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On the impossibility of replicating the cell: A problem for naturalism

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I have sometimes had the idea that the best way for Intelligent Design advocates to make their case would be to build a giant museum replicating the complexity of the cell on a large scale, so that people could see for themselves how the cell worked and draw their own conclusions. Recently I came across an old quote from biochemist Michael Denton’s Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Adler and Adler, 1985) which put paid to that idea, but which raised an interesting philosophical puzzle for people who adhere to scientific naturalism – which I define here as the view that there is nothing outside the natural world, by which I mean the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature]. Here is the first part of the quote from Denton, which I had seen before (h/t Matt Chait):

To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometres in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell.

We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules.

We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction. In fact, so deep would be the feeling of deja-vu, so persuasive the analogy, that much of the terminology we would use to describe this fascinating molecular reality would be borrowed from the world of late twentieth-century technology.

What we would be witnessing would be an object resembling an immense automated factory, a factory larger than a city and carrying out almost as many unique functions as all the manufacturing activities of man on earth. However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equalled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. To witness such an act at a magnification of one thousand million times would be an awe-inspiring spectacle. (pp. 328 ff.)

Reading this passage vindicated my belief that a museum of the cell would be a great way to promote ID. “If we build it, they will come,” I thought. But there was more to follow, which I hadn’t read before. It turns out that we can’t build a replica of the cell, down to the atomic level:

To gain a more objective grasp of the level of complexity the cell represents, consider the problem of constructing an atomic model. Altogether a typical cell contains about ten million million atoms. Suppose we choose to build an exact replica to a scale one thousand million times that of the cell so that each atom of the model would be the size of a tennis ball. Constructing such a model at the rate of one atom per minute, it would take fifty million years to finish, and the object we would end up with would be the giant factory, described above, some twenty kilometres in diameter, with a volume thousands of times that of the Great Pyramid.

Copying nature, we could speed up the construction of the model by using small molecules such as amino acids and nucleotides rather than individual atoms. Since individual amino acids and nucleotides are made up of between ten and twenty atoms each, this would enable us to finish the project in less than five million years. We could also speed up the project by mass producing those components in the cell which are present in many copies. Perhaps three-quarters of the cell’s mass can be accounted for by such components. But even if we could produce these very quickly we would still be faced with manufacturing a quarter of the cell’s mass which consists largely of components which only occur once or twice and which would have to be constructed, therefore, on an individual basis. The complexity of the cell, like that of any complex machine, cannot be reduced to any sort of simple pattern, nor can its manufacture be reduced to a simple set of algorithms or programmes. Working continually day and night it would still be difficult to finish the model in the space of one million years. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

But there’s more, as Matt Chait points out (emphasis mine):

And let me add my two cents to this astounding picture. The model that you would complete a million years later would be just that, a lifeless static model. For the cell to do its work this entire twenty kilometer structure and each of its trillions of components must be charged in specific ways, and at the level of the protein molecule, it must have an entire series of positive and negative charges and hydrophobic and hydrophilic parts all precisely shaped (at a level of precision far, far beyond our highest technical abilities) and charged in a whole series of ways: charged in a way to find other molecular components and combine with them; charged in a way to fold into a shape and maintain that most important shape, and charged in a way to be guided by other systems of charges to the precise spot in the cell where that particle must go. The pattern of charges and the movement of energy through the cell is easily as complex as the pattern of the physical particles themselves.

Also, Denton, in his discussion, uses a tennis ball to stand in for an atom. But an atom is not a ball. It is not even a ‘tiny solar system’ of neutrons, protons and electrons’ as we once thought. Rather, it has now been revealed to be an enormously complex lattice of forces connected by a bewildering array of utterly miniscule subatomic particles including hadrons, leptons, bosons, fermions, mesons, baryons, quarks and anti-quarks, up and down quarks, top and bottom quarks, charm quarks, strange quarks, virtual quarks, valence quarks, gluons and sea quarks…

And let me remind you again, that what we are talking about, a living cell, is a microscopic dot and thousands of these entire factories including all the complexity that we discussed above could fit on the head of a pin. Or, going another way, let’s add to this model of twenty square kilometers of breath taking complexity another one hundred trillion equally complex factories all working in perfect synchronous coordination with each other; which would be a model of the one hundred trillion celled human body, your body, that thing that we lug around every day and complain about; that would, spread laterally at the height of one cell at this magnification, blanket the entire surface of the earth four thousand times over, every part of which would contain pumps and coils and conduits and memory banks and processing centers; all working in perfect harmony with each other, all engineered to an unimaginable level of precision and all there to deliver to us our ability to be conscious, to see, to hear, to smell, to taste, and to experience the world as we are so used to experiencing it, that we have taken it and the fantastic mechanisms that make it possible for granted.

