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Now Jerry Coyne doubts the historical existence of Jesus Christ

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Jerry Coyne has written a post in which he states that he is inclined to believe that Jesus never existed, although he hasn’t made up his mind yet. And on what does Coyne base his tentative opinion? An article in the Huffington Post by a biopsychologist named Nigel Barber, a self-published book by a systems engineer, Michael Paulkovich, which Coyne admits he hasn’t read, and finally, another book which he hasn’t read, written by atheist activist Richard Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history, but who (judging from his Wikipedia biography) has no teaching or research position at any accredited institution. [Update: according to his C.V., Carrier teaches classes at the Center for Inquiry Institute Online (a think tank founded in 1987) using a Moodle interface, and is also an online instructor with Partners for Secular Activism. As far as I can tell, the only accredited program offered by CFI is an Ed.M. program in Science and the Public, in partnership with the Graduate School of Education of the University at Buffalo. However, Carrier does not teach this course.]

I wonder what Coyne would think of a critique of Darwin’s theory of evolution, written by a biopsychologist, a systems engineer and finally, a prominent evolution critic with a Ph.D. in biology, who had never taught the subject at any university. Not much, I think. I find it odd, then, that he is prepared to set aside the opinions of all reputable historians with relevant expertise in the field, on the question of whether Jesus existed.

Writes Coyne:

I have to say that I’m coming down on the “mythicist” side, simply because I don’t see any convincing historical records for a Jesus person. Everything written about him was decades after his death, and, as far as I can see, there is no contemporaneous record of a Jesus-person’s existence (what “records” exist have been debunked as forgeries). Yet there should have been some evidence, especially if Jesus had done what the Bible said. But even if he was simply an apocalyptic preacher, as [scholar Bart] Ehrman insists, there should have been at least a few contemporaneous records. Based on their complete absence, I am for the time being simply a Jesus agnostic. But I don’t pretend to be a scholar in this area, or even to have read a lot of the relevant literature.

Actually, we have excellent documentary evidence for the existence of Jesus from two historians writing in the first century: Josephus and Tacitus.

Josephus (A.D. 37 – c.100) may have been born a few years after the death of Jesus, but he was a personal eyewitness of the execution of Jesus’ brother, James (who may have actually been a half-brother or cousin of Jesus), in 62 A.D. As for Tacitus (c. 56 A.D. – 117 A.D.), he is considered to have been one of the greatest Roman historians, and as a Senator, he was likely to have had access to official Roman documents relating to Jesus’ trial, which took place about 80 years before he wrote his Annals, which states that Jesus was crucified during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius, and at the hands of the procurator, Pontius Pilate (Book 15, chapter 44).

The evidence from Josephus

Atheist Paul Tobin, creator of the skeptical Website The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager, has written an excellent article, The Death of James, in which he argues for the historical trustworthiness of Josephus’ description of the execution of James, whom he refers to as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ”:

The timing of the incident, the interregnum between Festus and Albinus, allows us to date this quite accurately to the summer of 62 CE. [1] Our confidence in the historicity of this account is bolstered by the fact that it was probably an eye witness account. Josephus mentioned in his Autobiography that he left Jerusalem for Rome when he was twenty-six years old. He date of birth was most likely around 37 CE. So at the time of James’ execution, the twenty five year old Josephus was a priest in Jerusalem.

The atheist amateur historian Tim O’Neill has written several blog posts rebutting the arguments of modern-day skeptics who deny the historicity of Jesus. O’Neill has no theological ax to grind here: indeed, he declares that he “would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings.” O’Neill exposes the shoddy scholarship of these “Mythers” (as he calls them) in a savagely critical review of “Jesus-Myther” David Fitzgerald’s recent book, Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that Show Jesus Never Existed at All. In the course of his lengthy review (dated May 28, 2011), O’Neill summarizes the evidence for Jesus’ historicity from the works of Josephus (bold highlighting mine – VJT):

As several surveys of the academic literature have shown, the majority of scholars now accept that there was an original mention of Jesus in Antiquities XVIII.3.4 and this includes the majority of Jewish and non-Christian scholars, not merely “wishful apologists”. This is partly because once the more obvious interpolated phrases are removed, the passage reads precisely like what Josephus would be expected to write and also uses characteristic language found elsewhere in his works. But it is also because of the 1970 discovery of what seems to be a pre-interpolation version of Josephus’ passage, uncovered by Jewish scholar Schlomo Pines of Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Professor Pines found an Arabic paraphrase of the Tenth Century historian Agapius which quotes Josephus’ passage, but not in the form we have it today. This version, which seems to draw on a copy of Josephus’ original, uninterpolated text, says that Jesus was believed by his followers to have been the Messiah and to have risen from the dead, which means in the original Josephus was simply reporting early Christian beliefs about Jesus regarding his supposed status and resurrection. This is backed further by a Syriac version cited by Michael the Syrian which also has the passage saying “he was believed to be the Messiah”. The evidence now stacks up heavily on the side of the partial authenticity of the passage, meaning there is a reference to Jesus as a historical person in precisely the writer we would expect to mention him…

The second mention is made in passing in a passage where Josephus is detailing an event of some significance and one which he, as a young man, would have witnessed himself.

In 62 AD, the 26 year old Josephus was in Jerusalem, having recently returned from an embassy to Rome. He was a young member of the aristocratic priestly elite which ruled Jerusalem and were effectively rulers of Judea, though with close Roman oversight and only with the backing of the Roman procurator in Caesarea. But in this year the procurator Porcius Festus died while in office and his replacement, Lucceius Albinus, was still on his way to Judea from Rome. This left the High Priest, Hanan ben Hanan (usually called Ananus), with a freer rein that usual. Ananus executed some Jews without Roman permission and, when this was brought to the attention of the Romans, Ananus was deposed.

This was a momentous event and one that the young Josephus, as a member of the same elite as the High Priest, would have remembered well. But what is significant is what he says in passing about the executions that that triggered the deposition of the High Priest:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so (the High Priest) assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Messiah, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.

…A major part of the problem with most manifestations of the Myther thesis is that its proponents desperately want it to be true because they want to undermine Christianity. And any historical analysis done with one eye on an emotionally-charged ideological agenda is usually heading for trouble from the start… Their biases against Christianity blind Mythers to the fact that they are not arriving at conclusions because they are the best or most parsimonious explanation of the evidence, but merely because they fit their agenda.

