No Bomb After 10 Years

_{Barry Arrington
October 23, 2014

Intelligent Design

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Intelligent Design}

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I have been studying the origins issue for 22 years, and I have been debating the origins issue with literally hundreds of Darwinists for a decade. Here’s a brief report:

I have to admit that when I first started debating the origins issue I did so with some trepidation. After all, there are a lot of highly educated, credentialed, intelligent professionals who say they believe the Darwinian narrative. To tell the truth, when I first started debating origins, I assumed not only that there was a very good chance that I was on the wrong side of the debate, but also that one or more of those highly educated, credentialed, intelligent professionals would come along and drop a science bomb on me that would destroy my naïve belief in ID.

UD has 47,782 registered users. Some of those are duplicates, but it is safe to assume that over 40,000 unique individuals have commented on this site. And I think it is safe to assume also that at least one of those 40,000 individuals is the highly educated, credentialed, intelligent professional who, if they could, would drop a science bomb on me that would destroy my naïve belief in ID.

Ten years later, 40,000 commenters later. No bomb. I’m beginning to think that maybe there isn’t a bomb. Maybe my confidence in ID is not naïve after all. And maybe WJM is right when he condenses the two sides down to:

ID = proposing and employing methodologies for actually doing the math and attempting to find out if natural law + chance is capable of generating new, functional proteins.

Darwinism = blindly assuming that natural law + chance can and did generate all sets of functional proteins because the alternative is ideologically intolerable, and predicating virtually all of their evolutionary storytelling on that baseless assumption.

Comments

keith s's argument in a nutshell, "There is no God because if there were a God I would hate him for allowing evil in the world." where is the logic in that?,,, Evil cannot even exist without an absolute standard of Good that has been departed from! Thus without God their would be no evil for keith s to complain about. i.e. keith s must crawl up into God's lap in order slap him in the face.bornagain77_{November 3, 2014
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Keith s, I understand your frustration and I get your point. Christians do have an annoying habit of contradicting each other and interpreting the Bible differently. It can seem like a lot of wriggle room to someone who believes there is no God. Also I get the same thing when muslims are quoting the holy Quran at me, I just can not help thinking, that's fine if you want to believe that but I am not buying it. So your points are not wasted on me. The real question though is, as discussed on this thread, is there sufficient evidence to believe we are created and designed over what you believe. Now you may want to think that the thoughts in your head are the voice of reason and logic. I would say though that it actually the voice of pride against God.DillyGill_{November 3, 2014
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Unguided evolution couldn't even explain a simple leaf on a tree. And since Keith doesn't even have a theory of evolution, we won't have to worry about him being able to explain this.phoodoo_{November 3, 2014
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keith s, the joke that keeps on giving...Joe_{November 3, 2014
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If you are unable to explain this Keith S using unguided evolution, the home run is not yours.......Andre_{November 3, 2014
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So the question remains How did unguided evolution do this? A Stability control system with additional backup stability control systems...... Unguided evolution did it Keith S? Not a chance in our universe......Andre_{November 3, 2014
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How about this one Keith S? https://www.weizmann.ac.il/molgen/members/Kimchi/images/research_figures/6_5_12/newFig2.jpg Please show us or give us a reasonable explanation on how unguided processes built this? Please Keith SAndre_{November 3, 2014
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So Keith S needs to explain this; http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/v12/n1/images_article/nrmicro3136-f2.jpg Good luck Keith S!Andre_{November 3, 2014
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Keith S Your bomb did not even have any explosives in it, unless you can show how an unguided process created a guided process to prevent unguided processes from happening you have nothing.... The fact that you have failed to even try and address the issue makes shows to onlookers that you really have nothing..... All you have is your belief system. You can not show in any way how unguided process could ever claim to build stability control systems. You accept it by faith, not by evidence. Seriously address the issue before you declare yourself a victor on anything!Andre_{November 3, 2014
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With 1600 comments in this thread, now is a good time to pause and take stock. Barry started things off with this:
To tell the truth, when I first started debating origins, I assumed not only that there was a very good chance that I was on the wrong side of the debate, but also that one or more of those highly educated, credentialed, intelligent professionals would come along and drop a science bomb on me that would destroy my naïve belief in ID... And I think it is safe to assume also that at least one of those 40,000 individuals is the highly educated, credentialed, intelligent professional who, if they could, would drop a science bomb on me that would destroy my naïve belief in ID. Ten years later, 40,000 commenters later. No bomb. I’m beginning to think that maybe there isn’t a bomb. Maybe my confidence in ID is not naïve after all.
