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Not Unbroken

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I am broken.

I am not alone though.  You are broken too.  In fact, the whole world and everyone in it is broken.  We recognize that there is the way things are and there is the way things should be and the two are not the same.

What shall we make of this universal awareness of our own brokenness in particular and the world’s brokenness in general?  Denying the awareness exists does no good.  It is there.  It is glaring.  It stares each of us in the face every day.  Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.

So there it is; our awareness of our and the world’s brokenness.  It exists and any thinking person must try to account for its existence.  It cannot be ignored.  How did that awareness come to be?  Is the awareness based on something real or is it an illusion?

For Jews and Christians, of course, these are easy questions.  We believe in a transcendent moral standard rooted in God’s character.  God has not established the Good.  He is the Good, and all goodness flows from him.  Each of us (whether we say we believe in God or not) innately understands that Goodness exists and that we all fall short of measuring up to it.  I don’t understand why the doctrine of original sin is so controversial.  Of all the doctrines of Christianity, it is the one that is supported by what I would think to be undeniable empirical evidence based on our own personal day-to-day experience and thousands of years of recorded history.

For the materialist, however, it seems to me that the question is all but unanswerable.  At least since Hume we have known that “ought” cannot be grounded in “is.”  The materialist believes that “is” is all there is.  It follows there is nothing on which to ground “ought.”  This is what Dawkins means when he says there is no good and no bad.  On materialist premises – if there really is no good and no bad — there is no reason to believe I and the world are broken.  As Lewis famously said, a man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.  And the materialist denies the existence of straight lines.

Yet that awareness of our own and the world’s brokenness persists nevertheless even for materialists.  The standard Darwinist line, of course, is that the moral impulse is an evolutionary adaptation, and they delight in making up just so stories about why this or that altruistic behavior is adaptive, when they are not making up stories for why the opposite of that behavior is also adaptive.  Altruism is adaptive.  Sure.  But so is rape and murder.  Hmmm.

But when it comes to our awareness of our and the world’s brokenness, none of those stories matters.  We are not talking about individual behaviors that may or may not have been adaptive in the remote evolutionary past.  We are talking about the fact that we all know that a straight line exists and therefore we can call crooked lines crooked, even when we deny knowing any such thing.  I suppose some Darwinist will be able to make up a just so story to explain why this is the case; after all the Darwinist capacity for story telling seems to be limitless.  But I doubt any such story will convince anyone who is not already convinced.  For those of us who are unable to muster the tremendous leaps of faith necessary to become and remain a materialist, the story is likely to be implausible to say the least.

Comments
Silver Asiatic said:
I think it’s true today to say that in the collection of all objective moral codes in existence today, one will not find that every and any human act is somewhere permitted. Kidnapping and torture of children for pleasure, for example, cannot be found even in the most hedonistic code.
My point was that it is theoretically possible that any act could be made moral under an objective morality, not that all possible acts have been at some time considered moral.
I would argue that the creation of an objective moral code cannot occur that easily.
It's very easy to create an objective moral code; all that is necessary is to make up a list of rules and record it somewhere. The question isn't if objective moral codes exist - even Humanist ethics are written down and as such represent an "objective moral code" in the sense that it objectively exists as a code. There's a difference between an objectively existent moral code and whether or not our sense of morality reflects an objectively existent, universal commodity which we interpret as oughts. Anyone can write down a list of subjective moral rules and viola! that moral code is objectively existent; that doesn't mean those rules reflect the actual commodity that morality refers to.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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Jerad said:
I don’t think that way or feel that way or justify my views in those ways.
Of course you don't. Nobody outside of sociopaths think that way. That's the point. You do not think in accordance with the logic necessary under moral subjectivism. You espouse moral subjectivism, but you live and think in accordance with moral objectivism.
You have this view of people which is very narrow and based on your assumptions.
No, your internal narrative prevents you from understanding the actual nature of my argument. You cannot differentiate between an argument describing what moral subjectivism would logically necessitate and an argument claiming that self-described moral subjectivists actually think that way.
No, it has to do with whether or not other people are being hurt or abused and the degree of it.
