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On “Specified Complexity,” Orgel and Dembski

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Bill Dembski often uses the term “specified complexity” to denote a characteristic of patterns that are best explained by the act of an intelligent designer. He defines the term as follows:

What is specified complexity? An object, event, or structure exhibits specified complexity if it is both complex (i.e., one of many live possibilities) and specified (i.e., displays an independently given pattern). A long sequence of randomly strewn Scrabble pieces is complex without being specified. A short sequence spelling the word “the” is specified without being complex. A sequence corresponding to a Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified.

William A. Dembski, No Free Lunch: Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Intelligence (Lanham: Rowman & Littlefield, 2002), xiii.

 

Dembski does not claim to have originated the concept of specified complexity:

The term specified complexity is about thirty years old. To my knowledge origin-of-life researcher Leslie Orgel was the first to use it. In his 1973 book The Origins of Life he wrote: “Living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals such as granite fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity” (189). More recently, Paul Davies (1999, 112) identified specified complexity as the key to resolving the problem of life’s origin: “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.”

The Logical Underpinnings of Intelligent Design

Is there a relationship between Leslie Orgel’s use of the term and Dembski’s. Yes, Dembski explains the relationship as follows:

Neither Orgel nor Davies, however, provided a precise analytic account of specified complexity. I provide such an account in The Design Inference (1998b) and its sequel No Free Lunch (2002). In this section I want briefly to outline my work on specified complexity. Orgel and Davies used specified complexity loosely. I’ve formalized it as a statistical criterion for identifying the effects of intelligence.

Id.

In summary, Orgel and Davies used the concept of specified complexity loosely. Dembski takes the concept they used loosely and formalizes it. One must be willfully obtuse, however, to fail to see the connection between the way Dembski uses the term and the way Orgel uses the term.

Dembski:

A long sequence of randomly strewn Scrabble pieces is complex without being specified.
A short sequence spelling the word “the” is specified without being complex.
A sequence corresponding to a Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified.

Orgel:

Mixtures of random polymers are complex without being specified.
Crystals such as granite are specified without being complex.
Living organisms are both complex and specified.

Yes, Orgel used the term more loosely than Dembski, but they are talking about the same concept. That is why Dembski repeatedly connects the term with Orgel and Davies in No Free Lunch.

When intelligent agents act, they leave behind a characteristic trademark or signature-what I define as specified complexity. [FN13] The complexity-specification criterion detects design by identifying this trademark of designed objects.
No Free Lunch, 6
[FN13]: The term “specified complexity” goes back at least to 1973, when Leslie Orgel used it in connection with origins-of-life research: “Living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals such as granite fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity.” See Orgel, The Origins of Life (New York: Wiley, 1973 ), 189. The challenge of specified complexity to nonteleological accounts of life’s origin continues to loom large. Thus according to Paul Davies, “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.” See Paul Davies, The Fifth Miracle (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1999), 112.

And

The central problem of biology is therefore not simply the origin of information but the origin of complex specified information. Paul Davies emphasized this point in his recent book The Fifth Miracle where he summarizes the current state of origin-of-life research: “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.” The problem of specified complexity has dogged origin-of-life research now for decades. Leslie Orgel recognized the problem in the early 1970s: “Living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals such as granite fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity.” [FN33]
No Free Lunch, 149
[FN33]: Leslie Orgel, The Origins of Life (New York: Wiley, 1973), 189.

And

In The Fifth Miracle Davies goes so far as to suggest that any laws capable of explaining the origin of life must be radically different from any scientific laws known to date.3 The problem, as he sees it, with currently known scientific laws, like the laws of chemistry and physics, is that they cannot explain the key feature of life that needs to be explained.   That feature is specified complexity. As Davies puts it: “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.” [FN 5]
No Free Lunch, 180
[FN5] Davies, Fifth Miracle, 112. Consider also the following claim by Leslie Orgel: “Living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals such as granite fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity.” In Leslie Orgel, The Origins of Life (New York: John Wiley, 1973), 189.

And

The term “specified complexity” has been in use for about thirty years. The first reference to it with which I am familiar is from Leslie Orgel’s 1973 book The Origins of Life, where specified complexity is treated as a feature of biological systems distinct from inorganic systems. [FN35]
No Free Lunch, 328-29.
[FN 35] Leslie Orgel, The Origins of Life (New York: Wiley, 1973 ), 189.

UPDATE (HT to Mung):

Orgel on Specified Complexity

Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well specified structures…Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures which are complex but not specified.

p. 189

Wait for it …

These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all.

– p. 190

A final nail:

Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes.