Oops. Within hours of posting that, Barry was already faced with a bomb he could not defuse. A bomb showing that ID is trillions of times worse at explaining the evidence compared to unguided evolution. UDers have been trying, and failing, to rebut my argument ever since. Barry took a weak stab at it:
Your article consists of sneers and theological arguments about how a designer “woodna dun it that way.”
That's wrong, of course. My argument makes no assumptions about how the designer "wooda dun it". That's precisely the problem for IDers -- they have to explain why, out of the trillions of possibilities, a designer would do things in a way that makes it look exactly as if unguided evolution were responsible. It's bizarre. After refuting Barry, I challenged him:
I’ve placed the bomb in front of you, Barry. Can you defuse it? Will you run for safety and let someone else deal with it? Or will you allow it to explode, and then stagger out of the smoke, dazed and singed like Wile E. Coyote, while insisting that there was no explosion at all? The spotlight’s on you, Barry.
That was on October 24th. I haven't heard from him since. Meanwhile, others have tried, with similar results. Those attempts can be seen in this thread and also here. KF's response was to post yet another of his "FYI-FTR" threads, with comments turned off, of course, to prevent open discussion. At around the same time, he appears to have turned off comments on the thread that WJM started to discuss my argument. The argument clearly has IDers spooked, and no wonder. Once you've seen that ID is losing the game by a score of trillions to one, there is no rational reason to continue believing in ID. IDers desperately need a refutation. Can anyone defuse the bomb?keith s_{November 3, 2014
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I see that my comments have hit a nerve. It's embarrassing to realize that your religious beliefs don't make logical sense, isn't it? (I know -- I was in your shoes once. See this string of comments.) The three of you -- bornagain77, DillyGill, and Querius -- are making the same irrational argument:
God is above our comprehension; therefore I can believe nonsensical things about him.
Here's ba77:
You are not God, i.e. you do not have infinite knowlege, and thus you cannot make that judgement.
And DillyGill:
If you believe there is no God then this will never make sense to you.
And Querius:
As bornagain77 points out, you are not omniscient, and thus you cannot make any such logical determination.
It's convenient, isn't it? You get to believe whatever you want, no matter how absurd, and if anyone points out the absurdity you just say "It's mysterious; it's above our understanding." You can defend any ridiculous set of beliefs that way. Scientology makes perfect sense if you ignore all the laughable, absurd parts. A DillyGill Scientologist can say
If you are not a Scientologist this will never make sense to you.
In other words, drink the Kool-Aid. Stop thinking. Then all of this will make perfect sense to you. It works for Scientology. It works for Christianity.keith s_{November 3, 2014
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Keith S, Rich Astroman, AB, Enkidu I'm still waiting for a plausible explanation how an unguided process created a guided process to prevent unguided processes from happening? Anything people? I rest my case, we are tired of just so stories and we demand testable evidence for your claims.... Claims such as..... "Unguided evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life" Give it to me baby aha aha!Andre_{November 3, 2014
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Isn't that precisely what is wrong with evolutionary biology? ..."No argument over the basic tenets". So after 150 years, you are still treading water. ID pisses you off because its gonna knock some sense into your noggin'; break you out of your "reverie". We really don't want you to go insane, you see Enkidu. After you have done the same-o same-o for 150+ years, expecting different results but gettin' nada.... ....well someone's gotta break your habitual shufflin' to and fro. Snap out of it I say, ole' boy. I mean what are the neighbors gonna think?
