Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Non-probabilistic design arguments

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Biochemist Michael Behe has stated:

“A man from a primitive culture who sees an automobile might guess that it was powered by the wind or by an antelope hidden under the car, but when he opens up the hood and sees the engine he immediately realizes that it was designed. In the same way biochemistry has opened up the cell to examine what makes it run and we see that it, too, was designed.”

One needs no probabilistic calculation to infer design before a car or cell. Why — as Behe says — “he immediately realizes that it was designed”? Because such dynamic systems show clear hallmarks of organization. Some of them are:

(1) hierarchy of devices and functions (see my previous post);
(2) hierarchy of tasks and actions, when the system is in operation;
(3) implementation of the control-power paradigm (see here);
(4) implementation of the communication paradigm between sub-systems.

Why organization implies intelligent design? Because chance and necessity cannot create organization in principle.

In fact chance is simply a brute force of un-correlation. Example, in coin tossing any outcome is unrelated to the previous ones. Since organization eminently implies relations, how can a producer of non relations create it? Not only chance can do nothing to organize, even it destroys organization if it enter into the systems.

The same, necessity (aka natural laws) per se cannot be the cause of organization because they don’t potentially contain it. Natural laws are relatively simple mathematical equations. These equations don’t implicitly contain the specifications of the least organized system, as the simple function y=x^2 doesn’t contain, say, Riemann’s zeta function, which is of a far higher order than the quadratic one.

Neither the couple natural laws + randomness can create organization. In fact natural laws are a processor. If randomness provides garbage in input to it this processor necessarily outputs garbage.

The usual objections to this non-probabilistic ID argument are:

Objection #1: “This ID argument may be ok for the machines but it doesn’t apply to biological systems because they self-reproduce”.
Reply: On the contrary, the ID inference applies to biology to greater reason, because self-reproduction needs organization of the highest order. That was mathematically proved by J. von Neumann more than half century ago.

Objection #2: “In biology natural selection creates organization by optimizing random variations”.
Reply: Natural selection is simply an additional post processor in the chain of chance and necessity. I said above they provide garbage, so natural selection cannot produce new organization from random variations, because again “garbage in garbage out”.

Objection #3: “Non-probabilistic ID arguments are not scientific because they aren’t quantitative”.
Reply: Science is full of non quantitative arguments. Even entire fields of mathematics are not quantitative. Also, in general, all quantitative arguments are necessarily based on non quantitative assumptions.

Objection #4: “Simple rules can create complex patterns”.
Reply: These patterns have nothing to do with the least organized system.

Objection #5: “Your arguments are only philosophical assumptions”.
Reply: No, they are pure technical, engineering issues.

Objection #6: “Devices, functions, tasks, control-power, communication are only ideas in your mind”.
Reply: No, they are real things you see with your eyes. You deny evidence.

Objection #7: “Organization is not a well defined concept”.
Reply: It is so well defined and known that all technology is based on it. In industry the descriptions of their internal organization are the starting point for the construction of all engineering products. More, some measures of complexity of a system indeed are based on its technical descriptions.

Objection #8: “Natural laws are able to produce ordered configurations”.
Reply: Organization is fully different and far higher than simple order.

Objection #9: “We know that a car is designed only because we see its designers”.
Reply: If we find a machine on Mars we infer design also without knowing its designers.

Objection #10: “Organization makes sense only if you can measure it”.
Reply: No, precise quantitative measures are only an add-on for a design inference in most cases. Similarly, to say that a woman is very beautiful I don’t need to measure her body exactly. It is true — as Norbert Wiener said — that “The amount of information in a system is a measure of its organization degree” but recognition of organization is possible also without precise measures of the amount of information (see here).

