. It’s prescriptive, it’s true by definition, and it’s indispensable as an analytic process.
True, but again you disagree with LH. Fail 2.
No, LH is free to confirm your idea that he and I disagree, but I'd be surprised to hear that he disagrees. You have a terrible track record of misrepresenting what your critics are saying, and I think here again you've not understood LH's focus on A=A as a proposition of synthetic knowledge. This is not hard to conclude at all if you read him, as he's talking about doubt and fallibility -- these are not traits of definitions or axioms, but epistemic factors in thinking about the extra-mental world. It's quite clear neither your or StephenB have a working knowledge of the difference here, or your would not be using A=A to argue that "Jupiter might not be there" or "I am not Denali" (in Stephen's case). I can go back and inundate you with quotes of your posts from previous threads that demonstrate quite clearly that you do not understand this basic distinction. LH, naively, I suspect, credits you with understanding this, and argues accordingly. His comments are perfectly understandable in response to you if I take as a premise that he supposes you have this basic understanding which you do not. LH, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and you DO in fact suppose that a definition can be "false" as a definition.
Barry (and apparently StephenB and others) only understand the LOI in a crude folk sense,
What would an talk with eigy be without him asserting the “folk” nonsense?
Barry, it's a very charitable characterization, given what you're committed to here in terms of your reasoning and argumentation. You're welcome for the generosity I show in referring to it that way.
If he did, he wouldn’t be using an analytic concept as the “proof” of a synthetic proposition — see Jupiter, Denali, particle/wave duality, etc.
Just exactly the opposite of what I did. Eigy, really, if you are going to criticize me, then you really need to stop misrepresenting my position, which can be easily checked up thread. I am the one who told LH he needed to learn the difference between an analytic proposition (A=A) and a synthetic proposition (particle/wave duality). Now you say I don’t understand that difference. Fail again. That’s three fails and we haven’t gotten past your opening.
Barry, it's pretty clear you know how to google words and get shallow and often humorous "skim-reading" misconceptions from your fake learning. Your reference to analytic/synthetic distinctions above just makes me grin, remembering the "can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time" argument, standing our your confusing the LOI for a synthetic principle of nature. That is, if you meant what you said above, er -- if you actually understood it, you would not have said innumerable things you've said on the subject over the last couple years. Your posting history condemns you here. It's not even close -- you don't understand the distinction. If you did -- even vaguely, you could not have posted and argued what you have over the last long while.
If we are devising tools for thought, creating definitions and axioms for thinking and communicating, they are simply true by definition.
Again, you agree with me and not LH. Fail 4. By the way, aren’t you the one who says that “thinking” is just what the brain does; that you are not conscious under the “folk” conception of that word. What sense is there in a “rule” of thought if there is no free will and thought is wholly determined physical process. Fail 5.
Not in the least relevant here. Happy to follow your distraction here in an another thread, but not interested in the bunny trail here. I've read all of LH's posts on this thread, and I think I'm current with him on the related threads, and I don't see any disagreement. He's free to confirm that he and I disagree. I think what disagreement we have is in the practical benefit of not hammering away at the elephant in the room first -- your conflation problem with definitions and the dynamics of the extra-mental world. He clearly sees benefit in ignoring your difficulties in this area. I see your disability on this question to be pretty much a show-stopper to anything further on the subject. You're not equipped any more than StephenB to engage on the merits of the real world if you can't see the distinction between the LOI as analytic and a tool for thinking and reality not giving a damn what definitions we care to use -- it is what it is, regardless.eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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StephenB writes, "No one here thinks that our definitions affect nature." Good. Also, I would be interested in how you would define "Identity" as it pertains to the law of identity. Kf and I have mentioned how, we have to clarify what has a "distinct identity" in order to use logic in the real world, but it seems to me that an "identity" A is so foundational that one might consider it an undefined term, like "point" in geometry. So, I'd be interested in how you would describe/explain the meaning of A in logic. ThanksAleta
September 12, 2015
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Aleta, kindly cf 111 above: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/nihilism-at-tsz/#comment-579730 KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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What Eigenstate said, and my point all along, although I've gone about expressing it differently - as the difference between logic itself, which is true within its own domain, and applying logic to the real world via a model which must be tested.Aleta
September 12, 2015
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eigenstate
Nature is not beholden to our definitions.
eigenstate, it is obvious that you do not know the meaning of the word "Identity" as it pertains to the law of identity. Would you like for me to explain it to you? No one here thinks that our definitions affect nature. Meanwhile, don't try to judge Barry's methodology by comparing it to my methodology, or vice versa. We are making the same point albeit from a different vantagepoint. The funny thing about truth is that it can be explained many ways. Error can be explained only one way because it has no substance worth probing.StephenB
September 12, 2015
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eigenstate
Stephen B here demonstrates the same confusion in regaling us with — I kid you not — his reasons why he is not Denali. Big cannot be small… gotcha.
