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On the nature and detection of intelligence: A reply to RDFish

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In a series of recent posts, RDFish has made several penetrating criticisms of the Intelligent Design project, which can be summarized as follows:

(i) the ID project does not currently possess an operational definition of “intelligence” which is genuinely informative and at the same time, suitable for use in scientific research;

(ii) the explanatory filter used by the Intelligent Design community assumes that intelligence is something distinct from law and/or chance – in other words, it commits itself in advance to a belief in contra-casual libertarian free will (the view that when intelligent agents make a decision, they are always capable of acting otherwise), a view which is appealing to “common sense,” but which is highly controversial on both scientific and philosophical grounds;

(iii) the inference to Intelligent Design as an explanation is tantamount to an argument from ignorance: if something cannot be explained by either chance or necessity, it is automatically assumed to be the result of intelligence – a questionable assumption, as there are alternative teleological explanations for the specified complexity that we find in living things, which do not require intelligence;

(iv) any attempt to infer the existence of an Intelligent Designer of the specified complexity that we observe in Nature can be nullified by an equally valid counter-inference: since all of the intelligent designers that we have ever encountered are physical agents which are incapable of thinking in the absence of complex, highly specified, functional interactions between their body parts, we may legitimately conclude that Intelligence can never serve as an Ultimate Explanation for all of the functional specified complexity that we find in Nature. Any Intelligent Designer would have to be a complex, embodied being.

(i) On the definition of “intelligence”

The New Caledonian crow is capable of making hooks with its beak, in order to obtain food. Does that make it intelligent? Image courtesy of John Gerrard Keulemans (Catalogue of the Birds in the British Museum) and Wikipedia.

Why it’s not enough to define intelligence in terms of its effects

I put forward a definition of “intelligence” in the final part of my recent post, On not doing one’s homework: A reply to Professor Edward Feser. In that post, I argued that the attempt to define intelligence in terms of the ability to pursue long-term goals, or even to direct suitable means towards those long-term goals, fails to account for one vital feature of intelligence – namely, the fact that it necessarily involves grasping the form, or essential “whatness,” of a thing:

What does it mean for a being to be intelligent? At first, we might attempt to define “intelligence” in terms of one’s ability to pursue goals – especially long-term goals, which require foresight. But the mere ability to pursue goals does not make a being intelligent: even inanimate objects can be said to do that, insofar as they act in certain determinate ways, yet we say that they act blindly and not intelligently. Nor will it do to define “intelligence” as the ability to pursue long-term goals, as such a definition sheds no light on that whereby a being is capable of attaining these goals. One still wants to know: why are some beings capable of pursuing long-term goals, while others are not?

Could we perhaps define intelligence in terms of the ability to direct means towards certain ends? This sounds more promising. In their book, “The Design of Life” (2008, Foundation for Thought and Ethics, Dallas), Professor William Dembski and Dr. Jonathan Wells define “intelligence” as “any cause, agent, or process that achieves and end or goal by employing suitable means or instruments“(page 3), and on page 315, Dembski and Wells define intelligence in more detail, as “A type of cause, process or principle that is able to find, select, adapt, and implement the means needed to effectively bring about ends (or achieve goals or realize purposes). Because intelligence is about matching means to ends, it is inherently teleological.” …

While the attempt to define “intelligence” in terms of means and ends is genuinely illuminating, it still suffers from one defect: it overlooks form… [For example,] a knife is for cutting, but this definition does not tell us whether a knife has only a single handle, or a blade connected to a handle at both ends. Nor does it tell us whether a knife has only a single blade or multiple blades, as a Swiss army knife does. Finally, the cutting function of a knife cannot tell us whether the blade is straight, L-shaped or even D-shaped, as blades with any of these shapes could still cut well enough. The end alone, then, does not determine the form.

Since a thing’s ends do not determine its form, which makes it the kind of thing it is, we must conclude that the ability to grasp a thing’s ends, and even to direct it through various means towards those ends, does not constitute the nature of intelligence as such. For whatever else “intelligence” means, it surely refers to the ability to grasp a thing’s form or its essential “whatness.”

The same criticisms apply to attempts to define “intelligence” as “whatever it is that generates large amounts of functional, complex, specified information.” This definition is at least minimally informative, in that it tells us that something generates the information. But it is, nevertheless, a flawed definition. Defining an activity or process in terms of its effects tells us nothing about what that activity or process is. All it tells us it what the activity or process generates, which isn’t the same thing at all.

Why intelligence cannot be defined in terms of its ability to grasp the forms of natural objects

Accordingly, some philosophers have attempted to define “intelligence” in terms of the mind’s ability to receive or grasp the forms which characterize different kinds of natural objects – a definition which I find unsatisfactory, for reasons that I explained in my recent post:

For the act of understanding a concept cannot simply be defined as the “receiving” of a form – even a universal one. A key feature of concepts is that they are inherently normative. To entertain a concept of a certain kind of thing is to follow a rule which defines how we should think about that kind of thing. For instance, when I refer to a particle as having a positive electric charge, I thereby acknowledge that it has a disposition to attract negatively charged objects and to repel positively charged ones. Those are the rules that define the way we think about positive electric charges, and we agree to follow those rules whenever we talk about electricity. None of the commonly used spatial metaphors for intelligence can capture the act of following a rule.

Thus we cannot define intelligence in terms of an ability to “receive” abstract, universal forms, or to “contain” these forms, or to be in “immediate contact”with these forms, or to “extract” these forms, or to “grasp” these forms. Receiving, containing, touching, extracting and grasping are not rule-following activities as such. They are spatial metaphors for intelligence, but they do not capture its very essence.

Why language is integral to the definition of intelligence

I then argued that any proper definition of “intelligence” has to include the ability to express one’s thoughts in language:

Thirteen years ago, while I was training to be a mathematics teacher, I overheard a teacher explaining to a colleague of hers why she insisted that her students should show their workings when solving a mathematical problem. She remarked: “If they really understand how to solve the problem, then they should be able to explain why they solved the problem in that particular way. If they can’t, then they don’t really understand.” The teacher’s remark struck me as an insightful one. It encapsulates my reasons for being skeptical regarding claims that the much-vaunted tool-making abilities of crows, whose jaw-dropping feats have been in the news lately, demonstrate a capacity for reasoning on their part. It also illustrates that the definition of intelligence is necessarily bound up with the ability to express one’s thoughts in language.

The crucial point here is that the crows are unable to explain the basis of their judgments, as a rational agent should be able to do. The tool-making feats of Betty the crow look impressive, but we cannot ask her: “Why did you make it that way?” as she is incapable of justifying her actions…

What I am proposing in this post is that the act of understanding a natural object can only be characterized by the ability to specify the concept of that object, and the rules that define its form or essence, in language. This specification has to include a complete description of its “whatness” (or substantial form), as well as its built-in “ends” (finality). Not for nothing do we say: “In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1).

An objection from RDFish: how could we ever be sure that an Intelligent Designer possesses a capacity for language?

A diagram illustrating the genetic code, according to the “central dogma”, where DNA ic copied to RNA, which is used to make proteins. Shown here are the first few amino acids for the alpha subunit of hemoglobin. The sixth amino acid (glutamic acid, depicted by the symbol “E”) is mutated in sickle cell anemia versions of the hemoglobin molecule. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

At this point, RDFish raises a very reasonable objection. What scientific evidence could we ever have, he asks, that the Intelligent Designer of life possesses the ability to explain His reasons for acting as he did, using language? The answer, as I wrote in my earlier post, is that we can already find evidence of the Designer’s linguistic abilities within living things themselves: they not only contain a digital code, but programs as well:

If each cell in an organism can be accurately described as running a set of programs, written in various programming languages, then since language is a “signature trait” of intelligent beings, it follows that these phenomena obviously require an Intelligent Being to produce them.

Dr. Stephen Meyer has written extensively about the digital code that we find in living things, in his highly acclaimed book, Signature in the Cell. The existence of digital code in living things points to their having had a Designer Who is capable of using language to describe their essential characteristics. But there’s more.

On April 8, 2010, Dr. Don Johnson, who has both a Ph.D. in chemistry and a Ph.D. in computer and information sciences, gave a presentation entitled Bioinformatics: The Information in Life for the University of North Carolina Wilmington chapter of the Association for Computer Machinery. Dr. Johnson’s presentation is now on-line here. Both the talk and accompanying handout notes can be accessed from Dr. Johnson’s Web page. Dr. Johnson spent 20 years teaching in universities in Wisconsin, Minnesota, California, and Europe. Here’s an excerpt from his presentation blurb:

Each cell of an organism has millions of interacting computers reading and processing digital information using algorithmic digital programs and digital codes to communicate and translate information.

On a slide entitled “Information Systems In Life,” Dr. Johnson points out that:

  • the genetic system is a pre-existing operating system;
  • the specific genetic program (genome) is an application;
  • the native language has a codon-based encryption system;
  • the codes are read by enzyme computers with their own operating system;
  • each enzyme’s output is to another operating system in a ribosome;
  • codes are decrypted and output to tRNA computers;
  • each codon-specified amino acid is transported to a protein construction site; and
  • in each cell, there are multiple operating systems, multiple programming languages, encoding/decoding hardware and software, specialized communications systems, error detection/correction systems, specialized input/output for organelle control and feedback, and a variety of specialized “devices” to accomplish the tasks of life.

To sum up: the use of the word “program” to describe the workings of the cell is scientifically respectable. It is not just a figure of speech. It is literal.

Intelligent Design theory, then, demonstrates in a striking way how it is possible to speak of the Designer of life and the cosmos as being truly intelligent, in a meaningful sense of the word. Such a Designer can legitimately be described as an Intelligent Being.

Since it is certainly possible for scientists to examine an object and look for evidence that it contains a digital code or a program, I would argue that the foregoing definition of “intelligence” is scientifically workable as well.

Too strong a definition?

Chaos Computer Club used a model of the 2001 monolith at the Hackers at Large camp site. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

It might be objected that the definition of “intelligence” which I am proposing is too restrictive, since we can easily identify an object as designed, even in cases when we possess neither a blueprint nor a recipe for the production of that object – which suggests that a demonstration of the Designer’s capacity to use language is not essential to warrant an imputation of design. For example, we can tell that a knife is designed for cutting, just by observing its sharp blade and straight edge, and the oft-cited example of the “monolith on the Moon” in the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey shows that we can confidently identify an object as designed, without knowing anything about the reasons, purposes and intentions of its maker.

In reply, I would point out that the design attribution in the fictional case of the lunar monolith was warranted by virtue of the fact that its dimensions were in the precise ratio of 1 : 4 : 9 (the squares of the first three integers) – an astronomically unlikely outcome for any unguided process. To explain the significance of this ratio, we need to employ the language of mathematics.

As regards the example of the knife: there are mathematical features of a knife blade (e.g. its straightness) which also suggest design. We can then Professor Dembski’s explanatory filter to these features, in order to rule out alternative explanations for these features (law and/or chance). In the case of a knife, the imputation of design is less certain than in the case of the lunar monolith, as there are natural processes which are capable of generating straight edges and sharp blades, whereas there are no known processes which are capable of generating the squares of the first three integers in the dimensions of a block of stone.

“But,” it may be objected, “wouldn’t we still be warranted in ascribing a highly complex arrangement of functional parts to a process of intelligent design, even if we were unable to describe the function of these parts in mathematical terms? Surely we don’t have to know the mathematics behind the optical functioning of the eye, in order to see that it was designed?”

The answer to this objection is that it is the specification that describes the function of the complex system which warrants our imputation of design in instances like these. Because the system possesses specified complexity, its function can be described succinctly, in relatively few words. This linguistic description, when combined with the successful application of Professor Dembski’s explanatory filter, gives us confidence that the system in question was indeed designed. What I would add, however, is that not only the function of the system but also its form (in this case, the arrangement of the parts) must be specifiable in human language, before we can be truly certain that the system was designed. I would also suggest that on some level, the form of an object must be capable of being concisely described, if the object in question is genuinely a designed object.

We can see, then, that the additional “language” requirement which I am proposing is hardly an onerous one, and that systems exhibiting functional specified complexity should be able to satisfy this requirement. A fortiori, we can be all the more certain that an object such as a living cell, whose form can not only be specified in language, but also described in terms of a digital code (encoded in the DNA of all living things) as well as a genetic program (which governs that cell’s development into a mature organism), is indeed a designed object.

(ii) Does Intelligent Design theory commit itself at the outset to a belief in contra-causal libertarian free will?

The International Space Station on 23 May 2010, as seen from the departing Space Shuttle Atlantis during space shuttle mission flight STS-132. Barry Arrington has argued, in a post titled, Put Up or Shut Up!, that regardless of whether or not intelligence is reducible to law plus chance, it still possesses certain hallmarks, which enable us to identify it and distinguish it from other processes. He then cited the space station as an example of an object which possesses abundant indicators of having been designed. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

RDFish objects that the explanatory filter used by the Intelligent Design community assumes that intelligence is something distinct from law and/or chance – in other words, it commits itself in advance to a belief in contra-casual libertarian free will. If RDFish had read my 2011 post, The four tiers of Intelligent Design – an ecumenical proposal, he would have seen the solution to his difficulties. In that post, I quoted from an earlier post by Barry Arrington, titled, Put Up or Shut Up!, in which Mr. Arrington argued as follows:

Let us assume for the sake of argument that intelligent agents do NOT have free will, i.e., that the tertium quid does not exist. Let us assume instead, for the sake of argument, that the cause of all activity of all intelligent agents can be reduced to physical causes.

Mr. Arrington contended that even if we make this assumption, for the sake of argument, we can still make legitimate design inferences. As he put it in an earlier post, titled, ID Does Not Posit Supernatural Causes:

For those, such as Aristotle, who believe free will exists, “agency” is a tertium quid (a third thing) beyond chance and necessity. The metaphysical materialist on the other hand must deny the existence of free will. For the materialist, what we perceive as free will or agency is an illusion, the complex interplay of the electro-chemical processes of our brain, which are in turn caused by chance and necessity only.

But the discussion needn’t break down here, because everyone should agree that whether intelligent agents have free will or not, they do in fact leave distinctive indicia of their activities. Did the engineers who designed the space station have free will or where they compelled to design the space station by purely electro-chemical reactions in their brain that can be reduced to the interplay of chance and necessity? For our purposes here it does not matter how one answers this question, because however one answers the question, it is certainly the case that the space station was designed by an intelligent agent. And it is certainly the case that the intelligent agents who designed the space station left indicia of their design by which an observer can distinguish it from asteroids and other satellites of the Earth that were not designed by intelligent agents.

The point is that for our purposes here, we need not argue about whether intelligent agents such as humans have an immaterial free will. Whether free will exists or not, it cannot be reasonably disputed that intelligent agents leave discernible indicia of their activity.

The foregoing passage should suffice to answer RDFish’s objection. Even if one views intelligence as being ultimately the product of law and chance (as materialists do), it still remains the case that intelligent agency has certain distinguishing marks (or indicia) which enable scientists to identify it as such.

In my 2011 post, The four tiers of Intelligent Design – an ecumenical proposal, I also elucidated the role of Professor Dembski’s explanatory filter, by drawing a distinction between proximate and ultimate causes:

At this point, we need to distinguish between proximate and indirect causes, and among indirect causes, we finally need to go back to the ultimate cause. The explanatory filter applies to proximate causes. It can tell us that whatever produced an alien artifact, for instance, must have been an intelligent agent. Likewise, it can tell us that the Being who produced the first living cell in the observable universe must have been intelligent. However, the explanatory filter says nothing about ultimate causes. The explanatory filter alone cannot tell us whether the ultimate cause of a pattern manifesting complex specified information is intelligent or not.

I might observe in passing that as a matter of strict logic, even if “intelligence” were proved to be something distinct from both law and chance, it would not necessarily follow that any entity possessing intelligence would also possess contra-causal free will. For instance, one might view intelligence as some kind of top-down causation, whose activity was determined, but not law-governed. I would like to stress that this is not a view which I take, although I think that animal minds might work in this way. The reason why I mention this possibility is simply to show that the Intelligent Design project does not commit itself at the outset to a particular view of free will – namely, the libertarian view, in which intelligent agents always the possess the power to do otherwise, when they make a choice.

Finally, RDFish may be wondering how one could possibly argue to the existence of a disembodied Intelligence, if Intelligent Design is compatible with materialism. I addressed this objection in my 2011 post, The four tiers of Intelligent Design – an ecumenical proposal:

The claim I am putting forward here is that there are four levels of inquiry in Intelligent Design:

(1) Which patterns in Nature can be identified, through a process of scientific investigation, as the work of intelligent agents? That is, which patterns in Nature can be shown to have intelligent agents as their proximate causes?
(2) Which of the patterns identified in (1) can be shown to have been caused by intelligent agents outside the observable universe?
(3) For which of the patterns identified in (2) as the work of intelligent agents from beyond our universe can scientists rule out chance and/or necessity as the ultimate cause?
(4) Which of the patterns identified in (3) would require an intelligence with an infinite information-generating capacity, and what kind of infinity are we talking about here (aleph-one or higher)?

… Now, I would certainly agree … that the laws of physics themselves require an Intelligent Designer, and I have several times argued for [this] view on Uncommon Descent (see here, here and here). This applies to the laws of the multiverse, just as much as it does to the laws of our observable universe. The Designer of these laws would therefore not be constrained by them, and would be able to contravene them if He saw fit to do so. But this is a Level 3 Intelligent Design argument. And it should be clear by now to readers that Barry Arrington’s recent Put Up or Shut Up! post was about Level 1 of Intelligent Design, not Level 2 or 3.

In short: it is only by appealing to the cosmological version of Intelligent Design (i.e. the fine-tuning argument) that we can establish the existence of a disembodied Designer, Who transcends the physical realm, and thereby refute materialism on strictly scientific grounds. I will have more to say below about the legitimacy of the cosmological argument in part (iv) below, where I address RDFish’s argument that any designer must be an embodied agent.

(iii) Are there alternative teleological explanations for the specified complexity we find in living things, apart from intelligent design?

The bacterium Proteus mirabilis on an XLD agar plate. Professor James Shapiro, an expert in bacterial genetics who champions a non-Darwinian version of evolution via “natural genetic engineering,” discovered that the gut bacterium Proteus mirabilis forms complex terraced rings, an emergent property of simple rules that the bacterium uses to avoid neighboring cells. Professor Shapiro has also shown that bacteria cooperate in communities which exhibit complex behavior such as hunting, building protective structures and spreading spores, and in which individual bacteria may sacrifice themselves for the benefit of the larger community. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

To his credit, RDFish is no fan of Charles Darwin. Nevertheless, he correctly points out that discrediting Darwin does not suffice to establish the reality of Intelligent Design. Other explanations for the functional specified complexity that we find in living things have also been proposed, and RDFish is particularly impressed with the recent work done by Professor James Shapiro, author of Evolution: A View from the 21st Century (paperback, FT press, 2013). Professor Shapiro summarizes his views in a recent article titled, What Natural Genetic Engineering Does and Does Not Mean (Huffington Post, February 28, 2013):

For me, NGE [Natural Genetic Engineering] is shorthand to summarize all the biochemical mechanisms cells have to cut, splice, copy, polymerize and otherwise manipulate the structure of internal DNA molecules, transport DNA from one cell to another, or acquire DNA from the environment. Totally novel sequences can result from de novo untemplated polymerization or reverse transcription of processed RNA molecules.

NGE describes a toolbox of cell processes capable of generating a virtually endless set of DNA sequence structures in a way that can be compared to erector sets, LEGOs, carpentry, architecture or computer programming…

In summary, NGE encompasses a set of empirically demonstrated cell functions for generating novel DNA structures. These functions operate repeatedly during normal organism life cycles and also in generating evolutionary novelties, as abundantly documented in the genome sequence record.

However, Professor Shapiro was candid enough to admit that the origin of major evolutionary innovations (such as radically new functional arrangements of parts) remains an unsolved problem:

While NGE can help in understanding the molecular details of rapid and widespread genome change, it does not tell us what makes genomic novelties come out to be useful. How natural genetic engineering leads to major new inventions of adaptive use remains a central problem in evolution science.

To address this problem experimentally, we need to do more ambitious laboratory evolution research looking for complex coordinated changes in the genome.

If we are able to observe cells coordinating NGE functions to make useful complex inventions in real time, major questions arise. How do they perceive what may be useful?… We need to figure out how to do experiments on this.

If experiments show that cells can make distinct appropriate NGE responses to different adaptive challenges, we need to figure out how they do so. This almost certainly would prove to be more than a strictly mechanical process… If such investigations take evolution science into areas that are more than strictly material, so be it. As long as we stay within the realm of natural processes, there are no boundaries on what science can address.

The protein hexokinase, as shown in a conventional ball-and-stick molecular model. In its simplest form, which is found in bacteria, this enzyme consists of hundreds of amino acids, which belong to a single domain. The proportion of amino-acid chains with a length of more than 100 units which fold up into a protein that can perform a useful biological function is so low that the odds of finding such a protein via an unguided process, even over billions of years, would be less than the odds of finding a needle in a haystack. To scale in the top right-hand corner are two of the protein’s substrates, ATP and glucose. Image courtesy of Tim Vickers and Wikipedia.