My question is, “Why don’t we know this?” What Michael Denton has written and I have added to is a perfectly accurate, easily intelligible, non-hyperbolic view of the cell. Why is this not taught in every introductory biology class in our schools?

Based on the foregoing, I think it’s fair to say that we’ll never be able to construct a computer model of the cell either, down to the atomic level: the computing resources required would just be too huge. And in that case, it will never be scientifically possible to model a natural process (or a set of processes) and demonstrate that it could have given rise to the cell – or even show that it had a greater than 50% probability of doing so.

So here’s my question for the skeptics: if we have no hope of ever proving the idea that the cell could have arisen through unguided natural processes, or even showing this idea to be probably true, then how can we possibly be said to know for a fact that this actually happened? Knowledge, after all, isn’t merely a true belief; it has to be a justified true belief. What could justify the claim that abiogenesis actually occurred?

It gets worse. We cannot legitimately be said to know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that life could have arisen via unguided processes. But if we don’t know the latter, then we cannot know the former. Ergo, scientific naturalism, even if were true, can never be known to be true.

There’s more. Scientific naturalists are fond of claiming that there are only two valid sources of knowledge: a priori truths of logic and mathematics, which can be known through reason alone; and a posteriori empirical truths, which are known as a result of experience and/or scientific inquiry. The statement that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance on the primordial Earth is neither a truth of logic and mathematics nor a truth which can be demonstrated (or even shown to be probable) via experience and/or scientific inquiry. And since we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance, it follows that the truth of scientific naturalism cannot be known through either of the two avenues of knowledge postulated by the skeptic. So either there must be some third source of knowledge (intuition, perhaps?) that the skeptic has to fall back on. Yeah, right.

And please, don’t tell me, “Well, scientists have explained X, Y and Z, so it’s only a matter of time before they can explain life.” First, that’s illicit reasoning: performing inductive logic over a set of things is problematic enough (black swans, anyone?), but performing it over a set of scientific theories, concocted during a time-span of just 471 years – the Scientific Revolution is commonly held to have begun in 1543 – is absolutely ridiculous. And second, as I’ve argued above, there’s good reason to believe that our computing resources will never be up to the task of showing that the first living cell could have arisen via a natural, unguided process.

One last question: if we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true or even probably true, then why should we believe it?

Checkmate, naturalists? Over to you.

