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[Off Topic] Two Things I Don’t Understand

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From time to time on this site we discuss the theodicy — how is it possible to reconcile the existence of a good God with the existence of evil in the world.  It is a difficult problem, and anyone (in either camp) who says it is not plainly hasn’t thought about it enough.  Pain.  Suffering.  Misery.  Like a cruel and irresistible tsunami, the problem of evil threatens to engulf and overwhelm our minds.  Yes, there have been many excellent efforts at theodicy, and they are often helpful, but none is completely satisfactory.  The solution to the problem of evil is one of those things we see “through a glass darkly,” and we are not conceding defeat when we admit our solutions are tentative and our understanding far from complete.   

There is another thing I don’t understand, and I was thinking about it this morning during communion.  Why, in all of the vast universe, would God even take notice of me, far less love me enough to set aside the attributes of his deity and become a man and suffer and die for me.  The very thought is absurd.  Yet there is clear and convincing evidence that he did just that.  I have no right to share in the vast riches of God’s love and grace and mercy, but, astonishingly, he freely gives them to me anyway.  I have spent decades studying apologetics, and on an intellectual basis I am satisfied of the truth of Christ’s claims for himself.  However, my faith does not rest on mere dry intellectual assent.  Sometimes I sense his presence so strongly that, like the disciples on the road to Emmaus, my heart burns within me, and at those times I experience the indescribably wonderful lightness of a spirit infused with hope.   

The title of this post is misleading.  There are a lot more than two things I don’t understand.  But I have hope and for me that makes all the difference.  I will leave you with a meditation from David B. Hart: 

[When confronted with enormous evil we must not attempt to] console ourselves with vacuous cant about the mysterious course taken by God’s goodness in this world, or to assure others that some ultimate meaning or purpose resides in so much misery. Ours is, after all, a religion of salvation; our faith is in a God who has come to rescue His creation from the absurdity of sin and the emptiness of death, and so we are permitted to hate these things with a perfect hatred. For while Christ takes the suffering of his creatures up into his own, it is not because he or they had need of suffering, but because he would not abandon his creatures to the grave. And while we know that the victory over evil and death has been won, we know also that it is a victory yet to come, and that creation therefore, as Paul says, groans in expectation of the glory that will one day be revealed. Until then, the world remains a place of struggle between light and darkness, truth and falsehood, life and death; and, in such a world, our portion is charity. As for comfort, when we seek it, I can imagine none greater than the happy knowledge that when I see the death of a child I do not see the face of God, but the face of His enemy. It is not a faith that would necessarily satisfy Ivan Karamazov, but neither is it one that his arguments can defeat: for it has set us free from optimism, and taught us hope instead. We can rejoice that we are saved not through the immanent mechanisms of history and nature, but by grace; that God will not unite all of history’s many strands in one great synthesis, but will judge much of history false and damnable; that He will not simply reveal the sublime logic of fallen nature, but will strike off the fetters in which creation languishes; and that, rather than showing us how the tears of a small girl suffering in the dark were necessary for the building of the Kingdom, He will instead raise her up and wipe away all tears from her eyes—and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, for the former things will have passed away, and He that sits upon the throne will say, “Behold, I make all things new.”

Comments
Bornagain:
BD, I’ve been kind of thinking on the incompatibility of your reincarnation belief contrasted to your denial of evil belief.,, If lack of perfection (not good, and thus evil in some sense) does not exist in reality, what in blue blazes are you continuously reincarnating towards??? You simply have no way to demarcate your progress if you deny the reality of all evil. ,,, Moreover, logically, there can only be one infinitely powerful being,,,
Your argument, like so many I have encountered in this blog, confuses preference for and against with moral good and evil. I prefer having enough money to meet my needs over not having enough. Does this make having insufficient money evil in my eyes? Of course not. When I deny the absolute existence of evil, I am speaking strictly in the moral sense. I do not deny the reality of desire for one thing or one state over another thing or state. That isn't morality, it is simply preference. Preference can be quite strong and passionate, but it is not equivalent to moral judgment.Bruce David
November 21, 2012
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And you wonder why you failed to get taken seriously??
