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On worshiping the right God: Jerry Coyne asks a sensible question

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It had to happen sooner or later. Professor Jerry Coyne has identified what he sees as an inconsistency in Dr. William Lane Craig’s Divine Command theory of ethics, and after reading his latest post on the subject, I have to agree that Coyne is basically right and Craig is wrong. Consider the following statements by Professor Craig (see here and here):

Remember: on perfect being theology, God is a maximally great being, a being which is worthy of worship.

According to the version of divine command ethics which I’ve defended, our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God.

On voluntaristic theories God’s commands are based upon His free will alone. He arbitrarily chooses what values are good or bad and what our obligations and prohibitions are….

Most divine command theorists [including Craig himself – VJT] are non-voluntarists who hold that moral values are not grounded in God’s will but in His nature. Moral duties are grounded in His will or commands; but moral values are prior to His will, since God’s own nature is not something invented by God. Since His will is not independent of His nature but must express His nature, it is logically impossible for Him to issue certain sorts of commands. In order to do so, He would have to have a different nature, which is logically impossible. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

So far, so good, but Craig also says this:

On divine command theory, then, God has the right to command an act, which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been sin, but which is now morally obligatory in virtue of that command. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

One might ask: could God legitimately command someone to kill, then, or would that be murder? Craig responds:

No, it’s not. Rather, since our moral duties are determined by God’s commands, it is commanding someone to do something which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been murder.

Comments Coyne:

If that’s not voluntaristic DCT [Divine Command Theory], I don’t know what is. It basically says that God’s commands ARE the arbiter of right and wrong.

I have to say that I think Coyne has a legitimate point here. In order for Professor Craig to extricate himself from the inconsistency that he appears to have fallen into, he would have to do the following:

(1) show that there are certain actions that God could not possibly command us to do, because they would be contrary to His character;
(2) specify at least some of these things that God cannot command us to do; and
(3) explain why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.

Meeting the first requirement is fairly easy, if one defines God as a maximally perfect (and hence, all-loving) being, as Craig does. For then it follows that God could not command any action which can only be justified by appeal to values which run contrary to universal love.

The real problem, as I see it, lies in the second requirement. Consider the example of torture. If the infliction of torture is not self-evidently wrong, then it is hard to see what would be. But now consider a surgeon operating on a patient back in the old days before anesthetics had been invented. Surgical patients had to be forcibly held down during operations, because the pain was so great. Was that torture? “Obviously not!”, I hear you reply. “After all, the surgeon was intending to heal the patient, and the infliction of pain was unintentional.” But now consider this: what if God is like a surgeon, inflicting pain on us for our own good? C.S. Lewis explored this possibility in his book, A Grief Observed:

The terrible thing is that a perfectly good God is in this matter hardly less formidable than a Cosmic Sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal, the less we can believe that there is any use in begging for tenderness. A cruel man might be bribed—might grow tired of his vile sport—might have a temporary fit of mercy, as alcoholics have fits of sobriety. But suppose that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intentions are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is, the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary, then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then these tortures are necessary. For no even moderately good Being could possibly inflict or permit them if they weren’t.

But now ask yourself this: what if God, instead of inflicting these tortures on us Himself for our own good, were to ask some human being to inflict them, acting in His name? Would it be possible for an all-loving God to command someone to do that? If you are inclined to answer “Yes,” then you can no longer hold that God could never command us to torture someone.

“But surely,” it will be urged, “an all-loving God could never command the torture of innocent children?” Not so fast. What if God (by virtue of His infallible foreknowledge) foresees that if a certain degree of suffering is not inflicted on this child, he will grow up to become a bad person, and eventually be damned? Would it then be consistent with the character of an all-loving God to command a human being to inflict the torture on the child – perhaps because it would have a more salutary effect on the child if it is inflicted by a human authority figure (e.g. a parent or schoolmaster)? And where does one draw the line between corporal punishment and torture, anyway? It seems that someone acting with good intentions, and at the behest of a Being possessing unlimited foreknowledge could justly inflict any degree of pain on an innocent human being, provided they knew that it was necessary for that person’s ultimate good.