eigenstate, I will be happy to help you with your confusion about my alleged confusion if you could humor me by articulating your point..StephenB
September 12, 2015
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@HeKS#107 This series of OPs started with trying to point out that what we end up with are moral problems to solve. Unless one can infallibly identify an infallible source, then infallibly interpret it, how does Barry, or anyone else, have any other recourse other than to conjecture solutions to moral problems, then criticize them? No one has explained how this is possible, in practice. In the same sense, how do you infallibly know anything is indeed an A instead of a B or something else we haven't identified yet? Unless you do, A=A isn't actually going to help you solve problems, in practice. And you're asking why I'm having such "difficulty getting it"? IOW, if criticism really does rest on A=A, but you cannot infallibly identify anything as an A then, by your own foundational "standard" there can be no criticism, knowledge, etc. That's what I mean by holding knowledge and reason hostage. What is the alternative? If you're familiar with epistemology, I'm a Popperian in that we start out with a problem, or for which we conjecture solutions to that problem, then criticize those solution and discard errors we find. That's my "view" on the growth of knowledge. This includes giving up the quest for justificationism. To summarize, with each infallible authority described in each OP, one has had to use reason and criticism to determine when defer to the supposedly infallible authority. Reason always comes first. Regardless if that authoritative sources is God, our senses, or even A=A. A=A is an extremely hard to vary explanation, just as 2+2=4. I know of no good expansions that suggest otherwise, Bad explanations would be along the lines that just some things are liable to be something other than what it is, while others are not, or that some capricious being decides to occasionally break this rule for fun, etc.Popperian
September 12, 2015
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eigenstate
I understand Learned Hand’s point, and agree . . . A=A is infallibly true and not dubitable as an analytic proposition.
As usual, you start off your argument by contradicting yourself. You say you agree with LH, and then you say A=A is not dubitable. But that is exactly what LH is asserting. Fail 1.
That’s the nature of a tautology. It’s prescriptive, it’s true by definition, and it’s indispensable as an analytic process.
True, but again you disagree with LH. Fail 2.
Barry (and apparently StephenB and others) only understand the LOI in a crude folk sense,
What would an talk with eigy be without him asserting the “folk” nonsense?
If he did, he wouldn’t be using an analytic concept as the “proof” of a synthetic proposition — see Jupiter, Denali, particle/wave duality, etc.
Just exactly the opposite of what I did. Eigy, really, if you are going to criticize me, then you really need to stop misrepresenting my position, which can be easily checked up thread. I am the one who told LH he needed to learn the difference between an analytic proposition (A=A) and a synthetic proposition (particle/wave duality). Now you say I don’t understand that difference. Fail again. That’s three fails and we haven’t gotten past your opening.
If we are devising tools for thought, creating definitions and axioms for thinking and communicating, they are simply true by definition.
Again, you agree with me and not LH. Fail 4. By the way, aren't you the one who says that "thinking" is just what the brain does; that you are not conscious under the "folk" conception of that word. What sense is there in a "rule" of thought if there is no free will and thought is wholly determined physical process. Fail 5.
They are not true (or false) as statements about the extra-mental world.
Again, you agree with me and not LH. Fail 6.
To confuse these is to confuse definitions (analytic) with real word dynamics (synthetic).
Which is exactly what LH has done. But you say you agree with him. All well. That’s seven fails, and we are still in your opening.
It’s pointless to insist on A=A being dubitable as an analytic proposition.
Yet LH insist on that very thing, vehemently. And you say you agree with him. Fail 8.
Definitions are not subject to doubt.
Yet LH, with whom you say you agree, doubts them. Fail 9.
As soon as Barry or others want to insist on A=A as a synthetic “law”, as a scientific or physical principle, they have gone off the reservation, and do not have a leg to stand on.
Fortunately, I have never insisted that an analytic proposition is a synthetic proposition. Fail 10. You really should go back and re-read what I’ve written. This time try reading for comprehension.
Nature is not beholden to our definitions. We can define terms and deploy axioms for reasoning all we like, but the extra-mental world is under no obligation to comply. As it happens, the physical world a macro-scales does have a consistent and regular nature that makes many of our foundational concepts, including LOI, useful, successful in developing and refining (synthetic) knowledge.
False. In fact rationality itself and science that presupposes rationally comprehensible universe are both impossible if the law of identity is not true both epistemologically and ontologically. This is obvious. Your rejection of this obvious truth is, where are we now, Fail 11.
Whoops. That’s just not compatible with the knowledge and experience we have, now. A=A remains as unassailable as an analytic concept as every. Axioms cannot be assailed. But the conflation of analytic and synthetic, which Barry has made a trusty habit in his posts,
Fail 12. Unless we count this and Fail 3 and this one as a single fail.
puts one square at odds with our experiences with the real world. More, um, agile thinkers can step back a bit and, for instance, apply the LOT even to particle/wave duality, by observing that such a duality subsists in a way still excludes other modes of being, and thereby complies with A=A at a higher level of description, even though it confounds the country bumpkin way of thinking about the LOI.
I agree that the LOI applies at every level of investigation. You suggest I don’t. Fail 13.
In any case, in reading through this thread, the cringe factor is high,
In reading through your single comment that so far as 13 fails, I could say the same thing.
even for UD, because of the confusion that pervades the LOI-fetishists’ comments, repeatedly using A=A interchangeably as a definition and as a physical principle that is somehow binding on nature because we loves ourselves some definitions, y’all.
