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Not Unbroken

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I am broken.

I am not alone though.  You are broken too.  In fact, the whole world and everyone in it is broken.  We recognize that there is the way things are and there is the way things should be and the two are not the same.

What shall we make of this universal awareness of our own brokenness in particular and the world’s brokenness in general?  Denying the awareness exists does no good.  It is there.  It is glaring.  It stares each of us in the face every day.  Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.

So there it is; our awareness of our and the world’s brokenness.  It exists and any thinking person must try to account for its existence.  It cannot be ignored.  How did that awareness come to be?  Is the awareness based on something real or is it an illusion?

For Jews and Christians, of course, these are easy questions.  We believe in a transcendent moral standard rooted in God’s character.  God has not established the Good.  He is the Good, and all goodness flows from him.  Each of us (whether we say we believe in God or not) innately understands that Goodness exists and that we all fall short of measuring up to it.  I don’t understand why the doctrine of original sin is so controversial.  Of all the doctrines of Christianity, it is the one that is supported by what I would think to be undeniable empirical evidence based on our own personal day-to-day experience and thousands of years of recorded history.

For the materialist, however, it seems to me that the question is all but unanswerable.  At least since Hume we have known that “ought” cannot be grounded in “is.”  The materialist believes that “is” is all there is.  It follows there is nothing on which to ground “ought.”  This is what Dawkins means when he says there is no good and no bad.  On materialist premises – if there really is no good and no bad — there is no reason to believe I and the world are broken.  As Lewis famously said, a man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.  And the materialist denies the existence of straight lines.

Yet that awareness of our own and the world’s brokenness persists nevertheless even for materialists.  The standard Darwinist line, of course, is that the moral impulse is an evolutionary adaptation, and they delight in making up just so stories about why this or that altruistic behavior is adaptive, when they are not making up stories for why the opposite of that behavior is also adaptive.  Altruism is adaptive.  Sure.  But so is rape and murder.  Hmmm.

But when it comes to our awareness of our and the world’s brokenness, none of those stories matters.  We are not talking about individual behaviors that may or may not have been adaptive in the remote evolutionary past.  We are talking about the fact that we all know that a straight line exists and therefore we can call crooked lines crooked, even when we deny knowing any such thing.  I suppose some Darwinist will be able to make up a just so story to explain why this is the case; after all the Darwinist capacity for story telling seems to be limitless.  But I doubt any such story will convince anyone who is not already convinced.  For those of us who are unable to muster the tremendous leaps of faith necessary to become and remain a materialist, the story is likely to be implausible to say the least.

Comments
PS: J -- at risk of allowing side-tracking into red herrings and ad hominem laced strawmen set alight to poison and polarise the atmosphere, tell us, what is the naturally evident purpose of the differing genital and related organs men and women have, and how that relates to the well known long term requisites of child nurture. Thence, tell us about how marriage naturally links to such. (Take a moment to ponder the havoc therefore wrought by widespread divorce and the warping of our understanding that such inherently creates.) Then, ask yourself what will happen when what is inherently disordered, notoriously insanitary and unhealthy, consequently disease-spreading and more is imposed by force and manipulation under false colour of law and long since falsified claims about genetic in-stamping, warping the foundational institutions of civilisation -- marriage and family; being pushed into the formal and informal education systems by those who should know better. Then, ponder the implications of this warning in Scripture:
Isa 5:18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, who draw sin as with cart ropes . . . 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
kairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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KF #243
And, if you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that we share a common God-given nature and endowment of value that gives us rights, please think again about the implications of “survival of the fittest” in light of the history of the past 100 years or so. Then, at least acknowledge that those of us who do think like that in the Judaeo-Christian tradition do ave a framework for grounding OUGHT and drawing out its implications for living under the civil peace of justice with neighbours who are of the same nature as ourselves. One, that is grounded in recognising the general testimony of conscience and mind [rejecting general delusion], and then grounding the binding nature of OUGHT in the IS that can properly ground it: the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being.
