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On the impossibility of replicating the cell: A problem for naturalism

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I have sometimes had the idea that the best way for Intelligent Design advocates to make their case would be to build a giant museum replicating the complexity of the cell on a large scale, so that people could see for themselves how the cell worked and draw their own conclusions. Recently I came across an old quote from biochemist Michael Denton’s Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Adler and Adler, 1985) which put paid to that idea, but which raised an interesting philosophical puzzle for people who adhere to scientific naturalism – which I define here as the view that there is nothing outside the natural world, by which I mean the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature]. Here is the first part of the quote from Denton, which I had seen before (h/t Matt Chait):

To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometres in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell.

We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules.

We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction. In fact, so deep would be the feeling of deja-vu, so persuasive the analogy, that much of the terminology we would use to describe this fascinating molecular reality would be borrowed from the world of late twentieth-century technology.

What we would be witnessing would be an object resembling an immense automated factory, a factory larger than a city and carrying out almost as many unique functions as all the manufacturing activities of man on earth. However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equalled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. To witness such an act at a magnification of one thousand million times would be an awe-inspiring spectacle. (pp. 328 ff.)

Reading this passage vindicated my belief that a museum of the cell would be a great way to promote ID. “If we build it, they will come,” I thought. But there was more to follow, which I hadn’t read before. It turns out that we can’t build a replica of the cell, down to the atomic level:

To gain a more objective grasp of the level of complexity the cell represents, consider the problem of constructing an atomic model. Altogether a typical cell contains about ten million million atoms. Suppose we choose to build an exact replica to a scale one thousand million times that of the cell so that each atom of the model would be the size of a tennis ball. Constructing such a model at the rate of one atom per minute, it would take fifty million years to finish, and the object we would end up with would be the giant factory, described above, some twenty kilometres in diameter, with a volume thousands of times that of the Great Pyramid.

Copying nature, we could speed up the construction of the model by using small molecules such as amino acids and nucleotides rather than individual atoms. Since individual amino acids and nucleotides are made up of between ten and twenty atoms each, this would enable us to finish the project in less than five million years. We could also speed up the project by mass producing those components in the cell which are present in many copies. Perhaps three-quarters of the cell’s mass can be accounted for by such components. But even if we could produce these very quickly we would still be faced with manufacturing a quarter of the cell’s mass which consists largely of components which only occur once or twice and which would have to be constructed, therefore, on an individual basis. The complexity of the cell, like that of any complex machine, cannot be reduced to any sort of simple pattern, nor can its manufacture be reduced to a simple set of algorithms or programmes. Working continually day and night it would still be difficult to finish the model in the space of one million years. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

But there’s more, as Matt Chait points out (emphasis mine):

And let me add my two cents to this astounding picture. The model that you would complete a million years later would be just that, a lifeless static model. For the cell to do its work this entire twenty kilometer structure and each of its trillions of components must be charged in specific ways, and at the level of the protein molecule, it must have an entire series of positive and negative charges and hydrophobic and hydrophilic parts all precisely shaped (at a level of precision far, far beyond our highest technical abilities) and charged in a whole series of ways: charged in a way to find other molecular components and combine with them; charged in a way to fold into a shape and maintain that most important shape, and charged in a way to be guided by other systems of charges to the precise spot in the cell where that particle must go. The pattern of charges and the movement of energy through the cell is easily as complex as the pattern of the physical particles themselves.

Also, Denton, in his discussion, uses a tennis ball to stand in for an atom. But an atom is not a ball. It is not even a ‘tiny solar system’ of neutrons, protons and electrons’ as we once thought. Rather, it has now been revealed to be an enormously complex lattice of forces connected by a bewildering array of utterly miniscule subatomic particles including hadrons, leptons, bosons, fermions, mesons, baryons, quarks and anti-quarks, up and down quarks, top and bottom quarks, charm quarks, strange quarks, virtual quarks, valence quarks, gluons and sea quarks…

And let me remind you again, that what we are talking about, a living cell, is a microscopic dot and thousands of these entire factories including all the complexity that we discussed above could fit on the head of a pin. Or, going another way, let’s add to this model of twenty square kilometers of breath taking complexity another one hundred trillion equally complex factories all working in perfect synchronous coordination with each other; which would be a model of the one hundred trillion celled human body, your body, that thing that we lug around every day and complain about; that would, spread laterally at the height of one cell at this magnification, blanket the entire surface of the earth four thousand times over, every part of which would contain pumps and coils and conduits and memory banks and processing centers; all working in perfect harmony with each other, all engineered to an unimaginable level of precision and all there to deliver to us our ability to be conscious, to see, to hear, to smell, to taste, and to experience the world as we are so used to experiencing it, that we have taken it and the fantastic mechanisms that make it possible for granted.