The overwhelming majority of scholars, Christian, non-Christian, atheist, agnostic or Jewish, accept there was a Jewish preacher as the point of origin for the Jesus story simply because that makes the most sense of all the evidence. The contorted and contrived lengths that Fitzgerald and his ilk have to resort to shows exactly how hard it is to sustain the idea that no such historical preacher existed. Personally, as an atheist amateur historian myself, I would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings, ad hoc explanations, imagined textual interpolations and fanciful suppositions.

It is sometimes alleged by “Jesus-Mythers” such as David Fitzgerald that both passages in Josephus are later interpolations, because the third-century Christian Father Origen supposedly declared that Josephus made no mention of Jesus in his writings. O’Neill handily disposes of this canard:

Not content with ignoring inconvenient key counter-evidence, [Jesus-Myther] Fitzgerald is also happy to simply make things up.  He talks about how the Second Century Christian apologist Origen does not mention the Antiquities XVII.3.4 reference to Jesus (which is true, but not surprising) and then claims “Origen even quotes from Antiquities of the Jews in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticises him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!” (p. 53)  Which might sound like a good argument to anyone who does not bother to check self-published authors’ citations.  But those who do will turn to Origen’s Contra Celsum I.4 and find the following:

Now this writer [Josephus], although not believing in Jesus as the Messiah, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was  “the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”,–the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice.

So Origen does not say Josephus “didn’t believe in Jesus”, just that he did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (which supports the Arabic and Syriac evidence on the pre-interpolation version of Antiquities XVII.3.4) And far from criticising Josephus “for failing to mention Jesus in that book”, Origen actually quotes Josephus directly doing exactly that – the phrase “αδελφος Ιησου του λεγομενου Χριστου” (the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”) is word for word the phrase used by Josephus in his other mention of Jesus, found at Antiquities XX.9.1.  And he does not refer to and quote Josephus mentioning Jesus just in Contra Celsum I.4, but he also does so twice more: in Contra Celsum II:13 and in Commentarium in evangelium Matthaei X.17.  It is hard to say if this nonsense claim of Fitzgerald’s is mere incompetence or simply a lie.  I will be charitable and put it down to another of this amateur’s bungles.

Tim O’Neill’s more recent online article, The Jesus Myth Theory: A Response to David Fitzgerald (December 1, 2013) is also well worth reading. It is a devastating take-down of the second-rate scholarship of Jesus-Mythers.

The evidence from the Roman historian Tacitus

Wikipedia provides a balanced overview of the evidence for Jesus’ historicity in its article, Tacitus on Christ, from which I have quoted the following excerpts:

Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now “firmly established” that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8]

In terms of an overall context, historian Ronald Mellor has stated that the Annals is “Tacitus’s crowning achievement” which represents the “pinnacle of Roman historical writing”.[9] The passage is also of historical value in establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[10][11]…

…Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to be genuine and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records.[5][6][7][41]

Van Voorst states that “of all Roman writers, Tacitus gives us the most precise information about Christ”.[40] John Dominic Crossan considers the passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states: “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus… agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact.”[52]

…Scholars have also debated the issue of hearsay in the reference by Tacitus. Charles Guignebert argued that “So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless”.[56] R. T. France states that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he had heard through Christians.[57] However, Paul R. Eddy has stated that as Rome’s preeminent historian, Tacitus was generally known for checking his sources and was not in the habit of reporting gossip.[23] Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: “Tacitus’s report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius’s reign.”[58]

References

5. Jesus and His Contemporaries: Comparative Studies by Craig A. Evans. 2001. ISBN 0-391-04118-5 page 42.
6. Mercer Dictionary of the Bible by Watson E. Mills and Roger Aubrey Bullard. 2001. ISBN 0-86554-373-9 page 343.
7. Pontius Pilate in History and Interpretation by Helen K. Bond. 2004. ISBN 0-521-61620-4 page xi.
8. The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition by Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd. Baker Academic, 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 page 127.
9. Tacitus’ Annals by Ronald Mellor. Oxford University Press. 2010. ISBN 0-19-515192-5 page 23.
10. Beginning from Jerusalem by James D. G. Dunn. William. B. Eerdmans, 2008. ISBN 0-8028-3932-0 pages 56-57.
11. Antioch and Rome: New Testament cradles of Catholic Christianity by Raymond Edward Brown, John P. Meier 1983. ISBN 0-8091-2532-3 page 99.
23. The Jesus legend: a case for the historical reliability of the synoptic gospels by Paul R. Eddy, et al. 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 pages 181-183.
40. Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence by Robert E. Van Voorst. William. B. Eerdmans, 2000. pp. 39- 53.
41. Tradition and Incarnation: Foundations of Christian Theology by William L. Portier 1993 ISBN 0-8091-3467-5 page 263.
52. Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography by John Dominic Crossan. HarperOne, 1995. ISBN 0-06-061662-8 page 145.
53. Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament by F.F. Bruce. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974. p. 23.
56. Jesus by Charles Guignebert. University Books, New York, 1956, p. 13.
57. France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing. pp. 19-20. ISBN 0-340-38172-8.
58. Ehrman p. 212

Who is Michael Paulkovich, anyway?

Michael Paulkovich, a systems engineer, is the recent author of a book called No Meek Messiah, excerpts from which can be found on this Web page. The following excerpts should put to rest any notion that Paulkovich has any credibility on historical matters (emphases are mine):

In No Meek Messiah I provide a list of 126 writers who should have recorded something of Jesus, with exhaustive references… [I was most amused to see Apollonius of Tyana, Epictetus, Petronius, Plotinus and Tiberius described as “historians” in Paulkovich’s list – VJT.]

Within a year after the decree by [Emperor] Theodosius [in 391 A.D.], crazed Christian monks of Nitria destroy the majestic Alexandrian Library largely because philosophy and science are taught there — not the Bible…

Christianity was made the only legal cult of the empire, and for the next 1500 years, good Christians would murder all non-Christians they could find by the tens of millions.

Early Christians believed all necessary knowledge was in the Bible and thus closed down schools, burned books, forbade teaching philosophy and destroyed libraries. The Jesus person portrayed in the Bible taught that “devils” and “sin” cause illness, and thus for some 1700 years good Christians ignored science and medicine to perform exorcisms on the ill…

Jesus has nothing against stealing, as he instructs his apostles to pinch a horse and a donkey from their rightful owner…

This Jesus character speaks highly of father Yahweh’s genocidal tantrums in Matthew 11:20-24…

Enough said?

Summary

People who are experts in one field are capable of appalling lapses of judgement when assessing the evidence in fields outside their own. By any objective criteria, there is abundant historical evidence that Jesus existed. Professor Coyne should have the grace to acknowledge this fact, and admit his error. But I’m not holding my breath.

