Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

[Off Topic] Two Things I Don’t Understand

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From time to time on this site we discuss the theodicy — how is it possible to reconcile the existence of a good God with the existence of evil in the world.  It is a difficult problem, and anyone (in either camp) who says it is not plainly hasn’t thought about it enough.  Pain.  Suffering.  Misery.  Like a cruel and irresistible tsunami, the problem of evil threatens to engulf and overwhelm our minds.  Yes, there have been many excellent efforts at theodicy, and they are often helpful, but none is completely satisfactory.  The solution to the problem of evil is one of those things we see “through a glass darkly,” and we are not conceding defeat when we admit our solutions are tentative and our understanding far from complete.   

There is another thing I don’t understand, and I was thinking about it this morning during communion.  Why, in all of the vast universe, would God even take notice of me, far less love me enough to set aside the attributes of his deity and become a man and suffer and die for me.  The very thought is absurd.  Yet there is clear and convincing evidence that he did just that.  I have no right to share in the vast riches of God’s love and grace and mercy, but, astonishingly, he freely gives them to me anyway.  I have spent decades studying apologetics, and on an intellectual basis I am satisfied of the truth of Christ’s claims for himself.  However, my faith does not rest on mere dry intellectual assent.  Sometimes I sense his presence so strongly that, like the disciples on the road to Emmaus, my heart burns within me, and at those times I experience the indescribably wonderful lightness of a spirit infused with hope.   

The title of this post is misleading.  There are a lot more than two things I don’t understand.  But I have hope and for me that makes all the difference.  I will leave you with a meditation from David B. Hart: 

[When confronted with enormous evil we must not attempt to] console ourselves with vacuous cant about the mysterious course taken by God’s goodness in this world, or to assure others that some ultimate meaning or purpose resides in so much misery. Ours is, after all, a religion of salvation; our faith is in a God who has come to rescue His creation from the absurdity of sin and the emptiness of death, and so we are permitted to hate these things with a perfect hatred. For while Christ takes the suffering of his creatures up into his own, it is not because he or they had need of suffering, but because he would not abandon his creatures to the grave. And while we know that the victory over evil and death has been won, we know also that it is a victory yet to come, and that creation therefore, as Paul says, groans in expectation of the glory that will one day be revealed. Until then, the world remains a place of struggle between light and darkness, truth and falsehood, life and death; and, in such a world, our portion is charity. As for comfort, when we seek it, I can imagine none greater than the happy knowledge that when I see the death of a child I do not see the face of God, but the face of His enemy. It is not a faith that would necessarily satisfy Ivan Karamazov, but neither is it one that his arguments can defeat: for it has set us free from optimism, and taught us hope instead. We can rejoice that we are saved not through the immanent mechanisms of history and nature, but by grace; that God will not unite all of history’s many strands in one great synthesis, but will judge much of history false and damnable; that He will not simply reveal the sublime logic of fallen nature, but will strike off the fetters in which creation languishes; and that, rather than showing us how the tears of a small girl suffering in the dark were necessary for the building of the Kingdom, He will instead raise her up and wipe away all tears from her eyes—and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, for the former things will have passed away, and He that sits upon the throne will say, “Behold, I make all things new.”

Comments
Bruce
There is nothing there that says I should or should not refrain from pointing out to someone that he is being false to his own professed standards.
Again, you miss the point. Let me express it again in terms that, to borrow your comment to BA, "even you can understand." You are in no position to say that anyone who feels that he is being true to his principles is being false if, as Mr. Walsch says, our feelings are the standard for our truths. Try to grasp your own philosophy.StephenB
November 25, 2012
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Bruce
"My last comment, number 115, is an attempt to put the case in such stark terms that even Bornagain cannot fail to see it, although I don’t hold out a lot of hope for success…"
That is at least the third time that you have insulted BA's intelligence. How do you manage to reconcile that fact with your complaints about my alleged insults toward you.
"There is nothing there that says I should or should not refrain from pointing out to someone that he is being false to his own professed standards."
That is the funniest thing you have said all day. If there are no objective standards by which truth and falsehood can be discerned, then there is no way for you to say that anyone has been true or false about anything. You are simply making wild and insulting claims that you cannot defend. To speak your language (and that of Mr. Walsch), I feel that bornagain is being true to his principles, and you feel that he is not. But your feelings are no better than my feelings. Indeed, I say my feelings are better than your feelings, and since I feel that way, and since my feelings are the ultimate standard for my truth, then what I say is true. Indeed, I will take it one step further. By virtue of the fact that you complain about anyone's behavior for any reason, you are being inconsistent with your own principles. Since I feel that way and, as Mr. Walsch says, since my feelings are the ultimate source for my truth, then what I say about you is true.StephenB
November 25, 2012
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Bruce, I gather it slipped your mind, so I will make the point again: Neal Walsch’s God says to all of us, “your will for you is “God’s will for you . . . I have no preference in the matter . . . I do not care what you do . . .” By your standard, bornagain77 is doing God’s will by expressing his own will, which is to critique your orientation to reality in a negative way. Conversely, your behavior is inappropriate because, in criticizing bornagain’s will, you are, by your own standard, criticizing God’s will.
There are no "shoulds" in that quote. There is nothing there that says I should or should not refrain from pointing out to someone that he is being false to his own professed standards. (God, after all, doesn't care what I do, either.) This could be useful information to Bornagain if he chooses to recognize it, and therefore of service to him. As I also pointed out, if he heeds my advice to "walk his talk" it will make my own life more pleasant, and so be of service to me also. My last comment, number 115, is an attempt to put the case in such stark terms that even Bornagain cannot fail to see it, although I don't hold out a lot of hope for success...Bruce David
November 24, 2012
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Bruce, I gather it slipped your mind, so I will make the point again: Neal Walsch’s God says to all of us, “your will for you is “God’s will for you . . . I have no preference in the matter . . . I do not care what you do . . .” By your standard, bornagain77 is doing God's will by expressing his own will, which is to critique your orientation to reality in a negative way. Conversely, your behavior is inappropriate because, in criticizing bornagain's will, you are, by your own standard, criticizing God's will.StephenB
November 24, 2012
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BA re 114: Ok, BA, it's obvious that your own professed "objective" moral standards, including the Golden Rule, actually mean nothing to you, since you can discard them so easily when it suits you. So be it. It is now clear to all and sundry that not only do you act in opposition to your stated beliefs (this is known as hypocrisy), but that your professed belief in an absolute standard is just so much hot air.Bruce David
November 24, 2012
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"and that this will induce you to begin interacting with me with respect and common courtesy" But alas, if there is truly no evil, you cannot even ground the 'trivial morals' of respect and common courtesy in your worldview, so why in blue blazes do you object to me for pointing out your insanity of you appealing to what you suppose my Christian moral code ought to be towards you since you can't ground it in your cultish worldview??,,, to try to enforce your 'subjective preference', over my subjective preference for how I should act?? As StephenB pointed out, Christian ethics also demands that Christians correct heretical teachings, such as New Age garbage you are trying to teach. Why don't you prefer that Christian moral for me? Moreover, why do you think I should respect your opinion for Christianity when it is apparent you can't even grasp the fatal flaws of your own religion? 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.bornagain77
November 24, 2012
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BA:
But, once again, why in blue blazes are you appealing to a Christian ethic to defend what you can’t possibly defend in your very own worldview? That’s exactly why I consider you insane in your reasoning! You wish to call something evil that you personally find offensive but you simply have no resource to appeal to in your worldview.,,, It is much the same insanity that is found with the atheist when they try to defend morality. i.e. Much like you neo-Darwinists cannot maintain a consistent identity towards a stable, unchanging, cause for objective morality within their lives;
God, but you're thick! I am not accusing you of "evil", I am accusing you of hypocrisy. I'm "appealing to a Christian ethic" becaue it's your ethic. I'm suggesting that you, you know, walk your talk, put your money where your mouth is, put up or shut up. Why am I making this suggestion? It is not because hypocrisy is evil. I am hoping that you will realize that you are violating your own standard of right and wrong, which you profess to believe is "objective", and that this will induce you to begin interacting with me with respect and common courtesy. Do I want this because interacting with me in this way is "good"? No. It is, as I said, because that would be much more pleasant, and I prefer pleasant. But if you insist on continuing to violate your own "objective" standards of behavior, at least everyone will see that while you say you believe in objective morality, your actions betray you as a moral relativist---it's ok to do whatever you feel like; the Golden Rule be damned.Bruce David
November 24, 2012
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"If not, whatever happened to that “objective” standard, the Golden Rule?" But, once again, why in blue blazes are you appealing to a Christian ethic to defend what you can't possibly defend in your very own worldview? That's exactly why I consider you insane in your reasoning! You wish to call something evil that you personally find offensive but you simply have no resource to appeal to in your worldview.,,, It is much the same insanity that is found with the atheist when they try to defend morality. i.e. Much like you neo-Darwinists cannot maintain a consistent identity towards a stable, unchanging, cause for objective morality within their lives; The Knock-Down Argument Against Atheist Sam Harris' moral landscape argument – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL_vAH2NIPc This following short video clearly shows, in a rather graphic fashion, the ‘moral dilemma' that atheists, and subjective moralists such as Bruce Davidian, face when they try to ground objective morality; Cruel Logic – video Description; A brilliant serial killer videotapes his debates with college faculty victims. The topic of his debate with his victim: His moral right to kill them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qd1LPRJLnIbornagain77
November 24, 2012
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Stephen:
But Bruce, Bornagain77 did not violate his own standards, which, among other things, require him to warn you of your folly and to dramatize the extent to which your intellectual capacities have been compromised by new-age psychobabble.
It is quite possible to make points without using ridicule and insult. Is that how you and Bornagain wish to be treated, with ridicule and insult? If not, whatever happened to that "objective" standard, the Golden Rule?Bruce David
November 24, 2012
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But Bruce, Bornagain77 did not violate his own standards, which, among other things, require him to warn you of your folly and to dramatize the extent to which your intellectual capacities have been compromised by new-age psychobabble. On the other hand, you violate your own standards by even bringing it up. Neal Walsch's God says "your will for you is "God's will for you . . . I have no preference in the matter . . . I do not care what you do . . ." Thus, bornagain77 is doing what he wills, which by your standard, is also God's will, and he obviously wills to critique your orientation to reality in a negative way. By that same standard, your behavior is inappropriate because you are criticizing bornagain's act of following his own will.StephenB
November 24, 2012
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BA re 108
But why should your ‘preference’ matter to me if there is no such thing as evil?
You're the Christian here, not me. It would matter to you that you do not abide by your own moral standards if you believe that they are real, as you claim. If you really don't care that you are continually and flagrantly violating your own standards, then just admit that you don't really believe in them after all, and stop trying to prove that there is such a thing as objective morality!Bruce David
November 24, 2012
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"it was stated in the context of an attempt to induce you to engage in more civil discourse" But why should your 'preference' matter to me if there is no such thing as evil? Me calling you insane is just as preferable to me as you not having me call you as such, indeed more so. You simply have no standard to have over against me in your worldview and I'm not going to let you cheat and try to use my worldview as a standard to tell me why I should behave in a way that you personally would find morally preferable.bornagain77
November 24, 2012
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Bornagain:
If you truly do not object to what I said, since you have no basis for judging anything as evil in your worldview, why in blue blazes are you ‘merely noting’ what I said was ‘insulting’ to you.
My purpose was not to make you wrong, since I don't believe that right and wrong exist, as I have stated many times. Rather, it was stated in the context of an attempt to induce you to engage in more civil discourse by pointing out the inconsistency between your professed ethical system and your actions---an attempt which has failed, alas. Just to be crystal clear about this, since you have a habit of attributing motives to me that don't exist, I am not implying nor do I believe that civil discourse is "right" and insults are "wrong". I just find civil discourse to be far more pleasant than the style with which you habitually interact with me, and I prefer pleasant to unpleasant. Again, to be clear, this preference includes no moral censure, just as my preference for tasty food over bland food does not imply that bland food is somehow morally wrong.Bruce David
November 24, 2012
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Bruce Davidian states: "I did not object to your calling me insane. I merely noted that your continued insulting tone implies that you are unwilling to extend respect and common courtesy to anyone who doesn’t share your worldview." If you truly do not object to what I said, since you have no basis for judging anything as evil in your worldview, why in blue blazes are you 'merely noting' what I said was 'insulting' to you. Man you really have some work to do on getting over these illusions that evil exists! :) But then again, according to your worldview, it is not really evil that you would be under the illusion that evil really exist, it would just be preferable if you believed that it did not exist. :) note: John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.bornagain77
November 24, 2012
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Why would God use the least effective medium if the most effective medium is available? If, as Walsch says, God has already given his children the real thing in the form of feelings, why do they need Walsch’s words, which are, by his own account, mere noise?
Because, as He points out, not everyone listens to their feelings as communications from God, nor understands their true import. God uses all the means available to Him to get His message across. Read the book. He makes it very clear. And again, you are not accurate. The quote you yourself cited states that words are
merely utterances: noises that stand for feelings, thoughts, and experience
That is a very different statement than that words are "mere noise".Bruce David
November 24, 2012
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Bruce: "God does not say in Conversations with God that words are meaningless." Walsch says that God communicates with everyone, but not just with words, which as it turns out, are mere noise--not the real thing. By his account, God's main form of communication is through feeling, the medium through which he can reach everyone. "However, when He chooses to use a book as His medium of communication, words are pretty much what He must use." Why would God use the least effective medium if the most effective medium is available? If, as Walsch says, God has already given his children the real thing in the form of feelings, why do they need Walsch's words, which are, by his own account, mere noise?StephenB
November 24, 2012
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Man, it must be getting late. Number 101 is to BA, and number 102 is to Stephen.Bruce David
November 23, 2012
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If I feel that I understand that which you claim I don’t understand, then I understand it because I feel that I do. It is, after all, my truth.