Fail 14, already addressed above. Wow Eigy, you have a talent for tightly compacting several falsehoods into a small space. You should consider a career in writing political speeches.Barry Arrington
September 12, 2015
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There's confusion and conflation at work here regarding what A=A represents, epistemically. I get a chuckle reading Barry stumble around the analytic/synthetic distinction, when this is precisely the problematic concept for him. As I recall, Barry was concerned that that Jupiter was somehow at risk of not being Jupiter in a view that wasn't confused about the nature or limits of A-A. Stephen B here demonstrates the same confusion in regaling us with -- I kid you not -- his reasons why he is not Denali. Big cannot be small... gotcha. I understand Learned Hand's point, and agree. But LH, help the brothas out instead of fueling their confusion, eh. A=A is infallibly true and not dubitable as an analytic proposition. That's the nature of a tautology. It's prescriptive, it's true by definition, and it's indispensable as an analytic process. Barry (and apparently StephenB and others) only understand the LOI in a crude folk sense, so this distinction needs to be pointed out again and again. Barry invokes the terms, but he doesn't understand them, or how to apply them. If he did, he wouldn't be using an analytic concept as the "proof" of a synthetic proposition -- see Jupiter, Denali, particle/wave duality, etc. If we are devising tools for thought, creating definitions and axioms for thinking and communicating, they are simply true by definition. They are not true (or false) as statements about the extra-mental world. To confuse these is to confuse definitions (analytic) with real word dynamics (synthetic). It's pointless to insist on A=A being dubitable as an analytic proposition. Definitions are not subject to doubt. Those definitions may be ill-advised for employing for purposes of engaging the real world, but a definition is just a definition. As soon as Barry or others want to insist on A=A as a synthetic "law", as a scientific or physical principle, they have gone off the reservation, and do not have a leg to stand on. Nature is not beholden to our definitions. We can define terms and deploy axioms for reasoning all we like, but the extra-mental world is under no obligation to comply. As it happens, the physical world a macro-scales does have a consistent and regular nature that makes many of our foundational concepts, including LOI, useful, successful in developing and refining (synthetic) knowledge. But these tools are only as useful as they are successful, and for all of pre-modern experience of the world, intuitive folk-philosophy--shot-from-the-hip did not militate against simplistic jumps from analytic A=A to some synthetic analog, that a physical thing is "only one way, to the exclusion of other ways (or modes)". Whoops. That's just not compatible with the knowledge and experience we have, now. A=A remains as unassailable as an analytic concept as every. Axioms cannot be assailed. But the conflation of analytic and synthetic, which Barry has made a trusty habit in his posts, puts one square at odds with our experiences with the real world. More, um, agile thinkers can step back a bit and, for instance, apply the LOT even to particle/wave duality, by observing that such a duality subsists in a way still excludes other modes of being, and thereby complies with A=A at a higher level of description, even though it confounds the country bumpkin way of thinking about the LOI. In any case, in reading through this thread, the cringe factor is high, even for UD, because of the confusion that pervades the LOI-fetishists' comments, repeatedly using A=A interchangeably as a definition and as a physical principle that is somehow binding on nature because we loves ourselves some definitions, y'all.eigenstate
September 12, 2015
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Mung and kf: you are mis-interpreting my question. A = A is fundamental, and it assumes/establishes distinct identity as a fundamental logical property. I'm not questioning that in the least bit. I also understand its use in mathematics. What I can't think of is a place in a chain or real-world reasoning where add a step that says A = A. Its so basic that it is not a step in a chain of reasoning as much as an underlying agreement that the things we are talking about retain their identity throughout the argument.Aleta
September 12, 2015
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@william j murray One can have a feeling of emptiness, and a feeling to be utterly destroyed. Certainly I do not get the impression my existence is acknowledged by materialists, when they refer to my body, brain, some psychological mechanisms at work in my mind, environmental influences, genetic influences, whatever. They seem to miss the point of acknowledging who I am as being the owner of my decisions. In fact they make a point of it to go out of their way to expressly not acknowledge the existence of my soul.mohammadnursyamsu
September 12, 2015
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One wonders if LH considers the certainty of the statement "I exist" fallible.William J Murray
September 12, 2015
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headlined: https://uncommondescent.com/selective-hyperskepticism/a-a-is-it-important/#comment-579732kairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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Aleta,
100: >>can anyone give an example of a logical argument that uses A = A to help advance the argument? Examples from math are easy. In solving 2x – 5 = 17, students write 5 = 5 in order to “add 5 to both sides of the equation”, invoking a principle from Euclid that “if equals are added to equals, then the wholes are equal.” But is there any example of a use of A = A in a logical chain of reasoning about the real world that adds anything to the argument? A = A is true, but outside of pure logic, is it ever useful?>> 103: >>we use such things as the transitive property, logical conditionals, the law of the excluded middle, etc., all the time. However, A = A, it seems to me, doesn’t advance any argument, so I’m thinking it’s not used in real-world chains of reasoning as opposed to its uses in math such as I mentioned.>>
First, in thinking, arguing and speaking we must recognise and respect distinct identities if we are to be sound. Echoing Aristotle, truth says of what is [A], that it is [A = A], and of what is not [~A] that it is not [~A != A]. That immediately brings to bear all three laws: identity is recognised, antithesis between a thing and not the thing is respected, dichotomy is understood. And, the three are inseparable. We recognise distinct identity A, and the world partition:
W, the world A in W, a distinct thing ~A in W, what is not that thing W = {A|~A}, partition that exhausts W LOI: (A=>A) = 1, where in this case single implication entails equivalence. LNC: (A AND ~A) = 0 LEM: x in W => x is in A or else in ~A due to the partition