Comments
Replicating the cell...? How about making the cell membrane with all the necessary components in the environment even life can't resist.... It is a fairy-tail beyond science... beyond reason... it is wimpy BS...Quest
November 28, 2014
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Vishnu:
I have no doubt about that the brain is the organ of thought, an interface of consciousness to spacetime, and the thing that determines what consciousness experiences.
Zachriel:
An interface to spacetime? Any evidence of this?
Vishnu:
I have all I need.
:Dkeith s
November 28, 2014
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Vishnu: I have no doubt about that the brain is the organ of thought, an interface of consciousness to spacetime, and the thing that determines what consciousness experiences. Zachriel: An interface to spacetime? Any evidence of this?
I have all I need.
Vishnu: We don’t know much about how the brain does what it does. It’s controversial. Zachriel: Most of the controversy seems to be philosophical, not scientific.
One's philosophy colors one interpretation of evidence which necessarily affects scientific interpretations. Current scientific interpretations are quite weak.
Vishnu: My point is, the starting point of ID is implicitly ourselves. Zachriel: And the starting point in biology is the commonalities between human and non-human cognition. This technique of scientific inquiry has led to many scientific advances, while philosophical musing largely reached a deadend centuries ago.
ID is not merely philosophical musings. And ID is a young endeavor with a lot of opposition from an entrenched philosophy and ideology. We'll have to wait and see what happens over the next generation or two.Vishnu
November 28, 2014
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Me Think- There isn't any blind watchmaker research even though you have all the resources. No blind watchmaker progress- nothing. You don't even have a theory. BTW science isn't about proof and there is plenty of positive evidence for ID in peer-reviewed journals. You are just too dim to assess that evidenceJoe
November 28, 2014
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CharlieM # 196
More realistically, ID research is forcefully resisted and design is not allowed to be considered as an option.
That is what ID propaganda wants you to believe. Nothing stops ID from putting out their scientific proof. Nothing stopped them from putting out CSI and white noise search landscape - not even lack of proof.
Critics are desperate to keep ID tied to creationism because that way they feel justified in barring ID from the field of science. What you imagine to be resistance to the topic of designers is in fact you witnessing ID critics getting nowhere when they try to force the subject of designers into the science of ID.
one more time, all together now - Evilutionists are not the road block, it is lack of proof that stops ID from progress.Me_Think
November 28, 2014
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sock puppet:
Joe, since you and all other IDers claim to have long ago determined the existence of intelligent design, what’s stopping you from studying the design and looking for “an intelligent designer”?
We are studying the design. We just don't have your seemingly stupid agenda. What would change for the better? LoL! Even Dawkins understands that we would be looking at a totally different biology- ie one ruled by intelligent design as opposed to contingency. We would also be looking for immaterial information that runs biology. And to top it all off we would understand that there is a purpose to our being. There isn't any blind watchmaker research going on. No one would even know what to do. And that bothers you.Joe
November 28, 2014
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Pachyaena Are you’re claiming that nothing in or about the universe is an algorithm and that nothing in or about the universe is caused by or dependent on any algorithm, except algorithms invented by humans? I say, No not at all. What ever in the world would possibly have lead you to draw such a bizarre conclusion?fifthmonarchyman
November 28, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman, you seem to have missed my question at number 143 so here it is again: Are you’re claiming that nothing in or about the universe is an algorithm and that nothing in or about the universe is caused by or dependent on any algorithm, except algorithms invented by humans?Pachyaena
November 28, 2014
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CharlieM said: "Of course the bacterial flagellum can be described as a mechanism. they can measure its speed, the torque it generates and describe how it propels the cell through the medium. What is not mechanistic about that." Thank you for confirming my point (that you IDers describe life forms in a mechanistic way). "The op proposed building a gigantic model of the cell. Do you not think that this could only be achieved by manipulating physical materials and using mechanical tools? Or do you think that an ID advocate would expect it to be poofed into existence just by the power of thought? I can assure you that it will only be built by adhering to the laws of physics." So then, you're claiming that intelligent design is mechanistic-mechanical and that the ID inference, hypothesis, theory, or whatever you call it is a mechanistic-mechanical inference, hypothesis, theory, or whatever you call it. Now, maybe you and other IDers would like to describe how, when, and where the alleged non-physical designer-creator designed and created physical bacterial flagella and other "physical systems" and life forms? I said: "P.S. Landing a punch is not a “component” of someone, at least not in the same sense that a flagellum is a “component” of a bacterium." You responded: "No but the bones, muscles, nerves, etc that achieve this are components of someone in the same sense that a flagellum is a “component” of a bacterium." Thank you for confirming my point (That landing a punch is not a “component” of someone, at least not in the same sense that a flagellum is a “component” of a bacterium.) You're the one who erroneously equated a flagellum with someone landing a punch. You might as well have said that driving a car or flushing a toilet is a "component" of someone.Pachyaena
November 28, 2014