I still find it terribly confusing that there are so many conflicting Christians views on things like gay marriage, women bishops, abortion, evolution, etc. If it's a matter of conscience and mind then why the disagreements? Are you saying some Christians are NOT listening to their inner voice properly? Are they delusional? And if we look at some of the historical doctrinal disagreements there was much bloodshed settling the questions. I note that in the US (where something like two-thirds of the population believe that some kind of designer was involved with the biological development of human beings) a majority of states have legalised gay marriage. Are a majority of Americans deluded in some way? I hear you saying there is some central 'truth' that we can tap into but you seem to be in deep disagreement (over gay marriage) with some of your fellow believers who will also claim to have followed their conscience. I'm not creating a strawman, I'm merely pointing out there doesn't seem to be an agreed upon central 'truth'.Jerad
January 17, 2015
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Jerad (and RH7 et al), Let's start with something historically important. Something, I have had to draw attention to ever so many times. Locke, in Ch 2 sect 5 of his 2nd essay on civil gov't, in the aftermath of the Glorious Revolution of 1688; grounding what would become the basis of modern liberty and democracy. The seed-plot from which the American Revolution of a century later would come, which -- once it plainly succeeded -- became the historic root-stock of modern liberty and democratic self-government by free peoples. (Cf. here on.) Here, Locke cites "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard] Hooker" from his 1594+ Ecclesiastical Polity; in a context of thought tracing to both Judaeo-Christian scripture and Aristotle that also affected Justinian's Corpus Juris Civilis and Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England. Laying out, conscience guided principles of morally coherent reasoning and how they lead to specific precepts for the civil peace of justice in the community:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
The echo of Paul's summary of core Judaeo-Christian morality, drawing on Jesus' famous sermon cited above, could not be plainer:
Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [or, harm] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]
And again:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . .
Now, Locke in section 5 of the introduction to his essay on human understanding:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Text references added to document the sources of Locke's allusions and citations.]
First, pause. Ask yourself why something so pivotal is nowadays not generally recognised, widely discussed and appreciated. Indeed, is largely forgotten. What is that telling us about what has become of our education systems as they speak to civics and basic ethics applicable to community life and citizenship, whether formal or informal? Jesus had a highly relevant statement on such darkness pretending to be light, in the already cited Sermon that I think deliberately echoes and responds to Plato's Parable of the Cave:
Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! [ESV]
And, the root of the objectivity that brings sound rational insight to bear (as opposed to en-darkenment due to shadow shows in a cave masquerading as enlightenment, so called) is patent . . . Hooker, again:
my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like
But then how many really know much less understand the direct extension of this in the US DoI of 1776:
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .
Notice, the reference to laws of nature and of Nature's God, and the immediate reference to self-evident moral truths. (Something which, for instance appears in the Dutch DoI of 1581, the first of modern times; which in turn builds on Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos of 1579, in a specifically Calvinistic Reformation context, e.g.: "what the law of nature dictates for the defense of liberty, which we ought to transmit to posterity, even at the hazard of our lives . . .") In short, truths that once we understand the matter based on our experience of the world as self-aware, conscious, en-conscienced minded people we recognise as true and as necessarily true on pain of immediate absurdity on attempted denial. In this case through hopeless inconsistencies: if we have a reasonable expectation of respect to life, liberty and pursuit of fulfillment of creational purpose and calling, so do those who are as we are in nature. So, to deny equal rights and justice to those who are as ourselves, is incoherent folly. And directly -- as Aristotle aptly outlined -- "That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like." In Paul's words:
the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong [or, harm] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
In short these primary points of obedience to the law of our nature as morally governed responsibly free and rational creatures are not arbitrary or hard to understand. And of course, that is what the law of our nature is about, our core insight into justice being rooted in our self-aware, conscience-illuminated, intelligently minded sense of our inherent value and responsible freedom and rationality. Multiplied by, our having neighbours who are as ourselves. So, again . . . "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard] Hooker":
"my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant."
If your view of the Judaeo-Christian position on core ethics and on the grounding of OUGHT does not align with these things, it is inaccurate and/or misinformed. And, if you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that we share a common God-given nature and endowment of value that gives us rights, please think again about the implications of "survival of the fittest" in light of the history of the past 100 years or so. Then, at least acknowledge that those of us who do think like that in the Judaeo-Christian tradition do ave a framework for grounding OUGHT and drawing out its implications for living under the civil peace of justice with neighbours who are of the same nature as ourselves. One, that is grounded in recognising the general testimony of conscience and mind [rejecting general delusion], and then grounding the binding nature of OUGHT in the IS that can properly ground it: the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. The time for dangerously loaded strawman caricatures is over. The times are far too dangerous for such errors to stand uncorrected. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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WJM #241
The issue here isn’t the particulars (should I do this, and not that?) – conscience is our sensory guide and reason our interpreter when it comes to navigating morality.