In very practical terms, many issues hinge on recognising that a distinct identity pivots on core characteristics so that relabelling not-a-thing as though it were the thing fails. Likewise, relabelling a thing as though it were not the thing, fails too. Lincoln's folksy example of relabelling the tail of a sheep a "leg" and insisting that a sheep must now be reckoned as having five legs is aptly illustrative of the problem. And, it speaks quite directly to the situation of policy making, liberty and justice and war. Notice his second inaugural:
AT this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then a statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself, and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured. On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came. One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
A big part of the run-up to the US civil war of the 1860's pivoted on refusing to recognise that a black man is just as much a man as any other and so if by endowment of the Creator there is an unalienable right to life, liberty and pursuit untrammelled of happiness/ purpose one is here for, then surely a black descriptive modifier does not alter the fact that a man is a man. And if more was needed, many a white man fathered children upon a black slave woman; often under conditions where because of her enslaved status she had no recourse of refusal and no respect of being wife or even concubine. The leg of a sheep is a leg, the tail of a sheep hath not the characteristics and cannot be a leg. So, if a black enslaved woman can have fertile children when her white massa's son or massa himself takes a fancy to her, even under circumstances tantamount to rape, that already shows that we are "of one blood" . . . one common kind of life as "the life of the flesh is in the blood." (That ties to Ac 17, in the same scriptures read by all.) Refusal to recognise and respect distinct identity (here, held in common by whites and blacks) was the pivot of what led to war. In a context where a key argument for union in the Federalist Papers was that union was the best means of securing the peace, the common good and a prosperous future. As the history of regional divisions, alienation and wars in Europe so clearly showed. In our day, it is highly arguable that refusal to recognise that the unborn child is as we all once were and at minimum should have the benefit of doubts is an engine driving the worst holocaust in human history, which in turn enmeshes the public, parliaments, courts, police and more across our whole civilisation in the terrible blinding and benumbing power of bloodguilt. As one direct consequence, in the leading country of our civilisation, leadership from the party of mass abortion is implicated in many other things and the other party on average is half-hearted. Some kinds go not out save by scripture so let me put it this way: they say peace, peace, when there is no peace. In such a context where there is a habit of refusal to acknowledge that the right hand side restates what is on the left hand side . . . what equals means . . . we now face a policy of enabling the leading terrorism sponsoring nation in the world in its determination to acquire nuclear weapons as the effective means of intended genocide. Linked to that there is a refusal to acknowledge that per foundational history, texts and policy sustained for 1400 years, there has been a major militarily backed or implemented IslamIST expansionism. Indeed, I find it interesting in a saddening, sobering way, how -- while the media are ever so eager to pounce on all sorts of convenient stories -- there has been persistent refusal to have a sustained focus on things like the Muslim Brotherhood's 100 year global conquest plan (which I first found online on Sept 11 2001, along with recipes for building nukes when I sought to understand what was going on), or the papers documenting the settlement-jihad strategy (mass immigration of the violently hostile is invasion), and more. So, I find that being willing to recognise distinct identity and acknowledge that a certain implement with a long handle and a wide thin blade at one end shaped for digging into and lifting the soil is a spade is pivotal. In short, are we willing to acknowledge that a spade is indeed a spade? Scripture, again, from 2700 years ago:
Isa 5:18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, who draw sin as with cart ropes, 19 who say: “Let him be quick, let him speed his work that we may see it; let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near, and let it come, that we may know it!” 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight! 22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, 23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! 24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against his people, and he stretched out his hand against them and struck them, and the mountains quaked; and their corpses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger has not turned away, and his hand is stretched out still. 26 He will raise a signal for nations far away, and whistle for them from the ends of the earth; and behold, quickly, speedily they come! 27 None is weary, none stumbles, none slumbers or sleeps, not a waistband is loose, not a sandal strap broken; 28 their arrows are sharp, all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs seem like flint, and their wheels like the whirlwind. 29 Their roaring is like a lion, like young lions they roar; they growl and seize their prey; they carry it off, and none can rescue. 30 They will growl over it on that day, like the growling of the sea. And if one looks to the land, behold, darkness and distress; and the light is darkened by its clouds.
The price for apostasy and twisting truth into falsity, calling darkness light and light darkness is destructive defeat by way of fatally weakening oneself through marches of folly that "draw iniquity with cords of falsehood." A is A, A = A. Calling A by its right name and acknowledging its right definition is a first step to wisdom. A sound, thorough and accurate vocabulary or dictionary or encyclopedia -- Wiki[d . . . ]pedia this speaks to you -- is a revolutionary act of courage in an evil day. A is A. The tail of a sheep is not, cannot be a leg. A leg is a leg. It all starts with truthfully acknowledging (or with ill-advised refusal to acknowledge . . .) distinct identity. A = A. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2015
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HeKS:
if you actually understand the Law of Identity, as represented by A=A, then you will notice that you can’t coherently challenge it without your challenge immediately descending into completely meaningless absurdity.
claps Over at TSZ they insist the A on the left represents something different from the A on the right and that the equals sign means equality.Mung
September 11, 2015
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[LH is not absolutely certain that he is not Mount Everest].
Coming up with outlandish scenarios seems designed to make me think, “Why that’s absurd!
Yes, I admit I was kind of hoping that it would turn on the light for you.