NOTE: Kairosfocus has written an excellent post titled, Jeff Shallit: “Surely the right analogy is Santa Claus to Jesus Christ. Both are mythical figures . . . ” — spectacular Fail at History 101 in which he presents two videos summarizing the evidence for the existence of an historical Jesus.

Comments
Rodling, "Cold Case Christianity" is a great resource. Detailed & logical overview of the evidence from a "cold case" perspective.ppolish
October 7, 2014
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Here is where we differ: I do believe that the authors of the gospels are the disciples themselves. I do not believe that they were written by committee, nor do I believe that they are anonymous.
Thanks for your thoughts. Are there non-evangelical scholars who share this view?roding
October 7, 2014
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Again, I direct you to my post: If Jesus never existed, then who were all the persons I quoted talking about? I’d like an actual answer from an atheist/agnostic who doesn’t believe Jesus existed. I'm not an atheist and not really an agnostic either, but I'll answer anyway. I guess it's quite possible they are talking about a historical person. Is it possible though that a religion of such size as Christianity could be based on a mythical character? Yes, it's possible - given that we certainly have many examples of other religions (including Islam and Buddhism) that when examined may not have a historical founder, but that has not stopped them thriving and growing. The reality is that there are billions of people in the world who have unshakable faith in somethings that probably are simply not true. Logically, a good chunk of those people are wrong. Maybe everybody is? In other words, the human propensity to believe is so powerful that it seems that people are more than willing to adopt a faith without really considering the provenance of it.
roding
October 7, 2014
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Roding:
The limited research I have done indicated that the authors of the Matthew, Mark, John are essentially anonymous (and certainly not written by the disciples as tradition has it).
Here is where we differ: I do believe that the authors of the gospels are the disciples themselves. I do not believe that they were written by committee, nor do I believe that they are anonymous. I cite first-century historians for my reasons: Origen (3rd century), who wrote “first was written . . . according to Matthew, who was once a tax-collector but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, . . . in the Hebrew language.” (The Ecclesiastical History, VI, XXV, 3-6); Jerome (4th and 5th centuries) wrote in De viris inlustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men), chapter III, that Matthew “composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed. . . . Moreover, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected.” (taken from the translation from the Latin text edited by E. C. Richardson and published in the series “Texte und Untersuchungen zur Geschichte der altchristlichen Literatur,” Leipzig, 1896, Vol. 14, pp. 8, 9. Matthew may have later translated his gospel into Koine Greek, the common language of the day.
And there seems to be quite a range of dates, but seems the earliest dates are early to mid-50s. Don’t even conservative evangelical scholars concede this? I suppose it’s probable they are based on oral tradition, but is it correct to say these are eyewitness biographies?
Subscriptions, appearing at the end of Matthew’s Gospel in numerous manuscripts (all being later than the tenth century C.E.), say that the account was written about the eighth year after Christ’s ascension (c. 41 C.E.). This would not be at variance with internal evidence. The fact that no reference is made to the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy respecting Jerusalem’s destruction would point to a time of composition prior to 70 C.E. (Mt 5:35; 24:16) According to available evidence, the Gospels were written between the years 41 and 98 C.E. Jesus died in the year 33 C.E. This means that the accounts of his life were put together in a comparatively short time after his ministry ended. This poses a tremendous obstacle to the argument that the Gospel narratives are mere legends. Time is needed for legends to develop. I would state that yes, they are eyewitness biographies. The death and resurrection of Christ are found in all four gospels, and this is further clarified by Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. Remember also that children were taught by means of a strict rabbinic method of teaching that was in fashion during the time of the writing of the Gospels—this method adhered closely to learning by rote—a memorizing process using routine or repetition. This favors the accurate and careful rendering of Jesus’ sayings and works as opposed to an embellished legend or myth.Barb
October 7, 2014
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Idismyth:
There is evidence to suggest that he existed, but it is not conclusive.
Really? Not conclusive? The first-century historians as well as the gospel accounts of his life aren't conclusive enough? Again, I direct you to my post: If Jesus never existed, then who were all the persons I quoted talking about? I'd like an actual answer from an atheist/agnostic who doesn't believe Jesus existed. Seriously. Who were all these people referring to if not Jesus?
There are too many conflicting time frames and contradictory texts.
Cite some examples.
Was he one person? Was he an amalgam of more than one person? The side that a person picks will rely more on faith than it will on historical evidence.
That he was one person is not up for debate; that's made perfectly clear by the evidence we do have. That is, if we examine it honestly and with an open mind.Barb
October 7, 2014
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The difference is, we here deal with four eyewitness lifetime biographies...
I am not a historian, but the limited research I have done indicated that the authors of the Matthew, Mark, John are essentially anonymous (and certainly not written by the disciples as tradition has it). I think I've read that some say Luke is anonymous too. And there seems to be quite a range of dates, but seems the earliest dates are early to mid-50s. Don't even conservative evangelical scholars concede this? I suppose it's probable they are based on oral tradition, but is it correct to say these are eyewitness biographies?roding
October 7, 2014
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F/N: It's looking like we need something like logic and epistemology 101, with a dash of worldviews. Here on may help. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2014
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PS: To work your way through worldview reconstruction, kindly cf a 101 here on. PPS: It should be plain to all that this case surfaces ever so many of the epistemological issues and concerns that are at the root of much of the polarised debates over the inference to design. Particularly, those of inductive grounding of knowledge by dint of inference to the best current explanation. PPPS: I think Locke's words in his intro to his Essay on Human Understanding, sect 5, have much to teach us:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Text references added to document the biblical sources of Locke's allusions and citations.]
kairosfocus
October 7, 2014
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IDS: Historical evidence -- largely recorded testimony of various kinds -- never produces an absolute proof, as it is inherently inductive; specifically by abductive inference to the best explanation. However, in many cases it can produce moral certainty beyond reasonable -- as opposed to any and all -- doubts. Greenleaf, again, is instructive . . . this time from the opening chapter of his monumental Evidence:
Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [--> Greenleaf wrote almost 100 years before Godel], and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest. [A Treatise on Evidence, Vol I, 11th edn. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1888) ch 1., sections 1 and 2. Shorter paragraphs added. (NB: Greenleaf was a founder of the modern Harvard Law School and is regarded as a founding father of the modern Anglophone school of thought on evidence, in large part on the strength of this classic work.)]
