Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Of coin-tosses, expectation, materialistic question-begging and forfeit of credibility by materialists

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Yesterday, I crossed a Rubicon, for cause, on seeing the refusal to stop from enabling denial and correct and deal with slander on the part of even the most genteel of the current wave of critics.

It is time to face what we are dealing with squarely: ideologues on the attack.  (Now, in a wave of TSZ denizens back here at UD and hoping to swarm down, twist into pretzels, ridicule and dismiss the basic case for design.)

coin-flip
Flipping a coin . . . is it fair? (Cr: Making Near Future Predictions, fair use)

Sal C has been the most prolific recent contributor at UD, and a pivotal case he has put forth is the discovery of a box of five hundred coins, all heads.

What is the best explanation?

The talking point gymnastics to avoid the obvious conclusion that have been going on for a while now, have been sadly instructive on the mindset of the committed ideological materialist and that of his or her fellow travellers.

(For those who came in 30 years or so late, “fellow travellers” is a term of art that described those who made common cause with the outright Marxists, on one argument or motive or another. I will not cite Lenin’s less polite term for such.  The term, fellow traveller, is of obviously broader applicability and relevance today.)

Now, I intervened just now in a thread that further follows up on the coin tossing exercise and wish to headline the comment:

_____________

>> I observe:

NR, at 5: >> Biological organisms do not look designed >>

The above clip and the wider thread provide a good example of the sort of polarisation and refusal to examine matters squarely on the merits that too often characterises objectors to design theory.

coin_prob_percent
A plot of typical patterns of coin tossing, showing the overwhelming trend for the average percent of H’s to move to the mean, as a percentage even as the absolute difference between H and T will diverge across time.  (Credit: problemgambling.ca, fair use)

In the case of coin tossing, all heads, all tails, alternating H and T, etc. are all obvious patterns that are simply describable (i.e. without in effect quoting the strings). Such patterns can be assigned a set of special zones, Z = {z1, z2, z3 . . . zn} of one or more outcomes, in the space of possibilities, W.

Thus is effected a partition of the configuration space.

It is quite obvious that |W| >> |Z|, overwhelmingly so; let us symbolise this |W| >> . . . > |Z|.

Now, we put forth the Bernoulli-Laplace indifference assumption that is relevant here through the stipulation of a fair coin. (We can examine symmetry etc of a coin, or do frequency tests to see that such will for practical purposes be close enough. It is not hard to see that unless a coin is outrageously biased, the assumption is reasonable. [BTW, this implies that it is formally possible that if a fair coin is tossed 500 times, it is logically possible that it will be all heads. But that is not the pivotal point.])

When we do an exercise of tossing, we are in fact doing a sample of W, in which the partition that a given outcome, si in S [the set of possible samples], comes from, will be dominated by relative statistical weight. S is of course such that |S| >> . . . > |W|. That is, there are far more ways to sample from W in a string of actual samples s1, s2, . . . sn, than there are number of configs in W.

(This is where the Marks-Dembski search for a search challenge, S4S, comes in. Sampling the samplings can be a bigger task than sampling the set of possibilities.)

Where, now, we have a needle in haystack problem that on the gamut of the solar system [our practical universe for chemical level atomic interactions], the number of samples that is possible as an actual exercise is overwhelmingly smaller than S, and indeed than W.

Under these circumstances, we take a sample si, 500 tosses.

The balance of the partitions is such that by all but certainty, we will find a cluster of H & T in no particular order, close to 250 H: 250 T. The farther away one gets from that balance, the less likely it will be, through the sharp peaked-ness of the binomial distribution of fair coin tosses.

Under these circumstances, we have no good reason to expect to see a special pattern like 500 H, etc. Indeed, such a unique and highly noticeable config will predictably — with rather high reliability — not be observed once on the gamut of the observed solar system, even were the solar system dedicated to doing nothing but tossing coins for its lifespan.

That is chance manifest in coin tossing is not a plausible account for 500 H, or the equivalent, a line of 500 coins in a tray all H’s.

However, if we were now to come upon a tray with 500 coins, all H’s, we can very plausibly account for it on a known, empirically grounded causal pattern: intelligent designers exist and have been known to set highly contingent systems to special values suited to their purposes.

Indeed, such are the only empirically warranted sources.

Where, for instance we are just such intelligences.