Enkidu: There is no argument in the scientific community over the basic tenets of evolutionary theory. There are plenty of arguments over the detail that are still being uncovered but that is not the same thing.
Steve_{November 2, 2014
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Querius Like I said Keith S knows God of the Bible is the one and only true God, he just Hates him for giving Keith S free will, Keith S wants to have his cake and eat it.Andre_{November 2, 2014
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keith s
Your evasions are prolonging the discussion unnecessarily. Let’s cut to the chase.
Why would you label what I've patiently explained to you as “evasions” ?
If he were really trying to save us all from judgment and destruction, he would simply refrain from judging and destroying us!
And I've answered this question, but you're unwilling to accept the answer. You are clinging to rejecting a straw man, a cargo-cult Santa Claus god that doesn't exist. From the Bible, we see that God honors your free will—he won't coerce you. Are willing to accept Mercy on God's terms, or do you demand Justice from God? It's your choice. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:17 NIV
That isn’t justice.
So, God should come to you for advice on what justice is? ;-) It is written in the Bible that the wages of sin is death. This is Justice. Have you broken any of the Ten Commandments? I have.
Your God is a logical impossibility.
Once again, this is your caricature of a cargo-cult Santa Claus god. The problem is that your logic has a gaping hole in it. As bornagain77 points out, you are not omniscient, and thus you cannot make any such logical determination. I'll give you an example. When I was in high school, I saw an impressive clip in my physics class. The films showed four men sitting on wooden chairs around the four side of a wooden table. One of the men rolled a wooden ball, perhaps a billiard ball to the man opposite him. Only the ball didn't make it. Instead, as it neared the center of the table, it made a sharp turn to the right. The man on his right received the ball and again tried to roll it to the man opposite him, but once again the ball make a sharp right turn. The teacher stopped the clip and we all speculated on what actually happened. Ideas came fast: - Magnets - A groove in the table - A blast of air - The table was tipped - The table wasn't flat - The ball contained a motor with a gyroscope inside We were assured that none of those things were involved. Thus, we were presented with a logical impossibility since, without applying a force to the ball, it must continue in a straight line. By analogy, you might have simply denied the existence of the ball. But our problem was that we had *incomplete knowledge*. Then the teacher turned the film back on and we understood what was happening . . . -QQuerius_{November 2, 2014
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Keith S Totally believes in God of the Bible, he just hates him for giving him free willAndre_{November 2, 2014
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Keith, non of this made sense to me until I realized how corrupt I was. If you believe there is no God then this will never make sense to you. Your belief there is no God, from what you post seems to be about the lack of evidence provided however I would say to you that all the evidence you need is there, it is only your pride that stops you from seeing it. Jesus said, love your neighbour as yourself. Does not sound to hard until you actually try to do it as though your eternal life depended on it (saved by grace and yet the proper response to this is to hear and do the word). I come up short every time but I am aware of this and continue to make an effort. Why would I bother unless I fear God? Can you fear your own father and love him also? Can you accept a gift (salvation) and also be disciplined by the same father? You are supposed to be fearful of God! He is not the eternal mug in the sky that gives a nod and a wink as we destroy ourselves and the lives of others with our selfishness and sinfulness. So yes he is kind and loving but those are not his only attributes. He is fearsome, almighty and righteous as well. I am more sympathetic to your lack of belief and comprehension (with out the belief the understanding will never come) than you may realize. Until you try to live a holy life (the proper response to the gift of salvation) you may never understand what the problems (in you) really are. You may feel well justified in your position. That does not mean that you are right. The suffering all sounds so extreme unless it is interpreted in the light that this life is not all there is. Believing in Jesus changes everything because for me I lost the fear of what would I get in this life. You have more choice than you realize in all of this. You do not have to assume materialism because the evidence demands it, you assume materialism because you love your sin (pride I guess) and then you ask your mind to justify your position. I know it sounds arrogant and foolish of me to say all that, so please forgive me. There is just no easy way to put it. I am convinced that before too long, rather than hear this type of thing, the Christians (in the west) will be persecuted to the point of death. I mean, you are so convinced you are right, why would you (or the non believing world you have created) want to hear all this! I am not sure I will blame them either.DillyGill_{November 2, 2014