On the contrary, I get taken seriously by quite a few people. But I don't wonder why I don't get taken seriously by you or Mung or Joe. I know why---your minds are closed up tighter than drums.Bruce David
November 21, 2012
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BD, I've been kind of thinking on the incompatibility of your reincarnation belief contrasted to your denial of evil belief.,, If lack of perfection (not good, and thus evil in some sense) does not exist in reality, what in blue blazes are you continuously reincarnating towards??? You simply have no way to demarcate your progress if you deny the reality of all evil. ,,, Moreover, logically, there can only be one infinitely powerful being,,, God Is Not Dead Yet – William Lane Craig – Page 4 The ontological argument. Anselm’s famous argument has been reformulated and defended by Alvin Plantinga, Robert Maydole, Brian Leftow, and others. God, Anselm observes, is by definition the greatest being conceivable. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God. Thus, God is the greatest conceivable being, a maximally great being. So what would such a being be like? He would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, and he would exist in every logically possible world. But then we can argue: 1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists. 2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world. 3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world. 4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world. 5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world. 6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists. 7. Therefore, God exists. Now it might be a surprise to learn that steps 2–7 of this argument are relatively uncontroversial. Most philosophers would agree that if God’s existence is even possible, then he must exist. So the whole question is: Is God’s existence possible? The atheist has to maintain that it’s impossible that God exists. He has to say that the concept of God is incoherent, like the concept of a married bachelor or a round square. But the problem is that the concept of God just doesn’t appear to be incoherent in that way. The idea of a being which is all-powerful, all knowing, and all-good in every possible world seems perfectly coherent. And so long as God’s existence is even possible, it follows that God must exist. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/july/13.22.html?start=4 thus it follows that only one human person, if he were to achieve spiritual perfection, would ever truly attain 'infinite perfection' in the reincarnative sense since there can rationally only be one infinitely perfect being!!!,,, notes: As weird as it may sound, this following video refines the Ontological argument into a proof that, because of the characteristic of ‘maximally great love’, Almighty God must exist in more than one person: The Ontological Argument for the Triune God of Christianity - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGVYXog8NUg Verse and music: Psalm 53:2-3 God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Evanescence - Lost in Paradise (Lyric Video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rnxlW5TrBsbornagain77
November 21, 2012
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“There are innumerable cases of past lives recalled through hypnosis,”
heck, i have billions of past lives alone. In one, I was a snail. I was very, very confused, thinking I was supposed be experiencing all aspects of what it means to be human. But then one day I ended up on a plate in a fancy restaurant, and then I understood everything. WACK JOB! RUN! How many times did Jesus have to be re-incarnated before he got it right?Mung
November 21, 2012
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"There are innumerable cases of past lives recalled through hypnosis," Really???,,, I give very credible evidence from best physics we have,, which is amazingly in line with what Judeo-Christian metaphysics holds as true,,, Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US ,,,and you give evidence from a pseudoscience that is infamous for its abuse by charlatans?,,, And you wonder why you failed to get taken seriously??bornagain77
November 21, 2012
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Bornagain:
Claiming solid evidence for reincarnation when you have none is not establishing a solid empirical basis for reincarnation, (I certainly don’t consider personal interpretations of NDE’s taken from predominantly Judeo-Christian cultures to be solid evidence for your case)
