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Now Jerry Coyne doubts the historical existence of Jesus Christ

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Jerry Coyne has written a post in which he states that he is inclined to believe that Jesus never existed, although he hasn’t made up his mind yet. And on what does Coyne base his tentative opinion? An article in the Huffington Post by a biopsychologist named Nigel Barber, a self-published book by a systems engineer, Michael Paulkovich, which Coyne admits he hasn’t read, and finally, another book which he hasn’t read, written by atheist activist Richard Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history, but who (judging from his Wikipedia biography) has no teaching or research position at any accredited institution. [Update: according to his C.V., Carrier teaches classes at the Center for Inquiry Institute Online (a think tank founded in 1987) using a Moodle interface, and is also an online instructor with Partners for Secular Activism. As far as I can tell, the only accredited program offered by CFI is an Ed.M. program in Science and the Public, in partnership with the Graduate School of Education of the University at Buffalo. However, Carrier does not teach this course.]

I wonder what Coyne would think of a critique of Darwin’s theory of evolution, written by a biopsychologist, a systems engineer and finally, a prominent evolution critic with a Ph.D. in biology, who had never taught the subject at any university. Not much, I think. I find it odd, then, that he is prepared to set aside the opinions of all reputable historians with relevant expertise in the field, on the question of whether Jesus existed.

Writes Coyne:

I have to say that I’m coming down on the “mythicist” side, simply because I don’t see any convincing historical records for a Jesus person. Everything written about him was decades after his death, and, as far as I can see, there is no contemporaneous record of a Jesus-person’s existence (what “records” exist have been debunked as forgeries). Yet there should have been some evidence, especially if Jesus had done what the Bible said. But even if he was simply an apocalyptic preacher, as [scholar Bart] Ehrman insists, there should have been at least a few contemporaneous records. Based on their complete absence, I am for the time being simply a Jesus agnostic. But I don’t pretend to be a scholar in this area, or even to have read a lot of the relevant literature.

Actually, we have excellent documentary evidence for the existence of Jesus from two historians writing in the first century: Josephus and Tacitus.

Josephus (A.D. 37 – c.100) may have been born a few years after the death of Jesus, but he was a personal eyewitness of the execution of Jesus’ brother, James (who may have actually been a half-brother or cousin of Jesus), in 62 A.D. As for Tacitus (c. 56 A.D. – 117 A.D.), he is considered to have been one of the greatest Roman historians, and as a Senator, he was likely to have had access to official Roman documents relating to Jesus’ trial, which took place about 80 years before he wrote his Annals, which states that Jesus was crucified during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius, and at the hands of the procurator, Pontius Pilate (Book 15, chapter 44).

The evidence from Josephus

Atheist Paul Tobin, creator of the skeptical Website The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager, has written an excellent article, The Death of James, in which he argues for the historical trustworthiness of Josephus’ description of the execution of James, whom he refers to as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ”:

The timing of the incident, the interregnum between Festus and Albinus, allows us to date this quite accurately to the summer of 62 CE. [1] Our confidence in the historicity of this account is bolstered by the fact that it was probably an eye witness account. Josephus mentioned in his Autobiography that he left Jerusalem for Rome when he was twenty-six years old. He date of birth was most likely around 37 CE. So at the time of James’ execution, the twenty five year old Josephus was a priest in Jerusalem.