So, the reasonable person coming on a tray of 500 coins in a row, all H, will infer that per best empirically warranted explanation, design is the credible cause. (And that person will infer the same if a coin tossing exercises presented as fair coin tossing, does the equivalent. We can reliably know that design is involved without knowing the mechanism.)

Nor does this change if the discoverer did not see the event happening. That is, from a highly contingent outcome that does not fit chance very well but does fit design well, one may properly infer design as explanation.

Indeed, that pattern of a specific, recognisable pattern utterly unlikely by chance but by no means inherently unlikely to the point of dismissal by design, is a plausible sign of design as best causal explanation.

The same would obtain if instead of 500 H etc, we discovered that the coins were in a pattern that spelled out, using ASCII code, remarks in English or object code for a computer, etc. In this case, the pattern is recognised as a functionally specific, complex one.

Why then, do we see such violent opposition to inferring design on FSCO/I etc in non-toy cases?

Obviously, because objectors are making or are implying the a priori stipulation (often unacknowledged, sometimes unrecognised) that it is practically certain that no designer is POSSIBLE at the point in question.

For under such a circumstance, chance is the only reasonable candidate left to account for high contingency. (Mechanical necessity does not lead to high contingency.)

So, we see why there is a strong appearance of design, and we see why there is a reluctance or even violently hostile refusal to accept that that appearance can indeed be a good reason to accept that on the inductively reliable sign FSCO/I and related analysis, design is the best causal explanation.

In short, we are back to the problem of materialist ideology dressed up in a lab coat.

I think the time has more than come to expose that, and to highlight the problems with a priori materialism as a worldview, whether it is dressed up in a lab coat or not.

We can start with Haldane’s challenge:

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter. [[“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]

This and other related challenges (cf here on in context) render evolutionary materialism so implausible as a worldview that we may safely dismiss it. Never mind how it loves to dress up in a lab coat and shale the coat at us as if to frighten us.

So, the reasonable person, in the face of such evidence, will accept the credibility of the sign — FSCO/I — and the possibility of design that such a strong and empirically grounded appearance points to.

But, notoriously, ideologues are not reasonable persons.

For further illustration, observe above the attempt to divert the discussion into definitions of what an intelligent and especially a conscious intelligent agent is.

Spoken of course, by a conscious intelligent agent who is refusing to accept that the billions of us on the ground are examples of what intelligent designers are. Nope, until you can give a precising definition acceptable to him [i.e. inevitably, consistent with evolutionary materialism — which implies or even denies that such agency is possible leading to self referential absurdity . . . ], he is unwilling to accept the testimony of his own experience and observation.

I call that a breach of common sense and self referential incoherence.>>

____________

The point is, the credibility of materialist ideologues is fatally undermined by their closed-minded demand to conform to unreasonable a prioris. Lewontin’s notorious cat- out- of- the- bag statement in NYRB, January 1997 is emblematic:

. . . . the problem is to get [the public] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . .

[T]he practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [“Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. of course, it is a commonplace materialist talking point to dismiss such a cite as “quote mining. I suggest that if you are tempted to believe that convenient dismissal, kindly cf the linked, where you will see the more extensive cite and notes.]

No wonder, in November that year, ID thinker Philip Johnson rebutted:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
 
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Too often, such ideological closed-mindedness and question-begging multiplied by a propensity to be unreasonable, ruthless and even nihilistic or at least to be an enabler going along with such ruthlessness.

Which ends up back at the point that when — not if, such an utterly incoherent system is simply not sustainable, and is so damaging to the moral stability of a society that it will inevitably self-destruct [cf. Plato’s warning here, given 2,350 years ago]  — such materialism lies utterly defeated and on the ash-heap of history, there will come a day of reckoning for the enablers, who will need to take a tour of their shame and explain or at least ponder why they went along with the inexcusable.