– p. 196

Comments
Joe: Basically Shannon only told us about information carrying capacity. Tamara Knight: But I’ve never claimed anything else That's a lie. You said: "Shannon is all about communication not meaning"Mung
November 25, 2014
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Z
That’s all well and good, but the claim is that quantified specified complexity is a signature of design.
We know that informational relationships can be build by design. I don't think we know of any other source for the origin of such.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel @ 82 That was an interesting bio - thanks.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Silver Asiatic: It’s an observation of a relationship. That's all well and good, but the claim is that quantified specified complexity is a signature of design.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel
We provided Dembski’s definition.
This OP offered definitions by Dembski. Wikipedia offers an extensive explanation of what information is:
As representation and complexity The cognitive scientist and applied mathematician Ronaldo Vigo argues that information is a concept that involves at least two related entities in order to make quantitative sense. These are, any dimensionally defined category of objects S, and any of its subsets R. R, in essence, is a representation of S, or, in other words, conveys representational (and hence, conceptual) information about S. Vigo then defines the amount of information that R conveys about S as the rate of change in the complexity of S whenever the objects in R are removed from S. Under "Vigo information", pattern, invariance, complexity, representation, and information—five fundamental constructs of universal science—are unified under a novel mathematical framework.[4][5] Among other things, the framework aims to overcome the limitations of Shannon-Weaver information when attempting to characterize and measure subjective information.
The above is interesting: "two related entities". It's an observation of a relationship. If you'd like to explain the evolutionary origin of informational relationships, I would find that interesting. Science recognizes that information exists and has certain characteristics. This subject matter is not reserved to ID researchers alone.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Silver Asiatic: I don’t think there needs to be a simple answer to the problem of information to recognize it and to draw reasonable inferences from what we observe. Which is why Claude Shannon is considered the father of information theory. Shannon laid one of the fundamental building blocks of the Information Age. http://www.corp.att.com/attlabs/reputation/timeline/16shannon.htmlZachriel
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel
Nor is there likely a simple answer to the problem of information.
I don't think there needs to be a simple answer to the problem of information to recognize it and to draw reasonable inferences from what we observe.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Mung
I’m thinking Orgel would call it a simple well-specified structure, like a crystal.
Would we say that unlike a crystal, what we know about coins is that they don't line up with all heads facing like that, but we know that crystals display patterns? In the same way, we know that trees grow vertically. But if we find a log standing vertically there's something different in that case.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Joe: Basically Shannon only told us about information carrying capacity.
But I've never claimed anything else, unless you want to back out of that position by claiming CSI can be carried without using up Shannon bandwidth. However it is good to have you on board. Together we can probably manage to correct Mung's misunderstanding about the equivalence of CSI and Shannon information.Tamara Knight
November 25, 2014
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R0bb:
If we have 500 coins lined up in a repeating pattern of all heads, is that an instance of specified complexity, according to Orgel’s usage of the term?
I'm thinking Orgel would call it a simple well-specified structure, like a crystal. Are they two-headed coins?Mung
November 25, 2014
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Mung- It is all the rage, ie communication without meaning. And I am pretty sure that is how Washington DC politics are carried out. :cool: And if you read Zachriel, keith and Tamara then you know that they live by the concept.Joe
November 25, 2014
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CSI wrt biology is all about biological specification which pertains to function (Dembski, "No Free Lunch"). It is the same as biological information as defined by Crick.Joe
November 25, 2014
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Tamara- try communicating by using a meaningless combination of grunts and random typing or words that you made up. Shannon was all about making sure what was transmitted is what was received. The machines used don't care about what the messages meant. That was Shannon's point. To a machine sending/ receiving gibberish is the same as sending/receiving detailed instructions. Basically Shannon only told us about information carrying capacity.Joe
November 25, 2014
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Silver Asiatic quoting Mung quoting Orgel: roughly speaking Orgel seems to be referring to something like Kolmogorov complexity, but not quite, because the shortest description of a random sequence is the sequence itself. It's a qualitative definition for the purpose of discussion. That's what Dembski's formula attempts to make precise. Unless you can calculate specified complexity, then you probably can't reach any firm conclusions based on specified complexity. Nor is there likely a simple answer to the problem of information.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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Shannon is all about communication not meaning.
Ah, the secret of the ID critique is revealed. It's communication without meaning. That explains so much. Thank you.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel: William, as an information theorist, claims he can determine design from the pattern alone. Is he wrong? Silver Asiatic: It sounds like a guessing game … it’s best to be as specific as possible when asking questions like that Not sure what is ambiguous about the question. Silver Asiatic: But anyway, note my response to Robb in #51. Do you agree or not? There's no way to know because you keep using the term CSI without providing a definition. We provided Dembski's definition. Silver Asiatic: If you’re hoping to trick me somehow, then you win. We just want to know what you mean by "CSI" and "information". If you can't provide a precise definition, then it's not clear your position is supportable.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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Joe @ 65 - thanks, whenever it's convenient. I think it would be an important thing to post not only for me.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel - you could look at this ... Mung #40 quoting Orgel on Information:
These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all. – p. 190
