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[Off Topic] Two Things I Don’t Understand

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From time to time on this site we discuss the theodicy — how is it possible to reconcile the existence of a good God with the existence of evil in the world.  It is a difficult problem, and anyone (in either camp) who says it is not plainly hasn’t thought about it enough.  Pain.  Suffering.  Misery.  Like a cruel and irresistible tsunami, the problem of evil threatens to engulf and overwhelm our minds.  Yes, there have been many excellent efforts at theodicy, and they are often helpful, but none is completely satisfactory.  The solution to the problem of evil is one of those things we see “through a glass darkly,” and we are not conceding defeat when we admit our solutions are tentative and our understanding far from complete.   

There is another thing I don’t understand, and I was thinking about it this morning during communion.  Why, in all of the vast universe, would God even take notice of me, far less love me enough to set aside the attributes of his deity and become a man and suffer and die for me.  The very thought is absurd.  Yet there is clear and convincing evidence that he did just that.  I have no right to share in the vast riches of God’s love and grace and mercy, but, astonishingly, he freely gives them to me anyway.  I have spent decades studying apologetics, and on an intellectual basis I am satisfied of the truth of Christ’s claims for himself.  However, my faith does not rest on mere dry intellectual assent.  Sometimes I sense his presence so strongly that, like the disciples on the road to Emmaus, my heart burns within me, and at those times I experience the indescribably wonderful lightness of a spirit infused with hope.   

The title of this post is misleading.  There are a lot more than two things I don’t understand.  But I have hope and for me that makes all the difference.  I will leave you with a meditation from David B. Hart: 

[When confronted with enormous evil we must not attempt to] console ourselves with vacuous cant about the mysterious course taken by God’s goodness in this world, or to assure others that some ultimate meaning or purpose resides in so much misery. Ours is, after all, a religion of salvation; our faith is in a God who has come to rescue His creation from the absurdity of sin and the emptiness of death, and so we are permitted to hate these things with a perfect hatred. For while Christ takes the suffering of his creatures up into his own, it is not because he or they had need of suffering, but because he would not abandon his creatures to the grave. And while we know that the victory over evil and death has been won, we know also that it is a victory yet to come, and that creation therefore, as Paul says, groans in expectation of the glory that will one day be revealed. Until then, the world remains a place of struggle between light and darkness, truth and falsehood, life and death; and, in such a world, our portion is charity. As for comfort, when we seek it, I can imagine none greater than the happy knowledge that when I see the death of a child I do not see the face of God, but the face of His enemy. It is not a faith that would necessarily satisfy Ivan Karamazov, but neither is it one that his arguments can defeat: for it has set us free from optimism, and taught us hope instead. We can rejoice that we are saved not through the immanent mechanisms of history and nature, but by grace; that God will not unite all of history’s many strands in one great synthesis, but will judge much of history false and damnable; that He will not simply reveal the sublime logic of fallen nature, but will strike off the fetters in which creation languishes; and that, rather than showing us how the tears of a small girl suffering in the dark were necessary for the building of the Kingdom, He will instead raise her up and wipe away all tears from her eyes—and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, for the former things will have passed away, and He that sits upon the throne will say, “Behold, I make all things new.”

Comments
BA:
I hold that for me to let you continue in your folly as a New Age fruitcake completely unchecked would be far more unloving of me towards you than for me to falsely pretend that your views are not severely incoherent and even extremely dangerous as far as the security of your eternal soul is concerned. How loving would it be of someone to let an associate go unwarned into grave danger? Not very!
I see. And so you use ridicule and insult to bring me into the fold. Tell me, have you had a lot of success with this approach?Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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Bruce Davidian, now please answer my question in 141 towards your worldview: if I fearlessly tell the truth to you (my truth) that you are a insane New Age Fruitcake, (then) that is not morally evil or disrespectful on my part in the least??? and that is just what it is???? :) i.e. That is just my version of the truth which is just as, or more valid, than your truth??? With no moral implications whatsoever???bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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Bruce thanks for the correction, I was badly mistaken from an erroneous teaching I had been taught earlier in life. So I accept the golden rule,,, and indeed if I was acting as insanely as you are in regards to the inconsistencies in your incoherent worldview, and the extremely dangerous implications involved in that for your eternal soul, Yes Indeed!,, I would want someone to call me on it in the strongest terms possible. Thus I stand by 'my truth' that I find you insane, arrogantly so!bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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Stephen:
If each human being is “his or her own authority regarding what the truth is,” then there would be multiple subjective, particular truths, ruling out the possibility of one objective, universal truth for everyone.