Which is how you personally feel morality should be grounded. Under moral subjectivism, if someone personally feels that whether or not others are harmed or abused has nothing whatsoever to do with morality, under moral subjectivism that view is as valid and as moral as your own. This is where your cognitive biases are hiding something important from you: if morality is subjective in nature, then ultimately no matter what principle you offer that supposedly guides your moral behavior, your choice or use or acknowledgement of that principle is still rooted in your own personal preferences/proclivities and it cannot be an external arbiter by which your personal preferences/proclivities could be ascertained to be erroneous. Your cognitive bias/narrative is fooling you into thinking that a morality logically consistent with subjectivism can ultimately be anything other than "because I feel like it". Because you feel bad about others being harmed or abused, you have a moral principle/ethic about not harming others. If you did not feel negatively about it, you would have no such moral "grounds" to your system of behavior. (That is, if you were thinking/acting in accordance with moral subjectivism, which you are not.)
I am not appealing to rhetoric but as there can be emotional pain and suffering then that may enter in.
As far as justifying your own moral proclivities or attempting to convince others thereof, rhetoric is all you have to appeal to, logically speaking. Unless pain and suffering are posited as objectively valid moral considerations, they are nothing personal preferences based on feelings. Invoking personal preferences and feelings in an attempt to sway the views of other is the very definition of rhetoric. Invoking personal preferences and feelings in order to justify (in a debate) a position is irrational.
Don’t hurt or abuse other people, that’s one of my central themes. If you do then you should expect to punished or restricted in society in some way. I don’t see how my own feelings come into that.
It's quite obvious that you don't see it, but that doesn't change the fact that, under moral subjectivism (logically), because you feel negatively about the harm or abuse of other people, you construct a moral principle that reflects that feeling. (That's not what really goes on - you sense through conscience the actual moral landscape and, using logic (such as you are able) to reason out moral principles from that actual sensory interaction. However, as a subjectivist, you must intellectually reject that this is what is going on, and instead all you can logically be doing (even though it's not what you are actually doing) is extrapolating a subjective moral code from personal, subjective feelings and proclivities. You see, I'm not accusing you of making up moral codes based on feelings; I'm showing you what is logically necessary if moral subjectivism is actually true. You can't see it because that's not what you are actually doing, but cognitive bias (probably due to ideological commitments) is hiding what you are actually doing from you, layering over it a superficial, poorly-thought-out, irrational subjective-morality cover story to avoid theism.) Unfortunately, what you seem incapable of doing (or are prevented from doing by your ideological commitments) is following that logic back to fundamental premise (in your case, an undeclared and probably unrecognized but necessary axiom) that your moral codes must logically be extrapolated from your personal, subjective feelings and proclivities (since you accept no exterior, objective moral code that can overrule your feelings) under moral subjectivism.
I can see that some issues would need a bit of clarification but I think my basic stance is a good place to start.
Actually, you are blind to the fact that your entire stated position is self-defeating and innately irrational, but then, that's the nature of cognitive biases. Your heart's in the right place, even if your head is being led astray by ideological commitments. You probably behave more morally than I.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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Or subjective. Or all these religious war were just some giant misunderstanding.
Like the Albigensian and Waldensian crusades. Christians vs Christians.Jerad
January 17, 2015
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Or subjective. Or all these religious war were just some giant misunderstanding.hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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do all these codes agree? And if not how do you explain that an action can be objectively morally right and wrong at the same time?
I guess objective codes are relative. :-)Jerad
January 17, 2015
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do all these codes agree? And if not how do you explain that an action can be objectively morally right and wrong at the same time?hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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SA, I asked you, a moral objectivist, how you would judge. I then presented to you how I, a moral subjectivist, would. Now your reply to me is that I am wrong. So we are back to WJM's assessment. Subjectivists are delusional liars if they agree and sociopaths if they don't. I think I get it. Please refer to my statement in the WJM thread about my practical outlook on this. Cheers.hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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hrun
Wait, what? Is that what people understand as an objective moral code?