The atheist amateur historian Tim O’Neill has written several blog posts rebutting the arguments of modern-day skeptics who deny the historicity of Jesus. O’Neill has no theological ax to grind here: indeed, he declares that he “would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings.” O’Neill exposes the shoddy scholarship of these “Mythers” (as he calls them) in a savagely critical review of “Jesus-Myther” David Fitzgerald’s recent book, Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that Show Jesus Never Existed at All. In the course of his lengthy review (dated May 28, 2011), O’Neill summarizes the evidence for Jesus’ historicity from the works of Josephus (bold highlighting mine – VJT):

As several surveys of the academic literature have shown, the majority of scholars now accept that there was an original mention of Jesus in Antiquities XVIII.3.4 and this includes the majority of Jewish and non-Christian scholars, not merely “wishful apologists”. This is partly because once the more obvious interpolated phrases are removed, the passage reads precisely like what Josephus would be expected to write and also uses characteristic language found elsewhere in his works. But it is also because of the 1970 discovery of what seems to be a pre-interpolation version of Josephus’ passage, uncovered by Jewish scholar Schlomo Pines of Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Professor Pines found an Arabic paraphrase of the Tenth Century historian Agapius which quotes Josephus’ passage, but not in the form we have it today. This version, which seems to draw on a copy of Josephus’ original, uninterpolated text, says that Jesus was believed by his followers to have been the Messiah and to have risen from the dead, which means in the original Josephus was simply reporting early Christian beliefs about Jesus regarding his supposed status and resurrection. This is backed further by a Syriac version cited by Michael the Syrian which also has the passage saying “he was believed to be the Messiah”. The evidence now stacks up heavily on the side of the partial authenticity of the passage, meaning there is a reference to Jesus as a historical person in precisely the writer we would expect to mention him…

The second mention is made in passing in a passage where Josephus is detailing an event of some significance and one which he, as a young man, would have witnessed himself.

In 62 AD, the 26 year old Josephus was in Jerusalem, having recently returned from an embassy to Rome. He was a young member of the aristocratic priestly elite which ruled Jerusalem and were effectively rulers of Judea, though with close Roman oversight and only with the backing of the Roman procurator in Caesarea. But in this year the procurator Porcius Festus died while in office and his replacement, Lucceius Albinus, was still on his way to Judea from Rome. This left the High Priest, Hanan ben Hanan (usually called Ananus), with a freer rein that usual. Ananus executed some Jews without Roman permission and, when this was brought to the attention of the Romans, Ananus was deposed.

This was a momentous event and one that the young Josephus, as a member of the same elite as the High Priest, would have remembered well. But what is significant is what he says in passing about the executions that that triggered the deposition of the High Priest:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so (the High Priest) assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Messiah, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.

…A major part of the problem with most manifestations of the Myther thesis is that its proponents desperately want it to be true because they want to undermine Christianity. And any historical analysis done with one eye on an emotionally-charged ideological agenda is usually heading for trouble from the start… Their biases against Christianity blind Mythers to the fact that they are not arriving at conclusions because they are the best or most parsimonious explanation of the evidence, but merely because they fit their agenda.

The overwhelming majority of scholars, Christian, non-Christian, atheist, agnostic or Jewish, accept there was a Jewish preacher as the point of origin for the Jesus story simply because that makes the most sense of all the evidence. The contorted and contrived lengths that Fitzgerald and his ilk have to resort to shows exactly how hard it is to sustain the idea that no such historical preacher existed. Personally, as an atheist amateur historian myself, I would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings, ad hoc explanations, imagined textual interpolations and fanciful suppositions.

It is sometimes alleged by “Jesus-Mythers” such as David Fitzgerald that both passages in Josephus are later interpolations, because the third-century Christian Father Origen supposedly declared that Josephus made no mention of Jesus in his writings. O’Neill handily disposes of this canard:

Not content with ignoring inconvenient key counter-evidence, [Jesus-Myther] Fitzgerald is also happy to simply make things up.  He talks about how the Second Century Christian apologist Origen does not mention the Antiquities XVII.3.4 reference to Jesus (which is true, but not surprising) and then claims “Origen even quotes from Antiquities of the Jews in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticises him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!” (p. 53)  Which might sound like a good argument to anyone who does not bother to check self-published authors’ citations.  But those who do will turn to Origen’s Contra Celsum I.4 and find the following:

Now this writer [Josephus], although not believing in Jesus as the Messiah, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was  “the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”,–the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice.