My question is, “Why don’t we know this?” What Michael Denton has written and I have added to is a perfectly accurate, easily intelligible, non-hyperbolic view of the cell. Why is this not taught in every introductory biology class in our schools?

Based on the foregoing, I think it’s fair to say that we’ll never be able to construct a computer model of the cell either, down to the atomic level: the computing resources required would just be too huge. And in that case, it will never be scientifically possible to model a natural process (or a set of processes) and demonstrate that it could have given rise to the cell – or even show that it had a greater than 50% probability of doing so.

So here’s my question for the skeptics: if we have no hope of ever proving the idea that the cell could have arisen through unguided natural processes, or even showing this idea to be probably true, then how can we possibly be said to know for a fact that this actually happened? Knowledge, after all, isn’t merely a true belief; it has to be a justified true belief. What could justify the claim that abiogenesis actually occurred?

It gets worse. We cannot legitimately be said to know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that life could have arisen via unguided processes. But if we don’t know the latter, then we cannot know the former. Ergo, scientific naturalism, even if were true, can never be known to be true.

There’s more. Scientific naturalists are fond of claiming that there are only two valid sources of knowledge: a priori truths of logic and mathematics, which can be known through reason alone; and a posteriori empirical truths, which are known as a result of experience and/or scientific inquiry. The statement that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance on the primordial Earth is neither a truth of logic and mathematics nor a truth which can be demonstrated (or even shown to be probable) via experience and/or scientific inquiry. And since we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance, it follows that the truth of scientific naturalism cannot be known through either of the two avenues of knowledge postulated by the skeptic. So either there must be some third source of knowledge (intuition, perhaps?) that the skeptic has to fall back on. Yeah, right.

And please, don’t tell me, “Well, scientists have explained X, Y and Z, so it’s only a matter of time before they can explain life.” First, that’s illicit reasoning: performing inductive logic over a set of things is problematic enough (black swans, anyone?), but performing it over a set of scientific theories, concocted during a time-span of just 471 years – the Scientific Revolution is commonly held to have begun in 1543 – is absolutely ridiculous. And second, as I’ve argued above, there’s good reason to believe that our computing resources will never be up to the task of showing that the first living cell could have arisen via a natural, unguided process.

One last question: if we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true or even probably true, then why should we believe it?

Checkmate, naturalists? Over to you.