I used the term "abundant", not "solid". The trouble with "solid" is that it is more or less synonymous with "convincing", and convincing, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. The evidence is solid to me, but it will never be to you, since you have already rejected the idea. I have no idea what you mean by the term "empirical" in this context. You certainly can't perform controlled experiments, any more than one can perform controlled experiments to prove the authenticity of Biblical accounts of Jesus' life. But the evidence is abundant, as in there is lots of it. There are innumerable cases of past lives recalled through hypnosis, as well as many recalled, particularly in children, without benefit of that technique. Dr. Ian Stevenson has documented over 2,000 such cases, and examines 20 of the most compelling ones (ie., those for which there is independent corroboration) in Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation. More such cases are documented in Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect by the same author. There are also Michael Newton's two books detailing case studies of over a hundred of his clients who he regressed into past lives and then through their death into their experiences between lives. What is compelling about Newton's cases is the consistency with which that realm is described by his clients, none of whom knew each other nor had any knowledge of what the others had reported. His clients consistently reported that they incarnate many times, and described the process of incarnation in some detail (which agreed with each other). I just outline some of the evidence. There is much more.Bruce David
November 21, 2012
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Eric, Those are all interesting thoughts. I have always thought that if God were to intervene too much, then people would refrain from evil, not because they want to, but because they merely fear punishment. If God's goal is to have us become good out of a genuine desire for goodness, then we have to have the space to act good or evil without a certain knowledge of divine retribution. We cannot flourish and become truly good if we are always feeling coerced into being good. Even the threat of punishment can taint a good desire. It's like how sometimes you engage in an activity as a hobby, but if someone paid you to do it, it would quickly become drudgery and a chore. God wants our goodness to be a hobby rather than a chore, if that makes any sense.Collin
November 21, 2012
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Good thoughts, Collin. Don't we have to treat two categories differently? Namely, we have (at least) the following categories, which are sometimes too quickly lumped together as "the problem of evil": 1. Pain, suffering, old age, sickness, natural disasters, the general heartaches of life. 2. Real evil, in the sense of one sentient being purposely and malevolently harming another, engaging in cruelty, etc. To be sure, materialists often argue against God's existence on the basis of either or both. You rightly point out that such arguments are nonsensical and self-defeating, so I won't belabor that further. Yet for faith traditions, it seems there might still be some value in distinguishing between the two for the following reason: We can reconcile the first kind of "evil" (pain, suffering, the general challenges of life) with a benevolent God who wants us to experience things and learn and grow. In other words, even if God is not directly causing these experiences, He has still set up a system which gives us ample opportunity to experience such things. I think there is good reason to believe that such experiences are ultimately beneficial and can serve to bring us closer to God. So in that sense, a "good" God could still be fully and quite closely involved with these experiences and not necessarily run afoul of our sensibilities that God should be "good." Indeed, God could be viewed as even wanting us to go through these tough times for our own good. In these cases we are perhaps like the child who -- without a larger and more long-term perspective -- cries out that his parents are "mean" for making him do his homework, do the dishes, clean the house, get a flu shot from the doctor, or even suffer on the dentist's chair. The second category -- real evil -- is perhaps harder. One might very well conclude that surely God doesn't really want people to suffer through pure evil. Wars, holocausts, gang violence, etc. Surely God Himself sorrows to see such things (as scripture suggests). Surely God would step in and prevent at least these atrocities, we might be forgiven for thinking. So is the second category of evil really a different situation, or is it just a more extreme case of the first category? If the second category is somewhat different (as I've defined it, it includes those events intentionally caused by another sentient being), is there another principle at work that would allow us to reconcile the existence of this "real evil" with God (and God's goodness)? Specifically, is there a limit on God's power (i.e., he cannot prevent evil)? Is there another principle at work (perhaps, as suggested in some scriptures, he lets evil flourish to more fully justify the righteous and punish the sinner)? Or perhaps having granted us a certain measure of free will as sentient beings, is God then obliged to honor that free will to some extent, even if it means we harm one another? Does all this "evil" not really matter in the larger perspective, because it is all temporary anyway and eventually those who trust God will end up in a place in which "there are no more tears"? Some combination of these? Anyway, I think there are some very valuable and interesting questions here about the "problem of evil." I agree with you that it is perfectly possible to reconcile God's existence and the existence of evil (indeed, that is the only way). I just want to make sure we are distinguishing the two categories and perhaps throw out some musings.Eric Anderson
November 21, 2012