That sounds pretty subjective to me, considering how (it's obvious) that different people come up with different standards when they follow their conscience. I'm not thinking of murder or rape or such hideous acts. Rather I'm thinking of things like gay marriage and women bishops. Are you saying only people on one side of those issues are being "rationally consistent with how we must live life"? Do you think people who shoot abortion doctors are attempting to force other to abide by their view of what is morally correct?Jerad
January 16, 2015
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Jerad said:
You see what I mean? I’m finding it hard to figure out what your objective moral standard is.
If there is an objective moral standard, then like gravity, you don't require anyone's help in figuring out how to navigate it (at least to operational functionality). You don't have to read a book to know not to jump off a cliff. The issue here isn't the particulars (should I do this, and not that?) - conscience is our sensory guide and reason our interpreter when it comes to navigating morality. The issue here is establishing a moral premise that is rationally consistent with how we must live life - at least if we're not sociopaths.William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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Jerad said:
If you’re an ‘objectivist’ then you need to have a acknowledged standard that can be applied in all cases to resolve moral issues. Correct?
Certainly not. The issue is whether or not, logically speaking, morality must be grounded as subjective or objective in order for it to make any sense. That's the only step necessary here: subjective morality is nothing more than (in boiled-down principle) different people forcing others to behave how they prefer because they feel like doing so. I contend that is a self-evidently immoral proposition. You shouldn't force your will on others simply because of strongly felt personal preferences. Think of morality like gravity; you don't need a book or instruction to tell you how to navigate gravity in your every-day life; it's sewn into the fabric of existence. There may be many books that purport to explain morality in greater detail, just as there may be many theories of gravity. However, accepting that it is objective in nature changes your perspective of not only it, but existence and yourself as well. They are two entirely different ways of looking at life.William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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Dumb and Dumber. Show me a subjectivist who isn't an objectivist. Show me a subjectivist who doesn't think everyone else OUGHT TO BE a subjectivist.Mung
January 16, 2015
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Here's another way to think about my questions . . . Let's say I'm an 'subjectivist' who thinks: hang on, these guys have a point, there does have to be an objective moral code. I'm going to look for the one that makes the most sense. So, how do I pick amongst the competing codes? Muslim? Jewish? Hindu? Sikh? Jain? Zoroastrian? Christian? Ba'hai? Shintu? Which one? AND, if I (say) pick Christianity then how do I decide amongst the varying Christians versions? Catholic? Protestant? Eastern Orthodox? Jehovah's Witness? Mormon? (They say they are Christians, who decides?) From the outside it looks pretty chaotic even amongst the Protestants: some Protestants are okay with evolution, some are not; some Protestants are okay with abortion, some are not; some Protestants are okay with homosexual marriage, some are not. You see what I mean? I'm finding it hard to figure out what your objective moral standard is. And I know that in the past Christians have killed fellow Christians over disagreements of their beliefs so you'll have to explain why your version is 'right' 'cause I know there's been disputes. A lot.Jerad
January 16, 2015
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Pardon me for asking a rather dumb series of questions but: If you're an 'objectivist' then you need to have a acknowledged standard that can be applied in all cases to resolve moral issues. Correct? A Christian 'objectivist' would no doubt refer to the Bible and/or some interpretation therein. So . . .how does one choose between different interpretations? Clearly, presently and in the past, Christians (as an example) have differed greatly in their interpretations of their moral code. What decision making process resolves the conflicts? Also, how does one include new 'cases' which are not explicitly included in the standard? This may just be a matter of interpretation of the standard. AND . . . how does one pick between the major objective codes? Meaning: why favour a Christian code over a Muslim one or a Jewish one or a Buddhist one or a Jainist one or a Shintu one or a Zoroastrian one or a Hindu one or a Sikh one or . . . What guides the initial general selection? I'm asking because I find it very hard to figure out what anyone's objective code actually is. Some Christians are okay with homosexual marriage, other are not. It doesn't sound very object to me if the proclaimed adherents can't agree. The Church of England recently agreed to accept women bishops. What was the problem? Clearly there was a difference in a moral standard.Jerad