Comments
Tell that to every IDer who believes that “God” sprang into existence from nothing and created the universe from nothing.
I don't know of any IDers that believe any of that. Nor do I.
And you do realize, don’t you, that by claiming ID goes at least as far back as 400 BC and that ID undergirded scientific exploration for hundreds of years you’re contradicting IDers who claim that ID is “young” and you’re making it very difficult for you IDers to claim that IDers have been blocked from science.
What IDers claim that ID is "young"? The current, scientific theory form of ID is relatively young - before the middle ages it was largely a philosophical argument. I think the complaint now about ID theorists being ostracized from the current scientific community is largely due to the response to the new, scientific formulation of the ID argument which materialists & atheists find threatening to their ideology.
William, I have to go for now but I’ll leave you with a question: You’re a theist who believes in one creator god and that that god is the source (creator) of all existence, right?
It would be more accurate to say that I have chosen to provisionally assume and act as if such a god exists, not that I actually believe such a god exists. Whether such a god actually exists or not is largely irrelevant to me. However, I think it would be difficult to reconcile my concept of god and reality with most IDists. That being said, I can easily see that ID is certainly a valid scientific theory by any reasonable measure. Now, whether or not their means of discerning ID is rigorously valid or not I do not know, but in principle ID presents sound scientific arguments that, from my perspective, anti-ID advocates act like madmen attempting to deny and derail.William J Murray
November 30, 2014
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Victorian-age racists? Sheesh.Pachyaena
November 30, 2014
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William J Murray said: "These are certainly not concepts derivable from the idea that a universe sprang into existence from nothing." Tell that to every IDer who believes that "God" sprang into existence from nothing and created the universe from nothing. And you do realize, don't you, that by claiming ID goes at least as far back as 400 BC and that ID undergirded scientific exploration for hundreds of years you're contradicting IDers who claim that ID is "young" and you're making it very difficult for you IDers to claim that IDers have been blocked from science. William, I have to go for now but I'll leave you with a question: You're a theist who believes in one creator god and that that god is the source (creator) of all existence, right?Pachyaena
November 30, 2014
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Pachyaena said:
Are you IDers ever going to be honest? Will you PLEASE be honest?
Calling me dishonest doesn't point out the dishonesty. I strive to be entirely honest, even to the point of giving information that can be used against me in an argument. If you can point to where the actual theory of ID requires creationism, you'd have a point. But it does not. Even if the theory of ID was carefully crafted by creationists to avoid any creationist entanglements, that doesn't mean the theory it self has any necessarily creationist aspects. Once again, who offers the theory and why doesn't make the theory a bad theory. What matters is what the theory actually asserts. Similarly, because a bunch of victorian-age racists first advanced the theory of evolution doesn't make it a scientifically non-valid theory.William J Murray
November 30, 2014
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I'm not of any Abrahamic faith - or any organized religion - and I'm an advocate of ID. Even if all IDists were abrahamic creationists and they all were using ID to advance some social agenda, that wouldn't change the fact that ID theory itself is an entirely valid scientific undertaking. You have to be able to separate the message from the messenger to see if the message has any validity; who delivers the message and why has no bearing on it.William J Murray
November 30, 2014
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William J Murray said: A bunch of dishonest hooey. Are you IDers ever going to be honest? Will you PLEASE be honest?Pachyaena
November 30, 2014
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Pachyaena @200:
If belief in intelligent design and the incorporation of that belief into scientific studies were a better way of conducting scientific studies of nature, IDers would be the ones making all of the productive scientific discoveries and accurate predictions, and IDers would be the ones proposing and conducting new, detailed, productive avenues of further scientific research. In other words, ID science would be noticeably superior to non-ID science. In reality, adding the label “ID” to the scientific study of nature accomplishes nothing productive in any way.
Well, actually, up to very recently ID was exactly the view that undergirded scientific exploration for hundreds of years. The ID premise is in fact logically necessary for the expectation of a natural world and corresponding human faculty of understanding that would make the world comprehensible in terms of natural laws and forces. Why do you think natural laws are expected to be elegant? Why do you think anyone should expect nature to be efficient? Why would we assume natural laws are universal? These are certainly not concepts derivable from the idea that a universe sprang into existence from nothing. Indeed, most of the greatest, most useful concepts in science stemmed from the assumption of ID, that we were uncovering "the mind of god". The scientific literature is full of corresponding assumptive design and teleological terminology. Indeed, the scientific method itself is dependent upon the assumption of a reliably consistent, orderly, law-bound universe - something we would only have an expectation for if we assumed something was imposing such an orderly, universal system onto the behavior of matter and energy in the first place. Please try and remember, natural laws describe behavior, they don't cause the behavior. We have no idea why matter should behave the way it does. Without a heuristic of investigation that provides a framework as to why we should expect order, regularity, universality, elegance, efficiency and comprehensibility in the first place, then scientific investigation flounders in a primitive state as it did for centuries under other, less adequate worldviews. For atheistic materialists to basically "take over" the halls of science built by theists before them and then pronounce ID useless or counterproductive to science while still using their foundation and their principles is laughable.William J Murray