Comments
Vishnu I’m not misrepresenting it. I bring it up merely because it’s an easy algorithm to grasp. The active information, of course, is in the target string and the fitness function which is intentionally designed to hit the target in a small number of iterations, no matter what specific random numbers come up. It's still not an evolution simulator so has no relevance to the "walking robot" example I provided. It’s impossible to answer the question without having detailed understanding of all the processes and information in the system at its initial condition Which means that claims actual evolutionary processes have barriers are specious at best. Likewise, no one has even shown that micro-evolution can be extrapolated on a system level to produce novel cell types, tissue types, organs and body plans. It’s an open question. Actually that's not true. Science has quite a bit of evidence on all of those topics. Take body plan development for example. In the last two decades a whole new branch of science called evolutionary developmental biology (EvoDevo for short) has arisen. There is a ton of work on HOX genes and how they produce body plans. A good layman's overview is the book Endless Forms Most Beautiful by biologist Sean Carroll.Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:55 AM
11
11
55
AM
PDT
Adapa After all "Ada", beyond to be the name of a famous computer programming language especially used in avionics, seems a fem name... "Meanwhile there’s still no barrier to the accumulation of GA or evolutionary changes." These changes are zero from the point of view of organization. Otherwise GAs would be massively used in industry to create ex novo entire projects for free. Unfortunately, as Dembski puts it, "No free lunch". See: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-doesnt-software-industry-use-evolution/niwrad
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:41 AM
11
11
41
AM
PDT
Adapa: That’s not what “active information” means in ID complaints. According to Dembski it’s additional information that’s somehow introduced to produce the results above and beyond the simulated processes of random variation in a population and an environment to provide selection pressures.
I'll have to check into that. Thanks
V: Do you agree or disagree that Dawkins Weasel program contains active information?
A: The Dawkins Weasel program isn’t an evolution simulator.
It's not an unguided evolution simulator, that's for sure. But it does demonstrate in a rudimentary way how an accumulation of "traits" can occur towards a specific outcome, with varying degrees of fitness along a path that is not completely pre-determined.
It’s a simple demonstration of the cumulative ability of selection.
Correct. Can you find the active information in Dawkin's Weasel program?
Why ID proponents still misrepresent the purpose of the program is unknown.
I'm not misrepresenting it. I bring it up merely because it's an easy algorithm to grasp. The active information, of course, is in the target string and the fitness function which is intentionally designed to hit the target in a small number of iterations, no matter what specific random numbers come up.
V: Front-loaded and GAs are do a lot, but they can’t do everything. A: Given unlimited time and resources along with a variable environment what barrier would stop a GA from continuing to produce novelties?
It's impossible to answer the question without having detailed understanding of all the processes and information in the system at its initial condition.
You’re basically making the same claim as “sure microevolution works but it can’t accumulate into macroevolution”. No one has ever shown any barrier to the accumulation of changes.
Likewise, no one has even shown that micro-evolution can be extrapolated on a system level to produce novel cell types, tissue types, organs and body plans. It's an open question.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:35 AM
11
11
35
AM
PDT
M. Holcumbrink In my comment at 49, I stated that an overall purpose of a system can be unknown, yet we can still recognize design at the component level. And if a box of screws falls down the oil stick port and ruins the engine, nobody would ask “what in the world is the purpose of the screws being in this engine – what a crappy design”. Sometimes things just end up where they were not meant to be. Besides, the problem of evil is distinct from the appearance of design. Are you saying that Ebola, rabies, and Harlequin ichthyosis are the equivalent of screws falling into an engine? That they weren't designed? Behe in his Edge of Evolution says the Intelligent Designer purposely created resistance to anti-malarial drugs in the malaria parasite, the net result of which is more people die of malaria. Are there actually two Designers trying to destroy the other's creations? Please clarify, thanks.Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:33 AM
11
11
33
AM
PDT
niwrad Adapa Errata corrige. May be “you are a nice… girl”? LOL! Maybe you're about 10 years old? Or at least have the maturity level of a 10 year old. Why do so many IDers act like children when you point out their basic science misunderstandings? Meanwhile there's still no barrier to the accumulation of GA or evolutionary changes.Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:26 AM
11
11
26
AM
PDT
Adapa @ 51, In my comment at 49, I stated that an overall purpose of a system can be unknown, yet we can still recognize design at the component level. And if a box of screws falls down the oil stick port and ruins the engine, nobody would ask “what in the world is the purpose of the screws being in this engine – what a crappy design”. Sometimes things just end up where they were not meant to be. Besides, the problem of evil is distinct from the appearance of design.M. Holcumbrink