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keith s "1. My argument doesn’t depend on the Bible. The Christian beliefs I’m criticizing are irrational regardless of their source." Then why are you arguing against the God of the bible instead of arguing against, say, one of the millions upon millions of hindu gods? "2. Arguing that God is beyond our comprehension backfires on you. If God is beyond our comprehension, then why are you making all these claims about him? Just accept that you don’t know that he is perfectly loving, perfectly just, or perfect at all — or even that he exists." Yet it is possible to know that God exists, and that he is perfectly loving and perfectly just without ever comprehending the full extent of that infinity of his love, glory, power, and wisdom, just as it is possible to know that the infinite number of pi exists without ever fully comprehending its full extent. "3. An omnipotent God could protect victims from the consequences of evil actions without depriving anyone of free will." You are not God, i.e. you do not have infinite knowlege, and thus you cannot make that judgement. "4. If your God doesn’t want heaven or “the next creation” to be full of people who don’t want to be there, why doesn’t he provide another paradise for them, instead of judging and destroying them? He’s not a very loving God, is he?" Love is a two way street. Love is shared. Love is not forced. Moreover God is love and life. If you refuse to love God you are in reality refusing to love love and life. "5. Lets say you had twelve children and you are stuck on a desert island. One of your children kilss two of your other children and stabs another in both eyes. Now would you, in order to save the other children incapacitate your murderous child? I would, but then I’m not the Christian God. He has the power to protect his children without judging or destroying anyone." Again you assume you have infinite knowledge so as to be able to make the judgement as to why God allows evil.,,, You don't! "6.The world was designed for good. As the world fell then it was ruined. It was allowed to carry on so that the angels could see what the battle of good v evil looks like so their can be no complaint in heaven when Lucifer is judged and destroyed. That makes no sense. If God wants the angels to see something, he can just beam it into their minds. He’s omnipotent. He doesn’t have to let it happen in reality, especially at the expense of millions of suffering people and animals!" What kind of cruel God would do that? Again, You are not God! "7. God is perfectly loving (more so in the next life) to those that drop their sick pride and repent… And as you implicitly admit, he is not perfectly loving to those who do not repent and believe. So stop calling him perfectly loving!" God is love. If God was not perfect in love he would not be God. To those who choose to be cut of from God, who is the source of all love, and to not love him in return, they will certainly have a profound lack of love in their life. "8. And remember, he chose to bring all of us into the world, knowing perfectly well what each of us was going to do. In other words, he knowingly allows every single evil act to occur, and does nothing to stop it. Would you sit idly by and allow all kinds of horrible evil to befall your children? The Christian God does." You are not God. And thus you have no idea as to whether any act of evil is senseless in God's greater purpose. i.e. God in His infinite wisdom, allows evil to exist for a short while so as to bring about a far greater glory. "9.Perhaps you should invite ISIL round for tea and to meet your family so you can demonstrate how perfect love looks. I don’t claim to be perfectly loving. It is Christians who claim that for their God, despite the contradictions and the contrary evidence." But alas you claim to know what perfect love is so as to be able to judge God for not being perfect in love. i.e. in your argument you assume that you are as wise as God and that you can do better than He has done in creating this universe.,,, i.e. You are NOT God! "10. So it is unlikely that a person who had given themselves over to evil could muster sufficient understanding to have an effective repentance. A life time of ignoring God does not make for an effective death bed repentance. In which case God is responsible for bringing that person into existence, knowing full well that he or she would reject him and suffer horrible punishment. Not very loving, is it?" God, for purposes only he fully knows, thought it well worth the price of creating beings made in his image with free will. Who are we to argue? No angel or human is more sad than God when someone rejects his love, and no angel or human is happier than God when a sinner repents and enters into a relationship with Him. "11. Actually I do not believe that it is God who destroys those that do not acknowledge him or believe, it is done through our own merit. If so, then why doesn’t God prevent it? He’s omnipotent. Would you let your child destroy himself or herself if you could prevent it?" Again you assume you are in