Now, someone might object that while it would be theoretically possible for God to act in this way, it would be epistemically irrational for any human being to trust what purported to be a vision of God commanding them to torture someone: for how could they be sure that the Being in the vision was God, and not the Devil? And since critical reason is a God-given gift, God could hardly blame us for prudently rejecting any such command – which in turn means that it could never be obligatory, which implies that God could never justly command such a thing in the first place. But this objection assumes that it is impossible in principle for a human being to distinguish a vision from God and one from the Devil. That hardly seems likely. And if it were true, it would rule out the possibility of our having a warranted belief in any revealed religion.

One way out of this ethical impasse would be to hold that there are certain things which it is morally acceptable for God to do, but which He may not command human beings to do. On this view, it may be all right for Him to inflict painful tribulations on people, for the sake of their ultimate good (i.e. their eternal salvation), but it could never be right for Him to command us to inflict these tribulations on our fellow human beings.

Fair enough; but then the nagging question arises: why, precisely? Why would it be wrong principle for us to do these things to others, if God may licitly do them? One plausible answer is that it would violate some principle of fellowship which we share with our fellow human beings: all men are brothers, and you don’t torture your own brother. But you don’t kill your own brother, either. If torturing another human being contravenes the principle of fellowship, then surely killing another human being does so, too. In that case, Professor Craig will be unable to meet the third requirement I specified above: explaining why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.

Another possible answer is that the act of inflicting torture is inherently desensitizing, for the person who inflicts it: it hardens the torturer’s heart and dehumanizes him in the process, corrupting his soul and placing his own salvation in mortal peril. And since God cares about the salvation of each and every human being, He could not justly command one person to inflict torture on another human being: while the act just might (conceivably) prove to be conducive to the eternal salvation of the victim, it would at the same time jeopardize the eternal salvation of the torturer. But once again, it seems that the same train of logic would rule out the possibility of God commanding one human being to kill another. For if killing someone is not desensitizing, then what is?

There’s another problem with the “desensitization” argument, too. God, being omnipotent, can heal the wounds of the heart. That which has been desensitized, he can re-sensitize. What if God were to reassure the torturer that He would reverse the hardening of the heart resulting from obeying His commands – or even better, prevent it from occurring in the first place?

Perhaps, then, we need a more radical solution. Perhaps it would be wrong not only for human beings, but also for God to deliberately inflict pain on human beings, even if it is intended for the sake of their ultimate good (e.g. to break their stubborn pride and induce them to repent). “Why?” one might ask. Because the supposition is premised on the assumption that God knows what would happen to us if the pain were not inflicted – in other words, that there are true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, if placed in these particular circumstances (e.g. the statement that if I were to suffer paralysis, I would repent and turn to God). But if we have genuine libertarian free will, then it seems that such statements make no sense: for what they amount to is a kind of psychological determinism.

This sounds more promising, but it also entails that God may not justly bring about someone’s death for the sake of procuring their salvation – a conclusion that some believers may find surprising and even counterintuitive.

Another apparent problem with the radical solution proposed above is that while it seems absurd to suppose that there is a there is a true counterfactual statement about what I would or would not choose, in each and every possible situation, there are surely at least some true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, in some situations. For instance, if I were starving, I would surely eat a piece of bread that was dangled in front of my nose. And if I were an alcoholic, then there are surely some situations in which I would find a glass of wine irresistible.

Now, a libertarian might grant this, but still urge that to the extent that there are true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, in some situations, then precisely to that extent, my will is not genuinely free. And since decisions which are not genuinely free are not truly choices on my part, they cannot possibly be conducive to my ultimate good or eternal salvation. (For if I am eventually saved, it can only be through some freely chosen act on my part, even if the supernatural grace required to make that choice can only come from God.) Hence it would be impossible for God to appeal to these counterfactuals in order to justify inflicting pain or death on innocent people.

In that case, then, we have to conclude that God is not like the surgeon after all: He does not inflict pain or death on people for their ultimate good.

So where are we now? It seems that the acts which God cannot command us to do – and which God cannot justly do either – are simply those which are not good for us. And we cannot appeal to counterfactuals about good consequences that would occur or bad consequences that would be avoided, in order to justify the performance of these acts. For as we have seen, these counterfactuals are irrelevant to the extent that we possess libertarian free will.

So far we have only spoken of the innocent, but what of the guilty? May God justly punish the guilty? Surely the answer is yes. May He then command human beings to punish the guilty, acting in His name? And if so, is there any limit to the punishment that one human being may inflict upon another, when acting at God’s behest?

Here, it seems, the difficulty is genuine. For whatever one thinks of corporal and capital punishment, there are surely some cases where the infliction of these punishments brings wicked people to their senses, causing them to repent of their sins. And who among us (little children excepted) is not guilty of some personal sin? (I am not speaking here of original sin.) It seems, then, that there is no reason in principle why God could not justly command one person to punish another. And the severity of that punishment might amount to what we would call torture.

The only answer I can propose here is that it would be out of place for God to ask a creature to perform a task which belongs to the Creator. Judgement of the wicked is a task for God (Who sees into our souls) to perform; punishments inflicted on the basis of that judgement are also God’s responsibility, not ours. Not can it be urged that the State is an instrument of God’s Will in this regard; for the purpose of the State is not to secure absolute justice, but social harmony, and lawbreakers are punished only insofar as they disrupt this harmony by tearing a hole in the fabric of society. For this reason, a pure theocracy, in which human judges strove to be instruments of God’s Will, would be a fundamentally immoral society.

And that’s about as far as my deliberations have taken me. But perhaps I have overlooked something. What do readers think?

One last request. Could we please keep the Bible out of the arguments below, for the sake of polite discussion? I’d like readers to try to resolve the difficulties I have posed above, by appealing to general ethical principles. And now, over to you.