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:26 AM
11
11
26
AM
PDT
Adapa Errata corrige. May be "you are a nice... girl"?niwrad
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:19 AM
11
11
19
AM
PDT
Adapa:
It gave the robots the ability to mutate randomly then allowed selection to keep the ones that worked best for the next generation.
Umm, that means it had the ability to actively search for solutions.
All the ToE says is that the biological variations we see emerged as a consequence of observed natural laws and processes.
Please reference this alleged ToE so we can all see what it really says.Joe
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:18 AM
11
11
18
AM
PDT
Adapa OP: And importantly, they also programmed the system such that the faster bots would reproduce more. Adapa: That’s exactly how it works in the real world of evolution. Adapa: If being slower helps an animal survive in its environment by avoiding detection from predators then slowness is a beneficial trait that will lead to a better chance at reproduction. Adapa - in your better moments, you seem like a thoughtful person.Silver Asiatic
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:15 AM
11
11
15
AM
PDT
niwrad Actually the addition is 0+0+0…. = 0. Avoidance of question noted. I'll accept your admission you can identify no barrier that prevents the accumulation of new features over time in either a GA or in actual biological evolution. Anything else you'd like me to correct your misunderstanding on?Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:12 AM
11
11
12
AM
PDT
Adapa Actually the addition is 0+0+0.... = 0. You are a nice boy. I don't want to change anything in your brilliant mind. You should only toggle two key values in your person registry file: "IAmAnEvolutionist" -> 0 "IAmAnIDer" -> 1 With this little configuration change you could use your intelligence to serve the truth, instead of falsity.niwrad
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
11:06 AM
11
11
06
AM
PDT
niwrad Adapa #47: Given unlimited time and resources along with a variable environment what barrier would stop a GA from continuing to produce novelties? … No one has ever shown any barrier to the accumulation of changes. Of course such “novelties” and ‘changes’ have nothing to do with new organization. Otherwise we would have that a finite chance+law system produces infinite organization (“no barrier”). I said unlimited (i.e. infinite) time and resources, not finite. Do you see how that is pure mathematical impossibility, like infinite from 0 by addition? No. Demonstrate, not just assert, the barrier that makes it impossible for GAs to produce novelties beyond a certain level. Demonstrate the limit to addition that 1+1+1+1... can't cross.Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
M. Holcumbrink That is why life “reeks of design” – purpose radiates off of it from every nook and cranny in the biological world. You can see it plainly without any knowledge of statistics. Really? What is the purpose of Ebola? Of rabies? Of Harlequin ichthyosis?Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
10:52 AM
10
10
52
AM
PDT
Adapa #47
Given unlimited time and resources along with a variable environment what barrier would stop a GA from continuing to produce novelties? ... No one has ever shown any barrier to the accumulation of changes.
Of course such "novelties" and 'changes' have nothing to do with new organization. Otherwise we would have that a finite chance+law system produces infinite organization ("no barrier"). Do you see how that is pure mathematical impossibility, like infinite from 0 by addition? and physical impossibility too, like perpetual motion machine?niwrad
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PDT
niwrad, I think the most compelling non-probabilistic design argument is the recognition of “purpose” in an organized system. This is what triggers the realization that something was clearly designed. Even if the overall purpose of a system is unknown (e.g. signal transmission, transduction, motility), even the individual components have a clear purpose of their own, however small (e.g. this axle is attached to this cog, which is meant to turn this other axle). Purpose is clear, in any organized system, and sticks out like a sore thumb in an in-your-face kind of a way, which is distinct from and entirely absent in naturaly ordered systems (e.g. hurricanes, rivers, etc.). This is why Dawkins’s argumentation that there really isn’t any purpose involved in biological systems must be attempted. The attempt at reasoning away any semblance of purpose is key in materialistic evangelism. This is because “purpose” is transcendent; it cannot be explained by materialism. And yet it is there and ubiquitous in life systems. That is why life “reeks of design” – purpose radiates off of it from every nook and cranny in the biological world. You can see it plainly without any knowledge of statistics.M. Holcumbrink
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
10:40 AM
10
10
40
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic We also have to explain why there are slower animals that reproduce more and what actually did the programming If being slower helps an animal survive in its environment by avoiding detection from predators then slowness is a beneficial trait that will lead to a better chance at reproduction. No one did the programming, it's just natural evolutionary processes in action. Seriously SA, any decent high school level biology book can explain the details to you. Do you have any desire to learn?Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