Now, you compare evidence for Jesus with that for Robin Hood. The difference is, we here deal with four eyewitness lifetime biographies and a subsequent history, which cohere on a definite specific and unique character, the one that could produce the sermon on the mount and be taken seriously. There is obviously a plain historical core whatever exaggerated emphasis may be placed on difficulties with timelines and details of historical or archaeological circumstances on essentially secondary points. For, it is a known forensic character of true testimony that it will agree on the core when probed, but will often have divergence or even contradictions on secondary points. Where also many apparent contradictions will resolve on closer examination. For instance, we see Jesus and the disciples proposing to move farther into Lebanon, from Tyre to Sidon, in order to return to Israel. Why walk away from your destination in order to come back to it? ANS: Because there is a mountain in the way and you will have an easier way by a pass. Similarly, in looking at the many hihghlighted claimed contradictions across the Passion narratives, I first applied the principle of harmonisation, that if claimed contradictory points x1, x2, x3 . . . xn can be ANDed together and with a harmonising logically possible explanation E, a coherent narrative results, x1 to n cannot be contradictory. With aid of John Wenham et al, I therefore assembled and tabulated a timeline explanation (in response to a debate in Jamaica arising over claims of Bishop Spong) and found to my surprise that the points in the passion narrative do not even require a core-secondary separation to be harmonised. Providing only, that one is willing to accept the possibility of a God able and willing to work miracles. On the strength of this result and other similar experiences, I am much more inclined to doubt C20 or 21 skeptics who were not there, rather than evident eyewitnesses who were. A reasonable harmony of the core trumps a radical disharmony any day. On pain of descent into ill-advised selective hyperskpeticism. Yes, puzzles and difficulties remain, but one faces comparative difficulties on serious questions, not magic bullets that remove all issues, poof. It is in that spirit that I then looked at and tabulated comparative explanations on the resurrection of Jesus, which is pivotal in the theological debates over him. (Cf discussion here on, especially on the up to twelve minimal facts conceded by an absolute to overwhelming majority of technical scholarship over the past generation, and particularly the table of comparative explanations.) The result is stark. First, the shoal of skeptical explanations tracing to the rise of deist skeptics in recent centuries vanishes, poof. The Islamic argument similarly collapses. When the dust settles, there are two serious contenders, and one is markedly inferior as it pivots on an implausible common, convergent sustained hallucination by people of radically divergent temperament and circumstances. For, it is utterly plain that there was a radical change in the twelve, in the family of Jesus, and in Paul. Also, the despairing disciples who saw their leader judicially murdered, were suddenly unstoppably energised and irrepressible. Not even in the face of dungeon, fire, sword and worse. These men were plainly sincerely convinced, to the point of peaceful surrender of their lives to judicial murder. (Which, for a member of my family, has a very sobering ring of truth about it. The letter of George William Gordon to his wife in the one hour notice he had before he was unjustly hanged in Jamaica in 1865 at instigation of a cruel Governor, speaks loud volumes to those willing to listen.) Either, we had that sort of utterly implausible mutually supportive hallucination, sustained across altogether several years, or else we have witnesses to the truth of a worldview-shattering miracle, the resurrection of Messiah in fulfillment of 700 year old written promises . . . authenticating the Hebraic prophetic and scriptural tradition in which Messiah came. And not only so, but there were clearly many miracles, including at least one in the Temple itself that he same Sanhedrin that had recently put Jesus to death could not overturn. This, Ac 4:13 - 14, is classic:
Ac 4: 13 Now when they [the Sanhedrin] saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. 14 But seeing the man who was healed standing beside them, they had nothing to say in opposition.
Y'see, I AM THAT MAN STANDING THERE. That is, absent miraculous answer to prayer of surrender to the self-same God of the Bible, a miracle of guidance, I would be in my grave from a chronic childhood disease some forty years now. Likewise, I testify to a life turned around by encounter with that Living God in the face of the risen Christ. Nor am I alone, there are millions of us across the years and walking on this planet's surface today. Let me cite just one, Pascal in his hidden testament to his night of fire of November 23 1654, recovered from his coat's lining after his death:
The year of grace 1654 Monday, 23 November, feast of Saint Clement, Pope and Martyr, and of others in the Martyrology. Eve of Saint Chrysogonus, Martyr and others. From about half past ten in the evening until half past midnight. Fire 'God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob,' not of philosophers and scholars. Certainty, certainty, heartfelt, joy, peace. God of Jesus Christ. God of Jesus Christ. My God and your God. 'Thy God shall be my God.' The world forgotten, and everything except God. He can only be found by the ways taught in the Gospels. Greatness of the human soul. 'O righteous Father, the world had not known thee, but I have known thee.' Joy, joy, joy, tears of joy. I have cut myself off from him. They have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters. 'My God wilt thou forsake me?' Let me not be cut off from him for ever! And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. I have cut myself off from him, shunned him, denied him, crucified him. Let me never be cut off from him! He can only be kept by the ways taught in the Gospel. Sweet and total renunciation. Total submission to Jesus Christ and my director. Everlasting joy in return for one day's effort on earth. I will not forget thy word. Amen.
As for the reality of miracles, I have experienced enough and observed enough up to within the last few months and year and a half, that I have no doubt. And there are ever so many others that can testify to the sheer miracle working power of the name of that same Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ of God that you would put in the same category of a semifictional character, Robin Hood. Robin Hood, sir, does not answer by fire. The Living God does. Please, think again. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 7, 2014
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Whether or not you believe in the existence of a Rabbi named Jesus is up for debate. There is evidence to suggest that he existed, but it is not conclusive. There are too many conflicting time frames and contradictory texts. Was he one person? Was he an amalgam of more than one person? The side that a person picks will rely more on faith than it will on historical evidence. The same could be said for Robin Hood. There is plenty of evidence in support of his existence. But most historians now agree that he is an amalgam of two or more people. And this is a character who is many centuries more recent than Jesus, during a time with better extant records. But of more importance is whether or not this Jesus character was god. On this subject, there is no supporting evidence, and there never will be, regardless of the number if links that BA77 can produce.idismyth
October 6, 2014
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mahuna @ 12:
There is no evidence for a historical person corresponding to the main character in the Christian gospels. This was well established in the 19th century, and no less a person than Albert Schweitzer stated that publicly.
Is that the Albert Schweitzer, the Christian?
Since the mid-1890s Schweitzer had formed the inner resolve that it was needful for him as a Christian to repay to the world something for the happiness which it had given to him, and he determined that he would pursue his younger interests until the age of thirty and then give himself to serving humanity, with Jesus serving as his example.
Mung
October 6, 2014