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Zac said, An entailment is a deduction from the hypothesis. I say, Ah you want an entailment why did you not say so? Hypothesis: IC configurations are not-computable entailment: IC sets can not be created or expanded by algorithmic means specific example a program to expand the set of Shakespearean sonnets sufficiently to infallibly fool an observer is impossible hope that helps peacefifthmonarchyman
November 28, 2014
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Zachriel correctly stated: "But ID advocates never actually do that. Study it, that is. They conclude design and then stop." Joe dodged: "Seeing that we only look for an intelligent designer AFTER we have determined the existence of intelligent design..." Joe, since you and all other IDers claim to have long ago determined the existence of intelligent design, what's stopping you from studying the design and looking for "an intelligent designer"? The answer to those questions is obvious. You already have your minds made up as to who the designer is: the biblical-koranical god. No one is stopping you IDers from studying anything that you want to study. IDers want and expect all scientists everywhere to devote all of their studies to intelligent design even though no IDer has or can point out even one thing that would change for the better in the scientific study of nature if all scientists were to believe that intelligent design exists in the ways that IDers claim it does and incorporate that belief into their scientific studies. If belief in intelligent design and the incorporation of that belief into scientific studies were a better way of conducting scientific studies of nature, IDers would be the ones making all of the productive scientific discoveries and accurate predictions, and IDers would be the ones proposing and conducting new, detailed, productive avenues of further scientific research. In other words, ID science would be noticeably superior to non-ID science. In reality, adding the label "ID" to the scientific study of nature accomplishes nothing productive in any way.Pachyaena
November 28, 2014
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LoL! @ Zachriel! Notice that Zach didn't use evolutionism as an example of providing scientific entailments. :razz:Joe
November 28, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: What exactly are you looking for here? An entailment is a deduction from the hypothesis. Your #2 is not a deduction. You introduced a new term, transcendental, then claim without support that it is non-algorithmic. Again, look at historical examples. Given Newton's Gravity, then through a series of calculations (deductions), a comet will appear in 1758. http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/comets/halley.htmlZachriel
November 28, 2014
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Pachyaena @ #163 I don't see what your problem is. Of course the bacterial flagellum can be described as a mechanism. they can measure its speed, the torque it generates and describe how it propels the cell through the medium. What is not mechanistic about that. The op proposed building a gigantic model of the cell. Do you not think that this could only be achieved by manipulating physical materials and using mechanical tools? Or do you think that an ID advocate would expect it to be poofed into existence just by the power of thought? I can assure you that it will only be built by adhering to the laws of physics. You say: P.S. Landing a punch is not a “component” of someone, at least not in the same sense that a flagellum is a “component” of a bacterium. No but the bones, muscles, nerves, etc that achieve this are components of someone in the same sense that a flagellum is a “component” of a bacterium.CharlieM
November 28, 2014
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Me_Think @ 155 You say: ID falters at design detection stage. Any further, it disintegrates. That’s the reason there is so much resistant to the question of designer(s). Even to know if there is a single or multiple designers you need to know about the designer. Me: More realistically, ID research is forcefully resisted and design is not allowed to be considered as an option. You may say that evolution is a fact of life, well so is intelligent design, and not just as an activity practiced by humans. Do you not think that swallow's nests, beaver's dams and termite mounds are intelligently designed? And who do you think resists the question of designer(s)? I will happily discuss my views of the designer(s) with you, and from what I have read, most ID are quite open about their beliefs about the designer(s). But this has little to do with ID as a scientific endeavour. Critics are desperate to keep ID tied to creationism because that way they feel justified in barring ID from the field of science. What you imagine to be resistance to the topic of designers is in fact you witnessing ID critics getting nowhere when they try to force the subject of designers into the science of ID. They get nowhere because the subject is not something that the ID advocate need concern himself/herself with.CharlieM
November 28, 2014
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Mjazzguitar, re: Who designed the designer? The Creator created time. Outside of time, there is no “before”. I know that. I agree. I am pro ID.logically_speaking
November 28, 2014
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Me_Think, Me: You didn’t answer the question to why you changed the word painter to created. You: Did I change painter to creator? My response: yes you did, when asked whether a self portrait by looking into a mirror creates an infinite regress you replied, "Yes. The painter has to be created by someone who needs to be created by someone". All this is the face of the obvious fact that no self portrait has ever actually created an infinite regress. You: I said Yes, because not everyone can be a painter. You need to teach and guide a child before he can become a painter , or ID has to create a preordained painter. I said painter has to be taught by someone or ID has to create the painter. My response: How much information needs to be imparted specifically for the child to become a painter? Can you please show your math? You: I didn’t change ‘Painter’ to ‘Creator’. My response: Of course you did, that's why you are talking about how painters are created, while I was talking about how painters are painted. You: You claim that you need to teach a child before they can paint. But why can’t a painting be created by natural forces? How much information needs to be imparted specifically