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Barry, I think that there are 2 distinct problems of evil. 1. Evil exists, therefore God can't exist. (this is not really a problem because if evil exists, then God MUST exist. Otherwise, evil is merely "not preferrable.") 2. God does exist, but why does He permit evil? In my faith tradition this is answered by conceding that God is not strictly omnipotent because true omnipotence is not possible. God cannot create an object so heavy that He cannot lift it. God cannot be dishonest or malicious. God cannot violate our free will and justly punish us. etc. One thing that my faith tradition teaches that I haven't yet seen elsewhere in quite the same way, is that God must permit us to experience evil, even senseless evil, in order for us to truly understand the difference between good and evil. Only by experiencing pain, frustration, futility, and despair, can we truly appreciate the good. God literally does not have the power to "implant' this knowledge inside of us. We must go through it ourselves if we are to become what God wants us to be: wise.Collin
November 21, 2012
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Here is a interesting twist on Near Death research: Raymond Moody on Shared Death Experiences- video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjYjsh8i0wbornagain77
November 21, 2012
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Claiming solid evidence for reincarnation when you have none is not establishing a solid empirical basis for reincarnation, (I certainly don't consider personal interpretations of NDE's taken from predominantly Judeo-Christian cultures to be solid evidence for your case), and denying the reality of evil, as you did here,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/off-topic-two-things-i-dont-understand/#comment-439554 ,,,is certainly not dealing with the problem of evil. ,,, Moreover, as far as physics is concerned, and what it would actually take for you to provide a solid empirical basis for your beliefs, the permanence/conservation of quantum information, and the finding of two very different types of eternity within physical reality (General and Special relativity),,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/off-topic-two-things-i-dont-understand/#comment-439591 ,,,is certainly not conducive towards you ever providing a plausible empirical basis towards your belief in reincarnation as far as physical reality itself is concerned. ,,, Here are a few notes as to what I would consider establishing a credible empirical basis in physics towards a primary religious/metaphysical claim: Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_USbornagain77
November 21, 2012
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Claiming solid evidence for reincarnation when you have none is not establishing a solid empirical basis for reincarnation, (I certainly don't consider personal interpretations of NDE's taken from predominantly Judeo-Christian cultures to be solid evidence for your case), and denying the reality of evil, as you did here,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/off-topic-two-things-i-dont-understand/#comment-439554 ,,,is certainly not dealing with the problem of evil. ,,, Moreover, as far as physics is concerned, and what it would actually take for you to provide a solid empirical basis for your beliefs, the permanence/conservation of quantum information, and the finding of two very different types of eternity within physical reality (General and Special relativity),,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/off-topic-two-things-i-dont-understand/#comment-439591 ,,,is certainly not conducive towards you ever providing a coherent empirical basis towards your belief as far as physical reality itself is concerned.bornagain77
November 21, 2012
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Bornagain:
Well BD you have managed once again to twist things around in your fertile imagination...
Thanks for the compliment.
But one thing I am curious about is why, since you apparently believe these many wonderful heavenly accounts coming from Judeo-Christian cultures are true, just why in blue blazes would you prefer a reincarnation scenario to be true where you would be yanked out of that heavenly dimension to face these trials on this earth all over again, until finally, maybe, perhaps after a billion lifetimes, you manage to achieve perfection, nirvana, or whatever?
People don't get "yanked out of that heavenly dimension", they agree to come here for the growth that can be had here on earth. Very advanced souls sometimes return to earth in order to help the rest of us along as well. No soul is ever forced to do anything against his or her will. This includes you, by the way. You also agreed to come here, and I doubt that it is your first time, either. And for most souls, the number of earthly lifetimes required until there is no more to be gained by coming here numbers in the hundreds, not the billions. If you really want to know the answer to that question, I can recommend two excellent sources: Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch, and Journey of Souls by Michael Newton.
It is beyond me how someone would, without proper foundation of evidence, want to reincarnate over and over and over again.