Doesn't follow. There is one ultimate Truth. The fact that each of us must discover it on our own in no way negates the fact that there is one Truth. There is plenty of help, of course, but part of the problem is to discover which such source or sources to trust. God, however, made us each in His image and likeness, so each of us has within us the capacity to know the truth. It usually takes many lifetimes for a soul to be able to access that knowingness when incarnated. But it will come to all eventually, in the fullness of time. There is no rush.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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BA:
And the golden rule is: “One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.” Yet that phrase is not even in the bible. The golden rule is actually a deviation of the second commandment given by Jesus, which is: Mark 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
I beg to differ: Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Luke 6:13 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. So I repeat my question. Do you or do you not accept the Golden Rule as objective moral truth? Yes or No?Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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StephenB and Bruce Davidian, you guys may appreciate this neat little video I just found: SQuire Rushnell Good Morning America "GodWinks" - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYJRddhzFG4 Tends to put things in perspective huh?bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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Bruce
What I have said is that each of us must find the truth for ourselves, that because of the innumerable competing claimants for being the authority on truth (the Bible, the Koran, the Buddhist scriptures, the Hindu holy books, the Tao Te Ching, Mao’s Little Red Book, the writings of the “new atheists”, all the philsophers in the Western Philosophical traditions, mystics of various stripes, etc., etc.), each human being is of necessity his or her own authority regarding what that truth is.
Obviously, and as usual, you are contradicting yourself. If each human being is "his or her own authority regarding what the truth is," then there would be multiple subjective, particular truths, ruling out the possibility of one objective, universal truth for everyone. Either individuals make up their own changing and varied truths, or they apprehend the one, unchanging truth. There is no excluded middle.
But I have never said, nor do I believe, that there is “no such thing as a single, objective truth”.
Oh, but you have said that. Among other things, you claimed that there is no such thing as objective moral truth.
The problem, you see, is that your explanations generally miss something rather crucial, namely validity, as I continually explain to you, but which you continually ignore.
I didn't miss anything since I understand your misguided philosophy much better than you do. Earlier you refused to acknowledge that truth cannot be separated from morality. Now you are asserting that truth (albeit your cockamamie version of it) cannot be separated from the moral virtues of honesty and courage.StephenB
November 25, 2012
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BD, Because everyone claims to have their own source of truth, each human being is of necessity his or her own authority regarding what that truth is. That’s your argument?Mung
November 25, 2012
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Bruce Davidian pontificates: "each human being is of necessity his or her own authority regarding what that truth is." and "Well, what is the definition of honesty? Basically it is telling the truth. And courage? The willingness to do something in the face of fear. These are morally good to you if you say so, but if absolute morality doesn’t exist, which it doesn’t, then they are just what they are." So if I fearlessly tell the truth to you that you are a insane New Age Fruitcake, that is not morally evil or disrespectful on my part, that is just what it is???? :) That is my version of truth which is just as, or more valid, than your truth??? Thanks for clearing that up Bruce Davidian!bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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Stephen:
Now here you are asserting that truth cannot be separated from the moral virtues of honesty and courage, which you will, of course, promptly, predictably and confusedly claim are not moral virtues.
Well, what is the definition of honesty? Basically it is telling the truth. And courage? The willingness to do something in the face of fear. These are morally good to you if you say so, but if absolute morality doesn't exist, which it doesn't, then they are just what they are. I may be prompt and predictable in this case, but I am not confused.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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Bruce Davidian, you stated a few times something about me trespassing the 'golden rule': "it’s obvious that your own professed “objective” moral standards, including the Golden Rule, actually mean nothing to you, since you can discard them so easily when it suits you." And the golden rule is: "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." Yet that phrase is not even in the bible. The golden rule is actually a deviation of the second commandment given by Jesus, which is: Mark 12:31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." Thus you are trying to apply a standard to me that is not even in the Bible. ,,, and I maintain that although I almost certainly fail to love you as myself (what man can claim perfection in that area?), none-the-less, I hold that for me to let you continue in your folly as a New Age fruitcake completely unchecked would be far more unloving of me towards you than for me to falsely pretend that your views are not severely incoherent and even extremely dangerous as far as the security of your eternal soul is concerned. How loving would it be of someone to let an associate go unwarned into grave danger? Not very!bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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Mung, re 135: No, that is not my argument. Please read it again more carefully.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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BA: By the way, you still have not answered my question: Do you or do you not accept the Golden Rule as objective moral truth? Yes or No?Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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BA:
BD, if you truly are not upset about me pointing out that your worldview is insane, why do you go on harping about it again and again as if you were upset?
Come, come, BA---you're the one who keeps bringing it up. I just answer your questions.
OK Bruce Davidian, how do you have a commitment to truth, moral truth or otherwise, if right and wrong don’t actually exist?
I hope you're not making the truly elementary mistake of confusing two meanings of "right and wrong"---1) morally good and bad, and 2) correct and incorrect. That would be so embarrassing.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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BD, Because everyone claims to be their own source of truth, each human being is of necessity his or her own authority regarding what that truth is. That's your argument?Mung
November 25, 2012
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Stephen:
I thought that we each possessed our OWN TRUTH and that no such thing as a single, objective truth existed. It isn’t hard to reveal your inconsistencies. They abound.
See 102. What I have said is that each of us must find the truth for ourselves, that because of the innumerable competing claimants for being the authority on truth (the Bible, the Koran, the Buddhist scriptures, the Hindu holy books, the Tao Te Ching, Mao's Little Red Book, the writings of the "new atheists", all the philsophers in the Western Philosophical traditions, mystics of various stripes, etc., etc.), each human being is of necessity his or her own authority regarding what that truth is. But I have never said, nor do I believe, that there is "no such thing as a single, objective truth".
Again, you miss the irony as you always do. I explained to you ages ago, with great resistance on your part, that truth cannot be separated from morality.
How condescending, Stephen, to assume that because you explained something to me that I would then accept it as true. The problem, you see, is that your explanations generally miss something rather crucial, namely validity, as I continually explain to you, but which you continually ignore.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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Bruce:
More on feelings: Feelings are a reliable guide to truth,
Your truth, my truth, or the truth?
....but they are not sufficient by themselves. Intelligence is also required, along with an open mind and a commitment to the truth above any preconceived ideas, cultural conditioning, and the need to be right.
The question is, Can feelings mislead one about the truth or not?
Feelings, however, only work if one is honest about them—first of all to oneself and then to others. One also has to be willing to to actually confront them, which can be very difficult for many people.
Again, you miss the irony as you always do. I explained to you ages ago, with great resistance on your part, that truth cannot be separated from morality. Now here you are asserting that truth cannot be separated from the moral virtues of honesty and courage, which you will, of course, promptly, predictably and confusedly claim are not moral virtues.StephenB
November 25, 2012
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Bruce:
"You know perfectly well that what I have been saying regarding the inconsistency between BA’s words and his actions is true."
"You’re desire to trap me into an inconsistency has overcome your commitment to the truth."
Well, look at you!----alluding to THE TRUTH. I thought that we each possessed our OWN TRUTH and that no such thing as a single, objective truth existed. It isn't hard to reveal your inconsistencies. They abound.StephenB
November 25, 2012
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Along that same line, Dr. Peter Williams also has a strong defense against alleged inconsistencies in the Bible. Video: New Evidence for Eye Witness Accounts http://hcchristian.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/video-new-evidence-for-eye-witness-accounts/ Accuracy Of The Bible - Feeding 5000 - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6745194 Lecture - Dr Peter Williams - Things Which Ought To Be Better Known About The Resurrection Of Jesus - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbBVBUeHXZ4 and this: How Reliable Is the New Testament? - Dan Wallace (publicly debated Bart Ehrman 3 times) - video http://www.watermark.org/media/how-badly-did-the-early-scribes-corrupt-the-new-testament/2305/bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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as to alleged 'many inconsistencies' in the Bible, I found the following work by Timothy McGrew to a particularly effective rebuttal to that argument: Alleged Contradictions in the Gospels by Dr. Timothy McGrew - lecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJizWvoGCIg Undesigned Coincidences - Tim McGrew - article https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/detecting-authenticity-in-lack-of-design/ Tim McGrew - radio Interview http://www.brianauten.com/Apologetics/interview-tim-mcgrew.mp3 The Gospels and Acts as History by Dr. Timothy McGrew - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAPG3eECaxw Alleged Historical Errors in the Gospels (Luke & John) by Tim McGrew - lecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5kJuTkUo0w Frank Turek interviews Tim McGrew on the subject of "undesigned coincidences" in the New Testament: - very interesting apologetic!! - radio interview http://mediaserver3.afa.net/archives/CrossExamined/ft_073011.mp3 Tim McGrew on Frank Turek - Part II http://www.afa.net/Radio/show.aspx?id=2147493203&tab=audio&audio=2147510644 Undesigned Coincidences (evidence for the historicity of the Gospels) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGVLeC5HbSQ Who Wrote the Gospels? by Timothy McGrew - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldvim1yjYMbornagain77
November 25, 2012
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BD, if you truly are not upset about me pointing out that your worldview is insane, why do you go on harping about it again and again as if you were upset? You have to be willing to actually confront the fact that you are intellectually deficient and thus incapable of living consistently in your Alice and Wonderland worldview, as you claim it to be, man up about it, and go on. you also state to StephenB: "Feelings are a reliable guide to truth, but they are not sufficient by themselves. Intelligence is also required, along with an open mind and a commitment to the truth above any preconceived ideas, cultural conditioning, and the need to be right." But in post #107 you state: "My purpose was not to make you wrong, since I don’t believe that right and wrong exist, as I have stated many times." OK Bruce Davidian, how do you have a commitment to truth, moral truth or otherwise, if right and wrong don't actually exist? You don't really need StephenB to baby step you through the insanity of your position again do you?bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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Stephen: More on feelings: Feelings are a reliable guide to truth, but they are not sufficient by themselves. Intelligence is also required, along with an open mind and a commitment to the truth above any preconceived ideas, cultural conditioning, and the need to be right. Feelings, however, only work if one is honest about them---first of all to oneself and then to others. One also has to be willing to to actually confront them, which can be very difficult for many people.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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BA re: 123 I can't help it that your scripture is full of inconsistencies. So are you saying that you reject the Golden Rule? Yes or no?Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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Yeah StephenB, You ought to be pointing out the inconsistency in BA's remarks because that would be the morally right thing to do.Mung
November 25, 2012
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Bornagain:
BD, and exactly why are you so upset with what you falsely perceive to be disrespect on my part when evil does not even exist in your worldview. I mean really BD, if you can’t get over me calling the insanity of your worldview for what it truly is, New Age psychobabble to use StephenB’s term, what in blue blazes are you going to do if some atheist, who like you does not even believe in the reality of evil, decides it is his best subjective interest to kill you and your loved ones and take your property??? Will you try to use your very selective use of Christian morals to stop him from harming you?