But as Professor William Dembski points out in a critical post titled, Is James Shapiro a Darwinist After All? (Evolution News and Views, January 25, 2012), Shapiro doesn’t go far enough in his questioning of Darwinism. He maintains that non-foresighted processes are sufficient to generate evolutionary novelty. The problem with this view is that non-foresighted processes are by definition incapable of searching for a “needle in a haystack,” which, as Dembski points out, is precisely the kind of search we require, in order to account for the origin of the highly complex proteins which we find in living things, each of which has its own specific function:

Neo-Darwinism essentially localizes the creative potential of evolution in genetic mutations. Shapiro rightly sees that this can’t be the main source of evolutionary variation. So he expands it to include “horizontal DNA transfer, interspecific hybridization, genome doubling and symbiogenesis.” Fine, now you’ve got a richer source of variation. But what is coordinating these variations to bring about the increasing complexity we find in biological systems? Shapiro’s answer is “natural genetic engineering.” Cells, according to Shapiro, are intelligent in that they do their own natural genetic engineering, taking existing structures through horizontal DNA transfer or symbiogenesis, say, and reworking them in new contexts for new uses.

But in making such a claim, has Shapiro really solved anything? Has he truly understood the evolution of any complex biological structures? …

Natural genetic engineering would actually mean something, providing genuine understanding of and solutions for the origin of novel biological structures, if Shapiro could point to actual, identifiable mechanisms and show how they take existing structures and then refashion them into new ones. But Shapiro doesn’t do this…

Shapiro doesn’t know the first thing about how natural genetic engineering itself works. What Shapiro knows is the inputs to evolution. Those inputs are richer than the impoverished inputs of Neo-Darwinism, whose main input is genetic mutation. So Shapiro adds symbiogenesis, lateral gene transfer, etc. We are supposed to be impressed. Okay, it’s great that scientists like Shapiro have been able to discover this enriched set of inputs. And Shapiro claims to have discovered a richer transformative principle for these inputs. Darwin gives us natural selection. Again, this is too impoverished for Shapiro. In its place (or, perhaps, supplementing it), Shapiro gives us natural genetic engineering.

But in fact, natural genetic engineering, in the way Shapiro uses it, is no more enlightening than natural selection, which Shapiro to his credit at least admits is bankrupt. But they’re both magic phrases, mantras that claim to provide insight into how evolutionary transformations occur, but in fact offer no real understanding, nor real solutions. We can see this in Shapiro’s latest reply to Gauger and Axe: “well-documented natural processes are more than adequate to explain how protein evolution for new functionalities can occur in a purely natural and combinatorial fashion.”

Come again? “More than adequate”? Such overblown rhetoric ought immediately to set off warning bells. My colleagues and I would be happy with mere adequacy. The problem is that the natural processes Shapiro cites don’t even rise to that level. To explain protein evolution, it’s not enough to point to some known antecedents (genetic shuffling of one form or another) and then merely invoke the label “natural genetic engineering,” as though this explained anything. Far from explaining what needs to be explained, it sidesteps and misdirects from the real question. This becomes evident when Shapiro cites getting new functionalities in a purely “combinatorial fashion.”

As a probabilist, I’ve had to do my share of combinatorics, a branch of mathematics concerned with counting possibilities. The problem is that in genetics and proteomics, the possible gene and protein products are immense, and so the challenge, always, is to find some biologically meaningful path through these combinatorial spaces. So, when Shapiro invokes natural processes that operate in combinatorial fashion, he is in fact explaining nothing about protein evolution but merely restating the problem.

Intelligent Design: not an argument from ignorance

The problem highlighted by Professor Dembski is not unique to James Shapiro’s theory of natural genetic engineering. It is a problem which besets any account of the origin of astronomically improbable structures with a specified function of their own (such as proteins). Foresight, coupled with an ability to visualize and express to oneself the form of the solution to the problem one is trying to solve, is the only kind of process that is capable of generating structures like these.

Finally, as Dr. Stephen Meyer has pointed out, the argument for an Intelligent Designer is not an argument from ignorance, as RDFish contends, but rather an abductive inference, or an inference to the best explanation. The argument is that we discover certain features in some systems (functional specified complexity) which we know that intelligent beings are capable of generating, by virtue of their ability to conceptualize. By contrast, the unguided processes known to us are extremely unlikely to generate these features within the time available. Given what we know, then, the inference that these features were produced by an intelligent agent is a rational one.

(iv) Is Intelligent Design incapable in principle of taking us to a disembodied Designer?

RDFish’s final objection to ID is that even if Intelligent Design inferences were sometimes warranted, they could never take us to an Intelligent Designer of the cosmos. The reason is that since all of the intelligent designers that we have ever encountered are physical agents which are incapable of thinking in the absence of complex, highly specified, functional interactions between their body parts, it is rational to infer, on the basis of known evidence, that any designer would possess a body instantiating the property of specified complexity. Since this designer would be unable to account for the complexity of its own body, we may conclude that there can, in principle, be no global explanation for functional specified complexity, on the basis of intelligent design. Any Intelligent Design project, then, can, at best, explain only some of the functional specified complexity we find in Nature; there will always be a residue that remains unexplained.

RDFish’s point is that the evidence we have for the proposition that any intelligent designer must be a complex, embodied being is just as powerful as the evidence for the proposition that the functional specified complexity we find in Nature was generated by an intelligent designer. Both propositions are amply confirmed by experience, which teaches us that (i) only intelligent agents are capable of generating highly complex systems which perform a specific function, and that (ii) intelligent agents are incapable of doing anything at all without bodies which function in a complex way. I would like to point out that RDFish is not espousing materialism here: his aim is not to show that mind and body are equivalent, but merely that they are inseparable, in our experience. We have no experience of disembodied minds, just as we have no experience of unguided processes generating highly complex functional systems.

However, I believe that RDFish overlooks a vital point. The evidence that we have for all intelligent agents being embodied is inductive: it is based on a sample of all the intelligent agents known to science – namely, living and dead members of the species Homo sapiens, plus a few species of mammals and birds, if one wishes to be very generous in defining “intelligence.”

By contrast, as I pointed out above, the evidence for Intelligent Design is abductive: it consists in identifying the best explanation for a set of observations which are confirmed by experience and careful testing.

To counter this distinction I have drawn, RDFish would need to formulate an argument, showing that a functioning, complex body constitutes the best possible explanation for an intelligent agent’s ability to think, and to design specified complex systems. That would amount to abductive evidence for RDFish’s claim that intelligent agents require functioning bodies, consisting of multiple parts, in order to be able to think.

The only argument I have seen from RDFish on this point is that many concepts – such as the concept of a protein, or for that matter, the concept of a particular body plan characterizing a certain phylum of complex animals – are inherently complex, and that these concepts require a physical medium of some sort, in order to store the information required to express them.

However, the notion that concepts need to be stored makes sense only for a time-bound designer. A Designer Who is outside space and time would have no need to store His concepts in the first place – and hence, no need to encode them in a physical medium.

In addition, I believe RDFish’s argument makes an illicit slide from the formal complexity of the concepts required by an Intelligent Designer to solve design problems, to the material complexity of the bodily parts possessed by all designers known to us. The formal concepts used by a designer to solve problems are by their nature integral to the design process, whereas the material structures used to represent these concepts are not. There is no reason in principle why a designer would need a complex body in order to solve problems. What a designer really needs are complex concepts. The evidence that all intelligent designers are embodied entities is therefore inductive, rather than abductive.

Nevertheless, RDFish might object that nothing could possibly warrant the claim that the cosmos itself was designed. Put simply, we have no experience of anything outside the cosmos: all of our concepts are derived from objects within the cosmos. If we step outside the very framework which supplies us with our concepts, what hope can we possibly have of reasoning soundly? We should therefore stick to what we do well, and confine ourselves to searching for explanations lying within our own cosmos, rather than beyond it.

The flaw in this argument lies in its Humean assumption that all of our mental concepts are derived from experience. There are, however, certain concepts which the mind constructs and then applies to the objects in our experience – concepts such as “agent,” “explanation,” “cause,” “effect,” “control,” “rule,” “nature,” “capacity” and “goal,” to name just a few. There is nothing illicit in applying these concepts to the cosmos as a whole. For instance, we can meaningfully ask whether the cosmos-as-a-whole had a cause, or whether it requires an explanation. We can also identify rules (laws of Nature) which characterize the cosmos-as-a-whole.

I have argued that we can legitimately infer the existence of a Designer of the cosmos on philosophical grounds from the existence of laws of Nature, in my two posts, Does scientific knowledge presuppose God? A reply to Carroll, Coyne, Dawkins and Loftus and Is God a good theory? A response to Sean Carroll (Part One).

In my post, Is God a good theory? A response to Sean Carroll (Part Two), I explain how the existence of an Intelligent Designer of the cosmos-as-a-whole can be defended on scientific grounds, by appealing to the fine-tuning argument, and why invoking the multiverse fails to undermine this argument. If RDFish wishes to peruse these articles and comment on them, he is welcome to do so.

Finally, I defend the intellectual coherence of a bodiless Designer in my 2011 post, Two pretty good arguments for atheism (courtesy of Dave Mullenix).

I hope this post of mine answers RDFish’s questions, and I would now like to throw the discussion open to readers.

Comments
VJ to RDFish: You assert that my definition of “intelligent agent” (viz. the ability to communicate reasons in language) cannot be connected to the production of CSI. I disagree. Language itself is very complex and highly specified.
Indeed, language is coded information par excellence. Which is why SETI is searching for coded information as one of the hallmarks of "intelligence." (Per my post #232)Vishnu
June 19, 2014
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"You slandered a movement.." How, exactly, do you slander a movement? And please describe how I have done this? There is nothing that I have said with regard to ID behaviour that I have not witnessed repeatedly. If you disagree with the factuality of what I have said, feel free to provide evidence, anecdote, gut feeling, why I am wrong. But to demand an apology for stepping on your tender ego? I don't think so.Acartia_bogart
June 19, 2014
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RDFish: Sorry for not quoting you exactly, I was trying to take a key statement you've made in a few different ways to its logical conclusion to illustrate its absurdity. You clearly state "we cannot rule out that some undiscovered law may account for what we observe". That statement can be applied to question any other branch of science, and thus is useless as part of a filter of what makes something scientific or not. ID doesn't predict that an intelligent cause can do anything, it predicts that unintelligent causes can't do a specific thing. If even a single observation was made where that thing (CSI) arose from a non intelligent source, that would disconfirm ID.NetResearchGuy
June 19, 2014
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VJT: Well said. KFkairosfocus
June 19, 2014
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RDFish's demand for a encompassing and “scientifically” acceptable definition for intelligence doesn’t make much sense, given the fact that we also don’t have this kind of understanding of matter, energy or natural law. It is rather surprising that RDFish is the first to admit to this fact. RDFish #55:
We really don’t even conceptually understand what “physical” things are made of (they are at once both waves and particles, something we can’t comprehend beyond the equations of quantum theory). Our physical theories are obviously incomplete, and it’s virtually certain that we do not understand foundational aspects of how the universe works.
We don't know what matter and energy is, but we also don’t know why natural laws are true. Berlinski: “Joel Primack, a cosmologist at the University of California, Santa Cruz, once posed an interesting question to the physicist Neil Turok: “What is it that makes the electrons continue to follow the laws.” Turok was surprised by the question; he recognized its force. Something seems to compel physical objects to obey the laws of nature, and what makes this observation odd is just that neither compulsion nor obedience are physical ideas.” [Devil’s Delusion, p.132] Darwin wrote about “life” and “organisms” in the total absence of an encompassing concept for these phenomena from a materialistic perspective - needless to say that even today such a concept is completely lacking.Box
June 19, 2014
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Ab: You have committed repeated, uncorrected willful slander of an entire movement. Now you are trying to divert attention by pointing to others who you claim have done wrong things. For argument, I am willing to accept that several others have done and said wrong things; which they should take stock and assess themselves for then change. Does that now transmute your slanders into truth? No, it does not and you know it. You slandered a movement, including me by direct implication. You have had some time to re-examine your behaviour and take it back. Tis, it seems you are unwilling to do. Not because these are not slanders -- manifestly, they are. But, because you have no regard for truth or for the others who dare disagree with you on an important controversial matter. That, on fair comment, goes to character. Kindly, take a time out and deal with it. GEM of TKI PS: For onlookers interested in the matter of ID thinkers and empirical scientific evidence, I suggest a look here to see how I for one address that matter at 101 level. Compare with the characterisation above by Ab (and the facts about several other ID-supporting participants just here about UD), and you will easily see he has plainly spoken well out of proper order; and as this is a part of a well poisoning exercise on his part, we should take due note of his refusal to correct his serious misbehaviour.kairosfocus
June 19, 2014
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Hi RDFish, I've decided to re-enter the fray and address the points you made in #105 above. Regarding an operational definition of intelligence I was very interested in the following passage of yours:
My point is that a formal language (i.e. one whose grammar can be unambiguously expressed and interpreted according to exhaustively enumerated rules of syntax) is qualitatively different from, and vastly simpler than, natural language (i.e. languages that normal humans use to communicate – English, Hebrew, and so on – that we cannot interpret unambiguously (even syntactically) by means of rules). The difference between formal languages and natural languages can be illustrated thusly: We can write any computer program in any formal language. But we cannot explain how or why we wrote the program in any formal language. Nor can any computer understand natural language – because natural languages are qualitatively different (I can explain why if you're interested).
Congratulations, RDFish. You've just solved your own problem. Here's your operational definition of "intelligence": the ability to understand natural language. This ability is certainly (on your own reckoning) a sufficient condition for possessing intelligence, even if it is not (in your view) a necessary one, as you recognize the existence of non-verbal intelligence as well (about which I'll say more below). By the way, I would be interested in hearing your explanation as to why natural languages are qualitatively different from formal languages, if you've got the time. Regarding the claim that language is integral to the definition of intelligence You write:
But clearly we've no justification for the assertion that natural language abilities are requisite for creative design solutions. As someone else mentioned here, introspectively it appears that solutions to design problems come to us in a non-verbal way (they often come to me when I’m not even thinking about them). In any event, there is no way to settle the question presently using scientific methods.
I agree with you that humans can somehow obtain the solutions to many problems in a non-verbal way (think of Kekule's dream, which revealed to him the structure of benzene). However, I would say that obtaining the solution to a problem is not, per se, intelligent. One has to recognize the solution for what it is and be able to explain how it solves the problem. That, for me, is where intelligence comes in. Creativity may be non-verbal; but intelligence, which is tied to the act of understanding, is verbal. Inferring linguistic abilities from biological systems You write:
...[Y]our suggestion that the definition of "intelligence" critically include the ability to explain one's choices clearly implies that "intelligent agents", in your conception of the term, must have natural language abilities, while all we see inside the cell are formal languages. If we looked inside the cell and somehow detected and translated a natural language explanation of the workings of the cell (“The ribosomes were designed to efficiently assemble proteins…”), I would be a believer that a recognizably human-like mind was involved in the design of our bodies. But we have no scientific basis for claiming that whatever produced the formal language system in the cell was also capable of reflecting on its design and communicating its rationale in natural language.
I agree with you that there is a real and qualitative difference between the formal language we see in living things and the natural language which intelligent agents use when communicating with one another. However, the point I wish to make is that experience abundantly confirms that intelligent agents are the only beings known to be capable of creating a formal language. No combination of law and/or chance in the absence of intelligent agents has ever been known to come close to achieving such an outstanding feat. Thus in the light of what we know, it reasonable to infer that biological systems which instantiate this property were intelligently designed. On contra-causal free will Regarding my claim that intelligence is capable of duplicating anything that these other abilities can generate, you respond:
I don’t actually understand this. How can our “intelligence” replicate other physical processes?
To understand what I have in mind here, you might want to recall a passage in Bertrand Russell's essay, "Death as the Final Event of the Self" (in Why I Am Not a Christian, 1957):
In one of Aesop's fables, a lion is shown pictures of huntsmen catching lions and remarks that, if he had painted them, they would have shown lions catching huntsmen. Man, says Dr. Barnes [the former Archbishop of Birmingham], is a fine fellow because he can make airplanes. A little while ago there was a popular song about the cleverness of flies in walking upside down on the ceiling, with the chorus: "Could Lloyd George do it? Could Mr. Baldwin do it? Could Ramsay Mac do it? Why, NO." On this basis a very telling argument could be constructed by a theologically-minded fly, which no doubt the other flies would find most convincing.
I think Russell's remarks here are almost unparalleled in the history of human silliness. The point is that even if we cannot walk upside down on the ceiling, we can (by virtue of our intelligence) build robotic devices that look like flies, and that can accomplish the same feat. Indeed, our robotic insects are even able to fool other insects, who often mistake them for the "real thing." In other words, intelligence can duplicate any feat that can be accomplished by a non-intelligent agent. Unintelligent systems, by contrast, do not have this universal duplicating ability. There is thus a very real distinction between intelligent and unintelligent processes. On ID as an argument from ignorance You write:
ID thinks that “alien life forms who intelligently design” constitutes a valid version of ID theory, but that obviously suffers from the same problem of failing to explain the origin of those life forms. I might guess that you believe that a necessary being existing outside of spacetime obviates the need for any more explanation, but of course it really doesn’t, as we all want to know: Why? Calling something “necessary” doesn’t help – one could just as well call the special initial conditions “necessary”.
I don't think Intelligent Design theory can take us to a necessary being - that's a metaphysical argument. If it can be shown, however, that the multiverse is fine-tuned (as Robin Collins has argued in his essay, "The Teleological Argument"), then it would point to a Designer outside space-time, Who is not governed by law. Intelligent Design theory cannot demonstrate that such a Designer would have to be simple. All it could say is that the Designer would not be material, whatever else it might be. It seems to me that the difference between us on this score isn't so great. You are willing to at least entertain the notion that some aliens might have designed our universe. These aliens would be outside our space-time, at least. And presumably they wouldn't have brains like ours, either. Also, any laws they were subject to would be different from ours. It seems to me that your materialism has been considerably watered down from your initial insistence (in a previous post) that an intelligent agent had to have a brain. On abductive inference You write:
I don’t think “God” is a well-defined scientific theory, and as I previously explained, abductive inference is not merely the best guess – a scientific result must have empirical evidence. Why do you insist that these discussions regarding God, necessary beings who exist outside of spacetime, libertarian dualism, and so on are scientific? They aren’t – they are theological and philosophical, and the difference is we can’t support our answers by appeal to our uniform and repeated experience.
In reply: I wouldn't call "God" a scientific concept. As for libertarian dualism, I think the arguments that demonstrate it are metaphysical, although I think the falsity of materialism can be demonstrated mathematically. See the following online papers by mathematician J. R. Lucas: "Minds, Machines and Godel," "Satan Stultified" and "Mechanism: A Rejoinder." I do, however, consider "intelligence" to be a scientific concept. And while I'm quite willing to suppose for argument's sake that the Designer of life might be a material agent, I would resist any attempt to define "intelligence" in a way that assumes it to be the outcome of a material process. Definitionally, at least, the term "intelligence" must be kept free from the smothering embrace of any "ism," including materialism. We can know on abductive grounds that intelligence (as defined by its operational ability to use natural language in order to generate functional complex specified information [FCSI], including the formal language we find in the cell) is the only explanation which is known to adequately account for the rich informational properties of living things. It is reasonable to infer, then, that life was produced by an Intelligence. Regarding retro-causality, you write:
The point you’re missing here is that modern physics already makes no sense. How can something be a wave and a particle at the same time? How can matter be made of “things” that are not material? How can a cat be alive and dead at the same time? How can a quantum eraser experiment work? How can causal influences be non-local? How can realism be wrong? And so on. Retro-causality (which enables circular causality) is a very crazy idea intended to explain the very crazy phenomena we observe in quantum physics.
You might want to have a look at the Wikipedia article, "Interpretations of quantum mechanics." There are more than a dozen. Quantum mechanics doesn't require you to reject realism, or say that cats can be both alive and dead at the same time. As for waves and particles, the notion of a probability wave is the more fundamental one, a Schrodinger's equation makes clear. Explanatory circles are a kind of craziness that I see no need to postulate, in order to accommodate the findings of quantum mechanics. Final thoughts You write:
First, one cannot compute the probability of a system of unknown origins, second you have no way to distinguish “unguided processes” from all other processes unless you assume libertarianism, and third your definition of “intelligent agent” (viz. the ability to communicate reasons in language) cannot be connected to the production of CSI... And again, these probabilities are produced by multiplying out all possible combinations of amino acids, which is as useless as dividing square footage to compute the probability of a lightning strike on a church steeple... Again, your proposal to use "caused by goals" is not useful in the context of ID unless you assume libertarianism. Otherwise, one can say that the goal of a river is to find a path to the sea, making rivers intelligent agents... Again, the point is that all of the distinctions you make between “blind” and “unguided” processes and “intelligent” processes are either (1) framed in terms of the effects of the process, a strategy that you've already rejected, or (2) framed in terms of libertarianism, which renders ID unscientific. After all, if we arguendo assume materialism, then human beings can be shown to falsify ID per your criterion: Since under materialism human intelligence is nothing but “blind processes” at work in the brain, we would have proof that “blind processes” produce astronomically improbable systems!
Your remarks about lightning suggest a misunderstanding on your part. The lightning example is about real-world probabilities: they are what counts, if you're trying to protect yourself against being struck by lightning. When Intelligent Design theorists speak of probabilities in relation to amino acids forming a protein, they are not necessarily talking about real-world probabilities - after all, it is possible that the world we live in has somehow been jerry-rigged to enable proteins to assemble, via front-loading. Rather, the point is that the theoretical probability of an unbiased system of amino acids to form a protein is astronomically low, and in order to make the outcome seem likely in the real world, one would have to postulate that the laws of Nature and/or the initial conditions of the cosmos were biased, too, in a very strange, life-friendly manner. In that case, one might ask: "Why do we find this strange life-friendly bias within Nature, which couldn't give a fig about us and didn't know we were coming?" That's surely a reasonable scientific question. Your counter-example of the river is not a good one. Even if one were to argue that a river's goal is to find the sea, a river is incapable of planning how to accomplish its long-term objectives it has, over the course of a lifetime. It is also incapable of deliberating about its goals in natural language. You assert that my definition of “intelligent agent” (viz. the ability to communicate reasons in language) cannot be connected to the production of CSI. I disagree. Language itself is very complex and highly specified. The 26 letters of the alphabet can be combined in very many ways, and the proportion of combinations that constitute a meaningful sentence in a natural language is very, very low, indicating that language has a high information content. Finally, your argument, "Since under materialism human intelligence is nothing but 'blind processes' at work in the brain, we would have proof that 'blind processes' produce astronomically improbable systems!" misses the point of the Intelligent Design project. First, materialism does not claim that "human intelligence is nothing but 'blind processes' at work in the brain"; rather, it claims that human intelligence is the product of blind processes in the brain. Big difference. Second, if there are certain signature properties of intelligence (i.e. CSI, coupled with natural language) which distinguish it from the effects of other blind processes in Nature, then the search for patterns in Nature which can only have been produced by an intelligent agent is not a vain one. And that's what ID is all about. I hope what I've written makes sense to you, RDFish. Cheers.vjtorley
June 19, 2014
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Vishnu:
Mercy, the rancor.
Luke Skywalker didn't show any mercy to the rancor.
ID suffers from major deficiencies.
That could be but RDFish hasn't found any of them.Joe
June 19, 2014
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VJTorley, Your interesting OP has attracted almost 1300 visits so far and has provoked a very long follow-up discussion that may reach 300 comments pretty soon, if it continues at the current pace. However, this discussion seems above my pay grade. My limited mind can't process so much information in such a short amount of time. Definitely too difficult for me. I'm an ignorant creationist IDiot who doesn't understand 'n-D evo' ;-) If your readers feel like taking a short break from this intense discussion, they might want to consider refreshing their minds by looking at this much easier and more relaxing thread https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/ Kind regards.Dionisio
June 19, 2014
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Mercy, the rancor. Face it folks, on both "sides." Blind watchmaker evolution suffers from major deficiencies. ID suffers from major deficiencies. Does any objective sane person really deny these two assertions? Calm down, pop open a beer, and realize that you're brothers on this earth. Kum Bai YaVishnu
June 19, 2014
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Tantrum time- RDFish:
Yes, you are completely correct. You have refuted everything I’ve ever said, and thus there is nothing more for you to say.
Then you should be leaving as there is nothing more for you to say. Thanks for coming by, though. Always good for a laugh.
Yes, I fully agree. Let us watch you be true to your word and completely ignore me and my debates here from now on
There is no need for you to post here and your "debates" are a joke that need exposing. I am the magicians' nightmare and you are a magician wannabe weaving your magic with your quote-mines and penny philosophy. That means I will ignore you when you go away and you childish antics with you. Until then I will expose you at every opportunity. Too bad. You had your chance when you actually engaged me above. But you choked big time and then ignored that when it was exposed. And now you want to try to pretend that never happened and we all know why. Congratulations, indeed... :razz:Joe
June 19, 2014
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Acartia_bogart, "Although ID claims that the “intelligent designer” does not infer the existence of god, this is just dissembling to try to gain credibility for their “science”. But we both know that if it was discovered that life on earth was created by a living intelligence that clearly was not their Judeo-Christian god, they would continue to argue that this designer was designed by another intelligence." Genetic Fallacy Explanation The genetic fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit. Even from bad things, good may come; we therefore ought not to reject an idea just because of where it comes from, as ad hominem arguments do. Equally, even good sources may sometimes produce bad results; accepting an idea because of the goodness of its source, as in appeals to authority, is therefore no better than rejecting an idea because of the badness of its source. Both types of argument are fallacious.Phil2232
June 19, 2014
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Piotr, You just refuse to read what I post. You remind me of Zachriel who also confuses this issue in the exact same way as you do.
Because those mutations may well be present in the population before the stimulus is applied (google for “the Lederberg experiment”, for example).
Wrong- as I said other bacteria in the colony also provide stimulus.
The genome of Flavobacterium contains 2-6 million base pairs. There’re millions of bacteria in every mililitre of wastewater — the whole pond will contain quadrillions upon quadrillions of bacteria, producing a new generation every two hours or so. This means that lots of mutations will necessarily happen many times independently (popping in and out of existence in the population).