There is abundant evidence for the truth of reincarnation. Some people simply choose to ignore it. Also, to come full circle, a belief in reincarnation is the only way that I can make sense of the "problem of evil"---how could an infinitely loving God create a world in which so much suffering happens to so many innocent people. See 8 and 32.Bruce David
November 20, 2012
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Well BD you have managed once again to twist things around in your fertile imagination until, somehow, in contrast to much evidence that is readily available, they fit ever so loosely. I shake my head in disbelief at such willful self deception. So be it. I'll press you no further on your many inconsistencies for it is a waste of time. You, much like neo-Darwinists, want to believe what you want to believe no matter what evidence presented to you says to the contrary! But one thing I am curious about is why, since you apparently believe these many wonderful heavenly accounts coming from Judeo-Christian cultures are true, just why in blue blazes would you prefer a reincarnation scenario to be true where you would be yanked out of that heavenly dimension to face these trials on this earth all over again, until finally, maybe, perhaps after a billion lifetimes, you manage to achieve perfection, nirvana, or whatever? Frankly, this world, for all the beauty God has endowed within it and around it, still sorely tries men souls with the evil present in it. Just look at Israel and Gaza today!, not to mention each of our personal trials day by dat (I know you deny evil exists, but anyways,,). I'm very, very, happy to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a unimaginably wonderful paradise awaits in the higher heavenly dimension, and I am extremely grateful to Jesus for making a way for me, and anyone, to inherit that paradise. It is beyond me how someone would, without proper foundation of evidence, want to reincarnate over and over and over again.,,, Perhaps this saying best sums up my thoughts on the reincarnation scenario: "Insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results! :)bornagain77
November 20, 2012
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Bornagain: Oh yeah, and the minority of referred to---conservative Christians---for the most part, although they believe in Hell, don't believe that they are going there, because they have accepted Jesus as their savior and thus will be headed for Heaven. So they don't have a fear of Hell either, unlike the Eastern populations. This is great---it all fits perfectly!Bruce David
November 20, 2012
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Bornagain: In fact, I think we've just hit on the real reason for the preponderance of unpleasant NDE experiences in Eastern countries and the lack of same in this country. In the US and Europe, with the exception of a minority---mostly conservative Christians---people do not believe in the existence of Hell, whereas this is not true in the East. It is this belief in Hell that exists in the consciousness of Eastern people that prevents them from experiencing the more accurate version of the between life environment that is generally encountered in western NDEs. Thanks for allowing me to clear this up!Bruce David
November 20, 2012
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MY “claim’, the one you always refuse to deal with honestly, for over a year that I know of, has consistently been that the NDE’s from cultures which harbor your preferred reincarnation religion have a overwhelming preponderance of negative, hellish, NDE’s (even your one example you gave today was found to be tarnished by British influences in childhood!). This is a cold hard brute fact BD. Like I said before deny it if you must if that is what you are compelled to do, but I certainly do not consider you sane in your reasoning for doing so.