So Origen does not say Josephus “didn’t believe in Jesus”, just that he did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (which supports the Arabic and Syriac evidence on the pre-interpolation version of Antiquities XVII.3.4) And far from criticising Josephus “for failing to mention Jesus in that book”, Origen actually quotes Josephus directly doing exactly that – the phrase “αδελφος Ιησου του λεγομενου Χριστου” (the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”) is word for word the phrase used by Josephus in his other mention of Jesus, found at Antiquities XX.9.1.  And he does not refer to and quote Josephus mentioning Jesus just in Contra Celsum I.4, but he also does so twice more: in Contra Celsum II:13 and in Commentarium in evangelium Matthaei X.17.  It is hard to say if this nonsense claim of Fitzgerald’s is mere incompetence or simply a lie.  I will be charitable and put it down to another of this amateur’s bungles.

Tim O’Neill’s more recent online article, The Jesus Myth Theory: A Response to David Fitzgerald (December 1, 2013) is also well worth reading. It is a devastating take-down of the second-rate scholarship of Jesus-Mythers.

The evidence from the Roman historian Tacitus

Wikipedia provides a balanced overview of the evidence for Jesus’ historicity in its article, Tacitus on Christ, from which I have quoted the following excerpts:

Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now “firmly established” that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8]

In terms of an overall context, historian Ronald Mellor has stated that the Annals is “Tacitus’s crowning achievement” which represents the “pinnacle of Roman historical writing”.[9] The passage is also of historical value in establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[10][11]…

…Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to be genuine and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records.[5][6][7][41]

Van Voorst states that “of all Roman writers, Tacitus gives us the most precise information about Christ”.[40] John Dominic Crossan considers the passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states: “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus… agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact.”[52]

…Scholars have also debated the issue of hearsay in the reference by Tacitus. Charles Guignebert argued that “So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless”.[56] R. T. France states that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he had heard through Christians.[57] However, Paul R. Eddy has stated that as Rome’s preeminent historian, Tacitus was generally known for checking his sources and was not in the habit of reporting gossip.[23] Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: “Tacitus’s report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius’s reign.”[58]

References

5. Jesus and His Contemporaries: Comparative Studies by Craig A. Evans. 2001. ISBN 0-391-04118-5 page 42.
6. Mercer Dictionary of the Bible by Watson E. Mills and Roger Aubrey Bullard. 2001. ISBN 0-86554-373-9 page 343.
7. Pontius Pilate in History and Interpretation by Helen K. Bond. 2004. ISBN 0-521-61620-4 page xi.
8. The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition by Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd. Baker Academic, 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 page 127.
9. Tacitus’ Annals by Ronald Mellor. Oxford University Press. 2010. ISBN 0-19-515192-5 page 23.
10. Beginning from Jerusalem by James D. G. Dunn. William. B. Eerdmans, 2008. ISBN 0-8028-3932-0 pages 56-57.
11. Antioch and Rome: New Testament cradles of Catholic Christianity by Raymond Edward Brown, John P. Meier 1983. ISBN 0-8091-2532-3 page 99.
23. The Jesus legend: a case for the historical reliability of the synoptic gospels by Paul R. Eddy, et al. 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 pages 181-183.
40. Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence by Robert E. Van Voorst. William. B. Eerdmans, 2000. pp. 39- 53.
41. Tradition and Incarnation: Foundations of Christian Theology by William L. Portier 1993 ISBN 0-8091-3467-5 page 263.
52. Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography by John Dominic Crossan. HarperOne, 1995. ISBN 0-06-061662-8 page 145.
53. Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament by F.F. Bruce. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974. p. 23.
56. Jesus by Charles Guignebert. University Books, New York, 1956, p. 13.
57. France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing. pp. 19-20. ISBN 0-340-38172-8.
58. Ehrman p. 212

Who is Michael Paulkovich, anyway?