November 30, 2014
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Joe said: "And anyone who sez that ID is relabeled creationism is also willfully ignorant or very dishonest. ID doesn’t have anything top do with religion and ID does not require God." (my bolding) Oh really? Have you verified all of that, and especially the bolded part, with Dembski, Meyer, West, Kenyon, Howard Ahmanson, kairosfocus, bornagain77, VJ Torley, O'leary, Barry Arrington, WL Craig, Egnor, Behe, Wells, Luskin, McLatchie, and all other IDers? Maybe you can get all of them to come here and honestly speak about that. Joe, if 'the designer' isn't "God", who or what is 'the designer'? "If the Bible were refuted creationism would fall but ID would not be effected." How about the koran, Joe? And are you claiming that all creationists are Christians?Pachyaena
November 30, 2014
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Pachyaena said:
I’m saying that you are dishonest, and so is anyone else who claims that “ID” is not relabeled creationism.
ID theory is basically a science-based, modern version of the teleological argument, which goes at least as far back as 400 BC. Creationists may be using the ID argument to advance their view, better their argument, or as the basis of some social agenda, but ID is most certainly not relabeled creationism per se. Quoting what leading ID advocates have said in various contexts wrt their personal, philosophical or religious views doesn't change the fact of what ID theory is and states, any more than quoting Darwinists without context can define what Darwinistic evolutionary theory is and states.William J Murray
November 30, 2014
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Joe, do you thoroughly understand the alleged intelligent design-creation of life itself, humans and all other species that have ever existed, the formation and geological history of this planet, and the formation and history of everything else in/about the universe, including time, light, gravity, etc., and allegedly immaterial and/or supernatural designer-creator-god(s), information, consciousness, souls, etc.?Pachyaena
November 30, 2014
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And anyone who sez that ID is relabeled creationism is also willfully ignorant or very dishonest. ID doesn't have anything top do with religion and ID does not require God. If the Bible were refuted creationism would fall but ID would not be effected.Joe
November 30, 2014
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ID has entailments and Zachriel has been made aware of them. So either Zachriel is willfully ignorant or very dishonest. OTH unguided / blind watchmaker evolution doesn't have any entailments and as such is outside of science.Joe
November 30, 2014
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Querius: You made the unsupported assertion that “ID advocates never actually do that. Study it, that is. They conclude design and then stop.” We've never seen any study in a scientific journal concerning the hypothesized designer, or much of anything for that matter. Perhaps we are mistaken. Do you have a few citations for consideration. Querius: I simply said that the ID position is that if something looks designed (whatever that might be), to study it as if it were. No one is holding you back. Having determined something was designed, what else have you determined? Querius: However, the inferences you’re asking about are in the realm of philosophy or religion. What? Asking about the designer of the Empire State Building isn't philosophy or religion. Querius: ID is not a model, it’s a paradigm. And because it doesn't propose a model, it has no entailments, and is scientifically sterile.Zachriel
November 30, 2014
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P.S. If what you say is true, every point ever made by IDers has been conceded many, many, many times, so you (Querius) might like to have a chat with your fellow IDers about ad hominem attacks and conceding points.Pachyaena
November 30, 2014
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Querius said: "Questioning my honesty is an ad hominem attack, which means that you’ve run out of arguments and have conceded the point." I'm not "Questioning" your honesty. I'm saying that you are dishonest, and so is anyone else who claims that "ID" is not relabeled creationism. "Intelligent Design opens the whole possibility of us being created in the image of a benevolent God." (William Dembski) "The job of apologetics is to clear the ground, to clear obstacles that prevent people from coming to the knowledge of Christ.... And if there's anything that I think has blocked the growth of Christ as the free reign of the Spirit and people accepting the Scripture and Jesus Christ, it is the Darwinian naturalistic view.... It's important that we understand the world. God has created it; Jesus is incarnate in the world." (William Dembski) "The mechanical philosophy was ever blind to this fact. Intelligent design, on the other hand, readily embraces the sacramental nature of physical reality. Indeed, intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory." (William Dembski) "This is really an opportunity to mobilize a new generation of scholars and pastors not just to equip the saints but also to engage the culture and reclaim it for Christ. That's really what is driving me." (William Dembski) "But there are deeper motivations. I think at a fundamental level, in terms of what drives me in this is that I think God's glory is being robbed by these naturalistic approaches to biological evolution, creation, the origin of the world, the origin of biological complexity and diversity. When you are attributing the wonders of nature to these mindless material mechanisms, God's glory is getting robbed...And so there is a cultural war here. Ultimately I want to see God get the credit for what he's done - and he's not getting it." (William Dembski) "Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration." (William Dembski) "My thesis is that all disciplines find their completion in Christ and cannot be properly understood apart from Christ." (William Dembski) Want more evidence?Pachyaena