January 16, 2015
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Under moral subjectivism, since what is moral by definition depends on that individual’s personal preferences and proclivities, you (as a logically consistent moral relativist) have no grounds for identifying what someone else is doing as being “immoral”. I'm just finishing a meeting and heading to dinner, so I hope to come back and engage more later. But I saw this and wanted to respond, because we've had this conversation before. You have constructed a version of moral subjectivism that has no relationship to the real world, or actual subjectivists. It does not make logical sense because you designed it to be illogical; what difference does that make, when it is not a reflection of how actual human beings think or behave? If Alan sees Betty commit an action, Alan may judge Betty's actions by his own standards and say, "That was immoral." If Alan is a subjectivist, he will acknowledge that Betty probably disagrees, and that no objective standard exists to resolve the dispute. But he still uses his own moral code to assess Betty's actions. The first step of that process--"That was immoral!"--doesn't go away. Alan does in fact have "grounds for identifying what someone else is doing as being 'immoral.'" Nor is he required to surrender his judgment because Betty disagrees, even in the absence of an objective standard. Why would he? He has his own moral beliefs, which he prefers--if he preferred Betty's, he would adopt them. Subjectivists may and often do believe that their moral beliefs should be applied to other people. We merely acknowledge that those other people are likely to have their own moral codes, and rely on tools other than appeals to an objective standard to resolve disputes. As do objectivists, in practice. This thread has been a fairly steady march of UDers painting grotesque caricatures of moral relativists--sociopaths, liars, moral perverts--and declaring, "This is how those filth think!" It's not. You, Stephen, Barry and others seem to derive a lot of personal satisfaction from putting horns and fangs on the straw man, but it's still a straw man.Learned Hand
January 16, 2015
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Mark Frank said:
Matters to whom? It matters to me very much if mass murderers get their way.
Your personal preference is duly noted. Ultimately, all of your moral arguments boil down to "because I prefer it that way", which would be no different from a subjectivist-morality argument for mass murder. Your willingness to force personal preference on others would be equal to a similar willingness on the part of the mass murderers.
I as I hope I made clear that is sometimes the case – if my preferences are also moral in nature and deep enough. I also pointed out that you would in practice behave in the same way. Do you agree?
You say this as if "personal preferences" and "morality" are two separate things, or as if morals are something in addition to being personal preferences. However, under subjective morality, others may define "what is moral" differently than you, and may not concern themselves with how "deeply" they feel about a personal preference when interacting with others. Thus, such considerations are entirely irrelevant when debating subjective morality. The fact is, under subjective morality (if one lives in logical accordance with it and honestly describes the nature of it), morality is nothing more than personal preference, and acting on it is entirely a matter of personal predilection. Therefore, if one feels it is moral to take slaves or beat their children, it is moral by subjectivist definition. Under moral subjectivism, since what is moral by definition depends on that individual's personal preferences and proclivities, you (as a logically consistent moral relativist) have no grounds for identifying what someone else is doing as being "immoral". Only that individual can say what is moral for themselves. Under moral subjectivism, morality doesn't exist as a transpersonal commodity; it is entirely subjective. You have no means by which to evaluate the moral nature of the actions of others. You might say that such behavior would be immoral if you were to engage in it; but it is not you who is engaging in it. Alternatively, you might say that your morality (preferential feeling) dictates that you force others to comply with your feelings on those occasions, but such action cannot be justified by referring to their actions as "immoral" because that is not logically possible under moral subjectivisim. Thus, if you were to force others to comply with your morality, it cannot be "because" they are behaving immorally. It can only be on the basis that, in your moral system, simply forcing others to do as you wish because you feel like it is acceptably moral. Needless to say, that can justify any behavior as "moral". Quite simply, true moral subjectivism is the conscious admission that one is simply forcing their personal preferences on others to whatever degree and in whatever manner they see fit, and living however they feel like living at the time. In principle, the difference between that and being a sociopath is just a matter of degree. It's not a categorical difference.