10:00 AM
10
10
00
AM
PDT
Vishnu Honestly, I’m not very familiar with how Dembski and Marks use the term. I’ve never read a single book from either one of them. Although it can’t be far from what I’m thinking as an engineer. For me, active information in a system is what the system relies on to do its functions, without which the processes would not function. These robots are not “evolving” in a vacuum. They are operating by design in certain ways with certain principles and constrains put there by the engineers. That information is necessarily “active.” That's not what "active information" means in ID complaints. According to Dembski it's additional information that's somehow introduced to produce the results above and beyond the simulated processes of random variation in a population and an environment to provide selection pressures. But no one from the ID side will ever explain what this additional "active information" is or how it gets into the results. Like I said, it's a meaningless hand-wave of the ID refuting evidence. Do you agree or disagree that Dawkins Weasel program contains active information? The Dawkins Weasel program isn't an evolution simulator. It's a simple demonstration of the cumulative ability of selection. Why ID proponents still misrepresent the purpose of the program is unknown. Front-loaded and GAs are do a lot, but they can’t do everything. Given unlimited time and resources along with a variable environment what barrier would stop a GA from continuing to produce novelties? You're basically making the same claim as "sure microevolution works but it can't accumulate into macroevolution". No one has ever shown any barrier to the accumulation of changes.Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
09:55 AM
9
09
55
AM
PDT
Vishnu
So then, as an intelligent designer I could manipulate the environment as part of my desired outcome for faster animals. Great. Thanks for the tip. Of course, we still have all those other details to work out, such as how the animals got there in the first place, what level of processes and systems I have to come up with, and when, etc, etc. Being an intelligent designer of a biosphere can be hard work!
LOL. We also have to explain why there are slower animals that reproduce more and what actually did the programming.Silver Asiatic
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
09:45 AM
9
09
45
AM
PDT
Everything is designed, not just "man stuff". "The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of the mountain, or in the petals of a flower. To think otherwise is to demean the Buddha - which is to demean oneself." Robert Pirsigppolish
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
09:25 AM
9
09
25
AM
PDT
MeThink, to paraphrase Paul Rand - "Everything is designed". I'm a hard core IDer. Even that antelope is designed:0ppolish
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
09:17 AM
9
09
17
AM
PDT
Phoodoo it's useless Adapa believes in magic and nothing is going to change his mind.Andre
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
09:09 AM
9
09
09
AM
PDT
Adapa, EVERY computer simulation of evolution that has ever been made are farces, which contain constraints and guidance as a fundamental part of their property. If you want to model evolution, the only computer model that would ever make sense is, just let a computer start copying things badly, and see if anything useful ever emerges. That is the claim of evolution. A program that says be a robot and walk (because your goal is to walk) , is already a prefabricated deceit, which has nothing to do with the claim of evolution. There is no goal to obtain in evolution.phoodoo
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
09:05 AM
9
09
05
AM
PDT
Adapa, Do you agree or disagree that Dawkins Weasel program contains active information?Vishnu
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
08:50 AM
8
08
50
AM
PDT
Vishnu: The robotic systems were designed by humans and contain preposterous amounts of active information, put there by said human engineers. Adapa: Ah, the infamous Dembski/Marks hand wave, “active” information. When if became clear that simulations using unguided evolutionary processes produced new features exactly as evolutionary biologists said they would the ID community needed an excuse. Thus the meaningless buzz phrase “active information is being smuggled in” was born.
Honestly, I'm not very familiar with how Dembski and Marks use the term. I've never read a single book from either one of them. Although it can't be far from what I'm thinking as an engineer. For me, active information in a system is what the system relies on to do its functions, without which the processes would not function. These robots are not "evolving" in a vacuum. They are operating by design in certain ways with certain principles and constrains put there by the engineers. That information is necessarily "active."
Why don’t you describe this “active information”, show where it’s being smuggled in, and why it’s not part of the overall evolutionary process being simulated.
Smuggled? I need to see the source code and data set that the robotic programmers used in setting the systems up. Are you saying that you don't think is active information in the programming code and data sets that the robotic systems are using?Vishnu
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
08:39 AM
8
08
39
AM
PDT
Adapa: If you were omnipotent sure you could. To folks on the ground it would look exactly like unguided natural causes.
