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Now Jerry Coyne doubts the historical existence of Jesus Christ

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Jerry Coyne has written a post in which he states that he is inclined to believe that Jesus never existed, although he hasn’t made up his mind yet. And on what does Coyne base his tentative opinion? An article in the Huffington Post by a biopsychologist named Nigel Barber, a self-published book by a systems engineer, Michael Paulkovich, which Coyne admits he hasn’t read, and finally, another book which he hasn’t read, written by atheist activist Richard Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history, but who (judging from his Wikipedia biography) has no teaching or research position at any accredited institution. [Update: according to his C.V., Carrier teaches classes at the Center for Inquiry Institute Online (a think tank founded in 1987) using a Moodle interface, and is also an online instructor with Partners for Secular Activism. As far as I can tell, the only accredited program offered by CFI is an Ed.M. program in Science and the Public, in partnership with the Graduate School of Education of the University at Buffalo. However, Carrier does not teach this course.]

I wonder what Coyne would think of a critique of Darwin’s theory of evolution, written by a biopsychologist, a systems engineer and finally, a prominent evolution critic with a Ph.D. in biology, who had never taught the subject at any university. Not much, I think. I find it odd, then, that he is prepared to set aside the opinions of all reputable historians with relevant expertise in the field, on the question of whether Jesus existed.

Writes Coyne:

I have to say that I’m coming down on the “mythicist” side, simply because I don’t see any convincing historical records for a Jesus person. Everything written about him was decades after his death, and, as far as I can see, there is no contemporaneous record of a Jesus-person’s existence (what “records” exist have been debunked as forgeries). Yet there should have been some evidence, especially if Jesus had done what the Bible said. But even if he was simply an apocalyptic preacher, as [scholar Bart] Ehrman insists, there should have been at least a few contemporaneous records. Based on their complete absence, I am for the time being simply a Jesus agnostic. But I don’t pretend to be a scholar in this area, or even to have read a lot of the relevant literature.

Actually, we have excellent documentary evidence for the existence of Jesus from two historians writing in the first century: Josephus and Tacitus.

Josephus (A.D. 37 – c.100) may have been born a few years after the death of Jesus, but he was a personal eyewitness of the execution of Jesus’ brother, James (who may have actually been a half-brother or cousin of Jesus), in 62 A.D. As for Tacitus (c. 56 A.D. – 117 A.D.), he is considered to have been one of the greatest Roman historians, and as a Senator, he was likely to have had access to official Roman documents relating to Jesus’ trial, which took place about 80 years before he wrote his Annals, which states that Jesus was crucified during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius, and at the hands of the procurator, Pontius Pilate (Book 15, chapter 44).

The evidence from Josephus

Atheist Paul Tobin, creator of the skeptical Website The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager, has written an excellent article, The Death of James, in which he argues for the historical trustworthiness of Josephus’ description of the execution of James, whom he refers to as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ”:

The timing of the incident, the interregnum between Festus and Albinus, allows us to date this quite accurately to the summer of 62 CE. [1] Our confidence in the historicity of this account is bolstered by the fact that it was probably an eye witness account. Josephus mentioned in his Autobiography that he left Jerusalem for Rome when he was twenty-six years old. He date of birth was most likely around 37 CE. So at the time of James’ execution, the twenty five year old Josephus was a priest in Jerusalem.

The atheist amateur historian Tim O’Neill has written several blog posts rebutting the arguments of modern-day skeptics who deny the historicity of Jesus. O’Neill has no theological ax to grind here: indeed, he declares that he “would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings.” O’Neill exposes the shoddy scholarship of these “Mythers” (as he calls them) in a savagely critical review of “Jesus-Myther” David Fitzgerald’s recent book, Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that Show Jesus Never Existed at All. In the course of his lengthy review (dated May 28, 2011), O’Neill summarizes the evidence for Jesus’ historicity from the works of Josephus (bold highlighting mine – VJT):

As several surveys of the academic literature have shown, the majority of scholars now accept that there was an original mention of Jesus in Antiquities XVIII.3.4 and this includes the majority of Jewish and non-Christian scholars, not merely “wishful apologists”. This is partly because once the more obvious interpolated phrases are removed, the passage reads precisely like what Josephus would be expected to write and also uses characteristic language found elsewhere in his works. But it is also because of the 1970 discovery of what seems to be a pre-interpolation version of Josephus’ passage, uncovered by Jewish scholar Schlomo Pines of Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Professor Pines found an Arabic paraphrase of the Tenth Century historian Agapius which quotes Josephus’ passage, but not in the form we have it today. This version, which seems to draw on a copy of Josephus’ original, uninterpolated text, says that Jesus was believed by his followers to have been the Messiah and to have risen from the dead, which means in the original Josephus was simply reporting early Christian beliefs about Jesus regarding his supposed status and resurrection. This is backed further by a Syriac version cited by Michael the Syrian which also has the passage saying “he was believed to be the Messiah”. The evidence now stacks up heavily on the side of the partial authenticity of the passage, meaning there is a reference to Jesus as a historical person in precisely the writer we would expect to mention him…

The second mention is made in passing in a passage where Josephus is detailing an event of some significance and one which he, as a young man, would have witnessed himself.

In 62 AD, the 26 year old Josephus was in Jerusalem, having recently returned from an embassy to Rome. He was a young member of the aristocratic priestly elite which ruled Jerusalem and were effectively rulers of Judea, though with close Roman oversight and only with the backing of the Roman procurator in Caesarea. But in this year the procurator Porcius Festus died while in office and his replacement, Lucceius Albinus, was still on his way to Judea from Rome. This left the High Priest, Hanan ben Hanan (usually called Ananus), with a freer rein that usual. Ananus executed some Jews without Roman permission and, when this was brought to the attention of the Romans, Ananus was deposed.

This was a momentous event and one that the young Josephus, as a member of the same elite as the High Priest, would have remembered well. But what is significant is what he says in passing about the executions that that triggered the deposition of the High Priest:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so (the High Priest) assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Messiah, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.

…A major part of the problem with most manifestations of the Myther thesis is that its proponents desperately want it to be true because they want to undermine Christianity. And any historical analysis done with one eye on an emotionally-charged ideological agenda is usually heading for trouble from the start… Their biases against Christianity blind Mythers to the fact that they are not arriving at conclusions because they are the best or most parsimonious explanation of the evidence, but merely because they fit their agenda.

The overwhelming majority of scholars, Christian, non-Christian, atheist, agnostic or Jewish, accept there was a Jewish preacher as the point of origin for the Jesus story simply because that makes the most sense of all the evidence. The contorted and contrived lengths that Fitzgerald and his ilk have to resort to shows exactly how hard it is to sustain the idea that no such historical preacher existed. Personally, as an atheist amateur historian myself, I would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings, ad hoc explanations, imagined textual interpolations and fanciful suppositions.

It is sometimes alleged by “Jesus-Mythers” such as David Fitzgerald that both passages in Josephus are later interpolations, because the third-century Christian Father Origen supposedly declared that Josephus made no mention of Jesus in his writings. O’Neill handily disposes of this canard:

Not content with ignoring inconvenient key counter-evidence, [Jesus-Myther] Fitzgerald is also happy to simply make things up.  He talks about how the Second Century Christian apologist Origen does not mention the Antiquities XVII.3.4 reference to Jesus (which is true, but not surprising) and then claims “Origen even quotes from Antiquities of the Jews in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticises him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!” (p. 53)  Which might sound like a good argument to anyone who does not bother to check self-published authors’ citations.  But those who do will turn to Origen’s Contra Celsum I.4 and find the following:

Now this writer [Josephus], although not believing in Jesus as the Messiah, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was  “the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”,–the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice.

So Origen does not say Josephus “didn’t believe in Jesus”, just that he did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (which supports the Arabic and Syriac evidence on the pre-interpolation version of Antiquities XVII.3.4) And far from criticising Josephus “for failing to mention Jesus in that book”, Origen actually quotes Josephus directly doing exactly that – the phrase “αδελφος Ιησου του λεγομενου Χριστου” (the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”) is word for word the phrase used by Josephus in his other mention of Jesus, found at Antiquities XX.9.1.  And he does not refer to and quote Josephus mentioning Jesus just in Contra Celsum I.4, but he also does so twice more: in Contra Celsum II:13 and in Commentarium in evangelium Matthaei X.17.  It is hard to say if this nonsense claim of Fitzgerald’s is mere incompetence or simply a lie.  I will be charitable and put it down to another of this amateur’s bungles.

Tim O’Neill’s more recent online article, The Jesus Myth Theory: A Response to David Fitzgerald (December 1, 2013) is also well worth reading. It is a devastating take-down of the second-rate scholarship of Jesus-Mythers.

The evidence from the Roman historian Tacitus

Wikipedia provides a balanced overview of the evidence for Jesus’ historicity in its article, Tacitus on Christ, from which I have quoted the following excerpts:

Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now “firmly established” that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8]

In terms of an overall context, historian Ronald Mellor has stated that the Annals is “Tacitus’s crowning achievement” which represents the “pinnacle of Roman historical writing”.[9] The passage is also of historical value in establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[10][11]…

…Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to be genuine and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records.[5][6][7][41]

Van Voorst states that “of all Roman writers, Tacitus gives us the most precise information about Christ”.[40] John Dominic Crossan considers the passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states: “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus… agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact.”[52]

…Scholars have also debated the issue of hearsay in the reference by Tacitus. Charles Guignebert argued that “So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless”.[56] R. T. France states that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he had heard through Christians.[57] However, Paul R. Eddy has stated that as Rome’s preeminent historian, Tacitus was generally known for checking his sources and was not in the habit of reporting gossip.[23] Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: “Tacitus’s report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius’s reign.”[58]

References

5. Jesus and His Contemporaries: Comparative Studies by Craig A. Evans. 2001. ISBN 0-391-04118-5 page 42.
6. Mercer Dictionary of the Bible by Watson E. Mills and Roger Aubrey Bullard. 2001. ISBN 0-86554-373-9 page 343.
7. Pontius Pilate in History and Interpretation by Helen K. Bond. 2004. ISBN 0-521-61620-4 page xi.
8. The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition by Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd. Baker Academic, 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 page 127.
9. Tacitus’ Annals by Ronald Mellor. Oxford University Press. 2010. ISBN 0-19-515192-5 page 23.
10. Beginning from Jerusalem by James D. G. Dunn. William. B. Eerdmans, 2008. ISBN 0-8028-3932-0 pages 56-57.
11. Antioch and Rome: New Testament cradles of Catholic Christianity by Raymond Edward Brown, John P. Meier 1983. ISBN 0-8091-2532-3 page 99.
23. The Jesus legend: a case for the historical reliability of the synoptic gospels by Paul R. Eddy, et al. 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 pages 181-183.
40. Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence by Robert E. Van Voorst. William. B. Eerdmans, 2000. pp. 39- 53.
41. Tradition and Incarnation: Foundations of Christian Theology by William L. Portier 1993 ISBN 0-8091-3467-5 page 263.
52. Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography by John Dominic Crossan. HarperOne, 1995. ISBN 0-06-061662-8 page 145.
53. Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament by F.F. Bruce. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974. p. 23.
56. Jesus by Charles Guignebert. University Books, New York, 1956, p. 13.
57. France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing. pp. 19-20. ISBN 0-340-38172-8.
58. Ehrman p. 212

Who is Michael Paulkovich, anyway?

Michael Paulkovich, a systems engineer, is the recent author of a book called No Meek Messiah, excerpts from which can be found on this Web page. The following excerpts should put to rest any notion that Paulkovich has any credibility on historical matters (emphases are mine):

In No Meek Messiah I provide a list of 126 writers who should have recorded something of Jesus, with exhaustive references… [I was most amused to see Apollonius of Tyana, Epictetus, Petronius, Plotinus and Tiberius described as “historians” in Paulkovich’s list – VJT.]

Within a year after the decree by [Emperor] Theodosius [in 391 A.D.], crazed Christian monks of Nitria destroy the majestic Alexandrian Library largely because philosophy and science are taught there — not the Bible…

Christianity was made the only legal cult of the empire, and for the next 1500 years, good Christians would murder all non-Christians they could find by the tens of millions.

Early Christians believed all necessary knowledge was in the Bible and thus closed down schools, burned books, forbade teaching philosophy and destroyed libraries. The Jesus person portrayed in the Bible taught that “devils” and “sin” cause illness, and thus for some 1700 years good Christians ignored science and medicine to perform exorcisms on the ill…

Jesus has nothing against stealing, as he instructs his apostles to pinch a horse and a donkey from their rightful owner…

This Jesus character speaks highly of father Yahweh’s genocidal tantrums in Matthew 11:20-24…

Enough said?

Summary

People who are experts in one field are capable of appalling lapses of judgement when assessing the evidence in fields outside their own. By any objective criteria, there is abundant historical evidence that Jesus existed. Professor Coyne should have the grace to acknowledge this fact, and admit his error. But I’m not holding my breath.

NOTE: Kairosfocus has written an excellent post titled, Jeff Shallit: “Surely the right analogy is Santa Claus to Jesus Christ. Both are mythical figures . . . ” — spectacular Fail at History 101 in which he presents two videos summarizing the evidence for the existence of an historical Jesus.

Comments
Also, why are there no written extra biblical records of Jesus spending forty days on earth after he came back from the dead or why no one recorderd the saints leaving their graves at the time of his death? The two biggest events in history that proves life after death and no one wrote them down except his buddies. This just screams story telling on the apostle's part. They made up a hoax, high tailed it out when the Roman Empire cracked down and left the ignornat followers to die for them. When Constantine made christianity the religion, the church retconned the apostle's deaths as part of it's history and passed it along. Then they forced the outlying countries to adopt their religion. All it takes is 12 hucksters and a powerful Emperor to spread the lie.JLAfan2001
October 9, 2014
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Boy, KF, that's a long response just to say that there are no written documents confirming the martyrdom of the apostles. I checked out HeKs link and the evidence they present is non existent. They all fall into three categories: 1) "It is believed" which is not evidence. Just story telling. 2) A compilation from Fox's book of martyrs which is not an historical document from ancient times. 3) Referencing biblical passages which is using the bible to prove the bible. Only one has a referwnce, in the case of Bartholomew, which could be questioned if it's the same one in the bible. Even if it is, that's just one of 12. A church built over top of a supposed grave is not evidence.JLAfan2001
October 9, 2014
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PS: There may even be a little hint in that thing about anonymous lists Trajan speaks of, but we cannot be sure.kairosfocus
October 9, 2014
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Roding, he probably did have a little list -- he got both apostles who were in or around Rome and a wide enough number to do the awful things described by Tacitus, but such would not have survived. KFkairosfocus
October 9, 2014
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Roding, I spoke figuratively.
Oh, ok. It was just that you surrounded this statement with other comments that seemed factual, so I thought you were being literal ("Nero has a little list...") Not trying to be hyperskeptical just wanting to get at some of the facts and basic history!roding
October 9, 2014
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Roding, I spoke figuratively. However, several years before one of these had appeared as an appellate prisoner in Rome. A simple inquiry of the procurator would have secured the list from Judaea of known principals, who were not exactly trying to hide and would in any case have been watched. (64 was 2 years after the illegal execution of one known principal, James -- which triggered an angry exchange with the procurator on the way, and ended in removal of the newly appointed high priest, a significant event. The annual reports would have had records on that for sure. As well Clement of Rome said that Peter and Paul were betrayed out of envy, suggesting that Judas was not the only one to play at informer for cash or favour. Indeed, Paul speaks tersely about perils from false brethren in an epistle. By this time, Rome was a dictatorship, let us not forget.) And in fact at a later time the grandsons IIRC of James e al were seized and taken to Rome to account before another Emperor. They turned out to be Galilean peasant farmers of no political threat whatsoever. KFkairosfocus
October 9, 2014
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Roding and others need to realise that the core 20+ identified witnesses (all on Nero’s top most wanted list c AD 64-5 . . . )
I was aware of Nero's persecution of Christians, but didn't know that he had a list? Is there a reference to that somewhere?roding
October 9, 2014
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JLA: The blocking off of Jewish and Christian sources as not good enough to pass as evidence on the fate of leading witnesses, is a classic double-standard on evidence that reflects well-poisoning. Herod Antipas killed James the less with the sword. The first apostle to die, and he tried for Peter but that did not work. Kindly read the first nine chapters of Acts, a well supported book of history. We have Paul's Tomb-stone in Rome: Paulo, Apostolo, Mart St Peter's Basilica is, with difficulty, built so that its high altar stands directly above Someone's grave. (No prizes for guessing whose.) Here is Jospephus on the death of James the just, Antiquities 20.9.1:
And now Caesar, upon hearing of the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. ... But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus ... Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
This is Tacitus on what Nero did:
Therefore, to stop the rumor [that he had set Rome on fire], he [Emperor Nero] falsely charged with guilt, and punished with the most fearful tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were [generally] hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of that name, was put to death as a criminal by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the reign of Tiberius, but the pernicious superstition - repressed for a time, broke out yet again, not only through Judea, - where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, whither all things horrible and disgraceful flow from all quarters, as to a common receptacle, and where they are encouraged. Accordingly first those were arrested who confessed they were Christians; next on their information, a vast multitude were convicted, not so much on the charge of burning the city, as of "hating the human race." In their very deaths they were made the subjects of sport: for they were covered with the hides of wild beasts, and worried to death by dogs, or nailed to crosses, or set fire to, and when the day waned, burned to serve for the evening lights. Nero offered his own garden players for the spectacle, and exhibited a Circensian game, indiscriminately mingling with the common people in the dress of a charioteer, or else standing in his chariot. For this cause a feeling of compassion arose towards the sufferers, though guilty and deserving of exemplary capital punishment, because they seemed not to be cut off for the public good, but were victims of the ferocity of one man.
There is more than enough evidence that the apostles and other early leading witnesses as well as the early Christians as a whole, had everything to lose and little in this world to gain by their steadfast testimony. Here are the words of Paul as he -- as a Roman citizen -- faced beheading (as an alleged ringleader of the cult responsible for the fire of Rome), speaking of that fate as a libation offering to God:
2 Tim 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
Those of Peter, facing (as a mere Roman subject) crucifixion:
2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,[i] with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
I have of course little confidence that ANY degree of evidence will move determined objectors. For, their problem lies not with evidence but with the fallacy of the closed mind. It should be quite clear that Jews were hated, and Christians as an offshoot that tried to recruit Pagans by the numbers, even more so. False rumours of cannibalism, orgies, incest, arson, fomenting uprisings and treason because of refusal to worship Caesar as a god, were more than enough to motivate gross miscarriage of justice, including the absurdity of torture as a method of judicial inquiry. If you doubt this, observe the Trajan-Pliny correspondence c 112 AD:
PLINY: It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished. Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome. Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ. They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition. I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded. TRAJAN: You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age.
Let us ponder that. In two words: Falun Gong. (And Christians in modern China have seriously suffered for their faith.) KFkairosfocus
October 9, 2014
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"According to church tradition" is not the same as written historical evidence. Do we have written documents attesting to the martyrdom of the 12 apostles or were they stories passed down through the church? How reliable are the documents, if they exist?JLAfan2001
October 9, 2014
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PS: For those with hyper-sensitivity, I distinguish corrupt, ruthless elites and decent people of influence, much less the ordinary people of Israel. (And as many will know, kangaroo courts instigated by ruthless elites and judicial murder are concerns written into my name based on my family story. It is to be noted that when Governor Eyre was called home in disgrace he was given a hero's farewell by many in my homeland. He was tried but of course got off. [The Marxist-influenced cynic in me tempts me to hold that corrupted elites will tolerate a court system and police of only so much power and competence as will allow the powerful to be fairly sure of getting off. Down, boy! Bad dog! Off to the dog house without supper for you!] The cockneys, with a sounder insight, burned him in effigy.)kairosfocus
October 9, 2014
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HeKS:
hyper-skepticism (which is certainly not a term we made up … just google it) is virtually never equitable. Rather it is highly selective. Selective Hyper-Skepticism results when one requires a much higher degree of warrant in order to accept things that they prefer weren’t true. It most often comes up when worldview issues are at stake. It’s the application of a double-standard where one demands sufficient evidence to support absolute certainty (which is generally impossible) on certain facts they’d rather not have to believe, but they are willing to accept a much more lax standard of evidence and argumentation on matters of a very similar profile that don’t threaten their worldview. It also happens that someone demonstrating hyper-skepticism on these types of worldview issues often displays hyper-credulity towards arguments and evidence on the matter that is consistent with their own worldview. This isn’t really an accident, because the hyper-skepticism applied on one side of the equation often leaves the person grasping for any contrary evidence or argument at all on the other side of the equation, no matter how implausible or unsubstantiated.
Excellent summary. Roding and others need to realise that the core 20+ identified witnesses (all on Nero's top most wanted list c AD 64-5 . . . ) out of the 500 indicated in 1 Cor 15, c AD 55, were in a position to directly know Jesus by acquaintance and/or as a contemporary. They include:
a --> the twelve [less one and with a replacement picked from a wider circle of primary witnesses per Ac 1], b --> Jesus' family [the same who had convinced his mother to go with them to try to take him in charge as having gone mad . . . including James the just chosen as head of the mother church in Jerusalem in material part on being the next relative in line (and Josephus' martyr of record c 62 AD, probably witnessed or more or less directly and notoriously known of by Josephus) ], c --> the circle of women of substance who handled logistics and hospitality for the Jesus circle [headed by Mary Magdalene and involving the wife of the steward of Herod Antipas (of head on platter infamy) . . . ], and d --> the former first arch-persecutor.
These, collectively, are the direct witnesses to the reality of Jesus, and to his passion, death, burial and resurrection. Leaving off the 500 core members and fellow witnesses, we have 20+ . . . some of whom would have known Jesus since childhood. Indeed, it is arguable that John Zebedee was his cousin and that John's mom was Jesus' aunt who stood with Mary his mother at the cross. (Wenham argues that many of the core were also relatives, which makes a lot of sense. I am also of the inclination that Mary of Bethany and Mary Magdalene are the same person.) With people like this, the issue is not sincerely believing a narrative and a theology linked to it. It is about knowledge by direct acquaintance and experience. With the exception of Paul, in the direct ordinary sense of knowing another human being. It is these who are the backbone of the testimony in the face of Nero's dungeons, fire, sword and worse. (Much worse if you have the stomach to read Suetonius' life of the twelve Caesars on what Nero became.) You also need to appreciate just how culturally unexpected what they testified to was. One reason the ruthless Jerusalem elites surrounding the High Priest wanted Jesus crucified was that his was held to be demonstrative proof -- accursed is he who hangs on a tree -- that he was under the Divine Curse. Therefore his wonder-works could be dismissed as devilish, deceitful magic. And his teachings would fall under the same interdict. Pilate, seems to have been under pressure from his wife (maybe in turn knowing the story of Jesus from her circle of friends connected to that circle of women) to refuse to play along with the ruthless power game of kangaroo court and judicial murder. Since at that time he was on shaky grounds with Caesar, the you are not Caesar's friends move was decisive. But of course he notoriously washed his hands of the affair -- probably hoping to patch things up on the home font. In addition, in Jewish eschatological expectations, the hope was for a general resurrection, not of an isolated initial one. And, the apparent cultural norm to comfort the bereaved was a dream or vision of the departed resting with God. In such a context, the gospel message cut clean across expectations, perceptions, agendas and more. And it was known to be a very dangerous thing to stand up for from the outset. Recall, by 64 AD Christians were perceived as cannibals and enemies of humanity, based on ugly, unfounded rumours. That is doubtless why Nero figured they were handy scapegoats for the fire of Rome. In the teeth of this, here is the final testimony of the "ringleader" facing crucifixion -- a death so awful and shameful, that we cannot understand the inversion that has turned the cross into a holy symbol -- speaking his last will and testament:
2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,[i] with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. [ESV]
That is a lot of the context in which I can only shake my head when I see people trying to dismiss the basic existence of Jesus. As touching his resurrection, there are only two serious alternatives. One, an unprecedented, psychologically implausible and utterly convincing mass hallucination that includes skeptics [Jesus' own brothers (as in: he's mad, let's take him in charge . . . )] and an arch-persecuter [Saul of Tarsus]. Two, the witnesses are not merely sincere, but report the astonishing and world-changing truth, truth for which many peacefully surrendered their lives to dungeon, fire, sword or worse. No serious third alternative exists. KF PS: Cf here for more details, including a video summary and a video course.kairosfocus
October 9, 2014
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@Roding #93 Here are two sources you can take a look at. http://www.about-jesus.org/martyrs.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs (you can limit yourself to the 1st Century)HeKS
October 8, 2014
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@Roding #92 I apologize if you thought I was being impatient with you. That wasn't my intent. You ask what hyper-skepticism is so I'll explain. Normal skepticism is generally equitable and a good thing. It applies a reasonably consistent demand for warrant across the board before some claim of fact or some argument is accepted. It prevents one from being credulous, but allows one to believe what is reasonable to believe once one has received a reasonable amount of supporting evidence and/or argumentation. There's obviously some subjectivity here in terms of what one person considers to be a sufficient or reasonable amount of evidence or argumentation vs another, but the typical idea is that one is willing to believe if they've received sufficient evidence to bring about Moral Certainty rather than requiring Absolute Certainty. In other words, enough to warrant action or acceptance by a person who is not heavily biased. Conversely, hyper-skepticism (which is certainly not a term we made up ... just google it) is virtually never equitable. Rather it is highly selective. Selective Hyper-Skepticism results when one requires a much higher degree of warrant in order to accept things that they prefer weren't true. It most often comes up when worldview issues are at stake. It's the application of a double-standard where one demands sufficient evidence to support absolute certainty (which is generally impossible) on certain facts they'd rather not have to believe, but they are willing to accept a much more lax standard of evidence and argumentation on matters of a very similar profile that don't threaten their worldview. It also happens that someone demonstrating hyper-skepticism on these types of worldview issues often displays hyper-credulity towards arguments and evidence on the matter that is consistent with their own worldview. This isn't really an accident, because the hyper-skepticism applied on one side of the equation often leaves the person grasping for any contrary evidence or argument at all on the other side of the equation, no matter how implausible or unsubstantiated. Now, you said:
Hek, thanks for clarifying your point. I think I get what you are saying now. Is this story unique to Christianity? I don’t know.
Well, if this story is true, which is to say, if these several people over a period of time people really did choose to be tortured and killed rather than recant something they knew for a fact to be a lie - and not just a normal lie, but a lie about a person who they claimed to have spent years with but who didn't even exist - it would be the only case in all of history that I've heard about. In all the debates I've watched or listened to and the reading I've done, I haven't seen anybody ever offer another credible example of this happening. So, for one to assert without any evidence that this is what happened - and this is what must have happened if Jesus didn't exist - or to assert that it is even plausible to think this might have happened, is to degenerate into selective hyper-skepticism and declare one's agenda from the rooftops. So, what I'm saying is that even if this does not convince you of the total truth of Christianity, it is nonetheless sufficient to compel moral certainty in any reasonably unbiased person that Jesus at least existed. Arguments against Jesus' existence almost uniformly fall into the category of selective hyper-skepticism, because the amount and quality of the evidence we have for Jesus' existence is far more than the amount that these same people require to believe in any other figure from all of antiquity. Even Bart Ehrman, a Biblical scholar who is an agnostic leaning towards atheism, has said that we have more and better evidence for the existence of Jesus than we have for pretty much any other person from that period of history, to the point that no serious and credentialed historian across the entire spectrum of belief (i.e. believers, skeptics and non-believers) doubts his existence.HeKS
October 8, 2014
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Another question for Hek - you mentioned people who were tortured and died because of their association with Jesus? I'm familiar with Stephen, but who else? Is this all recorded in the book of Acts? Elsewhere? I'd like to read this for myself.roding
October 8, 2014
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Hek, thanks for clarifying your point. I think I get what you are saying now. Is this story unique to Christianity? I don't know. And what the Hek is "hyper-skepticism"? I think that's just a word you guys made up! It may not be reasoned skepticism to you, but it is the best I can do, so really you need to be a little more patient with people trying to understand this stuff.roding
October 8, 2014
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@Roding #90 With all due respect, I don't think you DO understand. At least your comment isn't a response to the point I made and the bit you quoted was not my point but the thing I was saying was not an accurate representation of the situation. It's one thing to say that it's not particularly shocking for a Christian today to be willing to die for what they believe because they believe it's true. You're correct in noting that this is not unique to Christianity. What I'm trying to tell you is that this fact is irrelevant to the point I'm making. The people that Barb was referencing who were willing to die for their belief in the truth of Jesus' resurrection were people who were in a position to actually know this man, Jesus, who they claim died and was resurrected. They were his contemporaries. They claimed to be his close associates. They claimed to be witnesses to his death and also to his resurrection along with hundreds of other people who were also mostly still alive at that point. And these people were willing to be tortured and killed rather than deny the truth they claimed to have witnessed with their own eyes, which included spending years in the close company of this man. This means that if they chose to be tortured and die for these claims, they were not choosing to die for something they really believed was true, but for something they absolutely knew to be a lie. For you to say that their willingness to die horrible deaths rather than recant any of these things is not incredibly powerful evidence that this man, Jesus, at the very least existed is frankly shocking. It is not reasoned skepticism, but highly selective hyper-skepticism.HeKS
October 8, 2014
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The key factor you’re not including in your analysis here is that the people you describe are willing to give their lives for things they believe to be true.
Yes, I understand that and I have no doubt that the people who do such things really do believe they know the truth. But it isn't just Christians who are willing to give their lives for things they believe are true. I don't think Christianity has a monopoly in this particular department. That's why I think this is not a strong argument, but again maybe it works for some. It doesn't work for me. It seems to me that religious convictions (or even philosphical ones) can be so intense that a person could do very drastic acts (and altruistic ones too), even to the point of forsaking their own lives. I just don't think this behavior is unique to Christianity.roding
October 8, 2014
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@Roding #85:
There is no good, logical argument that suggests that the early Christians believed in a mythical person and were willing to die because of this belief.
Certainly it is noteworthy that people are willing to die for their faith, but I think as a proof for the veracity of a particular faith it’s really a weak one. We don’t have to look much past the news headlines to see that there are many people of all kinds of philosophies and other religions that are willing to sacrifices their lives. I think it’s indicative of something, but not necessarily a validation of the truth of a person’s worldview.
The key factor you're not including in your analysis here is that the people you describe are willing to give their lives for things they believe to be true. Now, consider that if Jesus didn't actually exist, the many people who claimed to know him and who were willing to die terrible deaths rather than renounce their faith in him or their claims that they had witnessed his resurrection would fall into a completely different and unprecedented category of people who were willing to be tortured and killed for something they knew to be false. There can be no reasonable comparison between these two categories.HeKS
October 8, 2014
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Roding @ 85: spoken like a true skeptic.
I will take that as a compliment although I'm not sure if that was your meaning. Yes, I guess I am a skeptic, but I like to think I'm a seeker too. But then when assessing a claim I do like to consider the other explanations, particularly when the claim is extraordinary. I think that's why I don't find the "sacrifice" argument particularly compelling, because there can be other explanations. Of course that doesn't rule out Christianity being true, but I just don't think this argument would convince me, but I could see it might work for others. You just need to find the right argument that exhausts my alternative explanations!roding
October 8, 2014
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One might charge that evangelical scholars have an agenda: they believe in Jesus and in the historicity of the Bible. On the other hand, a skeptic has implicitly or explicitly built his whole life on a view of reality which assumes that Jesus is not God, that he does not call us to repent and place our trust in him. Doesn’t he then also have an inherent bias to find the Bible historically and theologically unreliable?
Yes, I definitely agree - I think there is probably confirmation bias happening on both sides. That's why I'm curious to find other opinions that don't have some prior agenda, but I'm not sure that exists! But at the very least, I'm trying to get an understanding of the basic facts that can be known - who wrote the gospels and when etc. But even that seems rather open to different interpretations and assumptions and as you say you have to consider possible biases in place when assessing the information.roding
October 8, 2014
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Roding @ 85: spoken like a true skeptic.Barb
October 8, 2014
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There is no good, logical argument that suggests that the early Christians believed in a mythical person and were willing to die because of this belief.
Certainly it is noteworthy that people are willing to die for their faith, but I think as a proof for the veracity of a particular faith it's really a weak one. We don't have to look much past the news headlines to see that there are many people of all kinds of philosophies and other religions that are willing to sacrifices their lives. I think it's indicative of something, but not necessarily a validation of the truth of a person's worldview.roding
October 8, 2014
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kairosfocus:
Robinson also opined that because of his investigations, a rewriting of many theologies of the New Testament was in order.
A rewriting of many books on eschatology is also in order. I guess the two sort of go hand in hand.Mung