Michael Paulkovich, a systems engineer, is the recent author of a book called No Meek Messiah, excerpts from which can be found on this Web page. The following excerpts should put to rest any notion that Paulkovich has any credibility on historical matters (emphases are mine):

In No Meek Messiah I provide a list of 126 writers who should have recorded something of Jesus, with exhaustive references… [I was most amused to see Apollonius of Tyana, Epictetus, Petronius, Plotinus and Tiberius described as “historians” in Paulkovich’s list – VJT.]

Within a year after the decree by [Emperor] Theodosius [in 391 A.D.], crazed Christian monks of Nitria destroy the majestic Alexandrian Library largely because philosophy and science are taught there — not the Bible…

Christianity was made the only legal cult of the empire, and for the next 1500 years, good Christians would murder all non-Christians they could find by the tens of millions.

Early Christians believed all necessary knowledge was in the Bible and thus closed down schools, burned books, forbade teaching philosophy and destroyed libraries. The Jesus person portrayed in the Bible taught that “devils” and “sin” cause illness, and thus for some 1700 years good Christians ignored science and medicine to perform exorcisms on the ill…

Jesus has nothing against stealing, as he instructs his apostles to pinch a horse and a donkey from their rightful owner…

This Jesus character speaks highly of father Yahweh’s genocidal tantrums in Matthew 11:20-24…

Enough said?

Summary

People who are experts in one field are capable of appalling lapses of judgement when assessing the evidence in fields outside their own. By any objective criteria, there is abundant historical evidence that Jesus existed. Professor Coyne should have the grace to acknowledge this fact, and admit his error. But I’m not holding my breath.

NOTE: Kairosfocus has written an excellent post titled, Jeff Shallit: “Surely the right analogy is Santa Claus to Jesus Christ. Both are mythical figures . . . ” — spectacular Fail at History 101 in which he presents two videos summarizing the evidence for the existence of an historical Jesus.