I gave several examples of objective moral codes. I could give more: Judiasm - Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed Christianity -- Catholic, Calvinist, Lutheran, etc Muslim - Shiite, Sunni, Sufi Buddhist Stoic Epicurean hedonism Native tribal codes And many more. Most of these codes originate through a combination of religious-revelation and philosophical reasoning.Silver Asiatic
January 17, 2015
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hrun
SA, so a moral subjectivist you judge as wrong. A moral objectivist you inquire about the objective code of conduct, but since there is no objective code that justifies rape you judge him as wrong as well.
It's not that easy. If I was a subjectivist, I would judge the moral subjectivist as right. Rape is a moral good for him.
Now, here’s the scenario from my point of view. I will address both equally since I don’t care about their views on objective vs subjective morality: Rape is wrong.
See above - rape is not wrong in the subjectivist model. I cannot say it is wrong from that perspective. Rape is good in that point of view.Silver Asiatic
January 17, 2015
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I would argue that the creation of an objective moral code cannot occur that easily. It takes a while to develop the code and get a sufficient number of adherents to call it truly objective and not merely a personal code that was just invented.
Wait, what? Is that what people understand as an objective moral code? You have to be mistaken, right?hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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SA, so a moral subjectivist you judge as wrong. A moral objectivist you inquire about the objective code of conduct, but since there is no objective code that justifies rape you judge him as wrong as well. Now, here's the scenario from my point of view. I will address both equally since I don't care about their views on objective vs subjective morality: Rape is wrong. So, we now find ourselves in the same situation. Both an objectivist and subjectivist judge both as wrong. I will also outline how I will proceed from here, but I'd love to hear from you first about this. Presumably it'll make a difference if you deal with a subjectivist or objectivist?hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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WJM
Any act can be accepted as moral in an objectivist model (depending on the model);
I think it's true today to say that in the collection of all objective moral codes in existence today, one will not find that every and any human act is somewhere permitted. Kidnapping and torture of children for pleasure, for example, cannot be found even in the most hedonistic code. With that, we might say "well someone could invent an objective code that permits such things". I would argue that the creation of an objective moral code cannot occur that easily. It takes a while to develop the code and get a sufficient number of adherents to call it truly objective and not merely a personal code that was just invented. There are objective codes that rose up quickly. But these are rarely if ever a full guide to moral life. Things like Nazism or Mafia or street-gang codes could be called objective morality, but they are derivative and highly subjective in themselves. They are also vulnerable to ambiguity and lots of change. An objective moral code requires some sense of stability and a significant level of support.Silver Asiatic
January 17, 2015
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hrun
Now, in practical terms, what do you think is the different outcome if you happen to come across an objectivist or a subjectivist who disagree with you?
For the objectivist I can ask: "what is your moral code and where did you see that rape is a moral good"? If the objectivist cannot give that evidence, then his is living inconsistently with his code and I can judge him as wrong, even on a code I don't accept. For the subjectivist, I cannot ask anything. He determined rape is good. If I was also a subjectivist, I would have no basis to disagree with how he views rape (for himself) even if I disagree. If I meet an Orthodox Jew, for example, who says that rape is a morally good action, I can ask where in his moral code does he find that? In the Torah or Talmud? In Jewish moral philosophy? The fact is, that doesn't exist. So I could judge that person wrong and immoral on his own standard.
In one case there is no problem while in the other the whole world falls into chaos because the subjectivist can not ground his morals in an objective authority?
The world falls into chaos in the subjectivist model because we have zero reference point by which to judge the moral value. A subjectivist (for example) claims that rape is ok. Then, in the subjectivist model, rape is ok. As a subjectivist, I would have to accept rape as that person's moral good. I have no basis by which I can say my morality is more correct than his. I say rape is evil, but that's just my personal opinion. An orthodox Jew says rape is ok, I can prove he is wrong based on his own standard. I can correct him and teach him and help him change his moral view. I cannot teach a subjectivist that his moral views are wrong. If he believes rape is good, then that's his moral value on his own moral code and I would have to accept it. That's why subjectivism is evil, from my point of view.Silver Asiatic
January 17, 2015
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hrun
If you bear with me I will walk you through the same scenario from my point of view. (I believe rape is wrong yet I come across both a subjectivist and objectivist who disagree with me.)