But their ideas of reincarnation are embedded within religious systems to which I don't subscribe. I am not a Buddhist, nor a Hindu, nor a Muslim, nor a Taoist, nor any other religion. They all believe in some version of Hell, as do you. I do not. Your comments are therefore irrelevant to me, and to most of the people I know in this country who believe in reincarnation.Bruce David
November 20, 2012
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semi OT: Dr. Eben Alexander has a new article in The Daily Beast: The Science of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander - Nov. 18, 2012 Can consciousness exist when the body fails? One neurosurgeon says he has seen it firsthand—and takes on critics who vehemently disagree. Excerpt: Many scientists who study consciousness would agree with me that, in fact, the hard problem of consciousness is probably the one question facing modern science that is arguably forever beyond our knowing, at least in terms of a physicalist model of how the brain might create consciousness. In fact, they would agree that the problem is so profound that we don’t even know how to phrase a scientific question addressing it. But if we must decide which produces which, modern physics is pushing us in precisely the opposite direction, suggesting that it is consciousness that is primary and matter secondary. This may sound absurd to some, but it is really no less absurd than the facts—now solidly established by quantum mechanics—of how we see the world around us right now. Every moment of every day, we completely personalize the data coming in at us from the physical world, but we do it far too quickly and automatically to be aware that we are doing so. Physicists discovered just how completely consciousness is wedded to the physical environment at the beginning of the 20th century, when the fathers of quantum mechanics (physicists such as Erwin Schrödinger, Werner Heisenberg, Max Planck, and Albert Einstein) established that units of light, called photons, can appear either as waves or as particles, depending on how we choose to measure them. The implications of this seemingly minor curiosity are in fact enormous, for they demonstrate that at a subatomic level, perception itself (our inner consciousness) is so wedded to the world that our consciousness of a physical event—say, a moving photon—actually affects that event. The very nonlocal features of consciousness, so well supported in Irreducible Mind and in Pim van Lommel’s wonderful book Consciousness Beyond Life, are the resounding evidence that consciousness itself is a quantum phenomenon. Refinement in our understanding of this mystery proceeds even today, as the 2012 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded to Serge Haroche and David J. Wineland for their innovative work in isolating the “collapse of the wave function,” or the exact process by which the conscious mind of the observer paints subatomic reality (hint: Einstein would still be frustrated!). Totally objective observation remains a simple impossibility. And while in our ordinary earthly life we miss this fact completely, it becomes much more apparent in near-death experiences, when the body and brain cease to mediate our encounter with the larger reality and we encounter it directly. Make no mistake: consciousness is a total mystery. As total a mystery now as it was 10, or 100, or 1,000 years ago. We simply do not know what it is. But consciousness is so familiar to all of us, so central to our identities, that we have learned to overlook this most obvious of facts. It is a deep mistake to do so. Far from being a shadowy epiphenomenon or “ghost in the machine,” as the philosopher Gilbert Ryle famously called it, consciousness is and always has been our primary link to the larger universe. My seven-day odyssey beyond my physical body and brain convinced me that when the filter of the brain is removed, we see the universe clearly for the first time. And the multidimensional universe revealed by this trans-physical vision is not a cold, dead one, but alive with the force that, as the poet Dante wrote some 600 years ago, “moves the sun and other stars.” http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/11/18/the-science-of-heaven.html here was his first article a few weeks ago: Heaven Is Real: A Doctor’s Experience With the Afterlife - Dr. Eben Alexander - Oct 8, 2012 Excerpt: One of the few places I didn’t have trouble getting my story across was a place I’d seen fairly little of before my experience: church. The first time I entered a church after my coma, I saw everything with fresh eyes. The colors of the stained-glass windows recalled the luminous beauty of the landscapes I’d seen in the world above. The deep bass notes of the organ reminded me of how thoughts and emotions in that world are like waves that move through you. And, most important, a painting of Jesus breaking bread with his disciples evoked the message that lay at the very heart of my journey: that we are loved and accepted unconditionally by a God even more grand and unfathomably glorious than the one I’d learned of as a child in Sunday school. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.htmlbornagain77
November 20, 2012
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I never claimed what you think I claimed BD, thus why should I answer a straw man questions that you've erected???? MY "claim', the one you always refuse to deal with honestly, for over a year that I know of, has consistently been that the NDE's from cultures which harbor your preferred reincarnation religion have a overwhelming preponderance of negative, hellish, NDE's (even your one example you gave today was found to be tarnished by British influences in childhood!). This is a cold hard brute fact BD. Like I said before deny it if you must if that is what you are compelled to do, but I certainly do not consider you sane in your reasoning for doing so.bornagain77
November 20, 2012
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Bornagain: re 38 Nothing in your comment addresses the questions I asked and the points I made in 36.Bruce David
November 20, 2012
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Mung:
I am near death every minute of every day and I’ve never had a NDE. What gives?