I believe (nay, am certain and have repeatedly demonstrated) that morality is unavoidably relative, that it is in fact the human condition. However, I have never claimed and in fact do not believe that ultimate Truth (the actual nature of reality) is relative. Like you, I hold that there is actual Truth. We disagree on what that truth is. Your comments attempting to apply logic to that for which logic is a useless tool demonstrates that, whatever you might feel about it, you don't understand what Truth is (ultimate Truth, not that which is true for you in this moment---your feelings, beliefs, experience, etc.).
Why would you insult me by calling me ignorant for simply expressing my own truth.
If you don't know something then you are ignorant in that regard by definition. Pointing it out is not an insult; it is simply stating the case.Bruce David
November 23, 2012
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Again Bruce Davidian,,,,,, I said/say that ‘you are insane’ to which you objected, yet I hold that you have no right to object to anything I do or say in your worldview. You appealed to Christian ethics to try to say it was wrong for you have no foundation within your own worldview to appeal to. Thus clearly illustrating, for all to see, the insanity of the position you hold.
A word to the wise: to anyone reading this thread who is paying attention it will be obvious that nothing you say can be trusted---you continually attribute statements to me that I did not make, and then you attack what I did not say. You will be much better served to stick to the truth. I did not object to your calling me insane. I merely noted that your continued insulting tone implies that you are unwilling to extend respect and common courtesy to anyone who doesn't share your worldview. I never said anything remotely resembling your statement, "You appealed to Christian ethics to try to say it was wrong for you have no foundation within your own worldview to appeal to." I did point out that your unwillingness to treat me with courtesy and respect violated your own Christian ethics, but I never used the word "wrong" nor any of its synonyms. I was attempting to call attention to the inconsistency between your professed morality and your actions, hoping (vainly, obviously) that drawing attention to your obvious hypocrisy would prompt you to conduct yourself in a more civil manner. It was a subtle use of irony. I'll know better than to use subtlety to make a point with you in the future.Bruce David
November 23, 2012
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Stephen:
Neal Donald Walsch says in his book that words are, indeed, meaningless noise, but he later changes his mind.
I don't mind your silly use of logic to ridicule that to which logic does not apply. However, please get your facts straight if you are going to attack something. God does not say in Conversations with God that words are meaningless. He says that they are the least accurate of all His available means of communication, which is a very different statement. However, when He chooses to use a book as His medium of communication, words are pretty much what He must use. P.S. Apologies for not noticing it was you who made the comment and not BA.Bruce David
November 23, 2012
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Stephen:
Neal Donald Walsch says in his book that words are, indeed, meaningless noise, but he later changes his mind.
I don't mind your silly use of logic to ridicule that to which logic does not apply. However, please get your facts straight if you are going to attack something. God does not say in Conversations with God that words are meaningless. He says that they are the least accurate of all His available means of communication, which is a very different statement. However, when He chooses to use a book as His medium of communication, words are pretty much what He must use.Bruce David
November 23, 2012
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Bruce:
We are all One, BA. We are each of us also individuations of the One Existence. It is a mystery (until it isn’t).
It was I, SB, that made the comment, but I understand (oops, I mean I feel) what you mean. We are not individuals, except that we are. I get it, really I do. Bornagain is the same individual that you are, but he is also a different individual. I think I am getting the hang of this thing.
You think you understand that which you do not. The truth cannot be understood by logical thinking
If I feel that I understand that which you claim I don't understand, then I understand it because I feel that I do. It is, after all, my truth. You are claiming that I don't understand my own truth based on your limited understanding of your own truth. This is very presumptuous on your part, perhaps even a little judgmental.
Words are not meaningless, but they can only point to the Truth; they cannot accurately describe it.
Neal Donald Walsch says in his book that words are, indeed, meaningless noise, but he later changes his mind. So, his first truth is different from his second truth. I accept his first truth as representative of his views. As I learned from Mr. Walsch, and from you, my opinions are neither right nor wrong, they just are. For me, they are true. So, that should settle the matter.
When you attack the words of those who know by attempting to parody them into logical fallacies, you only display your ignorance.