Hence the ugly but important significance of the following picture in which, shortly after its liberation, American troops forced citizens of nearby Wiemar to tour Buchenwald so that  the people of Germany who went along as enablers with what was done in the name of their nation by utterly nihilistic men they allowed to rule over them, could not ever deny the truth of their shame thereafter:

Buchenwald01
A tour of shame at Buchenwald, showing here the sad, shocking but iconic moment when a woman from the nearby city of Wiemar could not but avert her eyes in horror and shame for what nihilistic men — enabled by the passivity of the German people in the face of the rise of an obviously destructive ideology since 1932 — had done in the name of her now forever tainted nation

It is time to heed Francis Schaeffer in his turn of the 1980’s series, Whatever Happened to the Human Race, an expose of the implications and agendas of evolutionary materialist secular humanism that was ever so much derided and dismissed at the time, but across time has proved to be dead on target even as we now have reached the threshold of post-birth abortion and other nihilistic horrors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uoFkVroRyY

And, likewise, we need to heed a preview of the tour of shame to come, Expelled by Ben Stein:

Finally, we need to pause and listen to Weikart’s warning from history in this lecture:

Yes, I know, these things are shocking, painful, even offensive to the genteel; who are too often to be found in enabling denial of the patent facts and will be prone to blame the messenger instead of deal with the problem.

However, as a descendant of slaves who is concerned for our civilisation’s trends in our time, I must speak. Even as the horrors of the slave ship and the plantation had to be painfully, even shockingly exposed two centuries and more past.

I must ask you, what genteel people sipping their slave-sugared tea 200 years ago,  thought of images like this:

African_woman_slave_trade
An African captive about to be whipped on a slave-trade ship, revealing the depravity of ruthless men able to do as they please with those in their power (CR: Wiki)

Sometimes, the key issues at stake in a given day are not nice and pretty, and some ugly things need to be faced, if horrors of the magnitude of the century just past are to be averted in this new Millennium. END