for the child to become a painter? Can you please show your math? If you claim paintings are created by natural forces, it is you who needs to explain. I am curious why you think a manifestation of human creativity has to be explained by natural forces ? My response: I didn’t claim that natural forces CAN create a painting, I ASKED why CAN'T they, big difference. But then its interesting that you don't use your very own criteria for when you claim natural forces created for example molecular machines. Lets change a few words (because that seems ok to you) to make my point here, "If you claim MOLECULAR MACHINES are created by natural forces, it is you who needs to explain. I am curious why you think a manifestation of ANY creativity has to be explained by natural forces"? You: Was this child the original painter in the original question? How do I know ? It’s your question. You are entitled to think whatever you want.For me it doesn’t matter whether that child is painter in original question or not. My response: Actually the child is YOUR invention based on an extrapolation of YOUR original answer, YOU have to explain YOUR own imagination. You: Now I can imagine why metaphysics, or philosophy or whatever you call this discussion, is so exciting! My response: I agree, plus it's very interesting to see how your logic works, at the moment not so good. Ok lets see what we can make of all this so far. Your answer to my original question of who painted the painter now seems to be, a child who was taught to paint, painting a self portrait. Fine, now my follow up questions with my answers, 1. Does that make the painter a "Necessary being"? Yes it does. 2. Does it create an infinite regress? No it does not. Are you sure you don't want to start again?logically_speaking
November 28, 2014
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ZAC say, No, you did fine expressing your view. I say cool maybe I'm not understanding your request then What exactly are you looking for here? Your critique seems incoherent to me but I'm sure it's just poor reading comprehension on my part Peace ps I'm going to take a break for a while I'll get back to this when I canfifthmonarchyman
November 28, 2014
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Seems RDFish was just trolling. As for Zachriel, see vjt's latest OP. As far as handwaving, I assume that when people come here to UD and start handwaving that it must be their preferred method of communication and I should wave hands back. There's no point in treating nonsense as if it's a replacement for rational discussion and RDFish has been here long enough to know better.Mung
November 28, 2014
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Vishnu: I have no doubt about that the brain is the organ of thought, an interface of consciousness to spacetime, and the thing that determines what consciousness experiences. An interface to spacetime? Any evidence of this? Vishnu: We don’t know much about how the brain does what it does. It’s controversial. Most of the controversy seems to be philosophical, not scientific. Vishnu: My point is, the starting point of ID is implicitly ourselves. And the starting point in biology is the commonalities between human and non-human cognition. This technique of scientific inquiry has led to many scientific advances, while philosophical musing largely reached a deadend centuries ago.Zachriel
November 28, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: Hypothesis: Irreducibly Complex configurations are not computable You really should avoid using the term Irreducible Complexity as your use of the term is contrary to the established meaning. Your next two statements incorrectly use the word "premise". They are presumably the deductions from your hypothesis (premise). fifthmonarchyman: one: Irreducibly Complex configurations contain information beyond the sum of the information contained in their individual parts. (self evident from the definition of IC) That's not a deduction, but a restatement of your definition. Okay. fifthmonarchyman: two: This additional information is not accessible by algorithmic means. (self evident given the “transcendental/above the string” nature of the additional information) That's not a deduction, but a conclusion. You introduced a new term, transcendental, then claim without support that it is non-algorithmic. fifthmonarchyman: Maybe you could restate what you believe my point to be in your own words and then explain why you believe it is not valid. No, you did fine expressing your view. Your #one is not a deduction, but just a restatement. Your #two is not a proper deduction from the hypothesis.Zachriel
November 28, 2014
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Keiths @ 162: Sure, but why assume that the UFC is godlike?
Are you asking me why assume that the UFC is conscious and has powers of creation, such as the ability to make a universe and create life on at least one planet? If so, the question is beyond the scope of my statement, which deals with the philosophical parsimony of IR vs UFC. But to answer your question (for the hell of it), people have all kinds of reasons for holding this or that view of the UFC. I doubt this is the thread to start such a discussion.Vishnu
November 28, 2014
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Vishnu: Humans, obviously, have insight, foresight, and goals. We can “project” into the future in ways that natural laws are not understood to do. Maybe “natural law” (whatever the hell that is) is ultimately responsible, but if you make that affirmative claim then it’s up to you to demonstrate it. Zachriel: While there’s no ‘proof’, there is evidence that the brain is the seat of human consciousness, and that it works by physical principles.
I have no doubt about that the brain is the organ of thought, an interface of consciousness to spacetime, and the thing that determines what consciousness experiences. We don't know much about how the brain does what it does. It's controversial. (See Penrose, Hammeroff, and Chalmers. Yes, they have their detractors, but they have, IMO, successfully answered them.) How do you go from molecular networks to the subjective experience that you and I have of "blue", for example? Nobody knows what the hell consciousness is. It rightly deserved to be in a category by itself. Chalmers thinks consciousness is primary. So do I. Moreover, the entire brain does not appear to be directly associated with consciousness, only parts of it. Why only some parts and not others? What is special about the parts of the brain that are directly associated with consciousness? Nobody knows. Daniel Dennet essentially "explains" it by denying it exists. Some explanation. Maybe he's a zombie. I'm not sure what your reply has to do with my post. My point is, the starting point of ID is implicitly ourselves. We know we have powers of foresight and we know we can manipulate matter in ways unknown to "blind natural forces" as we understand and define them. It is natural for us to look at biological objects that appear designed and to question whether they were in fact designed or not. This is the proximate basis for ID. Blind evolutionary biology has by and large rejected this line of inquiry. And arbitrarily so.