How do you know (a) that you can be infallibly correct, and (b) when you are infallibly correct? And do you agree with Barry’s position here?
[a] Let me call on my own example. I am infallibly certain that I am not Mount Everest for thousands of reasons. I will list only four: First, Mount Everest is very big and I am very small by comparison. Big cannot also be small. Second, Mount Everest is thousands of miles away from me, so I can't be where I am and also at that location. "There" cannot also be "here." Third, Mount Everest is inorganic matter that cannot think; I am matter and spirit with the faculty of intellect. Non intelligence cannot also be intelligence. Fourth, and most important, I cannot be what I am and also be something else. A cannot also be B. [b] I am infallibly correct when I acknowledge the first principles of right reason. On all other things, I am fallible. I could not even detect my own fallibility except in the context of infallibly certain first principles, just as I could not detect my errors in reasoning except in the context of reason's infallible rules. If there is no such thing as perfection, then there can be no such thing as a mistake. If there is no such thing as a standard of truth, then there can be no such thing as an error that violates that standard. [c] Yes, I agree fully with Barry. Also, I hold that the Law of Identity is the ontological component of the psychological law of non-contradiction. Both are infallibly true and inseparable. The former is the logic of reality and nature, the latter is the logic of mind and thought, each perfectly corresponding to the other.StephenB
September 11, 2015
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@LH #104,
And, do you agree with the barebones position Barry has begrudgingly and gracelessly offered up? He seems to say that he can: A) Infallibly know that analytic propositions are amenable to infallible knowledge; B) Infallibly discriminate, in at least some instances, between analytic and synthetic propositions; and C) Infallibly tell that a specific analytic proposition is infallibly true.
I really don't know where your head is at with this stuff, except that you just seem not to understand these concepts. An analytic proposition is one that is true BY DEFINITION. For example, the statement "all bachelors are unmarried" is an analytic proposition. It is necessarily and infallibly true because it is true by definition. The concept of "unmarried" is included in the concept of "bachelor" by definition. In order to be a bachelor, one must be unmarried. When you understand the statement, you understand that it cannot possibly be false. The only way you can try to make it false is by arbitrarily changing the meaning of one or both of the words, but then it would stop being an analytic proposition, and you would know for a fact that it was no longer an analytic proposition because you would see that it is no longer necessarily true by definition. So, with your A, B and C above... A) Yes, Barry can infallibly know that analytic propositions are amenable to infallible knowledge, because they are true by definition, which makes it impossible for them to be false. B) Yes, Barry can infallibly discriminate between analytic and synthetic propositions in any case where he can understand the proposition in question, since that will allow him to determine whether or not the predicate is included in the subject. If it is, it's an analytic proposition. If it's not, then it's not. C) Yes, Barry can infallibly tell that a particular analytic proposition is true when it has been identified as such, because all analytic propositions are necessarily true by definition.HeKS
September 11, 2015
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@Popperian #101, It seems to be a trend with you that words lose meaning.
@HeKS#56
I’m familiar with your views on epistemology, but I haven’t confused anything. As I pointed out in my post, when it comes to the foundational laws of logic, you don’t need to outright deny that they are true in order to uproot reason. All you need to do is assert that we should operate under an ongoing doubt that they are true. In other words, all one needs to do to burn down the universe of reason is say, “I have no good explanation for why that fundamental rule of logic would be false, and I can’t conceive of any circumstance under which it might be false, but we should all continue to hold to the view that it could very well be false.”
Yet, your response seems to suggest you are confused. To take an idea on board for the purpose of criticism requires one to take it seriously, as if they were true in reality. If you don’t take an idea seriously, along with the rest of our current, best explanations for how the world works, then it’s unclear how we can hope to make progress.
First of all, what is the "idea" here to be taken on board and taken seriously? Do you mean the idea that A=A, or the idea of the criticism that maybe it's untrue that A=A? The only thing I'm confused about is how you think your comment relates to what I said. And, by the way, when I say this...
As I pointed out in my post, when it comes to the foundational laws of logic, you don’t need to outright deny that they are true in order to uproot reason. All you need to do is assert that we should operate under an ongoing doubt that they are true.
... can you figure out what the key word is there? Let me help you:
As I pointed out in my post, when it comes to the foundational laws of logic, you don’t need to outright deny that they are true in order to uproot reason. All you need to do is assert that we should operate under an ONGOING doubt that they are true.
It's not that you aren't allowed to consider doubting them. It's that you can't operate under the ONGOING assumption that they could very well be wrong without destroying (for yourself) any foundation for reason or argument.
As soon as we adopt the ongoing position that the very basic principles of right reason may very well be wrong, we have necessarily abandoned the bonds of reason itself, and we give ourselves an excuse to deny any conclusion we don’t like, no matter how sound, on the grounds that logic and reason themselves may be nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
Again, you seem to be confused. You’re the one abandoning reason. Picking some arbitrary or dogmatic point to claim “here! I believe!” puts an arbitrary limit on criticism and reason. Doing so gives yourself an excuse to ignore criticism you do not like, on the grounds that if we do not stop somewhere, we will be left with an infinite regress. IOW, the very idea that there are different kinds of beliefs entrenches the idea that there are ideas that we cannot criticize.