I also pointed out that you would in practice behave in the same way. Do you agree?
I can unequivocally say that I behaved entirely differently during my several-year stint as a moral subjectivist - but then, I was an actual moral subjectivist, not just someone that argues the intellectual point out of ideological bias.William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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RH7, evidently you have a problem with understanding the Judaeo-Christian frame of ethics. Accordingly, I now lay out for you the main summary of the core of that ethics, as taught by its main teacher in his most famous sermon. Indeed, the most famous sermon of all time: _______________ >> Matthew 5-7English Standard Version (ESV) The Sermon on the Mount 5 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. The Beatitudes 2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: 3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. 5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. 9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God. 10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Salt and Light 13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet. 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that[b] they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Christ Came to Fulfill the Law 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Anger 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[e] of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.[f] Lust 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. Divorce 31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Oaths 33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.[g] Retaliation 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[h] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. Love Your Enemies 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Giving to the Needy 6 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. The Lord's Prayer 5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.[j] 10 Your kingdom come, your will be done,[k] on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread,[l] 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.[m] 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Fasting 16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Lay Up Treasures in Heaven 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[n] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.[o] Do Not Be Anxious 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[p] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. 34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. Judging Others 7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. Ask, and It Will Be Given 7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! The Golden Rule 12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[q] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. A Tree and Its Fruit 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. I Never Knew You 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Build Your House on the Rock 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” The Authority of Jesus 28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. >> _______________ I will tell you that a view of the ethics of Christian discipleship that is materially at odds with this, is simply wrong. And, if you want an in a nutshell on the Christian in community, here is the Apostle to the nations, in a key summary passage:
Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [or, harm] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Yes, Christians will struggle with such. Yes, there are many special duties or circumstances such as the civil authority who must bear the sword in defence of the civil peace of justice from its enemies, foreign and domestic. Yes, there are complexities of application and more. Yes, but such will always come back to the core. Yes, we are finite, fallible, morally struggling, seeking to grow. But, that describes any serious-minded morally upright person. Please, think again. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2015
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KF 189, And at the top of the list of moral priorities is obedience to God. So if he will that you slaughter every man, woman, and child (including the newly born) of a people, you do so regardless of all other moral principles, which are necessarily of lesser moral concern.rhampton7
January 16, 2015
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I was proposing: “A subectivist sees …” That is not “All subjectivists see”. To make it clearer, I could have said “A subjectivist can accept revenge killing as perfectly moral.” If you disagree, you need to explain why revenge killing cannot be accepted as a morally good value in the subjectivist model. What prevents that?
I agree. How about you answer my question: “A objectivist can accept revenge killing as perfectly moral.” If you disagree, you need to explain why revenge killing cannot be accepted as a morally good value in the objectivist model. What prevents that?hrun0815
January 16, 2015
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Subjectivism permits any human actions as being morally good.
And just because this one stands out yet again: This is incorrect. Subjectivism, just like objectivism, let's any individual judge their own actions as moral or immoral. Subjectivism, just like objectivism, let's any individual judge the actions of others as moral or immoral. In all cases only the individual can judge any action as moral or immoral. Individuals might find groups where there is a general agreement on morality (e.g. religions, states, organizations, ...) but this does not mean that the group (or the moral belief system) can decide for an individual if it will see any action as moral or not.hrun0815
January 16, 2015
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Hrun
I follow this up by pointing out that indeed this is not how a subjectivist sees revenge killing.
I was proposing: "A subectivist sees ..." That is not "All subjectivists see". To make it clearer, I could have said "A subjectivist can accept revenge killing as perfectly moral." If you disagree, you need to explain why revenge killing cannot be accepted as a morally good value in the subjectivist model. What prevents that?Silver Asiatic
January 16, 2015
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MF:
I find mass murder so very (subjectively) morally wrong that I feel justified in preventing people doing it.
You're applying a subjectivist, personal moral standard to others, as if it is something objective. That's where this is inconsistent. You've elevated your own personal, subjective morality over the personal, subjective morality of others. This is a hierarchical model - your values are more moral than those of others. You don't have a basis to make that decision though. You cannot determine that the mass murderer is acting immorally since he has his own subjective moral values which permit mass murder. His acts are morally good for him, but you would prevent him from those acts. You could say the same about any human action, for example. You could morally oppose the expression of religion (or homosexuality or political speech) and could prevent others from that expression since your subjective morality would make suppression of others a moral mandate. You'd be perfectly justified in oppressing others in the subjectivist model on that very basis.Silver Asiatic
January 16, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: A subjectivist sees revenge killing as moral. No amount of education can help him cannot choose to see it as immoral.