I am not convinced omnipotence (whatever that is) is necessary for the job. Just someone, or maybe a group of someones, who are perhaps an order of magnitude more intelligent than humans. Moreover, I personally "live on the ground", and I am not at all convinced in the "unguided" part of your statement.
If you were doing it all in one shot I agree. If you let natural processes do the work for you over 3.5 billion years then it’s a lot easier.
Oh, I agree. Genetic algorithms would be great at filling niches (which I use myself in engineering), and front-loading in the expression of traits due to environmental cues at the right time and place. I can hardly imagine it being accomplished any differently, unless the designer(s) are not smart enough to pull it off without direct active control moment by moment, which I can't imagine they are, since that would be quite tedious and boring. I think they only intervene for the Really Big Stuff, such as when a large infusion of information is required that could not have plausibly been front-loaded due to contrains on genome size, etc. Front-loaded and GAs are do a lot, but they can't do everything.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
08:28 AM
8
08
28
AM
PDT
Vishnu The robotic systems were designed by humans and contain preposterous amounts of active information, put there by said human engineers. Ah, the infamous Dembski/Marks hand wave, "active" information. When if became clear that simulations using unguided evolutionary processes produced new features exactly as evolutionary biologists said they would the ID community needed an excuse. Thus the meaningless buzz phrase "active information is being smuggled in" was born. Why don't you describe this "active information", show where it's being smuggled in, and why it's not part of the overall evolutionary process being simulated.Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
08:21 AM
8
08
21
AM
PDT
Adapa: Sounds like you’re saying if some “hand” set up the laws and processes of nature then the evolution of complex systems could indeed emerge from those processes. Congratulations, you’re now a theistic evolutionist.
I've been called worse things.
All the ToE says is that the biological variations we see emerged as a consequence of observed natural laws and processes. It says nothing about where the laws and processes themselves originated.
What is a "natural law and process" in your mind? Can that be one that was deliberately established by an intelligent actor?
Have you tried contacting the author of the study? Most scientists are quite happy to answer questions about their work.
No. I don't have a lot of time. But I may attempt it this weekend. Now, of course, you know that whatever software is running these robots, it is going to contain large amounts of active information created by the programmers. Or do you believe otherwise? And to the degree they have programmed these systems so they can evolve/adapt given their environment, that will demonstrate even more how brilliant the programmers are. Wouldn't you say?Vishnu
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
08:17 AM
8
08
17
AM
PDT
Vishnu So then, as an intelligent designer I could manipulate the environment as part of my desired outcome for faster animals. Great. Thanks for the tip. If you were omnipotent sure you could. To folks on the ground it would look exactly like unguided natural causes. Of course, we still have all those other details to work out, such as how the animals got there in the first place, what level of processes and systems I have to come up with, and when, etc, etc. Being an intelligent designer of a biosphere can be hard work! If you were doing it all in one shot I agree. If you let natural processes do the work for you over 3.5 billion years then it's a lot easier.Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
08:15 AM
8
08
15
AM
PDT
Andre: They are not fair because the program is designed… Adapa: That doesn’t even begin to make sense. Just because a natural process is simulated on a computer that somehow makes the simulation not “fair” (whatever that means)? Why don’t you show us how the walking robot evolution simulation wasn’t “fair”.
If it's true that blind-watchmaker evolution is what you have in mind as a comparison, then of course it's not fair. The robotic systems were designed by humans and contain preposterous amounts of active information, put there by said human engineers. Have you run across anyone here that rejects the idea that intelligent human designers can create systems that can evolve within certain constrains? At any rate, I'd like to see the details of the software that's running these robots. If you can direct me to it, that would be appreciated.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
08:12 AM
8
08
12
AM
PDT
Vishnu Not necessarily. (Although, sometimes there may be an articular “hand” in them. Who knows?) But the meteorological systems by which they emerge may be designed. How many hurricanes do you see on Mars Sounds like you're saying if some "hand" set up the laws and processes of nature then the evolution of complex systems could indeed emerge from those processes. Congratulations, you're now a theistic evolutionist. All the ToE says is that the biological variations we see emerged as a consequence of observed natural laws and processes. It says nothing about where the laws and processes themselves originated. If someone has time to dig out the details, I would be interested. Have you tried contacting the author of the study? Most scientists are quite happy to answer questions about their work.Adapa
November 18, 2014
November
11
Nov
18
18
2014
08:11 AM
8
08
11
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply