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On the Magical Thinking Inherent in the New Atheism

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Our atheist friends delight in preening over their rejection of the “irrational” and “magic.”  Not so writes David Bentley Hart:

All of which is to say (to return to where I began) that it is absurd to think that one can profess atheism in any meaningful way without thereby assenting to an entire philosophy of being, however inchoate one’s sense of it may be. The philosophical naturalist’s view of reality is not one that merely fails to find some particular object within the world that the theist imagines can be descried there; it is a very particular representation of the nature of things, entailing a vast range of purely metaphysical commitments.

Principally, it requires that one believe that the physical order, which both experience and reason say is an ensemble of ontological contingencies, can exist entirely of itself, without any absolute source of actuality. It requires also that one resign oneself to an ultimate irrationalism: For the one reality that naturalism can never logically encompass is the very existence of nature (nature being, by definition, that which already exists); it is a philosophy, therefore, surrounded, permeated, and exceeded by a truth that is always already super naturam, and yet a philosophy that one cannot seriously entertain except by scrupulously refusing to recognize this.

It is the embrace of an infinite paradox: the universe understood as an “absolute contingency.” It may not amount to a metaphysics in the fullest sense, since strictly speaking it possesses no rational content—it is, after all, a belief that all things rest upon something like an original moment of magic—but it is certainly far more than the mere absence of faith.

Comments
JAD William Lane Craig defines magic as the belief that something can come into existence without a cause. I was making an ironical theoretical, and slightly sarcastic, flourish at the end of my point. I don't think "magic" is a useful term.mike1962
August 19, 2017
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CR @27: Seems to me that either God is a complex, knowledge laden entity which itself meets the criteria of needing to be explained via a designer (so you’ve just pushed the problem up a level without actually improving it) or you’re advocating the spontaneous creation of knowledge. Neither of which seem “rational” response. I think this is actually a perfectly valid objection to the usual theistic argument for creation. And I say this as a theist. This is the sort of objections that theists should seriously contemplate and resolve. We should ask ourselves, if God created everything, who created God? We can't just dismiss the problem by saying that God is "transcendental" and act as if we have a valid explanation. The word "transcendental" is excruciatingly unsatisfactory. It reminds me of the word "virtual" which physicists love to use to poof away nasty problems that they cannot solve. Or perhaps there is some third option you’ve like to present? Yes there is. I explained it in comment 16 above. It is not an explanation that most Christians will like because Christians normally repeat the same talking points they have traditionally been taught. But not all Christians are the same. Not all of us believe in an all-knowing, infinitely powerful creator. Some of us believe what the scriptures say and that when they refer to the creator Yahweh Elohim (literally, the Lords Yahweh) as the "ancient of days", it means exactly what it says. It means that, if Yahweh can be ancient, he/they must have been young at one point. IOW, Yahweh had a beginning, that is, his/their body must have had a beginning.ichisan
August 19, 2017
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rvb8 @20: I’m not a demon as I place demons in the same category as God; divine, above nature, non-corporeal. Because I don’t accept anything can exist beyond the ‘natural’ universe then ‘demons’ also fall into the fictional world of the supernatural. All demons love to talk about the natural universe even though they have no clue what that universe really is. What you see is not all there is. Whoever created the physical universe is more natural than the universe. The beauty and order of the universe are not physical properties. They are abstract or spiritual properties.ichisan
August 19, 2017
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CR said:
Furthermore, it’s a bad explanation. So I discard it.
Do you really not realize that everything you write is written in a syntax that presupposes justificationism? "Bad explanation"? We would all have to agree on some sort of assumed, arbiting basis for such a judgement to carry any interpersonal weight other than pure rhetoric. You rely on accessing the very thing you deny as valid (justificationism) in order for the terms you use, and how you arrange them, to carry any weight. Sort of like how atheists rely upon magic for their worldview even while denying it exists, and say things and make arguments as if the magic of supernatural free will exists, even while denying it does. You're just another biological automaton spitting out nonsense as if it had the capacity for reason.William J Murray
August 19, 2017
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CR:
Hart’s God is so abstract that it has no consequences.
Well, there is that whole "create the universe" thing. Some would call that consequential. CR apparently has an enormously high threshold for "consequential." CR, I really in all seriousness invite you to respond to Hart's argument. You have not so far, but I would really like to hear what you would have to say if, for once, you could leave all of your materialist grunting at the door.Barry Arrington
August 19, 2017
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So I am not the only one here who thinks that CR’s posts are vacuous? That’s a relief. I thought his thinking and writing might be way over my head-- well okay, not really. Sorry to be impolite and sarcastic but sometimes it’s just impossible not to be.john_a_designer
August 19, 2017
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@WJM
He fails to see the circular, ideological self-protection embedded in that statement. He is oblivious to it.
What are we protecting ourselves from? Heart's God is so abstract that it has no consequences. So, why do I feel threatened by it? Furthermore, it's a bad explanation. So I discard it.
Why would things “beyond nature” be “untestable”, especially when most people that believe in supernatural commodities hold that humans hold within us, as part of us, correlated and connected supernatural commodities? Surely we can test the spiritual by using our own spiritual abilities and senses?
Observations and experiences are theory laden. This include any tests which we might perform. For example, you cannot replace a lens in a microscope with a banana and expect to see bacteria. So, the results of that test is based on hard to vary, chain of independently formed explanations about how microscopes work, such as optics, geometry, neurology, etc. We accept the results only when they are necessarily setup in such a way that would obtain valid results. However, the supernatural is inexplicable by definition. To suggest otherwise is to have is something merely unseen or unknown. As such, any such test one might propose is a bad explanation for the result. This is because the results are only related to the cause directly by the claim itself. There is no necessary means by which any such result would be obtained. Nor is there any way to distinguish such a result from your own beliefs. You cannot easily vary the explanation for how a microscope works. It’s a hard to vary explanation for the phenomena in question. It cannot be easily varied without significantly reducing it’s ability to explain the phenomena in question, such as placing the sample above the lens, instead of below it, or replacing them lens with a penny, etc. But, in the case of the supernatural, you get results because “some supernatural being wanted it that way”, which is shallow and easily varied. Again, this is not to say that bad explanations might be true. But it would be very difficult to explain our relatively recent ability to make progress by preferring long chains of independently formed, hard to vary explanations about how the world works. See this TED talk for a more expanded version of this argument.
Until one can come to terms with the fact that the supernatural (non-contingent) must>/i> exist in order for the natural world of contingent things and events to exist, they will always have a worldview based on denial.
An inexplicable realm is indistinguishable from one with capricious ad-hoc magic, by very definition. No explanation about this supposed realm outside of our bubble of explicability can be better than "Zeus rules" there or basically anything else you might concoct. Furthermore, since you claim this inexplicable realm actually effects or is the foundation for the inside of this bubble (otherwise, we might as well do without it) the inside isn't actually explicable either. It would only seem that way if we carefully refrain from asking specific questions. So, this inexplicable realm is a bad explanation, which I discard. "I don't know" is a perfectly reasonable response.critical rationalist
August 19, 2017
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Barry at 28: “CR has nothing to say about Hart’s argument except to grunt at it” WJM at 29: “So, he seems to just be making noise” Now that’s funny.Barry Arrington
August 19, 2017
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I'm not sure how CR is answering the question about how he explains the existence of a contingent natural world without referring to a non-contingent source (uncaused cause). Did he just completely avoid the question? Did he throw out a bunch of straw man arguments about whether or not God had certain moral traits or was complex or simple? It's hard to figure out exactly what CR is saying - or even to care about it - because he doesn't seem to have any justification for anything he says. So, he seems to just be making noise (textually speaking) he hopes will affect others in some unspecified (and unjustifiable) way. Weird.William J Murray
August 19, 2017
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Time to fisk CR:
The response is to give up the quest for justification, because it’s impossible.
God help us. I assume that, like the rest of us, CR looks both ways when he crosses the street. Why does he bother? What could possibly justify any conclusion that the way is clear? I agree that if the goal is justification in an absolute sense, the goal is unattainable. But that is not the goal. CR’s criticism here is a straw man. No one suggested that belief in God is compelled in an absolute sense, including God himself as a perusal of Hebrews 11:6 will reveal. So, CR’s fierce beating of the straw man aside, what are we after? We are after the conclusion that is most plausible given reason and evidence. The conclusions “infinite regress of contingent beings” and “self-creation” are not even remotely plausible. CR ignores this not based on reason and evidence, but because it is not consonant with his materialist prejudices.
Seems to me that either God is a complex, knowledge laden entity which itself meets the criteria of needing to be explained via a designer (so you’ve just pushed the problem up a level without actually improving it) or you’re advocating the spontaneous creation of knowledge. Neither of which seem “rational” response.
Really? The necessary ground of all contingent being needs to be explained as if it were itself a contingent being? That’s all you’ve got? Sigh.
In contrast, Neo-Darwinism is the theory that the knowledge of how to build organisms was genuinely created via variation and criticism [blah blah blah about information].
Fail. We are not talking about biological origins. Did you not think we would notice this? Not going to let you hijack the thread with this digression.
Furthermore, as I’ve pointed out to UB, information exists in a storage medium. [blah blah blah]
Fail. We are not talking about information storage. Did you not think we would notice this?Not going to let you hijack the thread with this digression.
And, even if Hart’s God did exist, it doesn’t get you to Yahweh, Jesus, any specific moral knowledge. or anything that actually impacts any decisions that I might make in my day to day life. It could just as well be that Heart’s God will punish you for eternity of saying that two same sex marriages are is immoral.
Uh, OK. At least you are kind of tangentially back on topic. Good for you. As to your comment – no one ever said Hart’s argument, by itself, gets you to Yahweh or Jesus. Again, you are attacking a straw man.
So, Hart doesn’t squash the “which God” response because his God is so abstract that it has virtually no consciences.
Nonsense. The point of Hart’s argument is that there can be only one God who is defined as infinite actuality, the ground of all being. Therefore, it we are talking about that God, the question “which God” is literally meaningless. Your assertion otherwise is just that, an assertion. If you come up with an actual argument, please feel free to favor us with it.
Anything worth considering depends on “which God”, including one that finds homosexuality an abomination.
Another digressive straw man. You may be obsessed with whether the God Hart posits is politically correct on the issue of homosexuality. We are not. Again, if you have an argument that actually addresses the issues, please feel free to jump in here with it at any time.
The “explanation” that we have order because “That’s just what some designer must want” is a bad explanation. That’s because any such God that actively sustains and gives order, moment by moment, could simply “want” to stop doing so for some good reason we cannot understand.
Another strawman. Did you even read the OP? We are talking about materialist magical thinking – the idea that nature can explain nature. Hart argues that the materialist must posit an infinite regression or something from nothing, both of which are deeply irrational. Nothing you have written even addresses Hart’s argument, much less defeats it. Fail.
IOW, Heart’s God might be true, but I find it inconsequential. It doesn’t solve the problem it purports to solve. And it’s a bad explanation. So I discard it.
And you end with a few materialist grunts. Good for you. Let us summarize: After sorting out the straw men and digressions, CR has nothing to say about Hart's argument except to grunt at it. Sad. Barry Arrington
August 19, 2017
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I would agree that the issue is philosophical in nature, but not exactly new. The problems with justificationism are well known and have been for some time. IOW, theism is a specific example of justificationsm, which is irrational as, say, empiricism, which just exchanges one infallible source of knowledge, God, for another, human experience. The response is to give up the quest for justification, because it’s impossible. To quote Popper…
“I propose to assume … that all 'sources' are liable to lead us into error at times. …there are all kinds of sources of our knowledge; but none has authority… I propose to replace, therefore, the question of the sources of our knowledge by the entirely different question: "How can we hope to detect and eliminate error?"
What we want from theories are their content, not their providence. (And no, that’s not a typo) Basic beliefs are just beliefs for which we currently have no good criticisms. And there are good criticisms of the God described by Hart. Seems to me that either God is a complex, knowledge laden entity which itself meets the criteria of needing to be explained via a designer (so you’ve just pushed the problem up a level without actually improving it) or you’re advocating the spontaneous creation of knowledge. Neither of which seem “rational” response. Or perhaps there is some third option you’ve like to present? In contrast, Neo-Darwinism is the theory that the knowledge of how to build organisms was genuinely created via variation and criticism. For all we know, earth could have been the very first place in which that knowledge appeared. So, there is no infinite regress in respect to the knowledge found in the genome of organisms. This is why I keep saying that creationism is actually creation denial, as it denies that creation actually took place. But don’t take my word for it. Your own answers to following questions should suffice. Q: Would you say that God knows what transformations of matter are necessary to build any organism that has, does and could exist? Q: Has God always possessed this knowledge? Q: Has God aways existed? If you answer “Yes” to all of these questions, you deny that the instructions of which transformations of matter cells use to build copies of themselves is genuinely new. It always existed. It’s the same sort of bad explanation for that knowledge as the following: if God created the universe at the precise moment that Einstein, or any other great scientist appeared to have completed their major discovery, the actual creator of that discovery would not have been that scientist, but God. So, such a theory would deny the only creation that actually did take place. Both are represent creation denial. So, in respect to the biosphere, creationism’s explanation for that knowledge is supernatural. ID’s explanation for that knowledge is absent. And, In the case of inductivism, the explanation for the growth of knowledge is irrational. Furthermore, as I’ve pointed out to UB, information exists in a storage medium. We have no definition of non-material information for which a non-material designer could possess. Copying information to a storage medium requires a reversible computation, which means there is a material source. So it’s unclear how a non-complex, non-material designer copied that information into the genomes of organisms it created. It would be as if Microsoft Word spontaneously appeared on a USB thumb drive when it came of the manufacturing line. Again, this would be the spontaneous generation of knowledge. Is this rational? And, even if Hart’s God did exist, it doesn’t get you to Yahweh, Jesus, any specific moral knowledge. or anything that actually impacts any decisions that I might make in my day to day life. It could just as well be that Heart’s God will punish you for eternity of saying that two same sex marriages are is immoral. So, Heart doesn’t squash the “which God” response because his God is so abstract that it has virtually no consciences. Anything worth considering depends on "which God", including one that finds homosexuality an abomination. The “explanation” that we have order because “That’s just what some designer must want” is a bad explanation. That’s because any such God that actively sustains and gives order, moment by moment, could simply "want" to stop doing so for some good reason we cannot understand. IOW, Heart’s God might be true, but I find it inconsequential. It doesn’t solve the problem it purports to solve. And it’s a bad explanation. So I discard it.critical rationalist
August 19, 2017
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Seversky @ 8:
Is there any reason to believe in an eternal God other than the philosophical necessity of such an entity to account for our contingent Universe if we are to avoid an infinite regress of cause and effect? The Christian God is usually regarded as a conscious, intelligent being whatever His other properties. The only conscious, intelligent beings of which we have any knowledge are ourselves but we are far from being omniscient or eternal. So, while we cannot exclude God as a possibility, given the vastly greater evidence for the explanatory power of naturalism, which is the more rational belief?
And here: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/fft-charles-unmasks-the-anti-id-trollish-tactic-of-attacking-god-christian-values-and-worldview-themes/#comment-629889 when confronted with evidence for God that Seversky can not disprove, Seversky whines that as an atheist he will criticize and examine evidence, and yet all Seversky does is criticize. When confronted with the proof that his "hoax" theory is without merit or evidence, Seversky admits he doubts his own theory, but doubles down and persists in the very theory he doubts, he can not prove, and which theory is regardless entirely irrelevant to the demonstrated proof of God's existence. Seversky examines neither what he criticizes nor his own credulity, and goes radio silent thereafter when confronted with his hypocrisy. The unexamined, self-doubted, irrational belief is all Seversky's. The philosophical necessity of unproven magical naturalism is all Severky's. Who holds the more rational belief???Charles
August 19, 2017
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BY DEFINITION BEYOND NATURE
NATURE DOESNT HAVE A SCIENTIFIC DEFINITION Andrewasauber
August 19, 2017
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What we can ask is this: if the Universe was created by God and it was not a natural process then what is divine Creation other than “…an original moment of magic…”? So tell me who is indulging in magical beliefs?
We know what causes magic, so I don't mind someone accusing me of believing in magic.Mung
August 19, 2017
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This is the reason I tend to think many people are non-sentient biological automatons. Seversky might as well have just responded with, "I don't know and I don't care." That's really the short version. rvb8 offers one of the most insipid lines of circular "argument" ever, appropriately using all caps (I imagine his fingers in his ears as he repeats the following loudly):
That is because, and I can’t stress this enough, SUPERNATURALISM, IS, UNTESTIBLE BECAUSE IT IS BY DEFINITION BEYOND NATURE!
He fails to see the circular, ideological self-protection embedded in that statement. He is oblivious to it. Why would things "beyond nature" be "untestable", especially when most people that believe in supernatural commodities hold that humans hold within us, as part of us, correlated and connected supernatural commodities? Surely we can test the spiritual by using our own spiritual abilities and senses? "Untestable" by what? One would assume rvb8 is talking about science, but science has tested supernatural commodities for centuries - gravity, entropy, inertia, electromagnetism, etc., and more recently various features of quantum physics. Creating a model of how a supernatural commodity affects the physical universe and giving it a name that doesn't sound supernatural doesn't make whatever is causing the effect natural. Logically, that which causes the framework of behaviors and interactive patterns we define as "the natural world" cannot itself be part of that natural world - that would mean that something is causing itself to happen. Mr. Arrington has pointed this out - whatever is causing the behavioral patterns we collectively call "nature" is not itself part of nature. Perhaps what rvb8 means is that a methodology (materialist science) which refuses to recognize the supernatural cannot test for the supernatural. I guess in a strict semantic sense that would be correct. However, it's still just sticking your head in the sand to ignore what is staring you in the face both evidentially and logically; something is causing what we call "nature". Nature is not causing itself. Therefore, the supernatural exists. Until one can come to terms with the fact that the supernatural (non-contingent) must>/i> exist in order for the natural world of contingent things and events to exist, they will always have a worldview based on denial.William J Murray
August 19, 2017
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Arrington's point is well put, but Sev's point is dealing with our confidence in the things we know based on how we know them. Naturalistic conclusions from physics etc. have an extremely high degree of certainty, because we can empirically test the conclusion. Philosophical arguments dealing with the problem of infinite regress have a lower sense of certainty, at least in the mind of many, because while the argument sounds pretty good it seems there could be a mistake in the logic that someone has not identified yet. As an example, for a long time people believed in the ether because it made sense that there must be an absolute frame of reference. Now we know the theory of ether is false through empirical tests. Likewise the infinite regress argument makes a lot of sense, but without some kind of empirical confirmation the argument sits in the grey area of plausible sounding but possibly false like ether. Based on the greater degree of uncertainty, people can either choose to accept the argument because it's easy to articulate and no alternative is forthcoming, or they can hold out for some kind of empirical component to increase the level of certainty as the atheists like Sev do. If there is no empirical aspect to the argument, then someone like Sev with a higher certainty threshold will fail to be convinced, and he'll extend the fact the argument cannot convince him to the whole scheme of such philosophical arguments that lack empiricism. This scheme tends to encompass the traditional arguments for God, soul, after life and various supernatural entities. So, if Arrington responds that Sev must accept an incomprehensible worldview if he denies God, Sev simply responds he does not know those are the only two alternatives due to lack of empirical data to discriminate either way. This is the more general problem that ID faces that tends to place it in the philosophy camp instead of the science camp. ID needs to back up its claims with clear empirical theories and models to move out of being potentially another ether type theory that sounds plausible but could possibly be empirically falsified down the road.EricMH
August 19, 2017
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Excellent Barry Arrington! Sev and other atheists believe in a magic circle. "I believe in nature as the cause of nature." Cue Elton John: Can you feel the love tonight? https://youtu.be/Y1hcc1QvM2QFlorabama
August 19, 2017
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ichisan @19, I'm not a demon as I place demons in the same category as God; divine, above nature, non-corporeal. Because I don't accept anything can exist beyond the 'natural' universe then 'demons' also fall into the fictional world of the supernatural. Also, I like puppies.:)rvb8
August 19, 2017
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rvb8: I know He said, ‘I am that I am’, but meaningless tautology only satisfies the credulous. I knew it. rvb8 is a demon just as I thought. LOL.ichisan
August 19, 2017
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j_a_d @4, In answer to your first question I say, 'How did God originate from absolute nothig?' I know He said, 'I am that I am', but meaningless tautology only satisfies the credulous. Your second question begs the retort, 'couldn't God have 'fine tuned' it a little better? Such flagrant waste of space, and raw materials.' Your third question seems to forget that upon our deaths we go back to the 'non-life' molecules that created, (heh:) us. The faxt that we know our 'ingredients', and where those 'ingredients' originated, (stars), suggests atheists understand this question far better than the religious. Your nest two questions are similar and I will answer both at once; the science and research is on going, the results are amazing, and the science is wonderful. As IDers sit baxk and twiddle their thumbs at the jaw dropping complexity of life, scientists are busily unravelling this complexity and reaching amazing conclusions; nowhere in their research is 'supernaturalism' even vaguely thought of as a process worhty of investigation. That is because, and I can't stress this enough, SUPERNATURALISM, IS, UNTESTIBLE BECAUSE IT IS BY DEFINITION BEYOND NATURE! You conclude with your own silly invention, 'naturalist miracles' Ah-huh; try understanding the word 'oxymoron', and that takes care of that.rvb8
August 19, 2017
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mike1962 @ 11,
Well, it is magic in the sense that whatever is responsible for the universe is utterly and completely beyond human reason. It is “other.” Your imagination and intellectual processes are of no value in this question. You are hereby humbled. Get used to it. Period. If you want to call that magic, I won’t object.
I disagree. Theists do not believe in magic. William Lane Craig defines magic as the belief that something can come into existence without a cause. Classical theism on the other posits an eternally existing transcendent mind as the cause of every contingent thing which exists, including the universe. So again, we do not believe that the universe came into existence by “magic,” there was a cause. The very first part of the following video illustrates what Craig defines by miracle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CulBuMCLg0&list=PL3gdeV4Rk9EfL-NyraEGXXwSjDNeMaRoX&index=1john_a_designer
August 18, 2017
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Seversky: Speaking as an atheist, I am happy to concede that I have no idea what caused the Universe to come into existence and neither does anyone else as far as I can tell. Well, I have an idea and so do a few other thinkers, day dreamers and philosophers. We live in a Yin-Yang reality. That is, reality consists of two opposite or complementary sides or realms, if you wish. On the one hand, there is the physical realm which consists of entities that can be created and destroyed (from nothing). On the other hand, there is the spiritual or creator realm which consists of entities that can neither be destroyed nor created. The spiritual entities just are. They consist of abstract (non-physical) ideas like order, disorder, beauty, ugliness, consciousness, colors, pain, pleasure, distance, etc. The spiritual entities are not intelligent of themselves but can create myriads of ordered physical entities. Over deep time, they can create all sorts of material particles, systems of particles, brains, universes, etc. I personally believe that the Gods created themselves, i.e., their bodies, over eons of trial and error. It was not a random but orderly search. They eventually became so powerful and advanced as to appear as infinitely powerful beings to us when we look at the size and complexity of the universe.ichisan
August 18, 2017
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@ET: What appears as magic is just an event that is beyond our (current) comprehension. And that is just another reason why IS focuses on the Intelligent DESIGN. Well said. A creator God is not magic. The supernatural is even more natural than the physical universe because it precedes the universe and created it.ichisan
August 18, 2017
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ronvanwegen @ 7
john_a_designer: Thinking of starting a blog are you? Here, let me give you a taste of what that will be like; “Shut-up you racist bigot”. There, welcome to the blog world!
The way major Web services like Google are doubling down on political correctness even a false accusation like that will be enough, in the not too distant future, to get someone like me blocked or banned from the internet. Welcome, to 1984. Big Brother is watching you.john_a_designer
August 18, 2017
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Let’s fisk Sev.
Atheism is, at its simplest, a lack of belief in a given god or gods. It does not necessarily entail a belief in a naturalistic cause for the Universe.
Of course not. A “naturalistic” cause of nature is incoherent. The atheist is left exactly where Hart says he is: Positing an infinite regress of contingent being causing contingent being. Another word for that: magic.
Speaking as an atheist, I am happy to concede that I have no idea what caused the Universe to come into existence and neither does anyone else as far as I can tell. I suspect many atheists would agree with me.
Yes, you are correct. Most atheists stick their head in the sand to avoid the conclusions compelled by their premises, just as Hart says.
Where we do all agree, however, is in holding that the various arguments and evidences offered in support of the existence of various gods are unpersuasive.
So you did not actually follow the link. If you had, you would have found that Hart disposes of the “various gods” canard with ease. How deeply uncurious of you.
naturalistic theories of scientists such as Newton, Maxwell and Einstein.
Ah, two deeply committed Christians and a pantheist in the manner of Spinoza.
Is there any reason to believe in an eternal God other than the philosophical necessity of such an entity to account for our contingent Universe if we are to avoid an infinite regress of cause and effect
Yes, there are numerous reasons to believe in God. But the one you mention is independently sufficient – unless you want to go on with your magical thinking.
given the vastly greater evidence for the explanatory power of naturalism, which is the more rational belief?
Sorry Sev. Just ignoring Hart’s argument does not meet it. Naturalism, by definition, cannot explain nature. Far from being supported by greater evidence as a cause of nature, it is not supported – and can never be supported – by any evidence whatsoever.
As an atheist, I repeat that I regard the problem of origins as an open question.
I will translate from atheist speak: I have no answer to Hart. I will stick my head in the sand.
It is both honest and rational to say “I don’t know”.
Unless you do know. And you, along with everyone else, know that nature cannot explain nature.
what is divine Creation other than “…an original moment of magic
Nothing whatsoever. When the necessary being created contingent nature, it was a completely supernatural event. You can call that magic if you want and I won’t argue with you. The difference does not lie in whether magic was involved. The difference lies in the nature of the magic invoked. Nature was created by something beyond itself. That is a rational position to hold. “Nature created itself” or “infinite regress of contingent beings” are both deeply irrational. The difference is not whether one side invokes magic or not. Both surely do. The difference is that atheist magic is a “square circle” logically impossible sort of magic. And for that very reason most atheists do exactly what you’ve done in this thread when confronted with their belief – they stick their head in the sand. Contrast the logically incoherent conclusions compelled by your premises (no matter how much you run from them chanting “I don’t know! I don’t know!”) with the perfectly logical – indeed inescapable – conclusion that since nature cannot account for itself, something beyond nature must be posited to account for it.Barry Arrington
August 18, 2017
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@seversky, You define an atheist as part atheist, part agnostic. That aside, You do not believe in the existence of God, Why not?Belfast
August 18, 2017
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Seversky: What we can ask is this: if the Universe was created by God and it was not a natural process then what is divine Creation other than “…an original moment of magic…”? Well, it is magic in the sense that whatever is responsible for the universe is utterly and completely beyond human reason. It is "other." Your imagination and intellectual processes are of no value in this question. You are hereby humbled. Get used to it. Period. If you want to call that magic, I won't object.mike1962
August 18, 2017
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Devil's Advocate-
How did the universe originate from absolute nothing?
The singularity wasn't "nothing".
Why does the universe appear to be fine-tuned for life, including advanced intelligent life?
Yeah, it's so "fine-tuned" that we are the only inhabitants (that we know of).ET
August 18, 2017
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Seversky:
What we can ask is this: if the Universe was created by God and it was not a natural process then what is divine Creation other than “…an original moment of magic…”?
Clarke's 3 Laws:
#3- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
What appears as magic is just an event that is beyond our (current) comprehension. And that is just another reason why IS focuses on the Intelligent DESIGN.ET
August 18, 2017
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Principally, it requires that one believe that the physical order, which both experience and reason say is an ensemble of ontological contingencies, can exist entirely of itself, without any absolute source of actuality. It requires also that one resign oneself to an ultimate irrationalism: For the one reality that naturalism can never logically encompass is the very existence of nature (nature being, by definition, that which already exists); it is a philosophy, therefore, surrounded, permeated, and exceeded by a truth that is always already super naturam, and yet a philosophy that one cannot seriously entertain except by scrupulously refusing to recognize this.
I am disappointed. I expected something better than this from someone of Hart's reputation. Atheism is, at its simplest, a lack of belief in a given god or gods. It does not necessarily entail a belief in a naturalistic cause for the Universe. Speaking as an atheist, I am happy to concede that I have no idea what caused the Universe to come into existence and neither does anyone else as far as I can tell. I suspect many atheists would agree with me. Where we do all agree, however, is in holding that the various arguments and evidences offered in support of the existence of various gods are unpersuasive. The Scottish philosopher David Hume wrote:
In our reasonings concerning matter of fact, there are all imaginable degrees of assurance, from the highest certainty to the lowest species of moral evidence. A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence
We observe an ordered Universe, even if we currently have no adequate explanation for the source of that order. By trial and error we have developed a few explanations for parts of that order based on naturalistic assumptions which work very well, at least up to a point. As I've noted before, practically all of the technology we take for granted, such as the computers we are using or our ability to send spacecraft to distant planets, are all founded on the naturalistic theories of scientists such as Newton, Maxwell and Einstein. Taking Hume's advice, it would be irrational not to believe in the power of naturalistic explanations given their success rate so far. What Hart does not address, at least not in the passages quoted in the OP, is that the same arguments he raises against belief in naturalistic explanations can also be urged against theistic ones. Is there any reason to believe in an eternal God other than the philosophical necessity of such an entity to account for our contingent Universe if we are to avoid an infinite regress of cause and effect? The Christian God is usually regarded as a conscious, intelligent being whatever His other properties. The only conscious, intelligent beings of which we have any knowledge are ourselves but we are far from being omniscient or eternal. So, while we cannot exclude God as a possibility, given the vastly greater evidence for the explanatory power of naturalism, which is the more rational belief?
It is the embrace of an infinite paradox: the universe understood as an “absolute contingency.” It may not amount to a metaphysics in the fullest sense, since strictly speaking it possesses no rational content—it is, after all, a belief that all things rest upon something like an original moment of magic—but it is certainly far more than the mere absence of faith.
As an atheist, I repeat that I regard the problem of origins as an open question. It is both honest and rational to say "I don't know". What we can ask is this: if the Universe was created by God and it was not a natural process then what is divine Creation other than "...an original moment of magic..."? So tell me who is indulging in magical beliefs?Seversky
August 18, 2017
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