Comments
BA77, thought this article about QM might interest you - in case you haven't seen it. Other UDers too, of course. Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I'm too computer illiterate to contact you otherwise. http://www.spacemart.com/reports/Putting_the_squeeze_on_quantum_information_999.htmlAxel
October 5, 2014
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jstanley01, thanks, you put a smile on my face! :)bornagain77
October 5, 2014
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Mahuna - there is very good evidence aspects of Josephus' work was added to or modified in some limited places thus call into question its complete legitimacy but there is better evidence sections are very reliable and additionally Josephus is as already stated not the only extra-biblical source referring to Jesus. This does not even go into the extremely reliable gospel accounts and their close proximity to the events, too close to warrant legend and myth (within the same generation) and closer and more copies than any other historic document. You can deny the existence of Jesus as historic fact but the evidence is stacked against you. Even many atheist historians don't deny the existence of Jesus. They question or deny the miraculous events and resurrection, but most do not deny his existence.Dr JDD
October 5, 2014
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BA: Here's a miracle, along the lines of those Keener has documented in his book, that I personally witnessed within the last couple of days. When a good friend of mine -- through thin and thick for almost a decade -- received news on par with the best good news I've ever heard. A year or so ago, Mike had surgery for bladder cancer. Then a few weeks ago tests came back, including a PET scan, showing that it was back. Mike's medical protocol, this second go 'round, had progressed to the point that his doctors were ready to schedule another surgery. The plan this time, along with chemo and radiation, was to remove his bladder; leaving Mike, as it were, "holding the bag." Over the course of events, Mike attended a Christian get together where he was prayed for and ministered to. Mike said, "I know I was healed at that time." So before he would agree on beginning treatment, he told his doctors, "I don't know if you believe in God's healing power or not, but I'm not going to let you schedule anything until you test me again." This time, inexplicably from any kind of medical standpoint, the scan came up negative. No trace of cancer. Mike told me on the phone, "I've got the doctor's report sitting in front of me, right here." They want to see him again in a few weeks, but otherwise, that's it. I don't expect the above, posted by some anonymous dude on the Internet, to change the minds of any of the "Amazing Randi" types. And frankly, I couldn't care less. I know what happened, I was there along with several others including Mike's wife. His healing is going to throw a cheery light across our hearts for the rest of our lives, running our races and finishing our course. BTW BA: Here's a couple of other videos for your arsenal on the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ: The Resurrection Argument That Changed a Generation of Scholars - Gary Habermas at UCSB Death, Sacrifice, and Resurrection - David Bentley Hartjstanley01
October 5, 2014
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There is no evidence for a historical person corresponding to the main character in the Christian gospels. This was well established in the 19th century, and no less a person than Albert Schweitzer stated that publicly. It is very damaging to the theory of Intelligent Design to wrap the belief in the mythical Jesus around acceptance of a theory about Biology. Skipping through most of the stuff above, it's been well established by Historians (oh, you're not a Historian? Then why do you feel qualified to state an opinion on History?) that the references to Jesus in Josephus are a forgery, and many manuscripts of Josephus's history exist with no mention of Jesus. As with experimental results supporting Evolution, if you have to FAKE the data for Historical Jesus, it's sure sign that there is no real evidence.mahuna
October 5, 2014
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'coincidentally' : Why Is There Even A Jesus Myth Theory? - October 4, 2014 http://www.christianapologeticsalliance.com/2014/10/04/why-is-there-even-a-jesus-myth-theory/bornagain77
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The following 'non-destructive' test dated the Shroud more accurately than Rogers was able to do (due to the small sample size he had to work with).
Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery' - 28 Mar 2013 Excerpt: Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud,,, The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD.,,, Scientists have never been able to explain how the image of a man's body, complete with nail wounds to his wrists and feet, pinpricks from thorns around his forehead and a spear wound to his chest, could have formed on the cloth. Mr Fanti said the imprint was caused by a blast of “exceptional radiation”, although he stopped short of describing it as a miracle. He said his tests backed up earlier results which claimed to have found on the shroud traces of dust and pollen which could only have come from the Holy Land.,,, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9958678/Turin-Shroud-is-not-a-medieval-forgery.html
The following evidence dates the Shroud even more accurately than the preceding method did,,,
The Shroud of Turin - Evidence it is authentic Excerpt: In June 2002, the Shroud was sent to a team of experts for restoration. One of them was Swiss textile historian Mechthild Flury-Lemberg. She was surprised to find a peculiar stitching pattern in the seam of one long side of the Shroud, where a three-inch wide strip of the same original fabric was sewn onto a larger segment. The stitching pattern, which she says was the work of a professional, is quite similar to the hem of a cloth found in the tombs of the Jewish fortress of Masada. The Masada cloth dates to between 40 BC and 73 AD. This kind of stitch has never been found in Medieval Europe. http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html Shroud Of Turin - Sewn From Two Pieces - 2000 Years Old (Matches Masada Cloth) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uST6qt9pfoo