Furthermore, computers models show that physical processes can model and project.
Quite right. And those computer models are endowed with their ability from humans. One candle kindling another, so to speak. What endowed human brains with their powers of foresight? If one asserts that blind naturalistic forces are capable of it, one has quite a challenge in demonstrating that. Of course, ID has its challenges too.Vishnu
November 28, 2014
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Zac say, state your hypothesis, then show the deduction that leads to your prediction., I say, Hypothesis: Irreducibly Complex configurations are not computable Deduction: Premise one: Irreducibly Complex configurations contain information beyond the sum of the information contained in their individual parts. (self evident from the definition of IC) Premise two: This additional information is not accessible by algorithmic means. (self evident given the "transcendental/above the string" nature of the additional information) Hope you understand. Not sure how many more ways I can express it. Maybe you could restate what you believe my point to be in your own words and then explain why you believe it is not valid. Or if you wish why you believe my prediction does not follow necessarily from my premises peacefifthmonarchyman
November 28, 2014
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69 logically_speaking re: Who designed the designer? The Creator created time. Outside of time, there is no "before".mjazzguitar
November 28, 2014
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Evolve in posting # 6 says: We have never observed any supernatural force tinkering with nature, past or present. There have been people who walk through fire, which ordinarily would be impossible to even approach, were it not for the intervention of a "god". Whether or not a real entity is involved could be debatable, but the fact remains that in some way the supernatural has "tinkered with nature".mjazzguitar
November 28, 2014
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And AGAIN: Seeing that we only look for an intelligent designer AFTER we have determined the existence of intelligent design, the argument that ID is lame because it does not identify the intelligent designer is lame at best and demonstrates ignorance with respect to investigative processes. Intelligent Design is about determining AND studying intelligent designs in nature. And guess what: Reality dictates that in the absence of direct observation the ONLY POSIBBLE way to make any scientific claims about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design(s) and all relevant evidence. That our opponents refuse to grasp that scientific fact demonstrates that they are on an anti-science crusade.Joe
November 28, 2014
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Evolution isn’t dumb luck.
Unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution is nothing but sheer dumb luck. Natural selection is impotent and doesn't do anything that would change that.Joe
November 28, 2014
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Zachriel:
But ID advocates never actually do that. Study it, that is. They conclude design and then stop.
That is your uneducated opinion. The ID hypothesis AGAIN: 1. High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2. Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3. Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4. Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.Joe
November 28, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: Get to work on an algorithm that can fool an observer and put it to the test How does that show that "certain features of the universe cannot ever be explained by means of any algorithmic cause"? Try this: state your hypothesis, then show the deduction that leads to your prediction., Mung: Four consecutive statements not one of which is true. False. (Hint: handwaving isn't much of an argument.) CharlieM: I haven’t proposed any designer for the flagellum. I merely commented on the design. If you claim something is an artifact, then there is a necessary chain of causation from the artifact to the art to the artisan. Quest: What I can’t comprehend about scientists’ inability to replicate the “simplest” of cells is that evolutionists believe that that dumb luck is smarter than the smartest of scientists in the field, who are working on RE-CREATING LIFE Evolution isn't dumb luck. fifthmonarchyman (quoting): So an artificial neural network is an elaborate process to implement a function determined by the network’s designer. Not sure what point you are making. An artificial neural network on a digital system is not actually an analog neural network as it only approximates real number variables. Querius: Let’s say you find a piece of obsidian with several conchoidal fractures. How would you determine intelligent design? By comparing it with other similar pieces of obsidian. Most fractures will be natural. If you propose the fractures were made artificially, we would look for a connection between the obsidians and the hypothesized designer, by studying the process by which the hypothesized designer may have made the fractures, searching for signs or remains of the designer, finding the left-over fragments, and possibly the purpose of the reshaping of the obsidians. The more obsidians we collect, the more evidence we have connecting the obsidians to a designer, the stronger our conclusion will be. http://www.bu.edu/today/2013/knapping-rocks/ Querius: All that ID advocates is that if something seems designed, study it as if it were. But ID advocates never actually do that. Study it, that is. They conclude design and then stop.Zachriel
November 28, 2014
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