Not near enough, evidently.Bruce David
November 20, 2012
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BD, take very close look again at the best studies we have for pantheistic cultures: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/off-topic-two-things-i-dont-understand/#comment-439542 These are cold hard brute facts BD, Eastern culture NDE's are overwhelming and consistently horrific in their description!. Deny the facts if you must but don't expect me to consider you sane in your reasoning if you do! As for western cultures having negative (hellish) NDE's, no theologian in Christianity that I know of has ever claimed that all people in Christian cultures go to heaven, in fact the breakdown is as such for NDE's in Judeo-Christian cultures: THE FOUR TYPES OF NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES 1) Initial Experience (sometimes referred to as the "non-experience") Involves elements such as a loving nothingness, the living dark, a friendly voice, or a brief out-of-body experience; perhaps a visitation of some kind. Usually experienced by those who seem to need the least amount of evidence for proof of survival, or who need the least amount of shakeup in their lives at that point in time. Often, this become a "seed" experience or an introduction to other ways of perceiving and recognizing reality. Incident rate: 76% with child experiencers; 20% with adult experiencers 2) Unpleasant and/or Hell-like Experience - Encounter with a threatening void or stark limbo or a hellish purgatory, or scenes of a startling and unexpected indifference, even "hauntings" from one's own past. Usually experienced by those who seem to have deeply suppressed or repressed guilts, fears, and angers, and/or those who expect some kind of punishment, judgement, or discomfort after death. Incident rate: 3% with child experiencers; 15% with adult experiencers 3) Pleasant and/or Heaven-like Experience - Heaven-like scenarios of loving family reunions with those who have died previously, reassuring religious figures or light beings, validation that life counts, affirmative and inspiring dialogue. Usually experienced by those who most need to know how loved they are and how important life is and how every effort has a purpose in the overall scheme of things. Incident rate: 19% with child experiencers; 47% with adult experiencers 4) Transcendent Experience - Exposure to otherworldly dimensions and scenes beyond the individual's frame of reference; sometimes includes revelations of greater truths. Seldom personal in content. Usually experienced by those who are ready for a "mind stretching" challenge and/or individuals who are more apt to utilize (to whatever degree) the truths that are revealed to them. Incident rate: 2% with child experiencers; 18% with adult experiencers http://www.theglobalintelligencer.com/aug2007/fringe I remember once BD that you tried to deny the validity of NDE's when you were pressed on this matter, just so to try to protect your belief in reincarnation (being that the negative NDE's are so overwhelmingly consistent in cultures that believe in reincarnation), thus I think this following clip is fairly strong to prevent you from taking that route again: Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.htmlbornagain77
November 20, 2012
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I am near death every minute of every day and I've never had a NDE. What gives?Mung
November 20, 2012
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Bornagain: re 33 & 34
Judeo-Christianity tells us that when we die that we will enter either one enternity of bliss or another enternity of torment.
Then how come the NDEs of people in the West are almost universally experiences of unconditional love and acceptance, regardless of belief. Shouldn't the atheists, the Buddhists, the Hindus, the New Agers, and others living here who are not Christians be experiencing Hell when they die? What gives? Your claim is that people living in a "pantheistic" culture (a serious misnomer, by the way) will experience unpleasant NDEs regardless of their beliefs, and that people living in a "Judeo-Christian" culture will experience the opposite, again, irregardless of their actual beliefs. You then claim that this proves that "pantheistic" religion is wrong and what? Judaism and Christianity are right? All of them? All versions of Christianity from the Missouri Synod and Southern Baptists to the Evangelicals to Catholicism to Mormonism to liberal Christianity? And Judaism too? Does this mean we all get to go to Heaven just by virtue of living in this culture, no matter what we believe? And you simply ignore any other possible explanations for the effect you cite, like maybe beliefs regarding the nature of the afterlife are so strong in most people in many Eastern cultures that it affects what they experience in an NDE (unless it doesn't, of course). The idea that the culture you live in determines what you will experience in an NDE regardless of what you actually believe or the strength of those beliefs is frankly ridiculous. You also have no explanations for the exceptions to your rule---the people in Eastern cultures who experience a blissful NDE and the occasional people in Western cultures who experience a frightening NDE. Frankly, I find this to be a truly stupid argument---so obviously flawed that one despairs of being able to respond with anything other than "You're kidding, right?"Bruce David