a position to make the judgement as to what perfect love looks like. You AREN'T. "12. All but noah and his family failed at the end of the first covenant… Another act of cruelty by your God. Do you really believe that every innocent infant outside of Noah’s family deserved to die a horrible death by drowning? What about all of the animals? Did your God act lovingly?" Again you assume you are in a position to make the judgement as to what perfect love looks like. You AREN'T. "13. God did not torture Jesus to death. The ‘world’ and its systems did… Yes he allowed it to happen… Why would a loving God allow that to happen? And don’t forget, he didn’t merely allow it to happen. He demanded that it happen. He wasn’t going to forgive anyone unless Jesus was tortured to death. You call that “perfectly loving”? A loving God would forgive everyone. He wouldn’t judge and destroy those who failed to jump through an irrational belief hoop. And he wouldn’t demand that anyone be tortured to death." Again you assume you are in a position to make the judgement as to what perfect forgiveness looks like. You AREN'T. "14. It is mysterious why it had to be this way but when you study the ot you will see that it (blood sacrifice) was a spiritual principle laid out in advance… Why would a loving God lay out such a cruel principle? Your concept of God is full of contradictions. Like Querius, you believe in a perfectly loving, perfectly just God who is neither perfectly loving nor perfectly just. He’s a square circle, a logical impossibility. Why believe in a God who cannot exist? It’s irrational." You are a finite being pretending to have infinite knowledge, i.e. to be God, so as to be able to judge God. There is no bigger square circle than that! And to top it all off you want God to fetch your toilet paper for you or else you will not believe in him. No wonder you don't believe in God. You have a false conception of God as your butler. FYI, I don't believe in your false conception of God either. ========== The Easter Question - Eben Alexander, M.D. - March 2013 Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,, Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that -- a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn't simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one. But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it's-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,, We are, really and truly, made in God's image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation -- one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone. But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It's not the world we actually live in.,,, ,,He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer... and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eben-alexander-md/the-easter-question_b_2979741.html Life After Life - Raymond Moody - Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg “The Light was brighter than hundreds of suns, but it did not hurt my eyes. I had never seen anything as luminous or as golden as this Light, and I immediately understood it was entirely composed of love, all directed at me. This wonderful, vibrant love was very personal, as you might describe secular love, but also sacred. Though I had never seen God, I recognized this light as the Light of God. But even the word God seemed too small to describe the magnificence of that presence. I was with my Creator, in holy communication with that presence. The Light was directed at me and through me; it surrounded me and pierced me. It existed just for me.” – testimony taken from Kimberly Clark Sharp’s Near Death Experience http://www.near-death.com/sharp.html 1 John 1:5-7 "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Acts 26:13-15 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Toby Mac (In The Light) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0bornagain77_{November 2, 2014
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And it isn't just horrible evils that your God permits or perpetrates. He won't even perform a simple act of kindness like fetching someone a roll of toilet paper! It makes no sense. The God you believe in does not exist.keith s_{November 2, 2014
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DillyGill, I'll address your points in order. 1. My argument doesn't depend on the Bible. The Christian beliefs I'm criticizing are irrational regardless of their source. 2. Arguing that God is beyond our comprehension backfires on you. If God is beyond our comprehension, then why are you making all these claims about him? Just accept that you don't know that he is perfectly loving, perfectly just, or perfect at all -- or even that he exists. 3. An omnipotent God could protect victims from the consequences of evil actions without depriving anyone of free will. 4. If your God doesn't want heaven or "the next creation" to be full of people who don't want to be there, why doesn't he provide another paradise for them, instead of judging and destroying them? He's not a very loving God, is he? 5.
Lets say you had twelve children and you are stuck on a desert island. One of your children kilss two of your other children and stabs another in both eyes. Now would you, in order to save the other children incapacitate your murderous child?