Here is a article which undermined the credibility of the carbon dating from a completely different angle;
Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
Although the marks on the Shroud required a 'preternatural degree of energy' in order to be made, the marks on the Shroud also reveal that the image was not formed haphazardly as would happen in a 'blast of radiation', but the marks were formed by in a very precise, 'quantum', manner:
The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values - Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio - 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the 'quantum' is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271
That the image was formed by a quantum process, and not by a classical process, also adds significant weight to the fact that the Shroud is not a medeval forgery. Moreover, I personally hold that since the image was formed by a quantum process, and not by a classical process, then the shroud provides empirical evidence that General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics/Special Relativity (QED) were unified by the resurrection of Christ from death into the much sought after 'theory of everything'.
The Galileo Affair and “Life/Consciousness” as the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3D state is centered on each individual conscious observer in the universe, whereas, 4D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism, Christian Theism in particular, offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe. [15] Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. Moreover, from a slightly different angle, ‘Life’, with a capital L, is also found to be central to the universe in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead provides a very credible reconciliation to the most profound enigma in modern science. Namely the unification of General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics/Special Relativity (Quantum Electrodynamics) into a ‘Theory of Everything’: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit The Center Of The Universe Is Life (Jesus) - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://vimeo.com/34084462
All this evidence just fits together all too neatly! Thus, although I believed in Christ before studying the Shroud (and physics), after careful analysis of the evidence, I am now more convinced than ever that Jesus is the living Son of God who overcame death on our behalf: Verse and Music:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. "Alive" - W,Lyrics, By Natalie Grant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFpgzjRD44
bornagain77
October 5, 2014
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Moreover, recently 3-Dimensional holographic information has been found on the Shroud of Turin:
Shroud in 3-D - FINDINGS IN THE THREE DIMENSIONAL MATERIALS http://shroud3d.com/findings/findings-in-the-three-dimensional-materials Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - photos and links https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=J21MECNU Solid Oval Object Under The Beard http://shroud3d.com/findings/solid-oval-object-under-the-beard
In spite of many other, more reliable, lines of evidence establishing the Shroud as authentic, many people unquestionably accepted the carbon dating of the Shroud in 1988 as valid and presumed the Shroud to be a medieval fake. Yet, the carbon dating question has now been thoroughly addressed and refuted by Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford in 2000. Their research, with textile experts, showing the carbon testing was done with a piece of the Shroud which was subject to expert medieval reweaving in the 1500’s had much historical, and photographic, evidence behind it. Their historical, and photographic, evidence was then scientifically confirmed by chemical analysis in 2005 by Raymond Rogers (who was the lead chemist on the STURP team as well as a skeptic). Thus, the fact that a false age was shown by the 1988 carbon testing is now well established as far as the scientific evidence itself is concerned.
New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating - Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford - video (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE The following is the main peer reviewed paper which has refuted the 1988 Carbon Dating: Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425 pages 189-194, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California) Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.ntskeptics.org/issues/shroud/shroudold.htm
Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory:
Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review Excerpt: Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today. http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-custodians-of-time/
This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which confirms the Rogers' paper:
“Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case....... LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. - Robert Villarreal - Los Alamos National Laboratory http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DPPWDPNX
bornagain77
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The Shroud of Turin is one of the most scientifically scrutinized historical artifacts in recorded history.
List of Evidences of the Turin Shroud - 2010 http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/FantiListWeb.pdf
Here is the main website for the Shroud of Turin which was est. 1995 by Barrie Schwortz – photographer for the 1978 STURP (Shroud of Turin Research Project), The site has links to all the peer reviewed papers on the Shroud and etc.. etc..