November 30, 2014
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Zachriel @ 215,
Querius: No, the opposite is true. Maybe you’re confusing ID with Creationism. If not, could you provide an example for your assertion? Zachriel: That’s funny. You want an example of something said not to exist.
You made the unsupported assertion that "ID advocates never actually do that. Study it, that is. They conclude design and then stop." It's your onus to support it, not mine to chase behind you and falsify your every wild assertion.
Querius: ID is a paradigm for studying complex systems using the constraints of the scientific method based on assuming that if something has the appearance of design, it should be studied as if it were. Zachriel: Now that you’ve identified design, what have you discovered thus far? What research program is based on ID beyond merely the claim that something is designed? As there is a causal connection between an artifact, the art, and the artisan, what can you tell us about the art? What of the mechanisms by which the artisan imposed his design? What characteristics can you infer about the artisan from a study of the art and the artifacts?
I did not identify design, and as I said before, ID takes no position on the designer(s). I simply said that the ID position is that if something looks designed (whatever that might be), to study it as if it were. Popular examples include a mechanical engineering approach to studying the construction and operation of flagellar motors, and the assumption that "junk" DNA is not junk, but designed for a purpose. However, the inferences you're asking about are in the realm of philosophy or religion.
Querius: Maybe you’re confusing ID with Creationism. Zachriel: At least Creationism provides a rudimentary model.
Are you reading my posts? ID is not a model, it's a paradigm. Creationism asserts that the Genesis narrative is an accurate description of the origins of the universe and life on earth. It is not a model in any scientific sense. -QQuerius
November 29, 2014
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Pachyaena @ 214 said,
Hogwash. Are you IDers ever going to be honest?
"Hogwash" might be your opinion, but it's not a cogent argument. Questioning my honesty is an ad hominem attack, which means that you've run out of arguments and have conceded the point. Goodbye. -QQuerius
November 29, 2014
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Glad to hear it :)CharlieM
November 29, 2014
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CharlieM: We see from observation that bacteria make flagella. That's fine. We're in agreement.Zachriel
November 29, 2014
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Zachriel, why would I mention any other artisan? We see from observation that bacteria make flagella. What is your point?CharlieM
November 29, 2014
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Sorry, not sure how to edit, but in my last comment only the first sentence is by Zachriel, all that follows is my reply.CharlieM
November 29, 2014
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CharlieM: I agree. But why do you stop short at the artisan? In your proposed scheme the flagellum is the artifact, the way it is constructed, maintained and put to use is the art and the bacterial cell is the artisan. Notably, you didn't mention an artisan other than the bacterium. CharlieM: It is extremely unlikely that we will ever know who first came up with the idea, but that doesn’t stop us studying and admiring the artifact and the art, and speculating about how the artisan developed the skill and with whom did the skill originate. We can research how they developed the skill, by replicating the process.Zachriel
November 29, 2014
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Zachriel @ # 181: If you claim something is an artifact, then there is a necessary chain of causation from the artifact to the art to the artisan. I agree. But why do you stop short at the artisan? In your proposed scheme the flagellum is the artifact, the way it is constructed, maintained and put to use is the art and the bacterial cell is the artisan. In relation to arrow heads the specimen is the artifact, the way it is constructed and used is the art and the individual who made it is the artisan. But we can go further. Before arrows were first contructed and used some person held the idea in their minds. The thought preceeded the construction by the artisan. It is extremely unlikely that we will ever know who first came up with the idea, but that doesn't stop us studying and admiring the artifact and the art, and speculating about how the artisan developed the skill and with whom did the skill originate.CharlieM
November 29, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: The original paper on the non-computability of consciousness gave a mathematical proof that eliminates the possibility of algorithmically creating or expanding IC configurations. You are presumably referring to Maguire et al., Is Consciousness Computable? Quantifying Integrated Information Using Algorithmic Information Theory, Proceedings of the 36th Annual Conference of the Cognitive Science Society 2014. We already pointed out several problems with their proofs. They define integrating function such that “the knowledge of m(z) does not help to describe m(z'), when z and z' are close”, which is exactly contrary to how people learn and developing understanding. They also state, “An integrating function’s output is such that the information of its two (or more) inputs is completely integrated.” But we know from simple observation that people integrate information incompletely. In other words, information is always lost during the process of learning. People integrate new knowledge within the parameters of what they already know. fifthmonarchyman: X is IC therefor X can not be created or expanded by algorithmic means. Yes, that's your claim. You keep using IC in an idiosyncratic manner. It doesn't appear explicitly defined on this thread. It means the sum of information is greater than the information of its parts. Is that correct? Please define information. fifthmonarchyman: Again you are looking at this the wrong way if you produce such an algorithm you falsify the hypothesis. Okay. But no such algorithm is known. Does this tell us anything? No. fifthmonarchyman: Your failure to do so provides only indirect support to the hypothesis. It doesn't even do that unless you can show why humans should be able to explore the realm of algorithms sufficiently to solve the problem. Frankly, we're not even sure you can define it specifically enough to know when we have solved the problem.Zachriel