I follow this up by pointing out that indeed this is not how a subjectivist sees revenge killing. And indeed, I also point out that it is quite likely that seeing revenge killing as moral is a position held more commonly in objectivists. So the whole premise is clearly wrong. Yet, this does not dissuade you from pontification about how you know what subjectivism entails, what subjectivists are supposed to believe, ... In the end you fall back onto the WJM argument: 'Liar' or 'Sociopath'-- take your pick.hrun0815
January 16, 2015
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hrun
You say this, but I am willing to bet that you are unable to show that moral subjectivists are more likely to see revenge killing as moral.
The debate is about a moral system, not about what a certain individual thinks. The system is what it is. Individuals can hold wildly inconsistent and irrational positions. Atheists can talk like theists. Subjectivists can act like Christians. That means nothing. We don't judge the system by talking to individuals but by what the system is in itself. To become a moral subjectivist, I don't need to talk to any subjectivists. I can understand what the moral system is, and apply it to myself. This is not a sociological question. It's a question of an intellectual position and what it entails. What is the meaning of stoicism or epicureanism? This can be discussed and understood without ever having to meet a single Stoic or Epicurean.
For example, my guess is that in devout Muslim countries that likely have a high proportion of moral objectivists the rate of revenge and honor killings is likely very high.
And that is perfectly acceptable in the subjectivist model. There is nothing good or evil about revenge killings as acts. Terrorism is a moral choice. In the subjectivist model, terrorism is morally good for any subjectivist to accept. Or it is morally evil on the same basis - personal choice. That's the key issue that you seem to resist here. You have to understand what subjectivism is and what it permits and entails. If a subjectivist decides that terrorism is a moral act, then it is morally good in the subjectivist model.
Yes, in predominantly secular nations, let’s pick Sweden or Finland the rate of revenge killings is likely low. And if you feel like it you can go ahead and break down such killing in individual countries into like moral objectivists and subjectivists. You might be surprised.
You're applying some sort of moral judgements in a sociological context. But you're avoiding the point - you can't proceed until you understand it. In the subjectivist model, moral killings are morally good for those who choose them as a moral good value. You are resisting that truth.
Of course, you might also be surprised to find that every single morals subjectivist here in this thread will tell you that they DO NOT see revenge killings a moral.
Again, we're not taking a survey of people's opinions, but looking at a moral system. The system is what it is. We already explained it. Subjectivism permits any human actions as being morally good. That's the point you need to deal with. Talking about population trends says nothing. You have to either refute or accept the point: The subjectivist model accepts any and every human action has having equal moral status - it can be assigned as good or evil by any and every individual, for whatever reason. Terrorism can be chosen as morally good in the subjectivist model. That's a point that you need to affirm.
In fact, I’m sitting here at the computer with my mouth agape slowly shaking my head as I type this since it is incomprehensible to me that you could be under such a misconception.
I'm open to your counter-point regarding what subjectivsm is. Subjective is an intellectual construct. A model for moral behavior. Any human action has equal moral value under that system. Terrorism, rape, genocide, torture -- all can be selected as morally good under subjectivism. You've said nothing to refute that point.Silver Asiatic
January 16, 2015
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WMJ #224 I forgot to answer the first part.
Then your answer is that it is moral to force what are ultimately personal preferences on others.
I as I hope I made clear that is sometimes the case - if my preferences are also moral in nature and deep enough. I also pointed out that you would in practice behave in the same way. Do you agree?Mark Frank
January 16, 2015
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Thus, the only thing that really matters (in any real terms) when it comes to morality is not a question about “morality” at all, but rather who has the greater power (in whatever sense matters) to enforce their preferences on others, correct?