Comments
Dionisio: In a moment of weakness I was being nice to 2 people at once, (you & vjt), that's all. No big deal.Graham2
September 22, 2014
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UBP: It was the latter. It should be trivial, but not here.Graham2
September 22, 2014
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When it comes to material evidence, Graham, I'm afraid you are wrong. If we turn knives on each other, the evidence remains. If you are simply wishing to suggest that people can communicate better with a certain level of mutual decorum, I have no problem with that. It's a rather trivial point.Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
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phoodoo@52 noted
Yes, I get that is a topic about ethics. My question is why?
Why ethics? As I said, ethics is out of the realm of science, and there are, fortunately, few who believe that its constraints should not be applied to science. The next question is "Whose ethics should be applied and on what basis?" Yours? As a Christian, my ethics are derived from the Bible. Why should I be ashamed of this? My delight in science comes from my discovery of the amazing genius of God. I also believe that all of nature is suffering, either from mankind's selfish depredations or stupidity, or from God's partial withdrawal so that mankind can experience the direct results of the absence of God's sustaining care.
The websites stated purpose is “serving the Intelligent Design Community.”
It is. Not all ID advocates are Christians. They might be Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or believers in alien intervention. ID is pragmatic, so I guess a person wouldn't necessarily even have to believe in God.
So can you blame people for assuming that intelligent design is a religious belief, when websites that purport to serve the community spend so much talking about bible passages, and what God must be like?
When the subject comes up, I feel free to share by faith, which is precious to me. If this website were dedicated to vegetarianism, it would be likely that I would mention that the first recorded scientific experiment can be found in the Bible and involves a vegetarian diet!
Not to mention the fact that there can never be a right answer, its all just personal assumptions.
But nevertheless, there is a right answer and many wrong answers. How would you expect to determine the difference?
Its the exact same logic Coyne and Dawkins make for their nonsense-they want to promote atheism, so they do it by ignoring science.
I would say that they try to show that existence is physically inevitable, that life is chemically inevitable, and that evolution can account for all forms of life. Thus, they argue, the simplest explanation falsifies the existence of God.
Intelligent Design is a logical scientific argument. It is not a philosophy.
I would say that ID is a paradigm. When unknown or puzzling phenomena are encountered or observed, ID presumes design or engineering, while Darwinism presumes random processes and lots of useless junk.
It has zero to do with what God must be like. Its no wonder so many people are confused.
I wouldn't go that far. For example, do you think that the astonishing complexity of DNA, epigenetics, overlapping coding, fault tolerance and correction, complex interdependent chemical cycles, and ingenious engineering doesn't say anything about the intelligence behind it? What do you think "so many people are confused" about? -QQuerius
September 22, 2014
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#85 correction #66 Graham2
Dionisio: I violently disagree with your theology,...
violently disagree? violently? What does that mean? Can you explain? Thank you.Dionisio
September 22, 2014
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Dionisio: "Definitely the moderators of this site are very patient and flexible, hence they allow all kinds of commenters here. You should be thankful to them after all. " Well, at least this statement proves that creationists have a sense of humour.william spearshake
September 22, 2014
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#66 Graham2
Dionisio: I violently disagree with your theology, but am employed in the same trade as you. Lifes strange, aint it ?
You're wrong again: no, you're not employed in the same trade as I am. Try again, buddy. Do you accept or decline the invitation in posts #59, #61 and #62 ? BTW, you missed a couple of apostrophes in your closing sentences. But that's fine in a blog discussion thread like this. Though I doubt any exchange of posts with you would qualify as discussion. :) Definitely the moderators of this site are very patient and flexible, hence they allow all kinds of commenters here. You should be thankful to them after all. :)Dionisio
September 22, 2014
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Graham2:
Its not a question of evidence, just etiquette.
Barry offended your sense of etiquette? Why should anyone care? Graham2:
...this isn’t the way any discussion is run, in any subject, in any setting.
Well, if what you really meant to say was that Barry violated your own personal sense of etiquette, why didn't you say so? But then, why is that Barry's problem? Why don't you just change your conception of etiquette?Mung
September 22, 2014
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#66 Graham2
Dionisio: I violently disagree with your theology, but am employed in the same trade as you. Lifes strange, aint it ?
violently disagree? violently? What des that mean? Can you explain? Thank you.Dionisio
September 22, 2014
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UBP: Its not a question of evidence, just etiquette.Graham2
September 22, 2014
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UD lacks objective morality. Got it. Credibility requires objective morality. Got it. There is no objective morality. Got it. Why did the the objectors have a hissy fit when we laughed at their having a hissy fit?
Barry had a hissy fit for a while there, banning anyone that didn’t agree with Plato, or something.
So?
If this is the way the site is run, then you can just forget about any credibility, this isn’t the way any discussion is run, in any subject, in any setting.
So?
... this isn’t the way any discussion is run, in any subject, in any setting.
Ever. Got it.Mung
September 22, 2014
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Graham, physical evidence doesn't change with the furniture. You might keep that in mind.Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