I'm not sure why you don't seem to be getting this. First of all, just like Learned Hand, you seem to be confusing the fundamental rules of logic with properly basic beliefs. Second, it's not that anybody is saying, "Wait! Stop there! This is some complex proposition that we must believe and have faith in and it is not open to challenge." That's not what's going on here. Even in the case of properly basic beliefs I'm not claiming that, as I've explained to you before. But what we're dealing with here is a self-evidently true basic rule of logic. And nobody is saying that you're not allowed to attempt to criticize it because we must simply all put faith in it. What we're saying to you and Learned Hand is that if you actually understand the Law of Identity, as represented by A=A, then you will notice that you can't coherently challenge it without your challenge immediately descending into completely meaningless absurdity. The possibility of an infinite regress is not the issue here. The issue is simply basic coherence.
No, you miss the point. You can attempt to criticize a foundational view and see whether or not you are able to do so successfully, but when you realize that you are not only unable to successfully criticize the proposition but that your very criticism becomes self-defeating, incoherent and absurd because it relies on the truth of the very thing you’re criticizing, then it becomes madness to hold to the position that the proposition ought to be viewed as being subject to ongoing doubt.
The assumption that it relies on the truth in a foundational manner is the point. The solution is to abandon the quest for positive justification all together and settle for critical preference for one option from a number of others. And to do so in the light of critical arguments, evidence and tests, collected and devised specifically to test those options. Yes, this is in conflict with the idea that beliefs must be justified by an appeal to an authority of some kind, generally some source, and this justification, or the lack ether off, is what makes the belief rational, or not rational. Experience, for example, is one such authority. God is yet another.
You're really not getting this. You need to stop trying to sell your epistemological philosophy and actually think for a moment. That bit that I bolded in your comment above ... it's an example of what I mean when I say that words lose all meaning with you. If the Law of Identity (or any of the other basic rules of logic) is false, then the bolded statement is literally impossible. You are proposing using a methodology to criticize a basic rule of logic where the methodology itself relies on that basic rule of logic being true. Again, as I've said, rational criticism or argument of any sort is utterly impossible if the basic rules of logic do not hold, so how exactly do you propose to meaningfully criticize the truth of the basic rules of logic without first accepting that those basic rules of logic are true? You must assume them to be true in order to attempt to undermine their truth, and if you somehow manage to magically succeed in undermining their truth, you necessarily undercut the validity of your argument against them. And as for the article on Fallibilism that you quote from ... it necessarily assumes the validity of the basic rules of logic. If it didn't, nothing that it suggests would even be possible. Have you ever actually found any article promoting Fallibilism in which people are encouraged to nurture an ongoing doubt about the validity of the basic rules of logic themselves?HeKS
September 11, 2015
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Aleta: Mung, I’m talking about a link in a serious chain of reasoning about some aspect of the world. Me too! You think physicists don't rely on the law of identity? You think scientists don't rely on the law of non-contradiction? Aleta: ...so I’m thinking it’s not used in real-world chains of reasoning as opposed to its uses in math such as I mentioned. I'm confused. I offered an example of how you could test this claim. Did you try it? Want me to suggest another experiment? What would would it even mean to reason about some aspect of the real world absent the law of identity? What, exactly, would you be reasoning about?Mung
September 11, 2015
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LH: "If you ever feel the need to articulate a positive argument, I’d be interested in hearing it . . ." said the guy who is not certain he is not Mount Everest. LH, does it make you feel all super-duper sophisticated and intellectual when you say damn fool idiot things like that. It shouldn't.Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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BA,
Where? Where can I read your position?
*Sigh*
Another conversation killed for the sake of the wall. If you ever feel the need to articulate a positive argument, I’d be interested in hearing it. SB, Can you be absolutely certain that you are not Mount Everest? Can you be absolutely certain that anyone who says that you are is in error? Please explain your answers as clearly as you can. No, and no. Obviously I don’t think I’m Mount Everest, and if someone said that I was, it wouldn’t even cross my mind that they could be right. But there are people who claim that all of existence, from me to mountains, is just an illusion—that everything that exists is all part of the same unitary thought. I think that’s bonkers, but how could I infallibly prove that it’s wrong? And if it’s not, hey, I’d be Mt Everest, or Everest would be me, or we’d both be some hippie’s idle notion. Coming up with outlandish scenarios seems designed to make me think, “Why that’s absurd! I could never think that, so I must be absolutely certain that it’s not true.” It’s a more positive version of BA screaming “HOLOCAUST!!!” and hoping people will mistake it for an argument or an original thought. But it doesn’t get at the underlying question I have. How can you know that your position, any position, is infallibly correct? I keep asking this, and keep getting nothing but increasingly panicky handwaving in response. You made a solid, good-faith answer to respond, but your responses didn’t show how we arrive at infallibility—they assumed that we have it. (Obviously only in a limited sense, I realize no one is claiming to be absolutely infallible in every way.) So, how do you know (a) that you can be infallibly correct, and (b) when you are infallibly correct? And, do you agree with the barebones position Barry has begrudgingly and gracelessly offered up? He seems to say that he can: A) Infallibly know that analytic propositions are amenable to infallible knowledge; B) Infallibly discriminate, in at least some instances, between analytic and synthetic propositions; and C) Infallibly tell that a specific analytic proposition is infallibly true. I ask because you seem willing and able to have a conversation about ideas, and I’d like to explore these. So, three questions, when and if you have time: How do you know (a) that you can be infallibly correct, and (b) when you are infallibly correct? And do you agree with Barry’s position here?Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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Mung, I'm talking about a link in a serious chain of reasoning about some aspect of the world. For instance, we use such things as the transitive property, logical conditionals, the law of the excluded middle, etc., all the time. However, A = A, it seems to me, doesn't advance any argument, so I'm thinking it's not used in real-world chains of reasoning as opposed to its uses in math such as I mentioned.Aleta
September 11, 2015
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Aleta: My question now is this: can anyone give an example of a logical argument that uses A = A to help advance the argument? What do you mean? You could devise an experiment. Go to the grocery store and try to convince them you are buying cheese and not bacon when they are scanning the item labeled BACON. You could even try changing the labels and insisting it's cheese and not bacon.Mung
September 11, 2015
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@HeKS#56
I’m familiar with your views on epistemology, but I haven’t confused anything. As I pointed out in my post, when it comes to the foundational laws of logic, you don’t need to outright deny that they are true in order to uproot reason. All you need to do is assert that we should operate under an ongoing doubt that they are true. In other words, all one needs to do to burn down the universe of reason is say, “I have no good explanation for why that fundamental rule of logic would be false, and I can’t conceive of any circumstance under which it might be false, but we should all continue to hold to the view that it could very well be false.”