Does that help?Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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No,
I'm glad we agree with what I said: "Information science is not limited to Shannon information as sole means of identifying or defining information."
but you’re the one who said it was the same definition as used in communications.
If you're hoping to trick me somehow, then you win. Congratulations.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Z
William, as an information theorist, claims he can determine design from the pattern alone. Is he wrong?
It sounds like a guessing game ... it's best to be as specific as possible when asking questions like that, but anyway, note my response to Robb in #51. Do you agree or not?Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Joe @ 64
To make it unequivocally clear what we mean by information. Shannon dodn’t care about meaning whereas CSI is all about meaning or function. And communication would be impossible without meaning.
Right. Information has certain characteristics. When we observe a high degree of specificity and of complexity oriented towards meaning and function, if we observed also sender, code, translation and receiver - as with DNA coding, we call that CSI (for lack of a better term) to distinguish from Shannon information.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Joe: To make it unequivocally clear what we mean by information. Shannon dodn’t care about meaning whereas CSI is all about meaning or function.
Having just spotted your comment at the top of the recent posts list, it seems there has been a similar discussion here to the one over on the Dembski thread I'm glad we've cleared that up now and agree on at least one key issue. Let's hope with your help Mung can see the light too. However, you do rather muddy the waters again with your qualifier:
And communication would be impossible without meaning.
since Shannon is all about communication not meaning And then when told
Shannon information is highest for a random sequence,
you reply
Not necessarily.
Which is trivially true, because the set of random sequences for any Shannon length necessarily includes any strings which you claim contain CSI, whether or not that CSI is at a level you consider too unlikely to occur by natural means. Makes a good smokesceen though, because I'm sure a clever chap like you must know that the sums of the Shannon information in N m-bit random strings will be statistically higher than the sums of the Shannon information in N m-bit randomly chosen CSI laden strings. EDIT : Excellent enhancement. I don't know why that link did not work, but I can't edit it to point to: https://uncommondescent.com/informatics/how-is-bill-dembskis-being-as-communion-doing/#comment-528353Tamara Knight
November 25, 2014
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Silver Asiatic- I will look at NFL tonight when the painting is done for the day. I have the snow blower ready so that won't be a worry for later.Joe
November 25, 2014
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Why call it CSI if it is just the same definition of information used in communications, which is Shannon Information?
To make it unequivocally clear what we mean by information. Shannon dodn't care about meaning whereas CSI is all about meaning or function. And communication would be impossible without meaning.
Shannon information is highest for a random sequence,
Not necessarily.Joe
November 25, 2014
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Silver Asiatic: Why call it “natural selection” is nothing is actually being selected? In this case, it's a scientific term chosen because the effects are hypothesized to be similar to artificial selection. That's a different question than asking why you call information CSI if it is the same definition as used in communications, which already has a name. Silver Asiatic: We’re talking about scientific analysis, of course. Not a man who is afraid of ghosts. William is also blind. Can he reliably see the source of sounds? William, as an information theorist, claims he can determine design from the pattern alone. Is he wrong?Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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Silver Asiatic: All information is complex and specified. Not really. Shannon information has to do with uncertainty in a message stream. The underlying message may very well be a random sequence, which has the highest information density. You didn't provide any specific formula or algorithm for your notion of information. You might want to do that. Silver Asiatic: Information science is not limited to Shannon information as sole means of identifying or defining information. No, but you're the one who said it was the same definition as used in communications.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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William is afraid of the dark. “Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause?”
We're talking about scientific analysis, of course. Not a man who is afraid of ghosts. William is also blind. Can he reliably see the source of sounds? I think your analogy is too simple. Can science reliably determine that information is present (sender, coding, medium, translation, receiver, operation, organization)? I think so. After that, we're talking about inference to the best explanation of its origin.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Why call it CSI
It's a fair question. All information is complex and specified. But I think the term helps highlight that point. More importantly, there are degrees of complexity and specification - and we generally are talking about Highly Complex, and Highly Specified information (functional multi-level coding). So, as a means of stressing the nature of information, Complex and Specified are modifiers (not entirely necessary in my view). But science does this, doesn't it? Why call it "natural selection" is nothing is actually being selected? Information science is not limited to Shannon information as sole means of identifying or defining information.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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Silver Asiatic: Yes, I discussed that alternative definition in #48. Z: The problem is the changeable nature of the calculation of specified complexity. Silver Asiatic: We observe CSI – which is information. It’s the same that we see in communication – coding, sender, translation, receiver, organizing. Why call it CSI if it is just the same definition of information used in communications, which is Shannon Information? Shannon information is highest for a random sequence, so per that equivalence, white noise is high in CSI. Silver Asiatic: You’d use ordinary forensic techniques to determine if there is information present. William is afraid of the dark. "Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause?"Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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Joe
We believe that equation is to see if the specification warrants a design inference
That's the way I hope the equation is used. It's not what defines CSI, it only attempts to find the origin of it.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2014
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