November 29, 2014
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ZAc says It’s a broad claim that is conflated with human technical ability. I say, No Zac I believe you are mistaken. The original paper on the non-computability of consciousness gave a mathematical proof that eliminates the possibility of algorithmically creating or expanding IC configurations. This proof holds universally regardless of the technical ability of the programer. The only way around the proof is to establish that IC configurations don't actually exist in reality. I am pretty sure you know this already Zac says, Nor is it a specific observation that can be tested. I say Actually it can be phrased in a very specific way X is IC therefor X can not be created or expanded by algorithmic means. Substitute any IC configuration for X and you are ready to test. The X we have been using here is "Shakespearean Sonnets" but "bacterial Flagellum" works just as well ZAc says, In other words, if you can’t produce such an algorithm, what does it show? I say, Again you are looking at this the wrong way if you produce such an algorithm you falsify the hypothesis. Your failure to do so provides only indirect support to the hypothesis. A negative cancer screening does not prove you are cancer free but repeated negatives indirectly supports that contention peacefifthmonarchyman
November 29, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: Hypothesis: IC configurations are not-computable entailment: IC sets can not be created or expanded by algorithmic means That's just a restatement of the hypothesis. Nor is it a specific observation that can be tested. It's a broad claim that is conflated with human technical ability. In other words, if you can't produce such an algorithm, what does it show? Zachriel: An interface to spacetime? Any evidence of this? Vishnu: I have all I need. Perhaps, but you can't or won't provide support for your position. Zachriel: But ID advocates never actually do that. Study it, that is. They conclude design and then stop. Querius: No, the opposite is true. Maybe you’re confusing ID with Creationism. If not, could you provide an example for your assertion? That's funny. You want an example of something said not to exist. Querius: ID is a paradigm for studying complex systems using the constraints of the scientific method based on assuming that if something has the appearance of design, it should be studied as if it were. Now that you've identified design, what have you discovered thus far? What research program is based on ID beyond merely the claim that something is designed? As there is a causal connection between an artifact, the art, and the artisan, what can you tell us about the art? What of the mechanisms by which the artisan imposed his design? What characteristics can you infer about the artisan from a study of the art and the artifacts? Querius: Maybe you’re confusing ID with Creationism. At least Creationism provides a rudimentary model. Genesis 2,7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Zachriel
November 29, 2014
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Querius said: "ID takes no position on the identity of the designer(s). You’re confusing ID with Creationism. ID is a paradigm for studying complex systems using the constraints of the scientific method based on assuming that if something has the appearance of design, it should be studied as if it were." Hogwash. Are you IDers ever going to be honest? "In contrast, Creationism is a religious belief out of the domain of the scientific method." I agree, and since ID is just creationism with a dishonest label, it is a religious belief out of the domain of the scientific method. For a start (yes, there is much more evidence): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Pandas_and_People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategyPachyaena
November 29, 2014
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Zachriel @ 181 responded with a description of how one would intelligently differentiate between conchoidal fractures that are natural versus those that are designed to be stone tools. Nicely stated, and I agree.
Querius: All that ID advocates is that if something seems designed, study it as if it were. Zachriel: But ID advocates never actually do that. Study it, that is. They conclude design and then stop.
No, the opposite is true. Maybe you're confusing ID with Creationism. If not, could you provide an example for your assertion? Thank you. -QQuerius
November 28, 2014
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Pachyaena @ 174 incorrectly noted:
Then why do you IDers believe and claim that ‘God-did-it’ as described in the biblical story of Genesis?
ID takes no position on the identity of the designer(s). You're confusing ID with Creationism. ID is a paradigm for studying complex systems using the constraints of the scientific method based on assuming that if something has the appearance of design, it should be studied as if it were. In contrast, Creationism is a religious belief out of the domain of the scientific method. -QQuerius
November 28, 2014
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Me_Think @ 171 noted
There is no ID here, only the structure of layered silica guides the conchoid.
That's obviously your default assumption. The problem is that in some cases, it's widely accepted that these types of fractures were intelligently created by paleolithic humans as choppers and scrapers. Oops. The ID position is if it looks like it's designed, study it as if it were. Do you see what I mean? -QQuerius
November 28, 2014
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