Firstly, I am not "upset". I have merely stated a preference. Once again, you have demonstrated a singular inability to understand simple ideas. Let me lay it out for you: 1. Preference is not a statement of good or evil. This should be obvious, but since it is not, let me give you some examples: I prefer to be happy rather than depressed. I prefer to tasty food to bland food. I prefer well written novels to poorly written ones. I prefer playing tennis to playing basketball. Do these preferences make depression, bland food, poorly written novels, and playing basketball evil? Of course not. 2. Most of the decisions that people make in their daily lives are not not made on the basis of morality; they are made on the basis of preference. One doesn't choose a restaurant, or a film to go see, or what groceries to buy, or what artwork to hang on one's walls on the basis of morality. These decisions are all made on the basis of preference. 3. I would prefer that you interact with me out of respect and common courtesy. A belief that evil exists is not a requirement for having preferences. Clear?Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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Stephen:
You have no basis for saying that there is an inconsistency between BA’s standards and his behavior. According to your feelings, it may be true for you, but according to my feelings, it isn’t true for me.
Frankly, Stephen, I think you're lying. You know perfectly well that what I have been saying regarding the inconsistency between BA's words and his actions is true. You're desire to trap me into an inconsistency has overcome your commitment to the truth. In any case, I have never said that feelings are the only avenue to determine knowledge.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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BD, I wonder, do you think that Jesus was not showing respect and common courtesy when he said this? Matthew 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" or perhaps Jesus wasn't showing proper respect and courtesy for others feelings when he said this: Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. What do you think BD? Would you lecture Jesus on how he should have respected others who promoted a false religion like you are promoting a false religion??bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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Bruce: You are really slow on the uptake. Let me try to explain it to you once again using your own philosophy: You have no basis for saying that there is an inconsistency between BA's standards and his behavior. According to your feelings, it may be true for you, but according to my feelings, it isn't true for me. I have already made it clear that my feelings are better and more reliable than your feelings because I feel that this is so--and if I feel it, it is true for me--and if it is true for me, it is true. Please stop making insulting claims that you cannot defend.StephenB
November 25, 2012
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BD, and exactly why are you so upset with what you falsely perceive to be disrespect on my part when evil does not even exist in your worldview. I mean really BD, if you can't get over me calling the insanity of your worldview for what it truly is, New Age psychobabble to use StephenB's term, what in blue blazes are you going to do if some atheist, who like you does not even believe in the reality of evil, decides it is his best subjective interest to kill you and your loved ones and take your property??? Will you try to use your very selective use of Christian morals to stop him from harming you?bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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Stephen: re 118 and 119 You and Bornagain are the ones who claim that there is an absolute, objective, moral standard, and that the Golden Rule is part of it. I am merely pointing out the inconsistency between what BA professes to believe and his actions (yours too, on more than one occasion). My beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with whether you are acting consistently with the beliefs for which you have argued with such fervor on so many occasions.
That is at least the third time that you have insulted BA’s intelligence. How do you manage to reconcile that fact with your complaints about my alleged insults toward you.
In the first place, BA has repeatedly shown an amazing inability (unwillingness?) to grasp relatively simple points. In the second, it is you and he, not I, who are bound by the Golden Rule by your own (quite strongly worded) statements. Thirdly, I have warned BA twice that if he refused to deal with me with respect and common courtesy, that I would likely respond in kind.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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