Matters to whom? It matters to me very much if mass murderers get their way. Or do you mean that which moral gets implemented is a question of who has the greatest power? That is of course empirically true as we see round the world. It is bads news and (subjectively) immoral from the point of view of the losers. Luckily for you and I who have broadly similar ideas about morality we also have the power at the moment.Mark Frank
January 16, 2015
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Mark Frank, Then your answer is that it is moral to force what are ultimately personal preferences on others. Correct? Therefore, by definition, mass murderers are behaving as morally as you, by their own equally valid moral perspective, correct? Thus, the only thing that really matters (in any real terms) when it comes to morality is not a question about "morality" at all, but rather who has the greater power (in whatever sense matters) to enforce their preferences on others, correct?William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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Is it moral to force what are ultimately personal preferences (no matter how strongly felt) on others?
Surprisingly, for a moral subjectivist and a moral objectivist that depends on the situation. How about you give me a situation where you feel it is moral and one where it is not and I will tell you what I think about it.hrun0815
January 16, 2015
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#219 WJM Answer - it depends - I am balancing my disapproval of forcing people to do things they don't want to do against my disapproval of what I am preventing them doing. I find mass murder so very (subjectively) morally wrong that I feel justified in preventing people doing it. I find turning up late for dinner very mildly immoral and it can only justify a mild complaint. All of which is much the same as you would do I think. I don't think you would find it moral to force people to accept some of the milder aspects of the natural moral law. It is of course one the repellent aspects of IS etc that they find it moral to enforce relatively mild aspects of their law.Mark Frank
January 16, 2015
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So how do we test that your morals are more true than mine?
You don't. You can't test of morals are true in general. You can only try to figure out what your morals are. Counterquestion. Andre, so how do we test that your morals are more true than mine?hrun0815
January 16, 2015
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A subjectivist sees revenge killing as moral. No amount of education can help him cannot choose to see it as immoral.
You say this, but I am willing to bet that you are unable to show that moral subjectivists are more likely to see revenge killing as moral. For example, my guess is that in devout Muslim countries that likely have a high proportion of moral objectivists the rate of revenge and honor killings is likely very high. Yes, in predominantly secular nations, let's pick Sweden or Finland the rate of revenge killings is likely low. And if you feel like it you can go ahead and break down such killing in individual countries into like moral objectivists and subjectivists. You might be surprised. Of course, you might also be surprised to find that every single morals subjectivist here in this thread will tell you that they DO NOT see revenge killings a moral. In fact, I'm sitting here at the computer with my mouth agape slowly shaking my head as I type this since it is incomprehensible to me that you could be under such a misconception.hrun0815
January 16, 2015
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A good question for moral subjectivists: Is it moral to force what are ultimately personal preferences (no matter how strongly felt) on others?William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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hrun0815 said:
Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe
As expected - fairly common symptom of various forms of cognitive bias.
There is a fundamental misconception at play here, and that is that subjectivists have choice about their morals. I can not chose my morals. I can not see one action as moral right now and then chose to see it as immoral. The morals are subjectivist but not arbitrarily interchangeable through choice alone.
I also suspect you don't arbitrarily choose your favorite color or flavor of ice cream, or whether or not you like escargot. However, I doubt you would consider it moral to force those personal, subjective commodities on others.
It is eerily how similar this is to the debate about homosexuality. I am perfectly happy with how this is playing out in the population as a whole and the political arena in specifics. Let’s see, maybe eventually there will be a similar shift in public attitudes about subjectivist morality… even though it’s probably there already. It’s just that UD is far from representative.
Only a sociopath can be "perfectly happy" with whatever society does regardless of what it does; would you be perfectly happy with a public policy of torturing and beheading all LBGT's? Or, would you fight against it, sheltering them in defiance of public sentiment? But, I doubt the certainty of your conclusion (that no obejctive morality exists) grants any motivation for such introspective examination.William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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HRUN0815 So how do we test that your morals are more true than mine? If eating your children is perfectly acceptable to me in morally subjective terms, you can have no beef with me about it can you? In your world you're not even entitled to any option about it.Andre
January 16, 2015
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hrun
catch up with reality all those moral subjectivists like me will continue to make moral judgements, use terms like sociopaths, and continue living in the secular world where fortunately the influence of such attitudes is waning.
It may be true that secular society has more tolerance today for Islamic extremism although it didn't seem that way from the reaction in Paris recently.Silver Asiatic
January 16, 2015
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