This would be a good example. The subjectivist can merely say "I disagree - rape is morally acceptable". The objectivist, however, has to reference a code and his view can be evaluated against it. The objectivist has a means to change or correct his moral behavior, the subjectivist does not. Good moral behavior for the objectivist is adherence to the code. There really can be no standard of good moral behavior for the subjectivist since the lawgiver, judge and defendent (if you will) are all the same person. In the subjectivist model, any act can be justified as immoral and later changed to moral if desired. There are no potential limits to behavior in the subjectivist model, and there are limits in objectivism. WJM says something similar in his reply.Silver Asiatic
January 17, 2015
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Any act can be accepted as moral in an objectivist model (depending on the model); the difference is that the objectivist model at least offers the capacity (potential) for for an act to be considered universally wrong/immoral and offers a sound basis for acting to prevent/stop such acts. It also offers a basis for a need to examine your own moral views to see if they are supportable or correct. They must hold up to scrutiny. Subjective morality doesn't offer any reason to scrutinize them for being "correct" or "valid", and indeed there is no way to do so; they are simply based on your personal feelings. Subjectivism necessarily (logically speaking) accepts any act as moral as long as the individual holds it to be moral, and reduces any prevention/intervention to a matter of "because I feel like it", or "because I can", or "because I want to", which as a guiding, fundamental moral justification necessarily justifies the very behavior in question. It is only if one holds that morality refers to objective rights and wrongs, and that we are obligated by a duty beyond mere personal preference to intervene in certain situations in defense of the moral good, that such intervention can be justified beyond mere personal predilection. Even if the other person holds that what they are doing is an objective good, because of the assumption of the objective nature of morality that you both hold, only one of you can be right about the moral nature of the at in question and - right or wrong - you at least have substantive grounds for prevention/intervening. However, since morality is considered objective, you have a duty to make every effort to exist in accordance with the moral good and not according to your own personal preferences, and a duty to understand the truth about morality even if it means amending your own beliefs. That is how we all argue about morality anyway. You are capable of being mistaken and having an obligation to amending your views only if morality is held to be something other than personal preference. Holding that morality is subjective while arguing that the moral views of others are "wrong" is a blatant self-contradiction.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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So, the objectivist cannot accept those acts as moral, but the subjectivist can.
Yet, there are millions that are in very high likelihood objectivists that disagree with you. So here's a hypothetical situation: A self-avowed moral objectivists disagrees with your position and he's simply wrong. A self-avowed moral subjectivists disagrees with you and he's also wrong (and delusional). [ A self-avowed moral subjectivist agrees with you and he might be right but he's still either delusional or a sociopath. - not really relevant for the next step. ] Now, in practical terms, what do you think is the different outcome if you happen to come across an objectivist or a subjectivist who disagree with you? In one case there is no problem while in the other the whole world falls into chaos because the subjectivist can not ground his morals in an objective authority? If you bear with me I will walk you through the same scenario from my point of view. (I believe rape is wrong yet I come across both a subjectivist and objectivist who disagree with me.)hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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KF #254
Jerad, do you forget your response to my earlier citation, “monkish”? Sorry, that’s your word and I responded to it by highlighting what the remarks on Mammon, money turned into a god, have historically been understood to mean. Jesus drew out the insight on blindness coming from such distorted ultimate loyalties, and the idolatry of greed. It of course applies a lot more widely than that. KF
Yes but I was not advocating greed as a moral standard at all. I should have said aesthetic I guess. WJM 253
Without an objective morality, there is no morality worth considering because what you end up with is “I do what I feel like doing.” The only reason to dress that up with a term like “morality” is to make it seem like you are doing something other than just whatever you feel like doing.
I don't think that way or feel that way or justify my views in those ways. You have this view of people which is very narrow and based on your assumptions. I do not think people doing what they always feel like doing is a sane or sensible moral grounding. For myself I tend to find my own motivations and behaviour roughly in line with many Christian teachings and they make sense to me.