I would, but then I'm not the Christian God. He has the power to protect his children without judging or destroying anyone. 6.
The world was designed for good. As the world fell then it was ruined. It was allowed to carry on so that the angels could see what the battle of good v evil looks like so their can be no complaint in heaven when Lucifer is judged and destroyed.
That makes no sense. If God wants the angels to see something, he can just beam it into their minds. He's omnipotent. He doesn't have to let it happen in reality, especially at the expense of millions of suffering people and animals! What kind of cruel God would do that? 7.
God is perfectly loving (more so in the next life) to those that drop their sick pride and repent...
And as you implicitly admit, he is not perfectly loving to those who do not repent and believe. So stop calling him perfectly loving! 8. And remember, he chose to bring all of us into the world, knowing perfectly well what each of us was going to do. In other words, he knowingly allows every single evil act to occur, and does nothing to stop it. Would you sit idly by and allow all kinds of horrible evil to befall your children? The Christian God does. 9.
Perhaps you should invite ISIL round for tea and to meet your family so you can demonstrate how perfect love looks.
I don't claim to be perfectly loving. It is Christians who claim that for their God, despite the contradictions and the contrary evidence. 10.
So it is unlikely that a person who had given themselves over to evil could muster sufficient understanding to have an effective repentance. A life time of ignoring God does not make for an effective death bed repentance.
In which case God is responsible for bringing that person into existence, knowing full well that he or she would reject him and suffer horrible punishment. Not very loving, is it? 11.
Actually I do not believe that it is God who destroys those that do not acknowledge him or believe, it is done through our own merit.
If so, then why doesn't God prevent it? He's omnipotent. Would you let your child destroy himself or herself if you could prevent it? 12.
All but noah and his family failed at the end of the first covenant...
Another act of cruelty by your God. Do you really believe that every innocent infant outside of Noah's family deserved to die a horrible death by drowning? What about all of the animals? Did your God act lovingly? 13.
God did not torture Jesus to death. The ‘world’ and its systems did... Yes he allowed it to happen...
Why would a loving God allow that to happen? And don't forget, he didn't merely allow it to happen. He demanded that it happen. He wasn't going to forgive anyone unless Jesus was tortured to death. You call that "perfectly loving"? A loving God would forgive everyone. He wouldn't judge and destroy those who failed to jump through an irrational belief hoop. And he wouldn't demand that anyone be tortured to death. 14.
It is mysterious why it had to be this way but when you study the ot you will see that it (blood sacrifice) was a spiritual principle laid out in advance...
Why would a loving God lay out such a cruel principle? Your concept of God is full of contradictions. Like Querius, you believe in a perfectly loving, perfectly just God who is neither perfectly loving nor perfectly just. He's a square circle, a logical impossibility. Why believe in a God who cannot exist? It's irrational.keith s_{November 2, 2014
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DillyGill:
Keith, I have no doubt you will have responses!