Yet, your response seems to suggest you are confused. To take an idea on board for the purpose of criticism requires one to take it seriously, as if they were true in reality. If you don't take an idea seriously, along with the rest of our current, best explanations for how the world works, then it's unclear how we can hope to make progress.
As soon as we adopt the ongoing position that the very basic principles of right reason may very well be wrong, we have necessarily abandoned the bonds of reason itself, and we give ourselves an excuse to deny any conclusion we don’t like, no matter how sound, on the grounds that logic and reason themselves may be nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
Again, you seem to be confused. You're the one abandoning reason. Picking some arbitrary or dogmatic point to claim "here! I believe!" puts an arbitrary limit on criticism and reason. Doing so gives yourself an excuse to ignore criticism you do not like, on the grounds that if we do not stop somewhere, we will be left with an infinite regress. IOW, the very idea that there are different kinds of beliefs entrenches the idea that there are ideas that we cannot criticize.
No, you miss the point. You can attempt to criticize a foundational view and see whether or not you are able to do so successfully, but when you realize that you are not only unable to successfully criticize the proposition but that your very criticism becomes self-defeating, incoherent and absurd because it relies on the truth of the very thing you’re criticizing, then it becomes madness to hold to the position that the proposition ought to be viewed as being subject to ongoing doubt.
The assumption that it relies on the truth in a foundational manner is the point. The solution is to abandon the quest for positive justification all together and settle for critical preference for one option from a number of others. And to do so in the light of critical arguments, evidence and tests, collected and devised specifically to test those options. Yes, this is in conflict with the idea that beliefs must be justified by an appeal to an authority of some kind, generally some source, and this justification, or the lack ether off, is what makes the belief rational, or not rational. Experience, for example, is one such authority. God is yet another.
No, I’m not presenting a false dichotomy. Nor am I justifying Nihilism. But I am pointing out that holding to the position that the basic rules of logic should be viewed as subject to ongoing doubt does lead to Nihilism. I reject Nihilism, just as I reject the position that I’m saying leads to it.
You're assuming I must ether agree with you or be a disappointed justificationist, which I'm not. From this article on Fallibilism....
We used to think that there was a way to organize ourselves that would minimize errors. This is an infallibilist chimera that has been part of every tyranny since time immemorial, from the “divine right of kings” to centralized economic planning. And it is implemented by many patterns of thought that protect misconceptions in individual minds, making someone blind to evidence that he isn’t Napoleon, or making the scientific crank reinterpret peer review as a conspiracy to keep falsehoods in place. Popper’s answer is: We can hope to detect and eliminate error if we set up traditions of criticism—substantive criticism, directed at the content of ideas, not their sources, and directed at whether they solve the problems that they purport to solve. Here is another apparent paradox, for a tradition is a set of ideas that stay the same, while criticism is an attempt to change ideas. But there is no contradiction. Our systems of checks and balances are steeped in traditions—such as freedom of speech and of the press, elections, and parliamentary procedures, the values behind concepts of contract and of tort—that survive not because they are deferred to but precisely because they are not: They themselves are continually criticized, and either survive criticism (which allows them to be adopted without deference) or are improved (for example, when the franchise is extended, or slavery abolished). Democracy, in this conception, is not a system for enforcing obedience to the authority of the majority. In the bigger picture, it is a mechanism for promoting the creation of consent, by creating objectively better ideas, by eliminating errors from existing ones. “Our whole problem,” said the physicist John Wheeler, “is to make the mistakes as fast as possible.” This liberating thought is more obviously true in theoretical physics than in situations where mistakes hurt. A mistake in a military operation, or a surgical operation, can kill. But that only means that whenever possible we should make the mistakes in theory, or in the laboratory; we should “let our theories die in our place,” as Popper put it. But when the enemy is at the gates, or the patient is dying, one cannot confine oneself to theory. We should abjure the traditional totalitarian assumption, still lurking in almost every educational system, that every mistake is the result of wrongdoing or stupidity. For that implies that everyone other than the stupid and the wrongdoers is infallible. Headline writers should not call every failed military strike “botched;” courts should not call every medical tragedy malpractice, even if it’s true that they “shouldn’t have happened” in the sense that lessons can be learned to prevent them from happening again. “We are all alike,” as Popper remarked, “in our infinite ignorance.” And this is a good and hopeful thing, for it allows for a future of unbounded improvement. Fallibilism, correctly understood, implies the possibility, not the impossibility, of knowledge, because the very concept of error, if taken seriously, implies that truth exists and can be found. The inherent limitation on human reason, that it can never find solid foundations for ideas, does not constitute any sort of limit on the creation of objective knowledge nor, therefore, on progress. The absence of foundation, whether infallible or probable, is no loss to anyone except tyrants and charlatans, because what the rest of us want from ideas is their content, not their provenance: If your disease has been cured by medical science, and you then become aware that science never proves anything but only disproves theories (and then only tentatively), you do not respond “oh dear, I’ll just have to die, then.” Headline writers should not call every failed military strike “botched,” and courts should not call every medical tragedy malpractice. The theory of knowledge is a tightrope that is the only path from A to B, with a long, hard drop for anyone who steps off on one side into “knowledge is impossible, progress is an illusion” or on the other side into “I must be right, or at least probably right.” Indeed, infallibilism and nihilism are twins. Both fail to understand that mistakes are not only inevitable, they are correctable (fallibly). Which is why they both abhor institutions of substantive criticism and error correction, and denigrate rational thought as useless or fraudulent. They both justify the same tyrannies. They both justify each other.
Popperian
September 11, 2015
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In the "Warrant thread, I think kf and I agreed on two things: 1. A = A is an inviolable, foundational rule of reasoning that is essential for rational thought, and 2. To apply A = A to any real situation, A must represent a "distinct identity." As kf wrote,
Where borders are fuzzy, that simply means clarity of where a distinct identity exists is required. Once such obtains, instantly LOI, LNC and LEM apply.
My question now is this: can anyone give an example of a logical argument that uses A = A to help advance the argument? Examples from math are easy. In solving 2x – 5 = 17, students write 5 = 5 in order to "add 5 to both sides of the equation", invoking a principle from Euclid that "if equals are added to equals, then the wholes are equal." But is there any example of a use of A = A in a logical chain of reasoning about the real world that adds anything to the argument? A = A is true, but outside of pure logic, is it ever useful?Aleta
September 11, 2015
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Aleta states, "First of all, I take studies like that with many grains of salt. One can easily find studies that don’t support that conclusion, and, in my opinion, the whole subject of adequately measuring such things is problematic." Higher suicide rates and younger mortality rates do not lie Aleta. They are brute cold hard facts. Yet, you being in denial of such clear evidence is par for the course for an atheist. Which is all the more funny because you next state: "One might find happiness, and meaning, by living behind rose-colored glasses, shielded from a realistic appraisal of the world" If ANYONE were ever 100% guilty of shielding themselves from "a realistic appraisal of the world" it is atheists. Moreover, if anyone were ever guilty of wearing rose colored glasses to prevent themselves from dealing forthrightly with the direct implications of their worldview it is also atheists. In fact, it is impossible for atheists to live consistently with their stated worldview, and they are forced to steal from theists and 'pretend' that their lives have true meaning and purpose when their atheistic worldview denies any true meaning and purpose exists for anything in the first place. That true meaning and purpose do not exist in the atheistic worldview is especially not surprising to learn since even the concept of 'person' itself is illusory in materialism/atheism. i.e. exactly how is true meaning and purpose to be derived for an illusory person?:
"What you’re doing is simply instantiating a self: the program run by your neurons which you feel is “you.”" Jerry Coyne The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt:,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3 Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: Even materialists often admit that, in practice, it is impossible for humans to live any other way. One philosopher jokes that if people deny free will, then when ordering at a restaurant they should say, "Just bring me whatever the laws of nature have determined I will get." An especially clear example is Galen Strawson, a philosopher who states with great bravado, "The impossibility of free will ... can be proved with complete certainty." Yet in an interview, Strawson admits that, in practice, no one accepts his deterministic view. "To be honest, I can't really accept it myself," he says. "I can't really live with this fact from day to day. Can you, really?",,, In What Science Offers the Humanities, Edward Slingerland, identifies himself as an unabashed materialist and reductionist. Slingerland argues that Darwinian materialism leads logically to the conclusion that humans are robots -- that our sense of having a will or self or consciousness is an illusion. Yet, he admits, it is an illusion we find impossible to shake. No one "can help acting like and at some level really feeling that he or she is free." We are "constitutionally incapable of experiencing ourselves and other conspecifics [humans] as robots." One section in his book is even titled "We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.",,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
bornagain77
September 11, 2015
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Sorry SB, on a date with my wife! Take your break, we'll come back to it later.Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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LH
I don’t absolutely know with perfect certainty that our perceptions are potentially in error. If there’s a way to demonstrate that they aren’t, I’d love to hear it. Your suggestions were the best I’ve heard, but they took infallibility as a prerequisite.)
Recall that we are discussing only our perceptions about self evident truths. All other perceptions are vulnerable to error. Let's try it another way, and then I will take a break soon after.: Can you be absolutely certain that you are not Mount Everest? Can you be absolutely certain that anyone who says that you are is in error? Please explain your answers as clearly as you can.StephenB
September 11, 2015
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LH:
Where? Where can I read your position?
*Sigh*Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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Where? Where can I read your position?Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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