Under actual moral subjectivism, such acts are no more hideous, in and of themselves, than any other. They are just subjectively unpalatable to you personally. Calling them “hideous”, under moral subjectivism, is the same thing as calling gay marriage and women bishops “hideous”. It’s just how you personally feel compared to how others feel with no principle or premise that grants any logical distinction between them.
No, it has to do with whether or not other people are being hurt or abused and the degree of it.
Are you saying only people on one side of those issues are being “rationally consistent with how we must live life”?
Note the irrational comparison (under moral subjectivism) you just made between “hideous” acts like murder and “non-hideous” acts like gay marriage, as if you were referencing some principle offering an objective distinction that others logically must agree to, one which shows one to be morally “hideous” and the other not.
Again, murder, rape, sexual abuse and such things are causing another person pain and suffering and maybe death. My scale of hideousnees tends to be based on the amount of pain and suffering induced. Since I don't see allowing gay couples to marry or women to become bishops to cause any real suffering then I cannot find them morally repugnant.
You have no such barometer available under subjectivism, no moral compass that we can all check to see which direction is north (good). All you can be doing here is hoping I happen to “feel” the same way you do about it; thus it is not a logical argument that (so-called) moral subjectivists can offer, but rather only one of appealing to emotions and rhetoric.
In fact I focus on the effects actions and opinions have on other people. I am not appealing to rhetoric but as there can be emotional pain and suffering then that may enter in. Don't hurt or abuse other people, that's one of my central themes. If you do then you should expect to punished or restricted in society in some way. I don't see how my own feelings come into that. I can see that some issues would need a bit of clarification but I think my basic stance is a good place to start.Jerad
January 17, 2015
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hrun
I agree. How about you answer my question: “A objectivist can accept revenge killing as perfectly moral.” If you disagree, you need to explain why revenge killing cannot be accepted as a morally good value in the objectivist model. What prevents that?
I offered a softer example. But substitute child rape, murder for pleasure and unjustified theft for revenge killing. What prevents those acts in the objective model is that there are no objective codes that one can adopt that permit any of those acts. So, the objectivist cannot accept those acts as moral, but the subjectivist can.Silver Asiatic
January 17, 2015
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@kf:
naturally evident creation order
?? I believe "man-man-love" can be a naturally evident creation order. This is indeed self-evident to the parties concerned.JWTruthInLove
January 17, 2015
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JW, I showed how Jesus pointed to the naturally evident creation order for marriage and family. I have already pointed out the implications of tampering with such, as we are increasingly doing in our civilisation. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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@kf 251: Why are you quoting the stuff? I've already provided the bible-proof, that the writers of the bible disliked the homos. I have also linked to the trinitarian agenda to execute or inprison the homos. We have a case of trinitarians selling their subjective opinions as objective, undenieable truths. Read, listen and ponder!JWTruthInLove
January 17, 2015
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Jerad, do you forget your response to my earlier citation, "monkish"? Sorry, that's your word and I responded to it by highlighting what the remarks on Mammon, money turned into a god, have historically been understood to mean. Jesus drew out the insight on blindness coming from such distorted ultimate loyalties, and the idolatry of greed. It of course applies a lot more widely than that. KF PS: Read and listen to the already linked on agenda. Then ponder this object lesson from Ac 27 on what can happen to Democracy at the hands of the manipulative. As in, historically, the march of folly is all too possible.kairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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Jerad said:
That sounds pretty subjective to me, considering how (it’s obvious) that different people come up with different standards when they follow their conscience.
Everything in the objective world is ultimately experienced and interpreted individually. One can debate whether or not the evidence indicates that morality is an objective commodity, but the logic demands that we assume it is objective. Please note that I'm not saying the logic proves it is objective in nature; nobody can prove morality is objective in nature. It's a question of what we must assume in order to have a morality worth considering in the first place. Without an objective morality, there is no morality worth considering because what you end up with is "I do what I feel like doing." The only reason to dress that up with a term like "morality" is to make it seem like you are doing something other than just whatever you feel like doing. Morality is a code of conduct; if a moral subjectivist has a code of conduct, it is a code tailor-fit around their own feelings. As far as I can tell, the only reason for such a tailor-made "code" is to simply hide the nakedness underneath, that you're just doing what you feel like doing in the first place.
I’m not thinking of murder or rape or such hideous acts. Rather I’m thinking of things like gay marriage and women bishops.
Under actual moral subjectivism, such acts are no more hideous, in and of themselves, than any other. They are just subjectively unpalatable to you personally. Calling them "hideous", under moral subjectivism, is the same thing as calling gay marriage and women bishops "hideous". It's just how you personally feel compared to how others feel with no principle or premise that grants any logical distinction between them.
Are you saying only people on one side of those issues are being “rationally consistent with how we must live life”?
Note the irrational comparison (under moral subjectivism) you just made between "hideous" acts like murder and "non-hideous" acts like gay marriage, as if you were referencing some principle offering an objective distinction that others logically must agree to, one which shows one to be morally "hideous" and the other not. You have no such barometer available under subjectivism, no moral compass that we can all check to see which direction is north (good). All you can be doing here is hoping I happen to "feel" the same way you do about it; thus it is not a logical argument that (so-called) moral subjectivists can offer, but rather only one of appealing to emotions and rhetoric.
Do you think people who shoot abortion doctors are attempting to force other to abide by their view of what is morally correct?
Just adopting the view that morality stems from an objective source doesn't in itself make all of one's moral views rationally consistent; it is the beginning of the construction of a sound moral framework. For instance, divine command morality is based on an objective moral source, but that system renders morality an arbitrary commodity that can change due to the whim of God. Such a kind of objective morality leads to problems that are as bad as subjective morality - IE, people justifying any action they wish by invoking "Divine Command", or "god told me to do it" or "it says so in the holy book". Please note, you can only be doing one of two things when you make use of the example of killing an abortion doctor: 1. You can be pleading to what you hope is a similar emotional view (my feelings) under moral subjectivism in the hopes that your words will have an impact on me emotionally and thus alter my personal, subjective view of morality; 2. You can be referring (even if subconscously) to what some part of you considers an objective moral grounding that others (like myself) should be able to recognize and should be able to use as a logical means of evaluating our own moral views objectively, with not only the capacity to change those views, but the presumed obligation to do so when those views are logically demonstrated to be in error. The problem is that under moral subjectivism, there is absolutely no logical reason for me to even care about your argument because my morality is just how I happen to feel about such things, and that is all it can be for you or anyone. What you would be attempting to do here, under moral relativism, is the equivalent of attempting to change my mind about being in love with my wife with zero reference to any objective reason for why I should stop loving her and only because you happen to personally dislike my wife. You're attempting to get me to change my personal feelings even while you admit my personal feelings are just as valid as your own! Under moral subjectivism, all you can be doing in this argument is attempting to emotionally manipulate others into changing their personal, subjective morality into being more in line with your own. What sound principle can possibly motivate and justify this desire/effort to change what moral subjectivists claim are nothing but the personal feelings of others? On the other hand, moral objectivists argue and debate because the consider morality to be an objective commodity with necessary consequences for us all and ultimately for the very existence we cohabit; moral subjectivists have no reason to argue other than from the simple, selfish desire to get others to subjectively feel the same way they do about various behaviors. Moral objectivism offers the capacity to have a logical debate about what is actually moral by necessarily assuming morality has some sort of objective basis, and offers a sound reason why individuals should attempt to find and live in accordance with that morality, and why it matters to be moral instead of immoral. Subjective morality only offers rhetorical manipulations vial emotional pleading by those who just want others to give into their emotional pleading for no reason other than that it will make them feel better.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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KF #251
Red herring sliding away off track. As predicted. Let’s call a word: greed. Is that what you are advocating as a standard for economic life?
I don't think you'll find that I was advocating anything. I was firstly asking for your opinion, which I think I got. And secondly I was just observing that I hadn't seen a particular line of thinking overly promulgated in Christian circles when it seems (to me) to be inline with some Christian views. Don't put words in my mouth.