Comments
Sal:
Largely, but not totally. It was helpful to show the chance hypothesis in specialized cases could be rejected without CSI. That was my point.
Fair enough. I do think we all misunderstood you as implying that the fair coins were tossed. Given that we now know that you meant they could have been laid down by some other method, then your original statement was OK. It's just that having specified "fair coins" it seemed odd that you were saying we should infer shenanigans. You seemed to have ruled shenanigans a priori. But it turns out there's more than one way to skin a shenanigan.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PDT
KeithS, Irrespective of what I say, I don't withdraw what you assented to:
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins
You said you agree with it, you swear by it so much you don't seem happy until I confess it. I just want to make sure the readers know your take on the things. I'd think, if you are so insistent I and others agree with you, you wouldn't be embarrassed that I repeat exactly what it is you want people to subscribe to. I suspect in your heart you know it is a stupid sounding statement. You accuse me of writing poorly, but well, you can't even object to obviously far worse writing and distortion by eigenstate. I admit mistakes, even if I lose face. You on the other hand, seem eager to project infallibility when debating creationists. The result, you go around at UD demanding I essentially agree with this stupid sounding statement:
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins
No Dice, or should I say, "No Coins" KeithS. It will follow you around at UD from now on. Personally, I hope you never back down from it. UD is getting too much enjoyable mileage out of it as you can see.scordova
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PDT
Sal, Another false accusation:
One result was KeithS got on a crusade to make me confess this creed:
All I've ever asked is for you to acknowledge that you were incorrect to challenge eigenstate, and to withdraw your false accusations against him and me.
in effect he wants me to interpret what I said the way he wants not the way I intended it.
No. I don't care how you interpret it, and I've never asked you to change your interpretation. I've asked you to withdraw your false accusation against eigenstate. What eigenstate wrote is correct. Read it again -- it's in my preceding comment. And unlike you, I didn't quotemine him.keiths
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
01:02 PM
1
01
02
PM
PDT
Sal, It amazes me that you want to keep this discussion going, since it reflects so poorly on you. You make yet another dishonest accusation against eigenstate:
Either way, he misread what I said, and attributed his misreading to my supposed sloppy thinking.
No. Here's what eigenstate actually wrote (bolding mine):
Maybe that’s just sloppily written, but if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, given your qualification (“fair coin”), that is outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins, and as an instance of the ensemble of outcomes that make up any statistical distribution you want to review. That is, physics is just as plausibly the driver for “all heads” as ANY OTHER SPECIFIC OUTCOME. You must have been trying to make a different point than how this came out. Are you trying to contrast an “all heads” outcome as a matter of chance with a competing hypothesis that the coins are “not fair” after all, as you stated they were, and that human or other interference has “rigged” the outcome?
He didn't accuse you of sloppy thinking, he accused you (correctly) of sloppy writing. And reading the last paragraph, it is absolutely clear that he did not misrepresent your position. Do you withdraw your false accusation?keiths
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
12:51 PM
12
12
51
PM
PDT
Actually, I’d say the Binomial Distribution is largely irrelevant.
Largely, but not totally. It was helpful to show the chance hypothesis in specialized cases could be rejected without CSI. That was my point. Hence the discussion was simplified to bare bones that everyone could understand if they were willing. One result was KeithS got on a crusade to make me confess this creed:
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins
in effect he wants me to interpret what I said the way he wants not the way I intended it. Where is the reasonableness in that? No Dice KeithS. I will not burn incense to that creed. It sounds stupid at best and it is stupid at worst.scordova
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
12:47 PM
12
12
47
PM
PDT
Elizabeth @30: And I'm not . . . but I don't expect ever to live in a world where we all agree on these basic issues, nor would I wish to - there's so much more to learn from people that are doing their best to demolish one's core beliefs (as long as the battle is joined with pens/keyboards and not swords). So HazMat suit or no - I'm not the least afraid of you Elizabeth. :-)owendw
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
12:14 PM
12
12
14
PM
PDT
Thanks owendw :) But remember I'm an atheist materialist Darwinist who thinks that Dembski's Specification paper is fundamentally flawed! So you might like to keep the HazMat suit on hand anyway.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
11:17 AM
11
11
17
AM
PDT
Elizabeth @28: Thanks - I wrote my comment before I had a chance to read your post @27 - I appreciate your additional explanation and I am relieved to know that, at least in your case, I can safely continue to read your posts without fear of DDS contamination. Not so confident about some of the others . . .owendw
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
10:58 AM
10
10
58
AM
PDT
Wouldn’t it also be uncontentious to say that no laws of physics would be broken if suddenly, without provocation, all of the molecules in a small room ended up on one side of the room; or would it conflict with the laws of physics to say that a burst of radio waves from space turned out to represent the first 1000 prime numbers?
That's an excellent point - I should have said "physical law" rather than the "Laws of Physics" - after all we do have Gas Laws in physics! So yes, I accept that emendation, and if that's the sense of "Laws of Physics" JDH meant, then I agree with him. I guess I was thinking of the fundamental physical forces, rather than human-made "laws", which are essentially reliable rules-of-thumb rather than fundamental truths about the world. No physical law is violated by a 500th Head. Gravity does not have to push instead of pull :)
In the latter case, if you insisted that, since it’s possible according to the laws of physics, therefore it’s reasonable to conclude that there’s no intelligent life beyond the earth, I do believe you would be exiled to some far off place where you could contemplate your errors and meanwhile do no further harm to the scientific enterprise.
Absolutely. It would be a quite unreasonable inference. As I've said many times, I'd be perfectly happy with a 5 sigma result, I don't need 22. Because something is possible doesn't mean that it's the most likely explanation.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PDT
Sal said above:
That is correct as it stand because I said inconsistent with Binomial Distribution, that connotes inconsistent with expectation.
Actually, I'd say the Binomial Distribution is largely irrelevant. A point that eigenstate made, correctly, is that alternating HTHTHTHTHTHTHT... would just as justifiably raise suspicion (indeed I'd be just as confident of rejecting "chance") as all Heads. Yet it's perfectly in line with the expected distribution under the Binomial Theorem, which doesn't tell us anything about the expected sequences only about the expected ratios The only sense in which the Binomial Theorem is relevant is because it tells us that there are simply MORE possible sequences with similar numbers of Heads and Tails than sequences with extreme H:T ratios. So clearly getting one of the former is much more probabable than getting one of the latter. But any small subset of sequences, however defined, should arouse our suspicions. This was the whole point of Dembski's Specification paper. If someone threw the same sequence twice, we should be just as suspicious, even if the sequences looked completely as expected under the binomial theorem, than if we threw all Heads. Similarly if we threw the ascending prime numbers in binary, or a repeating sequence, or the Da Vinci Code. Anything, in other words that is Special is a tiny subset of the total, and totally outnumbered by Non-Special sequences. So any Special sequence should make us call foul. And the reason is that it is not the sequence it itself that is either "random" or "non-random" - it is the process 10 Heads is perfectly random series, if it was thrown randomly. If the 10 Heads were laid in a line, it wouldn't be. Similarly HTTHHHHTHH is a random series if it was generated by random tosses. In fact it wasn't - I chose it quite carefully to "look" random. In other words randomness is not the property of a pattern, it's the property of a process. I know we all agree with this (after all, it's the process we are trying to infer) but it's worth reminding ourselves.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
10:37 AM
10
10
37
AM
PDT
Lizzie: "Nothing in the Laws of Physics that prevents 500 Heads being tossed. This is an uncontentious statement." Wouldn't it also be uncontentious to say that no laws of physics would be broken if suddenly, without provocation, all of the molecules in a small room ended up on one side of the room; or would it conflict with the laws of physics to say that a burst of radio waves from space turned out to represent the first 1000 prime numbers? In the latter case, if you insisted that, since it's possible according to the laws of physics, therefore it's reasonable to conclude that there's no intelligent life beyond the earth, I do believe you would be exiled to some far off place where you could contemplate your errors and meanwhile do no further harm to the scientific enterprise.owendw
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
10:37 AM
10
10
37
AM
PDT
oops, the first three lines above are, obviously, JDH's words.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
I heartily disagree. Physics is not a study of what could possibly happen, it is about what does happen. Put another way… “The Laws of Physics” are not about what could possibly be observed. JDH
“The Laws of Physics” are about what is observed. Like all sciences, Physics is about what is statistically significant enough to be observed. Not about what is so rare that it would never be observed during the time of the existence of the universe. If you have objections to this, please realize that all the “Laws of Physics” you so adore, are, because of Quantum Mechanics, statistical observations only.
Before I respond to this, I want to make it absolutely clear that I entirely agree that faced with an actual series of 500 (or even 20) Heads, claimed to be tossed fairly with a fair coin, I would call foul. In other words, I agree that it is totally valid to reject "fair coin, fairly tossed" in favour of "something fishy going on". So what follows is NOT a sly dig at the Design Inference. Indeed I myself (see link above) have suggested a formalisation of the Design Inference, using Bayes, which delivers an a posteriori probability of Something Fishy at a probability of virtually unity. So, having got rid of that baggage, let me explain what I mean: There are many natural processes in which what happens next is dependent on what went before. The result is that if we observe a time series of such data, they will be strongly autocorrelated. For example, an oscillator will produce something like a sine wave in which the value of each observation is strongly predicted by the value of the previous observation. There are also natural processes in which the longer something stays in State A, the more likely it is to switch to State B. Clouds are like this, on a fitfully sunny day. The longer you've been shivering in your wet swimsuit, the sooner you are likely to be able to shed your towel and put on your sun hat. But let's take tossed coins. The point of tossing coins is that each toss is supposed to be completely independent of the previous toss. This means that there is no physical reason why, having tossed 10 heads, the next toss is more likely to be Tails than after 1 Head. This is NOT true of the clouds above, where having endured 1 minute of shivering, you are more likely to have to spend the next minute shivering, than if you have already spent 10 minute shivering. A better example might be earthquakes - the longer it's been since the last one, the more likely you are to get one in the next year. So when people say "there's no law of physics that prevents 500 tosses" they are saying that there is no physical reason that makes Tails increasingly likely as the number of Heads already tossed grows. They simply mean that the tosses are independent and that the physical forces governing the toss do not change as a function of the previous results. There is no physical force that biases the coin toss more towards Tails as the number of Heads already thrown increases. That is all. And that is simply true.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
10:34 AM
10
10
34
AM
PDT
Barry,
When a significant segment of a society has succumbed to ideological closed-mindedness and question-begging multiplied by a propensity to be unreasonable, ruthless and nihilistic, should we have cause for concern?
Yes, Barry. Yes, exactly.LarTanner
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
10:23 AM
10
10
23
AM
PDT
Lizzie said,
Nothing in the Laws of Physics that prevents 500 Heads being tossed. This is an uncontentious statement.
I heartily disagree. Physics is not a study of what could possibly happen, it is about what does happen. Put another way... "The Laws of Physics" are not about what could possibly be observed. "The Laws of Physics" are about what is observed. Like all sciences, Physics is about what is statistically significant enough to be observed. Not about what is so rare that it would never be observed during the time of the existence of the universe. If you have objections to this, please realize that all the "Laws of Physics" you so adore, are, because of Quantum Mechanics, statistical observations only.JDH
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
10:04 AM
10
10
04
AM
PDT
Correction
and implicitly insinuated I was arguing all fair coins heads had more probability than any other specific sequence. I never said that, and in fact said the opposite in the original thread over a month ago in the comment section.
I meant to say less. My dyslexia.scordova
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
08:28 AM
8
08
28
AM
PDT
This really is a storm in a teacup. IMO, it’s time we just sat down together and drank the tea.
I can drink tea with you and with other ID critics, but not certain others. Where all this began was an uncharitable and wrong interpretation of an innocuous comment that should have been uncontroversial. I originally said:
We can make an alternative mathematical argument that says if coins are all heads they are sufficiently inconsistent with the Binomial Distribution for randomly tossed coins,
That is correct as it stand because I said inconsistent with Binomial Distribution, that connotes inconsistent with expectation. There might be some excuse for not reading it correctly, but it would still be a misreading to get the statement twisted the way it was. I could have said:
We can make an alternative mathematical argument that says if coins are all heads they are sufficiently inconsistent with expectation for randomly tossed coins,
But I don't know even if I said that whether that would have gotten twisted. Instead, over at TSZ eigenstate implicitly raised a strawman argument, and implicitly insinuated I was arguing all fair coins heads had more probability than any other specific sequence. I never said that, and in fact said the opposite in the original thread over a month ago in the comment section. See: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/siding-with-mathgrrl-on-a-point-and-offering-an-alternative-to-csi-v2-0/#comment-455100 Either way, he misread what I said, and attributed his misreading to my supposed sloppy thinking. I take great exception to that, further he equivocated what I meant and thus made a strawman argument. I'm not saying he's dishonest, but some critics are so bent on disagreeing, that they seem to reflexively find the least charitable interpretation or worse imagine something that wasn't said because Darwin forbid, they might actually be seen publicly agreeing with a creationist. The result of eigenstate's equivocation, he ends up making a stupid sounding claim:
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, given your qualification (“fair coin”), that is outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins,
That's the price one pays for equivocating a common sense statement on my part into some idiosyncratic abnormal rendering of what I said. The result is something that sounds absurd. If one is going to knockdown a strawman, at least knock down a strawman and not your own credibility. KeithS supports the equivocation with mostly vacuous statement to try to make a stupid sounding argument sound almost respectable:
Every specific outcome — including all heads — is consistent with the physics of fair coins.
which basically says: “every possible outcome is consistent with what is possible”. Which says nothing! The result of the equivocation is a stupid sounding attempt to knockdown a strawman, but it's not the strawman who gets knocked down, it eigenstate and then KeithS and others. I'm not saying my critics are necessarily dishonest, they do seem biased and bent on saving face at all costs and discrediting creationists at all costs even when they speak on what ought to be non-controversial matters. I disagree with Kairos Focus on one point, he said their behavior is sad, perhaps I have a twisted sense of humor, but I find it quite entertaining.scordova
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
08:05 AM
8
08
05
AM
PDT
Dr Liddle, that is a turnabout false accusation, in a context where you explicitly and in a headlined blog post denied in the teeth of actual fact, what you were harbouring at your blog, invidious comparison with Nazism, in a context where there is no legitimate comparison between millennia-old, and currently seriously artriculated legitimate principled objection to a rash policy and to behaviour that is objectively disordered, undermining of life expectancy, and now distorting of foundational cultural institutions for social stability and nazism. For shame! KF
KF, slavery is millenia-old and even biblically sanctioned. That gives it no intrinsic moral legitimacy, as I am sure you will agree. Nor, I contend, does the fact that the vilification of homesexuals is millenia old and biblically sanctioned give it any intrinsic moral legitimacy either.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
07:52 AM
7
07
52
AM
PDT
KF
I need to ask, what part of so rare in the config space that with all but certainty an outcome is reliably unobservable [on a set of considerations and a model that are actually used in grounding statistical thermodynamics and thus the statistical form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, in a famous introduction by L K Nash . . . ], on chance plus necessity, is so hard to acknowledge?
Absolutely nothing. If you have two possible explanations, and one is more probable than the other, you adopt the more probable one. Nobody disagrees with this. As I said, you can formalise it using Bayes Rule, and probably by other means as well. But that is not the same as saying that 500 Heads is inconsistent with the Laws of Physics. That statement is incorrect. 500 Heads is perfectly consistent with the Laws of Physics.
And, if there is an unwillingness to face something so blatant, do we have any reason to trust the opinions of objectors to design on any number of further subjects? KF
There is no such unwillingness KF. Nobody has said that if we saw 500 Heads we would NOT conclude, with virtual certainty (whch is as good as it gets in empirical science), that something other than fair coins, fairly tossed, had been going on.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
07:39 AM
7
07
39
AM
PDT
Dr Liddle, that is a turnabout false accusation, in a context where you explicitly and in a headlined blog post denied in the teeth of actual fact, what you were harbouring at your blog, invidious comparison with Nazism, in a context where there is no legitimate comparison between millennia-old, and currently seriously artriculated legitimate principled objection to a rash policy and to behaviour that is objectively disordered, undermining of life expectancy, and now distorting of foundational cultural institutions for social stability and nazism. For shame! KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
07:38 AM
7
07
38
AM
PDT
I need to ask, what part of so rare in the config space that with all but certainty an outcome is reliably unobservable [on a set of considerations and a model that are actually used in grounding statistical thermodynamics and thus the statistical form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, in a famous introduction by L K Nash . . . ], on chance plus necessity, is so hard to acknowledge? And, if there is an unwillingness to face something so blatant, do we have any reason to trust the opinions of objectors to design on any number of further subjects? KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
07:31 AM
7
07
31
AM
PDT
KF:
She is now seeking to defend the notion that principled objection to homosexualisation of marriage under false colour of law and its likely impacts on our civilisation — already patently deleterious — is morally equivalent to Nazism.
No. I. Am. Not. I'm saying that comparing anti-homosexuality to racism is morally equivalent to comparing materialism to the enablers of slavery and racism. The fact that your objection to anti-homosexuality is "principled" makes no difference. So is my objection to your stance. We are both entitled to our views, and at my blog we are both enabled to express them. That will not change.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
07:30 AM
7
07
30
AM
PDT
Barry:
Certain materialists commenting on this site are suffering from DDS (Darwinist Derangement Syndrome), which causes them to say things like “500 heads in a row is perfectly consistent with the chance hypothesis.”
Let me address your comment that it is "deranged" to say that "500 heads in a row is perfectly consistent with the chance hypothesis". Nothing in the Laws of Physics that prevents 500 Heads being tossed. This is an uncontentious statement. Coin tosses are independent of previous tosses, and so there is no reduced likelihood of throwing another Head after 499 tosses than after 1. But I'm sure you don't disagree with this. The issue is whether we look at it as you, as a lawyer, would, or as a physicist would. If you, as a lawyer, saw someone toss 500 heads, you would conclude that it was inconsistent with the conclusion that the person had a fair coin. You'd make a watertight case for the prosecution. And you'd be absolutely right, and no-one would disagree with you. But if a physicist came along and saw the 500 heads being tossed, she might say: But there is nothing about this sequence that is inconsistent with the Laws of Physics. This statement would also be perfectly true. Neither of you would be deranged, although in my view the subsequent argument would be, and was, because the simple truth is that: Inconsistent with the conclusion that the coin was fair is a different statement than Inconsistent with the laws of physics. 500 Heads is perfectly consistent with the laws of physics but inconsistent with the conclusion that fair coin-tossing is more likely than something else (e.g. design). And you can easily formalise that conclusion using Bayes theorem, as I demonstrated (also posted here, but I've lost track of which thread). This really is a storm in a teacup. IMO, it's time we just sat down together and drank the tea.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
07:21 AM
7
07
21
AM
PDT