October 8, 2014
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If there are non-evangelical scholars who believe that the gospels were authored by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, then a Google search should help answer that question. One might charge that evangelical scholars have an agenda: they believe in Jesus and in the historicity of the Bible. On the other hand, a skeptic has implicitly or explicitly built his whole life on a view of reality which assumes that Jesus is not God, that he does not call us to repent and place our trust in him. Doesn’t he then also have an inherent bias to find the Bible historically and theologically unreliable?Barb
October 8, 2014
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"In other words, the human propensity to believe is so powerful that it seems that people are more than willing to adopt a faith without really considering the provenance of it." While this may be true, it's not logical to conclude that the disciples believed in a mythical figure. Why? Because doing so, and publicly declaring that they believed in Jesus brought them in line for capital punishment. Why would anyone die for something that he or she knew wasn't true? The human propensity to believe may be strong, but the human instinct for survival is also strong, probably stronger. There is no good, logical argument that suggests that the early Christians believed in a mythical person and were willing to die because of this belief.Barb
October 8, 2014
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F/N: it will be helpful to excerpt Wikipedia (a known to be generally hostile popular reference), from its article on Bishop J A T Robinson [acc: Aug 23, 2012], on the dating of the NT documents, as it remarks on his well known 1976 work, Redating the New Testament, not least because this is revealing of the climate that confronts Christians who take the NT documents seriously as primary historical materials. C H Dodd's response is particularly revealing:
Although Robinson was within the liberal theology tradition, he challenged the work of colleagues in the field of exegetical criticism. Specifically, Robinson examined the New Testament's reliability, because he believed that very little original research had been completed in the field during the period between 1900 and the mid-1970s. Concluding his research, he wrote in his work, Redating the New Testament,[13] that past scholarship was based on a "tyranny of unexamined assumptions" and an "almost willful blindness". Robinson concluded that much of the New Testament was written before AD 64, partly based on his judgement that there is little textual evidence that the New Testament reflects knowledge of the Temple's AD 70 destruction. In relation to the four gospels' dates of authorship, Robinson placed Matthew at 40 to after 60, Mark at about 45 to 60, Luke at before 57 to after 60, and John at from 40 to after 65.[14][15] Robinson also argued that the letter of James was penned by a brother of Jesus Christ within twenty years of Jesus’ death, that Paul authored all the books that bear his name, and that the apostle John wrote the fourth Gospel. Robinson also opined that because of his investigations, a rewriting of many theologies of the New Testament was in order.[16][17][18] C. H. Dodd, in a frank letter to Robinson wrote: "I should agree with you that much of the late dating is quite arbitrary, even wanton, the offspring not of any argument that can be presented, but rather of the critic's prejudice that, if he appears to assent to the traditional position of the early church, he will be thought no better than a stick-in-the-mud."[19]
This is sadly revealing. KFkairosfocus
October 8, 2014
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jstanely01, I believe you.Collin
October 7, 2014
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Cold Case link @Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1434704696?pc_redir=1412322934&robot_redir=1 Heavy on history/details and very readable. "Could not put it down" say Atheists of the God Delusion. Cold Case same sort of read. And Cold Case is nonfiction:)ppolish
October 7, 2014
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rod: Here's the trick. Of ancient sources there is essential unanimity as to authorship. Mk looks to be recording with significant input from Peter's POV, but is not one of the twelve . . . a hard sell for a forger. Mt is one of the "background" apostles and started out as a "traitor" to Israel -- a tax collector for the Romans. Again, not where a fraud would likely go. Lk was a historian, assembling on eyewitness testimony and trusted sources. Their use of Mk as a base would fit well with Peter being a major source. John is the only one that per general ascription comes from the inner circle, on the main view. And that is the late life memoirs. Strictly anonymous but generally ascribed. More to the point, even if mislabelled we know them to be in citation and circulation by 95 - 115, from the first three writing church fathers. In addition, Ac terminates c 62 AD [last events] and is sequel to Lk that uses Mk. That makes it reasonable to ascribe Lk c 57 - 60 [time of Paul's Judaean imprisonment and trial], and Mk c 50. The passion narrative has features that may suggest 37. Attempts to insist on a date post 70 pivot on the assumption that accurate detailed prophecy is impossible so given predictions pointing to the Jewish war 66 - 70, it "must" post date that. That reads like question-begging. There was also an elaborate Hegelian thesis-antithesis scheme that had dates as late as 160 AD as seemed "reasonable" for such an evolution, but those have long been scotched by the Rylands P52 c 125, and by the use of 25 of 27 NT docs in the first writing Fathers, 95 - 115. In addition, there are abundant subtle links to the pre-70 AD situation that are archaeologically corroborated, where basic errors and anachronisms would be strongly expected otherwise. One such is the surprising match of name frequencies and habitual disambiguation practices with archaeology on C1 Palestine vs Egypt etc. And so forth. The relatively late dating schemes may still be commonly held but they are not standing on unquestionable ground. And in any case a C1 date is plenty good enough to have high historical fidelity. By comparison, oral accounts of WW II as experienced in the Caribbean passed down in families across our region are still quite accurate. Even, WWI experiences seen by one or two generations further back. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2014
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Cold case linkkairosfocus
October 7, 2014
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