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Why can't Coyne be honest enough to just admit that he isn't qualified to render an opinion that anyone else should take seriously? Why I don't believe Jesus was a real person: Many adults believe in a real Jesus, but many children believe in a real Santa.Mung
October 6, 2014
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Jerry Coyne has written a post in which he states that he is inclined to believe that Jesus never existed...
Anyone here surprised?
...although he hasn’t made up his mind yet.
So he doesn't want to appear to be a complete fool. Perhaps if he just *wished* a little harder.Mung
October 6, 2014
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Thank you all for your thoughtful replies! Very interesting and helpful information. Really helps me better understand both sides of the argument.roding
October 6, 2014
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Dr. Craig exposes sensationalistic claims about the historical Jesus making the rounds in popular media. Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/false-claims-in-the-popular-press#ixzz3FPINOC4M podcast: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/mediaf/podcasts/uploads/RF_Podcast_False_Claims_in_the_Popular_Press_2014.mp3bornagain77
October 6, 2014
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F/N: I annotate . . . >> * There are no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus, despite the fact that there were many active historians in the region>> Josephus and Luke, active historical writers, wrote of Jesus. In addition, two other sources are lifetime witness biographies that bear marks of being based on eyewitness testimony. Most historians of C1 would have had little interest in Jesus, but we do have a cluster of incidental references within about 70 years, none of which betray any notion that Jesus was not a figure of history. This dismissiveness is a modern hyperskeptical invention. >>* The gospels were written much latter than the events they portray and in some cases it seems authorship is unclear (and probably not by contemporaneous eyewitnesses)>> Skeptical assertions. There is no good reason to dismiss the NT documents as C1 narratives given that they crop up in the very first circle of writing Fathers, 95 - 115 AD, as authentic and authoritative. Luke is a self acknowledged historical writer not an eyewitness, and can be dated c 60 AD, with Ac 62 AD. He uses Mk as a trusted source, dating that to c 50 with the passion narrative having indications of being 37 AD In addition in a separate writing by Paul we have a documentation of 55 AD, confirming oral instructions c 50 - 52 AD, and in turn resting on a summary of the Jerusalem church's official testimony dating 35 - 38 AD Mk Lk-Ac and 1 Cor 15 are by themselves more than enough to warrant the authenticity of the NT. MT fits this f/w and there is no good reason to reject the authorship of any Gospel, they are not the ones we would expect from early forgers and there is simply no tradition that disputes that ascription of consequence from the historical times. Jn, the latest is perhaps 90 AD by a remaining apostle. By c 125 AD it is appearing copied in codex form in Egypt in the Rylands papyrus. The onward tradition of transmission as linked here and onward, is far better than any other comparable classical work >>* One of the main founders of Christianity, Paul, seems to have written his letters before the gospels, but seems completely unaware of historical or biographical details of the person he advocates as Christ.>> False, but commonly perceived. Just from 1 Cor 15, we see much on the historical side. A compilation of allusions and points of contacts tie to Jesus' narrative in many subtle ways. Paul knew the family of Jesus, esp James, he knew the leading members of the twelve including Peter, he spent significant time in and around Jerusalem in the 30's and 40's, and when a controversy arose over his free acceptance of Gentiles without making them Jewish proselytes, the Jerusalem leadership clearly endorsed his ministry and teaching with the conversion of Cornelius under Peter's ministry a critical evidence. And we have the preserved letter of endorsement, the communique of the first ever general church council, c 49 AD. Astonishingly -- but patently echoing time together in Antioch in the mid 40's (and this includes at least one sharp exchange!), Peter's theology in his epistles is strongly reflective of Paul. Actually, the influences probably run both ways. Paul did not write a biography of Jesus, but his companion acting under his obvious leadership, Luke, did so. (I suspect the core of Lk-Ac was materials for legal briefs; remember this is a man who appealed to Nero Ceasar's judgement, exploiting a then not widely known right of the citizen . . . more likely, Burrus acting for Nero. Then as now, if you appeal to the supreme court you had better have your ducks in a row, so it is highly likely Luke was gathering info and compiling an authentic narrative long before Paul's dramatic appeal.) >>* Non-scriptural references come much later, and although they definitely ratify the existence of a religious movement, is that really verification of the founder? (perhaps in the same way Mormon history talks of the angel Moroni and gold plates etc is not necessarily historical ratification of those events/persons)>> The circle of non-Christian references [adjusted for the apparent insertions in Jospehus per the independent Arabic text], gives a pattern that is instantly recognisable. Here is Paul Barnett's classic summary:
On the basis of . . . non-Christian sources [i.e. Tacitus (Annals, on the fire in Rome, AD 64; written ~ AD 115), Rabbi Eliezer (~ 90's AD; cited J. Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth (London: Collier-Macmillan, 1929), p. 34), Pliny (Letters to Trajan from Bithynia, ~ AD 112), Josephus (Antiquities, ~ 90's)] it is possible to draw the following conclusions: Jesus Christ was executed (by crucifixion?) in Judaea during the period where Tiberius was Emperor (AD 14 - 37) and Pontius Pilate was Governor (AD 26 - 36). [Tacitus] The movement spread from Judaea to Rome. [Tacitus] Jesus claimed to be God and that he would depart and return. [Eliezer] His followers worshipped him as (a) god. [Pliny] He was called "the Christ." [Josephus] His followers were called "Christians." [Tacitus, Pliny] They were numerous in Bithynia and Rome [Tacitus, Pliny] It was a world-wide movement. [Eliezer] His brother was James. [Josephus] [Is the New Testament History? (London, Hodder, 1987), pp. 30 - 31. Cf. McDowell & Wilson, He Walked Among Us (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 1993) for more details; free for download here.]
Such references compare very well with general classical sources on personalities, including leading ones. >>These things in themselves are not “proofs” that Jesus did not exist, but they do make for an intriguing puzzle. And for a bystander like myself, I would that although these may not be good reasons to be skeptical, I think these are valid points that need addressing. Perhaps that’s where faith plays into the picture. >> I respond with some wise words on evidence from Testimony of the Evangelists, by Simon Greenleaf, a founding father of not only Havard Law School but also of the modern anglophone theory of evidence:
1] THE ANCIENT DOCUMENTS RULE: Every document, apparently ancient, coming from the proper repository or custody, and bearing on its face no evident marks of forgery, the law presumes to be genuine, and devolves on the opposing party the burden of proving it to be otherwise. [p.16.] 2] Conversance: In matters of public and general interest, all persons must be presumed to be conversant, on the principle that individuals are presumed to be conversant with their own affairs. [p. 17.] 3] On Inquiries and Reports: If [a report] were "the result of inquiries, made under competent public authority, concerning matters in which the public are concerned" it would . . . be legally admissible . . . To entitle such results, however, to our full confidence, it is not necessary that they be obtained under a legal commission; it is sufficient if the inquiry is gravely undertaken and pursued, by a person of competent intelligence, sagacity and integrity. The request of a person in authority, or a desire to serve the public, are, to all moral intents, as sufficient a motive as a legal commission. [p. 25.] 4] Probability of Truthfulness: In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is a sufficient probability that it is true. [p. 28.] 5] Criteria of Proof: A proposition of fact is proved, when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence. By competent evidence is meant such as the nature of the thing to be proved requires; and by satisfactory evidence is meant that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond any reasonable doubt. [pp. 28 - 9.] 6] Credibility of Witnesses: In the absence of circumstances which generate suspicion, every witness is to be presumed credible, until the contrary is shown; the burden of impeaching his credibility lying on the objector. [p. 29] 7] Credit due to testimony: The credit due to the testimony of witnesses depends upon, firstly, their honesty; secondly, their ability; thirdly, their number and the consistency of their testimony; fourthly, the conformity of their testimony with experience; and fifthly, the coincidence of their testimony with collateral circumstances. [p.31.] 8] Ability of a Witness to speak truth: the ability of a witness to speak the truth depends on the opportunities which he has had for observing the facts, the accuracy of his powers of discerning, and the faithfulness of his memory in retaining the facts, once observed and known . . . It is always to be presumed that men are honest, and of sound mind, and of the average and ordinary degree of intelligence . . . Whenever an objection is raised in opposition to ordinary presumptions of law, or to the ordiary experience of mankind, the burden of proof is devolved on the objector. [pp. 33 - 4.] 9] Internal coherence and external corroboration: Every event which actually transpires has its appropriate relation and place in the vast complication of circumstances, of which the affairs of men consist; it owes its origin to the events which have preceded it, it is intimately connected with all others which occur at the same time and place, and often with those of remote regions, and in its turn gives birth to numberless others which succeed. In all this almost inconceivable contexture, and seeming discord, there is perfect harmony; and while the fact, which really happened, tallies exactly with every other contemporaneous incident, related to it in the remotest degree, it is not possible for the wit of man to invent a story, which, if closely compared with the actual occurrences of the same time and place, may not be shown to be false. [p. 39.] 10] Marks of false vs true testimony: a false witness will not willingly detail any circumstances in which his testimony will be open to contradiction, nor multiply them where there is a danger of his being detected by a comparison of them with other accounts, equally circumstantial . . . Therefore, it is, that variety and minuteness of detail are usually regarded as certain test[s] of sincerity, if the story, in the circumstances related, is of a nature capable of easy refutation, if it were false . . . . [False witnesses] are often copious and even profuse in their statements, as far as these may have been previously fabricated, and in relation to the principal matter; but beyond this, all will be reserved and meagre, from fear of detection . . . in the testimony of the true witness there is a visible and striking naturalness of manner, and an unaffected readiness and copiousness in the detail of circumstances, as well in one part of the narrative as another, and evidently without the least regard to the facility or difficulty of verification or detection . . . the increased number of witnesses to circumstances, and the increased number of circumstances themselves, all tend to increase the probability of detection if the witnesses are false . . . Thus the force of circumstantial evidence is found to depend on the number of particulars involved in the narrative; the difficulty of fabricating them all, if false, and the great facility of detection; the nature of the circumstances to be compared, and from which the dates and other facts to are be collected; the intricacy of the comparison; the number of intermediate steps in the process of deduction; and the circuity of the investigation. The more largely the narrative partake[s] of these characteristics, the further it will be found removed from all suspicion of contrivance or design, and the more profoundly the mind will rest in the conviction of its truth. [pp. 39 - 40.] 11] Procedure: let the witnesses be compared with themselves, with each other, and with surrounding facts and circumstances.[p. 42.] 12] The degree of coherence expected of true witnesses: substantial truth, under circumstantial variety. There is enough of discrepancy to show that there could have been no previous concert among them, and at the same time such substantial agreement as to show that they all were independent narrators of the same great transaction, as the events actually occurred. [p.34. All cites from The Testimony of the Evangelists (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Classics, 1995). ]
The fundamental error of the selectively hyperskeptical, is to think that to doubt and to toss up skeptical talking points is to refute and dismiss, while being inconsistent with similar cases s/he is inclined to accept. If such were to become globally skeptical, the absurd consequences would be patent. So, it is time for us to do some fresh thinking. Remember, what is being doubted and dismissed here is the bare existence of Jesus. If that is rejected on the evidence in hand, a consistent standard would let go of the entire classical deposit. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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Roding writes @ 57:
* There are no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus, despite the fact that there were many active historians in the region
It should be noted that the Jewish people had a tradition of oral repetition. The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: “Dependence on oral tradition could easily account for the memorable sayings of Jesus being recorded in identical form.” The Bible itself is the principal evidence that Jesus Christ is a historical person. The record in the Gospels is not a vague narrative of events at some unspecified time and in an unnamed location. It clearly states time and place in great detail. For an example, see Luke 3:1, 2, 21-23.
* The gospels were written much latter than the events they portray and in some cases it seems authorship is unclear (and probably not by contemporaneous eyewitnesses)
The four canonical gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were accepted among Christians at least as early as the mid 2nd century. Irenaeus (of the late 2nd century) noted that there were four gospels, just as there were four quarters of the globe and four cardinal winds. According to some sources, the Gospel of Matthew was written as early as the eighth year after Christ’s death, that is, about 41 C.E. Many scholars favor a somewhat later date, but there is general agreement that all the books of the Christian Greek Scriptures were written during the first century C.E.
* One of the main founders of Christianity, Paul, seems to have written his letters before the gospels, but seems completely unaware of historical or biographical details of the person he advocates as Christ.
Paul wrote his letters after the gospels were written. Romans was written about 56 CE. Paul does not include biographical details about Christ, because that was handled by the gospel writers. His focus was the early Christian congregation. He showed clearly how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures (read the book of Hebrews and see how he contrasts the animal sacrifices required under the Mosaic Law with Jesus’ sacrifice).
* Non-scriptural references come much later, and although they definitely ratify the existence of a religious movement, is that really verification of the founder? (perhaps in the same way Mormon history talks of the angel Moroni and gold plates etc is not necessarily historical ratification of those events/persons)
Jesus’ mortal enemies never doubted he existed. Also, I direct you to my post above. If Jesus never existed, then who exactly were all the people I quoted, including historians, philosophers, and scientists, referring to?Barb
October 6, 2014