You're right about that. :-)
I am in a battle for the survival of my business so will get back to you when I can
Best of luck to you.keith s_{November 2, 2014
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Keith, I have no doubt you will have responses! I am in a battle for the survival of my business so will get back to you when I can :)DillyGill_{November 2, 2014
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Keith s @1580 You say 'He tortures an innocent person to death as payment for the sins of others. That isn’t justice.' God did not torture Jesus to death. The 'world' and its systems did. The 'worldly' approach is the love of sin, the love of money and the pride of man. This is a demonstration of what the world actually thinks of good and of God. Yes he allowed it to happen because life is not what you think it is. I used to think that living a Godly life would be easy so long as I believed sufficiently in God, I mean it should be shouldnt it?! The ten commandments are not all that hard really. I have found though it is impossible. So for those who are willing to repent and have a good stab at it there is the need for attonment. There can be no complaints from believers that God does not know what it is like to suffer. Jesus did nothing wrong and he suffered. It is mysterious why it had to be this way but when you study the ot you will see that it (blood sacrifice) was a spiritual principle laid out in advance so that we may know the seriousness and deadliness of the choices we make and we may know that this is a Godly pattern and type (not and accident) and something that was required. Somethings are just the way they are and there may not be any satisfactory explanation. I know that may be infuriating to someone (like me) raised in the how and why society but the Bible is more about which and when. And lest we forget Jesus was resurrected.DillyGill_{November 2, 2014
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Keith s @1580 You say 'Now let’s test the idea that the Christian God is perfectly just. He peevishly judges and destroys people who don’t believe in him or acknowledge him, but those who suck up to him are home free. That isn’t justice.' Those that suck up to him are not home free. Those that hear and respond to the word do get a pass. A big difference. Actually I do not believe that it is God who destroys those that do not acknowledge him or believe, it is done through our own merit. it is my belief that you fall back through the covenants if you have not had evidence presented or heard the word and are judged on your actions given that you have a conscience. All but noah and his family failed at the end of the first covenant (although some were defined as good prior to that and perhaps at one stage it may have been many) so most will be destroyed as they embrace a path that leads to evil so with out the covering of Jesus we are left to be judged on our own merits which for your average person will not be good news. That following Jesus is the easy option is not true, because it requires laying down your own desires and adopting new ones and for that Jesus will adopt you into the new life. you will have no excuse Keith so although this all may seem like gobildy gook to you (as it did to me when I rejected God) if ever you do have that moment where you think you may be wrong, (based on the ample evidence of design) then do not hesitate to repent!DillyGill_{November 2, 2014
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keith s @1580 You said 'I pointed out that in your Christian theology, God doesn’t punish all of the people who sin against us. The cruelest serial killer will go scot free if he repents and accepts Jesus on his deathbed.' Have you ever repented? It is not so easy as you think I would suggest! I had a life of hedonistic self gratification and it seared my conscience and destroyed my morality. I had a very poor concept of who God was and what he wanted. Repentance is so much more than muttering a few words, that is just the start, it is surrendering to God and allowing his will to be done in your life. It is hearing the word and responding to it. Trust me, the old self does not die easy and you essentially are killing off your old self. There are plenty that call themselves Christians but Jesus Christ is the only one who gets to say who has had the dramatic change of heart (mind). He is the only one that could know. So it is unlikely that a person who had given themselves over to evil could muster sufficient understanding to have an effective repentance. A life time of ignoring God does not make for an effective death bed repentance. To much pride and to little understanding of what it is that has gone wrong.DillyGill_{November 2, 2014
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Keith s @1580 You wrote 'A perfectly loving God would refrain from judging and destroying people. All people. Would you judge and destroy your children? If you did, would that be a loving act? If your God chooses to judge and destroy people, then he isn’t perfectly loving. Isn’t that obvious? If not, then how is it that judging and destroying counts as a loving act in your book?' A perfectly valid concern in my book. I mean how do you justify all that? We are all his children. Lets say you had twelve children and you are stuck on a desert island. One of your children kilss two of your other children and stabs another in both eyes. Now would you, in order to save the other children incapacitate your murderous child? If you knew that this child only had murder in his heart toward your other children would you be tempted (it is with in your power) to end his life? The Bible says God says he knows our thoughts, motives, intentions. The world was designed for good. As the world fell then it was ruined. It was allowed to carry on so that the angels could see what the battle of good v evil looks like so their can be no complaint in heaven when Lucifer is judged and destroyed. Only a new creation will suffice for the restoration of all things. There are plenty of times where I have thought to myself it would have been easier if God had not bothered in the first place, it is all to hard and complicated. God is perfectly loving (more so in the next life) to those that drop their sick pride and repent (listen and act on the word) You have a concept of what being perfectly loving is and God has fallen short of your concept. Perhaps you should invite ISIL round for tea and to meet your family so you can demonstrate how perfect love looks.DillyGill_{November 2, 2014