November 20, 2012
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OT: For King & Country "The Proof Of Your Love" - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr9YVD05x8Mbornagain77
November 20, 2012
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HMM BD, seems your lone example could possibly have been contaminated with Judeo-Christian influences in her upbringing: ,,Because of her (Anita Moorjani's) background and British education,,, http://www.icandoit.net/newyork2012/speaker_info.php?author_id=709bornagain77
November 20, 2012
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BD: "Hellish NDEs experienced by people in other cultures are irrelevant to that question(the problem of evil)." Actually I would say they are directly relevant since hell is quite literally the embodiment of all evil itself,,,, but since you know that this is not going to end well for you(seeing as you have been through this many times before) I can see why you would want to deny that obvious fact.,,, As to your citation of Hindus and Buddhist who have grown up in Judeo-Christian cultures,,, UMMMM BD they grew up in Judeo-Christian cultures,,,, as to your lone example of a very young woman who had a NDE, I too have found anomalous examples of young people having positive NDE's in foreign cultures, and chalk that anamolous evidence up to 'age of accountability' for the young people (I have a example of a young muslim man that did not conform to the consistent pattern),,, but the main elephant in the living room point that you ignore time and again is that the overwhelming preponderance of foreign pantheistic culture NDE's are horrifying. This is certainly no small concern and for you to pretend you are being rational in your denial of this overwhelming trend in evidence is ludicrous.bornagain77
November 20, 2012
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Bornagain:
Seeing that all pantheistic cultures studied that believe in reincarnation, that we have large scale NDE studies of, have extremely negative, horrific, even hellish, NDE’s, with a stark absence of the extremely positive, pleasant, heavenly, characteristics noted in very many Judeo-Christian NDE’s, I should think that should give you a very strong clue that “the problem of evil does not magically disappear when one adopts the point of view that we incarnate many times on earth,”. Perhaps you feel denying this consistent evidence for hellish NDE’s in pantheistic cultures, and stating your opinion over and over again, that evil does not really exist, All is good, All is god, somehow makes your opinion true, myself I call such disregard of the consistent facts presented to us from the best studies we have, denialism of reality.
You have missed the point completely. The problem of evil is the question of how a good God could allow suffering of innocent people to exist here on earth. Hellish NDEs experienced by people in other cultures are irrelevant to that question. A belief in reincarnation makes that understandable---we each live many lives and have all kinds of different experiences, but all of them are temporary, all of them are in fact chosen by us for the potential for growth inherent in them, and none of them can harm our essential selves, which are immortal. Furthermore, the effect you cite is far from uniform. There are innumerable cases of Buddhists, Hindus, and atheists living in the US and Europe who have had NDEs in which they experienced unconditional love and acceptance. Furthermore, there are cases of people raised in the East in a religion that includes belief in reincarnation who have had similar experiences. One case in point is that of Anita Moorjani, a woman of Indian descent, living in Hong Kong, who was raised in the Hindu tradition. She was in the hospital, dying of cancer, having been given no more than 36 hours to live, when she had a remarkable NDE from which she returned healed in her soul. Her body in short order caught up with the state of her soul, healing itself completely of the cancer, to her doctors' astonishment. You can read her story here: anitamoorjani.com.Bruce David
November 20, 2012
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Mung:
Free to choose what? You think you get to make choices when you’re dead?
You're never dead---you only inhabit different environments depending on whether or not you happen to be occupying a physical body. And you are always at choice. Always.Bruce David
November 20, 2012
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Joe: 'I tried to watch the video but it didn’t make any sense.' Hmm, I just, serendipitously, found the video as I was writing my response to you, but from what I've seen of it so far, although the video is a bit on the feminine, language of the heart, side, I find the video to be fairly direct and to the point of exactly what is under discussion.bornagain77
November 20, 2012
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