Jesus warned that greed . . . the idolatry of money where it takes over the loyalties of life to God and neighbour . . . is morally and intellectually and spiritually blinding, something that we acknowledge everytime we ask who paid for study X.
He was pretty smart!!
The arbitrary declarations under false colour of law in our time, that serve an admitted destructive end, cannot change such patent facts.
Democracy isn't perfect but it's hard to find anything better.Jerad
January 17, 2015
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Jerad, Red herring sliding away off track. As predicted. Let's call a word: greed. Is that what you are advocating as a standard for economic life? Jesus warned that greed . . . the idolatry of money where it takes over the loyalties of life to God and neighbour . . . is morally and intellectually and spiritually blinding, something that we acknowledge everytime we ask who paid for study X. MT The Sermon on the Mount is not in question, you are. JWT: Most interesting. The same Jesus who said to the woman thrown down at his feet having been caught in adultery [with the Levitical penalty on covenant breach involved]: neither do I condemn you go leave your life of sin said this:
Matt 19:3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Which, is naturally manifest, as I hinted at above. The arbitrary declarations under false colour of law in our time, that serve an admitted destructive end, cannot change such patent facts. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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KF #247
Money, and other addictive divided loyalties warp our ability to recognise what should be plain, evident truth. And worse, they motivate us to cling to absurdities, warping and benumbing conscience and blinding minds. So, we must first see to it that foundations are set right.
So, I think you're acknowledging, that you would consider anyone who disagrees with you about gay marriages, Christians and non-Christians to be following a false path. It makes no difference to me, I'm just trying to figure out how you see the moral landscape. But I think you've made it as clear as you're going to. In light of your quoted comment I do find it surprising that there aren't more calls for a return to a monkish, riches-renouncing existence/practice for Christians. I know there are still those who do feel that calling. Interesting that it's not more widely touted though. None of my business. Just observing.Jerad
January 17, 2015
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KF @ 247
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
That's an insult to all blind people.Me_Think
January 17, 2015
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It's unhealthy being a homo:
Local Pastor Calls For Death of 'Queers & Homosexuals'
Tempe pastor's message: Execute gay people to cure AIDS
A man’s body is designed to be complementary with a woman’s body and vice versa. All of the confusion about whether same-sex relations are licit would be swept away in an instant if everyone acknowledged this obvious truth.
Lev 20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
The Ugandan parliament on Friday finally approved a controversial bill that outlaws homosexuality, condemning members of the LGBT community to life in prison should they be caught engaging in homosexual activity.
...
JWTruthInLove
January 17, 2015
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Jerad, I remind you of the text above, from the most famous sermon of all time:
Matt 6:19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[e] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.[f]
Money, and other addictive divided loyalties warp our ability to recognise what should be plain, evident truth. And worse, they motivate us to cling to absurdities, warping and benumbing conscience and blinding minds. So, we must first see to it that foundations are set right. As Paul warned us all but especially those who profess Christian discipleship:
Eph 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous [-->benumbed in conscience and insight] and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,[f] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness . . . . Eph 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3 But sexual immorality [--> a very broad term is used, porneia] and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not become partners with them; 8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret . . .
KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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KF #245
J, tell us, what is the naturally evident purpose of the differing genital and related organs men and women have, and how that relates to the well known long term requisites of child nurture. Thence, tell us about how marriage naturally links to such. (Take a moment to ponder the havoc therefore wrought by widespread divorce and the warping of our understanding that such inherently creates.) Then, ask yourself what will happen when what is inherently disordered, notoriously insanitary and unhealthy, consequently disease-spreading and more is imposed by force and manipulation under false colour of law and long since falsified claims about genetic in-stamping, warping the foundational institutions of civilisation — marriage and family; pushed into the formal and informal education systems by those who should know better.
I'm not asking for you opinion about gay marriage; I'm asking you to explain how it is that sincere and faithful Christians who are all following their consciences can disagree so strongly on some issues which some consider objective moral issues. Do you think the Christians with whom you disagree with on the gay marriage issue are deluded? Are they really subjectivists?Jerad
January 17, 2015
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