Bibliography of Published STURP Papers http://www.shroud.com/78papers.htm Scientific Papers and Articles on Shroud http://www.shroud.com/papers.htm
The forensic evidence on the Shroud is uncanny in its matching of the details of the crucifixion as given in the Bible.
Forensic evidence of the Shroud of Turin – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5QEsaNiMVc Detailed Forensic Evidence of The Shroud - video Excerpt: "it is definitely an anatomically and forensically correct depiction of a victim of a Roman crucifixion." http://www.shroud-enigma.com/wall_1/autopsy/turin-shroud-forensic-pathology.html Turin Shroud: a medical forensic study of its blood marks and image - G.Lavoie - May 2010 Abstract - From extensive analytical studies of the Shroud of Turin we know that the image is not man-made, and from medical forensic studies of the blood marks we know that a crucified man was laid out on his back and wrapped in this cloth. But the question still remains as to what caused the shroud image. A forensic evaluation of the blood marks and a study of the effect of gravity on surface anatomy suggest that a natural event is not the most probable cause of shroud image formation. http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/LavoieWeb.pdf
Through a rigid process of elimination, through all materialistic possibilities, it becomes crystal clear that the way in which the photographic negative, (and uniquely three dimensional), image of the man on the Shroud of Turin had to be imprinted was 'supernatural' in its process. Specifically, the finding of a photographic negative image on the Shroud is still as much a mystery today as when it was first discovered by Secondo Pia in 1898.
A short film about the first photographic negative taken of the shroud of Turin in 1898 by Secondo Pia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTeKu2-3hRk Shroud (STURP) photographer convinced of authenticity - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fyUHhTdSAs The Turin Shroud - Comparing Image And Photographic Negative - interactive webpage http://www.shroud.com/shrdface.htm
bornagain77
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F/N 2: I also find that ever so many skeptics today wish to impugn the ethics of the Judaeo-Christian tradition in order to alienate people from the now well-poisoned tradition. This is present in some of the cited remarks from the OP, but is inexcusable, and I challenge all such to fairly read and respond honestly to the central ethical teachings of that tradition as presented by its principal teacher, the self same Jesus of Nazareth in the most famous sermon of all time: ____________ >> Matthew 5-7English Standard Version (ESV) The Sermon on the Mount 5 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. The Beatitudes 2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: 3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. 5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. 9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God. 10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Salt and Light 13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet. 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that[b] they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Christ Came to Fulfill the Law 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Anger 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[e] of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.[f] Lust 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. Divorce 31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Oaths 33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.[g] Retaliation 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[h] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. Love Your Enemies 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Giving to the Needy 6 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. The Lord's Prayer 5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.[j] 10 Your kingdom come, your will be done,[k] on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread,[l] 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.[m] 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Fasting 16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Lay Up Treasures in Heaven 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[n] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.[o] Do Not Be Anxious 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[p] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. 34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. Judging Others 7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. Ask, and It Will Be Given 7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! The Golden Rule 12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[q] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. A Tree and Its Fruit 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. I Never Knew You 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Build Your House on the Rock 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” The Authority of Jesus 28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. Footnotes: Matthew 5:9 Greek huioi; see Preface Matthew 5:16 Or house. 16Let your light so shine before others that Matthew 5:22 Some manuscripts insert without cause Matthew 5:22 Greek says Raca to (a term of abuse) Matthew 5:22 Greek Gehenna; also verses 29, 30 Matthew 5:26 Greek kodrantes, Roman copper coin (Latin quadrans) worth about 1/64 of a denarius (which was a day's wage for a laborer) Matthew 5:37 Or the evil one Matthew 5:40 Greek chiton, a long garment worn under the cloak next to the skin Matthew 5:47 Or brothers and sisters. The plural Greek word adelphoi (translated “brothers”) refers to siblings in a family. In New Testament usage, depending on the context, adelphoi may refer either to brothers or to brothers and sisters Matthew 6:9 Or Let your name be kept holy, or Let your name be treated with reverence Matthew 6:10 Or Let your kingdom come, let your will be done Matthew 6:11 Or our bread for tomorrow Matthew 6:13 Or the evil one; some manuscripts add For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever. Amen Matthew 6:19 Or worm; also verse 20 Matthew 6:24 Greek mammon, a Semitic word for money or possessions Matthew 6:27 Or a single cubit to his stature; a cubit was about 18 inches or 45 centimeters Matthew 7:13 Some manuscripts For the way is wide and easy>> ____________ If we find critics failing to address this on balance, they are setting up strawman caricatures which they hope to poison and set alight to poison, cloud, polarise and confuse the atmosphere. KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2014