Why would you insult me by calling me ignorant for simply expressing my own truth. My critique of Neal Walsch (and you) is true for me. For you, that should be enough.StephenB
November 23, 2012
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here is an interesting footnote: The Deep Connection Between Sound & Reality - Evan Grant - Allosphere - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4672092bornagain77
November 23, 2012
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Again Bruce Davidian,,,,,, I said/say that 'you are insane' to which you objected, yet I hold that you have no right to object to anything I do or say in your worldview. You appealed to Christian ethics to try to say it was wrong for you have no foundation within your own worldview to appeal to. Thus clearly illustrating, for all to see, the insanity of the position you hold. Notes: Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. The following video, in the 'life review' section of the video, shows just how important our 'idle words' are to God,,, in which every minute detail of a person's life, and the repercussions of our actions on others, are gone over according to the perfect standard by which God judges them whether to be good or evil: Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/bornagain77
November 23, 2012
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By your standards, you and bornagain77 are the same person. There is no division; we are all one, or will soon become one. Why do you carry on as if some other person insulted you? You must have insulted yourself since there is no distinction among “individuals.” Or, if that is a problem, remember that, for you, we are all God. So think of the offense as having come from God or, if you like, another part of God–or from one who will soon become God. I realize that one cannot “be” God and also be on his way to “becoming” God, but these kinds of contradictions have never bother you before, so don’t worry about them now.
We are all One, BA. We are each of us also individuations of the One Existence. It is a mystery (until it isn't). You think you understand that which you do not. The truth cannot be understood by logical thinking. Every mystic knows this. Words are not meaningless, but they can only point to the Truth; they cannot accurately describe it. When you attack the words of those who know by attempting to parody them into logical fallacies, you only display your ignorance. You can ridicule all you want, BA; it will have no effect. Those who respond to words that point towards the Truth, whether they be those of God (through Walsch), Yogananda, Rumi, or perhaps even me, will respond regardless of your ridicule. Those in your "choir" will laugh and applaud, you know, but so what?Bruce David
November 23, 2012
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I'm sure he'll pay for it in another life. Or just chalk it up to his experiencing all it means to be human in this life.Mung
November 23, 2012
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But alas Bruce Davidian, that’s just the point you had to refer to Christian ethics to make your case, there is no right or wrong, good or evil, guilt or shame, in your worldview, just the sophistry of preferable and non-preferable, thus why should you be offended by anything I do or say according to your worldview not according mine???
Do you actually think I care whether you abide by your own standards or not? I just thought you might.Bruce David
November 23, 2012
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Bruce:
"So I guess that we can to conclude that you [bornagain77] are unwilling to extend respect and common courtesy to anyone whose worldview differs from your own. How very Christian of you!
By your standards, you and bornagain77 are the same person. There is no division; we are all one, or will soon become one. Why do you carry on as if some other person insulted you? You must have insulted yourself since there is no distinction among "individuals." Or, if that is a problem, remember that, for you, we are all God. So think of the offense as having come from God or, if you like, another part of God--or from one who will soon become God. I realize that one cannot "be" God and also be on his way to "becoming" God, but these kinds of contradictions have never bother you before, so don't worry about them now. In any case, you are getting too hung up on BA's words, since your guru Neal Walsch has stated that they don't mean anything anyway:
"Words are really the least effective communicator . . . merely utterances: noises that stand for feelings, thoughts, and experience . . . . They are not Truth. They are not the real thing."
But wait! Hold on! Walsch's teachings, which are made of words, must also be meaningless noises. Why, then, would anyone believe them. More to the point, why would anyone accept God's "revelation to Walsch, which was also communicated through---words! But wait! That same God who told Walsch that words are mere noises, is also reputed to have told him that words are "expressed thoughts" that "send forth creative energy in the universe" and, that creation operates through, "thought, word, and action." So much for words as mere noises. But wait! Words can be both meaningful expression of created power and meaningless noises at the same time. We need not be constrained by that infernal and pesky law of non contradiction. Why? Because Walsch says that we must "abandon our philosophy of contradictions" so that we can all become one.StephenB
November 23, 2012
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"How very Christian of you!" But alas Bruce Davidian, that's just the point you had to refer to Christian ethics to make your case, there is no right or wrong, good or evil, guilt or shame, in your worldview, just the sophistry of preferable and non-preferable, thus why should you be offended by anything I do or say according to your worldview not according mine??? Tell me again how you don't believe evil exists: http://www.holocaustpictures.org/bornagain77
November 23, 2012
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Bornagain:
Okie Dokie Bruce Davidian, you got a deal, you go ahead and continue to say I’m ‘not very smart’ and I will continue to say you are insane!
So I guess that we can to conclude that you are unwilling to extend respect and common courtesy to anyone whose worldview differs from your own. How very Christian of you!Bruce David
November 23, 2012
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01:02 PM
1
01
02
PM
PDT
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