That doesn't mean unguided evolution did it, Piotr. And just not any mutation will do. BTW you have no idea if nylonase ever appeared in the absence of the nylon waste water. So you should stop with your fantasy alreadyJoe
June 19, 2014
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Joe @273: Because those mutations may well be present in the population before the stimulus is applied (google for "the Lederberg experiment", for example). They "just happen" from time to time, but most of them are quickly eliminated if they offer no selective advantage. An environmental change may make a hitherto neutral or mildly deleterious mutation advantageous. The genome of Flavobacterium contains 2-6 million base pairs. There're millions of bacteria in every mililitre of wastewater -- the whole pond will contain quadrillions upon quadrillions of bacteria, producing a new generation every two hours or so. This means that lots of mutations will necessarily happen many times independently (popping in and out of existence in the population).Piotr
June 19, 2014
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Hi Joe,
So to us there isn’t anything more to say until you engage the refutation.
Yes, you are completely correct. You have refuted everything I've ever said, and thus there is nothing more for you to say.
That is why he is best ignored…
Yes, I fully agree. Let us watch you be true to your word and completely ignore me and my debates here from now on. It really will show me that you've won. So there is no need for you to even read my posts anymore, since you've proven they are nothing but nonsense, and certainly no need for you to comment in these threads (like this one, which VJT started and called "A Reply to RDFish") ever again. Congratulations! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
June 19, 2014
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Hi Mapou, No, no relation to AI_guy on Reddit. I've been AIGuy on other forums for many years though. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
June 19, 2014
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Acartia_bogart- I see that you too have issues with the facts and are forced into quote-mining. Oh well.Joe
June 19, 2014
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Yes, it is best if no one read RDFish's easily refuted cry-baby rants. However UD seems intent on feeding the troll. BTW IDists have said exactly what would falsify ID and in some or even many cases proving one theory would definitely falsify others. Wow, I cannot believe how scientifically ignorant RDFish is.Joe
June 19, 2014
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RDFish, are you the_AI_guy who posts on AI Reddit?Mapou
June 19, 2014
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Hi Acartia_bogart, Again, it really is best if you don't even read what they say. They are just very angry people, and they do not want to discuss anything at all. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
June 19, 2014
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Hi NetResearchGuy,
I think what ID is saying is that intelligence is the only known cause of CSI.
What do you mean by "intelligence"?
Unknown law is rejected on the basis that no known physical law is expressed in a form that could generate CSI, because all known physical laws have either regularity or stochastic randomness.
This is a non-sequitur, since you can't say why regularity + randomness is incapable of producing CSI. You can (as I do) judge that random genetic variation plus natural selection is incapable of producing the CSI we observe in biology, but as far as anyone knows, even human thought proceeds according to the same physical laws as everything else.
A single instance of a natural law or process that is not regular or stochastic would refute ID — that’s called falsifiability.
Wow, there are a lot of errors built into that single sentence. I'll just pick one: One does not falsify a theory by proving another. Rather, one falsifies a theory by disconfirming a prediction (or retrodiction). Since there are no phenomena which are in principle impossible for ID's "intelligent cause" (whatever that is supposed to mean), then nothing can disconfirm ID.
According to your view, anything that is falsifiable by any imaginable future evidence is not science.
You aren't even remotely close to understanding my argument. This is complete nonsense. Read what I've written and get back to me when you have a clue as to what I've been arguing. It would help if you started quoting people - the way I'm quoting you here - rather than just writing all by yourself. That way you wouldn't waste our time on strawmen arguments that neither of us believe. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
June 19, 2014
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KD Fish: "(just wait to see what they say about this post!)" And it only took five minutes. Joe: "However in his typical cowardly fashion, RDF just ignores all of that and prattles on anyway. That is why he is best ignored"Acartia_bogart
June 19, 2014
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RDF:
There are only a very few ID folks here who are interested in actually discussing the issues
And obviously no anti-ID folks who do.
KF, Joe, and Mung are quite clearly not among them.
We have exposed and refuted your nonsense. So to us there isn't anything more to say until you engage the refutation. However in his typical cowardly fashion, RDF just ignores all of that and prattles on anyway. That is why he is best ignored...Joe
June 19, 2014
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Piotr- I told you the details are what science is for- what is your problem? And Ohno has no idea what caused the frame-shift.
Are you aware of experiments which demonstrate that mutations which turn out to be adaptive don’t happen in response to environmental stimuli?
Just how did the experiments do that, Piotr? With bacteria they use chemical signals to communicate. Those signals are part of the environment and can be an environmental stimuli.Joe
June 19, 2014
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Hi Acartia_bogart, There are only a very few ID folks here who are interested in actually discussing the issues. KF, Joe, and Mung are quite clearly not among them. They will say anything to get your attention, and they get increasingly hysterical if you ignore them... but then again they get pretty hysterical if you mention them too (just wait to see what they say about this post!) I've found it's best to not even read their posts, which is my policy. They do clutter up these threads, making it tedious to scroll through to find comments from earnest debaters, but that's the price you pay when you debate on the internet. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
June 19, 2014
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Kairosfocus, you have criticized the tone of a couple of my comments, called me a liar, and other things. And then you demand an apology. An apology to whom? My comments were aimed at the ID mentality and strategy, not at a person. And I stand behind them. This differs from some of the other comments made in this comment string that are personal and directed insults. How come you have not demanded that they apologize? "the ignorance is all yours." "Why are people wasting time on RDF when it is obvious it is scientifically illiterate and on an agenda?" "you have no idea what you are talking about and it shows." "That has been explained such that my 11 year old grasps the concept." "Doh..! I wonder why? He must have got his Nobel prize from a cornflakes packet. Probably, purloined that from Rosalind Franklin, too – when she was putting on the kettle, perhaps. " "As I said RDF is scientifically illiterate and UD is feeding the troll." "Literally. It’s exactly that detached from understanding. And yet, you do it with enthusiasm." "It is pathetic to watch the inane attempts to mock ID." "Unfortunately RDFish isn’t rational." "Does RDFish understand any of that? Hell no and that is evidence that RDFish is not rational or at least scientifically illiterate." "Just because you are gullible enough to believe that trope doesn’t mean anything and it sure as heck isn’t evidence." "Not with a butthead strawman erector like you at the controls." "What a moron." "How do we know you’re just a bot? Repetition. Inability to evolve and adapt. Lack of signs of intelligence." "So RDFish drops his cowardice long enough to actually deal with my refutation of his claims, gets it all wrong which exposes his ignorance and then prattles on as if nothing happened." "Evolve- you are not smart enough to educate anyone, even yourself." "It’s as if you are proud to be ignorant."Acartia_bogart
June 19, 2014
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Yes, that could be one way of doing it.
Details please. The bacteria just deduce what stuff they need and change their DNA accordingly? As simple as that? What tools do they use? Or does God do it for them? Again, by what means?
What’s the alternative- stuff happens and if it happens to work then great?
Have you seen Ohno's 1984 article at all? It shows how the frame-shift happened. Are you aware of experiments which demonstrate that mutations which turn out to be adaptive don't happen in response to environmental stimuli? Of course you aren't.Piotr
June 19, 2014
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Timaeus, precisely and exactly correct. And, we would infer design on an intuitive understanding that evident functionally specific complex organisation and associated information are empirically reliable, analytically plausible signs of design. All that something like the expression Chi_500 = Ip*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold, is to quantify on reasonable models. But this is stoutly resisted, not because it is unreasonable but because it cuts across certain ideological a prioris that like to dress up in the lab coat. KFkairosfocus
June 19, 2014
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For those interested in the Nylonase question: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/why-scientists-should-not-dismiss-intelligent-design/Vishnu
June 19, 2014
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Piotr:
Yeah, Joe, chemistry is so simple
I never made that claim.
In order to break down a nylon oligomer (not aminocaproic acid itself!) into consumable fragments via intelligent design, the bacteria would have to analyse its chemical structure, identify the bond to be broken (note: one that it can’t have met in nature before nylon was synthesised), design an appropriate enzyme to attack the bond, and back-translate that enzyme into DNA sequence.
Yes, that could be one way of doing it. What's the alternative- stuff happens and if it happens to work then great?
How does it happen, Joe?
That is what science is for, Piotr- to help us understand the design. And again what is the alternative?
Where’s the ID research which elucidates the mechanism of this “response”?
Look Piotr, there isn't any unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution taking place- it is a useless heuristic even given all of the labs and universities at is disposal. Give ID those resources and after a few decades we can talk. Stuff happening just because that is the nature of the stuff. And then having that stuff happening produce something like nylonase is not a scientific position. So if you ever have something better than design we could also address that too.Joe
June 19, 2014
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