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F/N: To get a glimpse at a 101 on the historicity of Jesus in the context of the foundation of the gospel, kindly cf here on. Someone who c 2014 is reasonably educated and publicly casts dismissive skepticism on the basic historicity of Jesus of Nazareth has discredited himself, period. I can see with someone who doubts the claimed miracle of a resurrection from the dead [and the linked will address this issue too], but at minimum a reasonable, reasonably informed person will see that the decisive weight of evidence is that Jesus of Nazareth was a real live person of C1 Palestine who was an itinerant preacher and got into trouble for challenging the local and colonial authorities, ending up a victim of abuse of high justice. KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2014
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Supplemental notes: My new book is finished! It’s a Miracle! – Eric Metaxas Excerpt: Have you ever wondered what a miracle is, or why miracles happen — or how miracles can change your life? What a coincidence — or is it a miracle? — because I’ve written a NEW book titled Miracles: What They Are, Why They Happen, and How They Can Change Your Life! The book will be launched on Oct. 28th (2014) at a special Socrates in the City event with our first ever guest host, none other than TV legend and Emmy Award-winning talk show host, Mr. Dick Cavett! He will interview me on the subject of miracles — but the event will be simulcast so anyone can watch it. http://www.ericmetaxas.com/blog/my-new-book-is-finished-its-a-miracle/ Craig Keener- Miracles Symposium – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn73J9A0SnU Dr. Craig Keener, author of “Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts” discusses in this web series some of the accounts of people being raised from the dead and people being healed of sicknesses from around the world. – video playlist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE6sDPPQ7WA&list=PLC900F8EEB62AE426&feature=plcp&context=C43901d1FDvjVQa1PpcFPmClYI6nDQbdabTL_qw7jCisfOqOmxOyU=bornagain77
October 5, 2014
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Dr. Torley, although the historical evidence, as you have shown, for the minimal claim that Jesus existed is very good, (it has been said that we have more historical evidence that Jesus existed than we do for any other ancient historical figure), as to the more weighty claim that Jesus died and rose from the dead as a propitiation for our sins, and is alive right now, we also have excellent evidence. First and foremost as to establishing the fact that Jesus rose from the dead, and is alive right now, there are millions of people in the world, including myself, who have personally experienced a touch of Jesus Christ in their lives when they have called on Him in times of need in their lives.
Meeting Jesus Face to Face: Encounter while arrested in Iran - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilSjpNuqn-4 Have You Experienced Jesus - Episode 8 - video Excerpt: At the 6:40 minute mark of this video, Kay Sorenson a former Las Vegas Singer at the age of 46 had an amazing born again experience https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNcXkMxQjDU&feature=player_detailpage#t=400s SQuire Rushnell's Godwink Story for Easter - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kCsnU8yjg8 Strange But True - Miracle Testimony https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfNTNocmRjZGtkdg&hl=en
etc.. etc.. In fact I am reading a book right now,,,
Face to Face with Jesus: A Former Muslim's Extraordinary Journey to Heaven and Encounter with the God of Love http://www.amazon.com/Face-Jesus-Muslims-Extraordinary-Encounter/dp/0800795792/
,,, in which a little girl, who grew up in a strict Muslim family in a Muslim country torn by a civil war, although she prayed fervently and faithfully as a devout Muslim would pray, realized that the god of the Muslims was not answering her prayers. When in desperation she turned to the 'infidel' Christian God, whom she called 'The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob', and her simple prayer for food to eat was answered, she, the youngest member of her strict Muslim family, realized that Christianity was true and turned to Christianity. Although she experienced fierce presecution for following Christ, (mostly from her own family), the faith that this small girl displayed, and the miracles that happened through that faith, eventually won her entire family over one by one.,,, Her story is truly an extraordinary testimony. more later,,,bornagain77
October 5, 2014
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Does Coyne take the same approach to evaluation of evidence and its purveyors in evolutionary biology as he seems to in history?News
October 5, 2014
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I think you have to at least believe there was an individual called Jesus even if you think what his followers said about him is a load of propaganda.Chimera
October 5, 2014
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vjtorley, Denying the obvious is old proven atheist propaganda tool. It matters not how many times evidence is presented to them denials will continue.inunison
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