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Rod, to your 4 points of intrigue: 1.) If the Gospel story is remotely reliable, there, by definition, would not have been contemporaneous historical accounts. If an event beyond a shadow of a doubt happened, no one journals it, especially if they earnestly believe that the Messiah is returning any moment and it's incumbent upon one to spread the word right this second by word of mouth. I've always found this odd as an objection. I would find it far more disturbing to the historicity presented in the Gospels if we did find a contemporaneous non-canonical historian. That would tell us that it was possible for people of the time to hear the facts of Jesus' life, not embrace them, and also disbelieve the impending return. Absence of such an account is just as easily a testament to the unanimity of early Jesus history. 2.) Again, supposing there's any history to be gleaned from the Gospels, no one saw any point in writing down the history until followers started getting old and they were forced to rethink their concept of "one day soon." Nonetheless, cross referencing church fathers, you find that authorship was actually well known and mentor/mentee relationships could be drawn directly to Luke and others. Too early of authorship would undermine the claims and beliefs of the early christian community. 3.) Paul's lack of interest in biographical details is a product of his belief system, again dovetailing perfectly with what we would expect if there was intense passion and urgency in that community. Exclusion simply means exclusion. It doesn't mean he didn't know. If anything, it means he thought them unimportant or distracting. Honestly, if we had a Thucydides-like run down of Jesus' time stamped school days, this wouldn't help. We could just as easily dismiss that history on account of it sounding formulaic, contrived and based on some other Jewish mystic's boyhood. 4.) Good point. The farther people get removed from the initial community of Jesus followers, the less likely they are to get the details of his life correct when they stray from the earliest accounts. Like with us. Non-canonical sources found no reason to doubt the existence of Jesus. Fine details may be up for grabs, and acceptance of Messiah is a non-historical matter of the heart, but non-existence is a 19th century kook invention. I understand even a wary agnostic position; but outright dismissal with a stacked deck is bogus. One hundred years from now, if someone mined all of the masters theses in literature, political science and biology, they could honestly and correctly say, "there's no mention in any of these documents of the large hadron collider; ergo, it mustve been made up." The point is that you can always create a criterion of dismissal, especially when you look at ancient history. It's just, in the case of Jesus of Nazareth, such criteria are unfair and unreasonable. We have documents to work with. We don't have to throw them out. If you use some imagination, you will find that no matter how reasonable a claim of truth you make, you can create a criterion of exclusion that seems at first glance reasonable. That isn't scholarly rigor. It's just hand waving.jw777
October 6, 2014
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Rod: Carrier seems to be taking skeptical dismissals at face value, which were far more popular in an earlier generation before scholarship rebalanced. Note, Evans' Benthal lecture. About to go down on power so later. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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KF, I'm not a Christian (and neither am I an atheist), so I don't really have too much skin in this game. I suppose though one could argue that Carrier is taking a minority view not dis-similar to the one that ID takes against mainstream evolution. So I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. I find at least some of his ideas intriguing: * There are no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus, despite the fact that there were many active historians in the region * The gospels were written much latter than the events they portray and in some cases it seems authorship is unclear (and probably not by contemporaneous eyewitnesses) * One of the main founders of Christianity, Paul, seems to have written his letters before the gospels, but seems completely unaware of historical or biographical details of the person he advocates as Christ. * Non-scriptural references come much later, and although they definitely ratify the existence of a religious movement, is that really verification of the founder? (perhaps in the same way Mormon history talks of the angel Moroni and gold plates etc is not necessarily historical ratification of those events/persons) These things in themselves are not "proofs" that Jesus did not exist, but they do make for an intriguing puzzle. And for a bystander like myself, I would that although these may not be good reasons to be skeptical, I think these are valid points that need addressing. Perhaps that's where faith plays into the picture.roding
October 6, 2014
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I'll return to my previous question: Can someone corroborate the measurement of the Higgs Boson without referencing CERN or any of their work? Are there multiple, disinterested, unbelieving groups who have measured the Higgs Boson today and every day at the same mass as CERN? No? Then it's unreasonable to even beleive it exists, let alone knowing any of its properties.jw777
October 6, 2014
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I'm just exhausted with the line of questioning: Without using any of the evidence for X, can you show me evidence for X? Of course the answer is no. It's built into the "skeptic's" premise. If I exclude all primary documents for any event as a starting point, guess what - there aren't any primary documents that support that event. Wow. I'm absolutely floored by that intellectual rigor. This is THE fundamental issue. A priori wanton exclusion has a predictable result. This is not an argument or scholarship. It's hand waving.jw777
October 6, 2014
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PS: I find this summary in Wiki, as a beginning on Carrier:
He is a supporter of the Christ myth theory. In his contribution to The Empty Tomb Carrier argues that the earliest Christians probably believed Jesus had received a new spiritual body in the resurrection,[7] and that stories of his old body disappearing from its tomb were developed later. He also argues it is less likely, but also possible, that the original body of Jesus was misplaced or stolen. This work was criticized by philosophy professor Stephen T. Davis in Philosophia Christi[8] and Christian apologist Norman Geisler.[9] Carrier's first major book was published in 2012 by Prometheus Books, describing the application of Bayes Theorem to historical enquiry (specifically the historicity or otherwise of Jesus of Nazareth).[10] Though originally skeptical of the notion, and subsequently more agnostic, since 2005 he has considered it "very probable Jesus never actually existed as a historical person",[11] yet he also said "though I foresee a rising challenge among qualified experts against the assumption of historicity [of Jesus]... that remains only a hypothesis that has yet to survive proper peer review".[12] In June 2014 Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt was published by Sheffield Phoenix Press. Carrier has claimed that it is "the first comprehensive pro-Jesus myth book ever published by a respected academic press and under formal peer review".[13]
Prometheus books is of course a skeptical publisher rather than a general academic house. Sheffield Phoenix is an academic press. Reading carefully, we see that he is not actually currently declaring that Jesus never existed, but that we may have doubts and here's how to doubt. The basic problem here is a question of reasonable method. There is a world of difference between doubts and reasonable, well grounded [as opposed to merely skeptical] doubts. And no, playing mathematical games with Bayesian priors or the like is not good enough, when all that one may be doing is propagating ideological a prioris. Disguised question-begging in short. KFkairosfocus
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I'm inclined to believe Darwin never sailed on the Beagle. Eyewitness accounts are questionable. I believe he hid in his mum's cellar and plagiarized Wallace. Where is the Beagle anyway?ppolish