If I were to start challenging 'materialist worldview,' coin-tossing certainly wouldn't be my chosen starting point. That it is for a small section of the little-'big tent' of IDism says something on its own. Is KF suggesting that his preferred ideological alternative to 'materialism' is 'designism' or 'probabilism' (given that the 'idealism' alternative of the past doesn't seem to count as an opposite anymore)? "evolutionary materialist secular humanism" Well, there are religious humanists and supporters of theistic evolution who are not 'materialists' who likewise responsibly and intelligently reject IDT qua 'theory'. There isn't one of them afaik, though they constitute the vast majority among the Abrahamic religions, that speaks at UD. So it is convenient for KF to continue with his 'culture warring' against an exaggerated opponent that could never really convince him anyway to turn away from what is more important than anything in the realm of science to him: his religious worldview. And if KF's religious worldview has *NOTHING* to do with the supposed 'Intelligent Agent' that IDT requires, then there's not much of a different diagnosis to conclude other than IDDS (probably everyone here can figure the acronym out, as Barry spells it out above).Gregory
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
07:06 AM
7
07
06
AM
PDT
F/N: I see Dr Liddle has decided to more specifically resort to ad hominems including manufactured labels: IRRATIONAL FEAR of homosexuality. (FYI I am neither being irrational nor fearful, I am pointing out serious and longstanding principled concerns, that these have to be pejoratively labelled to stereotype and dismiss speaks volumes, volumes with horrific historical echoes as I have pointed out. Your denial does not undo the well warranted relevance of lessons from history we are in the process of refusing to learn.) She is now seeking to defend the notion that principled objection to homosexualisation of marriage under false colour of law and its likely impacts on our civilisation -- already patently deleterious -- is morally equivalent to Nazism. So, we see a further reason to see why such ideologues have lost all credibility. Sad, but at this point not unexpected. Now, can we see someone willing to at least face the facts on tossing 500 coins? KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
06:59 AM
6
06
59
AM
PDT
Jerad:
Design may be a known cause but it takes an agent which you can’t just magic into existence. Where is the confirmatory evidence? The design is the evidence.
But you haven’t shown the limits of chance.
You haven't shown anything. And science can only allow so much luck.
Joe
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
Jerad:
It happens to be true but we never said it wasn’t hideously improbable.
No, it isn't true. 500 heads in a row is not perfectly consistent with any chance hypothesis.
You mean like denying known mathematical truths or well established science?
That is what you guys do.Joe
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
06:52 AM
6
06
52
AM
PDT
Certain materialists commenting on this site are suffering from DDS (Darwinist Derangement Syndrome), which causes them to say things like “500 heads in a row is perfectly consistent with the chance hypothesis.”
It happens to be true but we never said it wasn't hideously improbable.
When a significant segment of a society has succumbed to ideological closed-mindedness and question-begging multiplied by a propensity to be unreasonable, ruthless and nihilistic, should we have cause for concern?
You mean like denying known mathematical truths or well established science? I know some people like that.Jerad
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
06:38 AM
6
06
38
AM
PDT
Why then, do we see such violent opposition to inferring design on FSCO/I etc in non-toy cases? Obviously, because objectors are making or are implying the a priori stipulation (often unacknowledged, sometimes unrecognised) that it is practically certain that no designer is POSSIBLE at the point in question.
Uh huh. How about we first try and exhaust all known causes of such things like human intervention, some kind of bias in the system and chance since none of those require the assumption of an unknown agent? Design may be a known cause but it takes an agent which you can't just magic into existence. Where is the confirmatory evidence?
It is the trends that are dangerously destructive and need to be addressed, especially the enabling behaviour that refuses to see what is going on. And that starts with being in insistent denial of something that can be shown mathematically, the limits of chance and necessity in the case of even so simple a toy example as tossed coins.
But you haven't shown the limits of chance. In fact, your argument implies that a seemingly random series of Hs and Ts when interpreted as a binary code that then translates into a legible English phrase is more likely than getting all Hs or all Ts!!
The enabling behaviour and willful denial of truth are further underscored by the case of a mathematically demonstrated point on the tossing of coins that illustrates the difference between what chance and necessity can do and what choice can do.
Too bad you can't find a mathematical error in what we're saying. Oh well.
This is a sign of how far we have moved apart on the watershed now dividing our civilisation. All I will say on such is that those who start a cultural rift have themselves to blame for its consequences, and to willfully say that those who question the ill-considered twisting of a foundational social institution into what is simply indefensible are now being scapegoated and stereotyped by projection of hate in the teeth of abundant evidence that there is a serious issue of prudence much less principle at stake.
And you're not stereotyping anyone at all are you. Noooooooooo. Barry, Sal, Denyse, Donald . . . are you sanctioning this behaviour? Your names on on this blog (unlike KF's), are you willing to be associated with this?Jerad
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
06:34 AM
6
06
34
AM
PDT
For those, like Alan Fox, who can’t be bothered to read and absorb the point of KF’s post before commenting on it, let me boil it down: Certain materialists commenting on this site are suffering from DDS (Darwinist Derangement Syndrome), which causes them to say things like "500 heads in a row is perfectly consistent with the chance hypothesis." When a significant segment of a society has succumbed to ideological closed-mindedness and question-begging multiplied by a propensity to be unreasonable, ruthless and nihilistic, should we have cause for concern? Yes, history teaches us, definitely yes.Barry Arrington
June 28, 2013
June
06
Jun
28
28
2013
06:33 AM
6
06
33
AM
PDT
1 3 4 5 6

Leave a Reply