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Keith s @ 1580 I want to answer your questions in bite size chunks. First up in order to argue against the Bible then the argument must be taken as the Bible presents itself so if you are going to use the Bible to condemn it you must (for the sake of the argument) accept the Bible at face value as I try to defend it. The bible is a book of types and patterns. As best as I can understand it, life is a physical demonstration of spiritual principles. That is the purpose of life as I understand the Bible. So we are the beneficiaries as well as the loosers in the demonstration. You wrote 'If he were really trying to save us all from judgment and destruction, he would simply refrain from judging and destroying us! He’s God. What makes you think that he is obligated to judge and destroy, and who is imposing that obligation on him?' God is perfect in ways that are so beyond our understanding so it is hard to comprehend. It is like a five year old trying to debate a world famous scientist on the scientists home topic. We get to see his power in the size of the universe, his creativity and intelligence in the designed biological systems of life. Life is made for His purposes. Until you take that view and have God in his rightful place then non of the judgment side of things will seem fair. He is sovereign. He is the Big Daddy, His is the owner of all things in the universe. He loves righteousness more than he loves us though and that may seem tough but over all I think you would agree that when we see evil in action (as a result of the love of sin) we are certain that it needs to be confronted (ISIS or ISIL spring to mind). So then, as failed humans we feel we have the right to make a judgement call so how much more does God have the right. This life is all about the choice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-SzIJngWqE No one is forcing Gods hand, so far as is revealed in the Bible this is a reaction to an event (rebellion) in the spiritual realm. God does not want the next creation to be full of people (or new beings) who do not want to be there (because they reject God and follow their own ideas of good)DillyGill_{November 2, 2014
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Barry, will you please provide some examples of a "Bomb" that would change your mind? And to point out some important things: "Darwinian narrative" is not synonymous with modern Evolutionary Theory and what you mean by "origins" needs to be clarified.Astroman_{November 2, 2014
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"I don't want to hit you Eileen. Why do you make me hit you?" -A Terrible Boyfriend "I don't want to torture you for eternity, human. Why do you make me torture you for eternity?" -An Infinitely Worse Diety BTW this post should be titled "No Clue After 10 Years".notstevestory_{November 2, 2014
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Querius, Your evasions are prolonging the discussion unnecessarily. Let's cut to the chase. You believe in a perfectly loving, perfectly just God. You wrote:
God’s trying to save you and as many people possible from the judgment and destruction originally meant for the devil and his angels.
I asked the obvious question:
If he were really trying to save us all from judgment and destruction, he would simply refrain from judging and destroying us! He’s God. What makes you think that he is obligated to judge and destroy, and who is imposing that obligation on him?
And:
A perfectly loving God would refrain from judging and destroying people. All people. Would you judge and destroy your children? If you did, would that be a loving act? If your God chooses to judge and destroy people, then he isn’t perfectly loving. Isn’t that obvious? If not, then how is it that judging and destroying counts as a loving act in your book?
You argued that God wouldn't be acting lovingly toward us if he didn't punish the people who sinned against us. I pointed out that in your Christian theology, God doesn't punish all of the people who sin against us. The cruelest serial killer will go scot free if he repents and accepts Jesus on his deathbed. So those are points #1 and #2: 1. A God who judges and destroys his children is not a perfectly loving God. 2. In an attempt to defend God, you ended up showing that he is unloving by your own standards. Now let's test the idea that the Christian God is perfectly just. He peevishly judges and destroys people who don't believe in him or acknowledge him, but those who suck up to him are home free. That isn't justice. He tortures an innocent person to death as payment for the sins of others. That isn't justice. And perhaps most bizarrely of all, he insists that someone must be tortured to death, instead of simply forgiving everybody. How loving is that? Points #3, #4, and #5: 3. It isn't just for God to judge and destroy only the people who don't suck up to him. 4. It isn't just for God to torture an innocent person to death for the sins of others. 5. God is in charge. He doesn't have to punish anybody. Yet he insists that an innocent person must be tortured to death. Why? That is neither just nor loving. You believe in a perfectly loving, perfectly just God who is neither perfectly loving nor perfectly just. Why? It's as silly as believing in a square circle. Your God is a logical impossibility.keith s_{November 2, 2014
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