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JW777, I think you have a serious point, noting that the baseline issue here is dismissal of the bare bones existence of a person identifiable as Jesus of Nazareth in Galilee. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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Mahuna declares,
There is no evidence for a historical person corresponding to the main character in the Christian gospels.
Says who? You? Are you a historian? No? Then are you qualified to make such a statement? No?
This was well established in the 19th century, and no less a person than Albert Schweitzer stated that publicly.
You should also note that historian Will Durant claimed that Jesus did exist. Are you going to ignore his work? If so, why? Napoléon Bonaparte reportedly said: “Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires, but upon what did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ alone founded his kingdom upon love, and at this day millions of men would die for him.” “I have regarded Jesus of Nazareth as one amongst the mighty teachers that the world has had. . . . I shall say to the Hindus that your lives will be incomplete unless you reverently study the teachings of Jesus.”—Mohandas K. Gandhi, The Message of Jesus Christ. “A character so original, so complete, so uniformly consistent, so perfect, so human and yet so high above all human greatness, can be neither a fraud nor a fiction. . . . It would take more than a Jesus to invent a Jesus.”—Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church. “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”—Will Durant, Caesar and Christ. “It may seem incomprehensible that a globe-spanning religious movement could have been triggered by a nonexistent person dreamed up as the ancient equivalent of a marketing device, given the ranks of incontestably real people who have tried and failed to found faiths.”—Gregg Easterbrook, Beside Still Waters. As a literary historian I am perfectly convinced that whatever the Gospels are, they are not legends. They are not artistic enough to be legends. Most of the life of Jesus is unknown to us, and no people building up a legend would allow that to be so.’—C. S. Lewis, God in the Dock. t would require much exotic calculation, however, to deny that the single most powerful figure—not merely in these two millenniums but in all human history—has been Jesus of Nazareth.”—Reynolds Price, American writer and Bible scholar. “A man who was completely innocent offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act.”—Mohandas K. Gandhi, political and spiritual leader of India. “As a child, I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.”—Albert Einstein, German-born scientist. “Jesus Christ, to me, is the outstanding personality of all time, all history, both as Son of God and as Son of Man. Everything He ever said or did has value for us today, and that is something you can say of no other man, alive or dead.”—Sholem Asch, Polish-born essayist as quoted in Christian Herald; italics theirs. “For thirty five years of my life I was, in the proper acceptation of the word, nihilist, a man who believed in nothing. Five years ago my faith came to me. I believed in the doctrine of Jesus Christ and my whole life underwent a sudden transformation.”—Count Leo Tolstoy, Russian novelist and philosopher. “[Jesus’] life is the most influential ever lived on this planet and its effect continues to mount.”—Kenneth Scott Latourette, American historian and author. “Shall we suppose the evangelic history a mere fiction? Indeed, my friend, it bears not the marks of fiction. On the contrary, the history of Socrates, which nobody presumes to doubt, is not so well attested as that of Jesus Christ.”—Jean-Jacques Rousseau, French philosopher. Please enlighten us as to who these people were referring to if Jesus Christ never existed.
It is very damaging to the theory of Intelligent Design to wrap the belief in the mythical Jesus around acceptance of a theory about Biology.
It’s also very dangerous for a person to spew ignorance on a public forum. Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Skipping through most of the stuff above, it’s been well established by Historians (oh, you’re not a Historian? Then why do you feel qualified to state an opinion on History?) that the references to Jesus in Josephus are a forgery, and many manuscripts of Josephus’s history exist with no mention of Jesus. As with experimental results supporting Evolution, if you have to FAKE the data for Historical Jesus, it’s sure sign that there is no real evidence.
What about non-Biblical references to Jesus Christ? How are they assessed? The works of Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and a few other classical writers include numerous references to Jesus. Of them, The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1995) says: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.” Bolded for emphasis. It's sad to see that modern scholars have resorted to baseless speculation, pointless doubts, and unfounded theorizing. They're guilty of the same mythologizing that they accuse the Gospel writers of and, more importantly, they fail to examine honestly the evidence about Jesus.Barb
October 6, 2014
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Rod, I agree in principle. However, expertise -- real focussed expertise on C1 Palestine and the NT texts and context -- is much rarer than a fair degree of knowledge on biological facts in an age where essentially anyone with a High School ed has done a course or two in bio. So, in this field of history we are far more reliant on known relevant expertise and responsible summary of the relevant body of actual knowledge [as opposed to imposing ideological or worldview level question-begging grids], especially when a scholar is making controversial claims. From context, Carrier is arguing Jesus of Nazareth is a fictional non-historic character, not just that he performed no miracles [which typically is driven by an ideological or worldview assumption]. On what warrant -- grounds in facts, research and resulting evidence, with cogent and non question-begging reasoning -- does he make that very strong claim in the teeth of four biographies that can be traced in successive times to 95 - 115 AD, and a history directly successive to one of the four known to be painstakingly and subtly habitually accurate, as well as the more or less consensus view of the field that on balance the evidence warrants that there was such a person on the ground in Palestine in early C1? (Please note my linked from 37 and onward linked materials.) KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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As a general rule, as we get farther away from an established historical event, it is disengenuous to completely revise. The early Jesus followers have the highest authority. The next generation less. The next less. Now we are in the 21st century and think we can supplant the first generation? Narcissism and ego. If we only had a single fragment, just five verses, 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, which dates somewhere early 30s to early 40s AD, that would be sufficient. But then there's the entirety of canon (over 25,000 early extant materials) and church fathers, which frankly is absolutely overwhelming. That we can add any non-canonical references to the body of evidence is entirely remarkable for an ancient historical person who was not a high-born political warrior. Anyone who asks for more evidence for EXISTENCE is not being honest with himself.jw777
October 6, 2014
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GR, yes, a useful vid on a subtlety of fitting in with the times in a way not plausible for something that is not a summary of eyewitness reports. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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KF, I'm not arguing for or against Carrier, I'm just saying we should assess what he has to say on its merits, and not discount his vies because of inadequate qualifications. I think you agree with this because you obviously want your position to be taken seriously, so we should do the same with Carrier. Dismissing him because of some arbitrary lack of qualification seems at best a distraction, and worse rather defensive. And there is the perception of a double standard. Again, if we applied this standard to the contributors here we would have to dismiss much of what is posted here.roding
October 6, 2014
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