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Ignoring Craig and Coyne’s misleading use of the word “voluntarism” it seems clear to me Coyne’s argument here actually fails. Craig states “On voluntaristic theories God’s commands are based upon His free will alone. He arbitrarily chooses what values are good or bad and what our obligations and prohibitions are” Voluntarism therefore as Craig defines it refers to the position that God can command anything at all for any reason at all. Coyne denies this and cites the text from Craig’s writings concluding. “If that’s not voluntaristic DCT [Divine Command Theory], I don’t know what is. It basically says that God’s commands ARE the arbiter of right and wrong.” The problem is that this simply changes the subject. Craig did not deny that right and wrong are determined by Gods commands and his will determines what’s right and wrong, what he claimed was that God in virtue of his character could not command just anything. Pointing out Craig thinks Gods will determines what’s right and wrong does not refute this. The question is wether Gods will is totally arbitrary or based on something else. Its also pretty clear that Coyne’s “citation” has been creatively edited. Coyne cites Craig’s
But God has no such prohibition. He can give and take life as He chooses. We all recognize this when we accuse some authority who presumes to take life as “playing God.” Human authorities arrogate to themselves rights which belong only to God. God is under no obligation whatsoever to extend my life for another second. If He wanted to strike me dead right now, that’s His prerogative
This sounds like a voluntaristic position, until you look at the whole quote:
“I think that a good start at this problem is to enunciate our ethical theory that underlies our moral judgements. According to the version of divine command ethics which I’ve defended, our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God. Since God doesn’t issue commands to Himself, He has no moral duties to fulfill. He is certainly not subject to the same moral obligations and prohibitions that we are. For example, I have no right to take an innocent life. For me to do so would be murder.
Here Craig is quite explicit, the DCT he is referring to is the view that moral duties are constituted by the commands of a *loving and just* God. His claim that God “can give and take life as he pleases” has been explicated as the claim God has no moral duty to refrain from killing. This is not the same as the claim that he can do so in the sense that its logically possible for him to do so given his nature. That this is what Craig means is evident from the very next line where Craig takes up a different objection. He states “All right; but isn’t such a command contrary to God’s nature? Well, let’s look at the case more closely. ..” Craig here in the very next line shows that he is aware of the problem that although God is under no moral obligation to refrain from commanding killing, there is a separate question of whether its contrary to his nature and he proceeds to argue that such a command is not contrary to Gods nature. Craig in fact in his writings claims that a general command allowing killing for any reason at all would be contrary to these character traits and so God cant issue such a command. However, there are rare circumstances where God can command killing for some greater good. And Craig thinks the Canaanite issue falls into this category. This is clear from his exposition of the same view in Philosophical Foundations of a Christian Worldview.
Nonetheless, the fact that God is not duty-bound should alert us to the fact that He may well have prerogatives (for example, taking human life at His discretion) which are forbidden to us. Taking the life of an innocent person is something we have no right to do; but God is not similarly restricted. God's having no duties also helps to explain how God can command a person to perform an action which would be sinful were the person to undertake such an action on his own initiative, but which is his moral duty in virtue of God's command. The most celebrated example is Abraham's sacrificing his son Isaac, an act which would have been murder in the absence of any command of God but which became Abraham's moral duty in light of the divine command given him. This is not to say that God can bring it about that murder be good, but rather that He can command an act which would have been murder had it been undertaken in the absence of a divine command. This also not to say that God could have brought it about that it be a general moral duty for people to kill one another. The case of Abraham and Isaac is the exception that proves the rule. Issuing a general command that we should seek one another's harm would be contrary to God's loving nature, but in the extraordinary case of Abraham and Isaac, it was not unloving of God to so try Abraham's devotion, and God had good reasons for testing him so severely.
Here Craig explains that in saying that God has the perogative can take human life at his discretion
he does not mean he can command anything at all. He explicitly denies that God can issue a general command to kill human beings for example. Its only in exceptional cases where doing so serves some greater good that such a command would be compatible with Gods nature. This means Craig in fact addresses the issues you raise. You state:
In order for Professor Craig to extricate himself from the inconsistency that he appears to have fallen into, he would have to do the following: (1) show that there are certain actions that God could not possibly command us to do, because they would be contrary to His character; (2) specify at least some of these things that God cannot command us to do; and (3) explain why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.
But Craig does do this, re (1) and (2) he states there are certain actions that God could not possibly command us to do, God can’t issue a command that makes it a general moral duty to kill others. The denial that in in general or ordinary circumstances it’s wrong to kill is incompatible with Gods character. Re (3) Craig argues that in rare circumstances where it killing promotes some greater good it is compatible with his character. Coyne might disagree with Craig here, but to snip the line above, the line below, and pretend he said something other than he did is not the correct or rational way to express that disagreement.Matthew Flannagan
September 22, 2014
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kf, It would seem that since many of your OP's introduce logic and math that these OP's are seen as non-scientific. Could you attempt to make it more clear that you are not introducing religious texts? Perhaps it's time to once again post "the challenge," now that we have this new crop of science-minded objectors to ID?Mung
September 22, 2014
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UBP: Barry had a hissy fit for a while there, banning anyone that didn't agree with Plato, or something. If this is the way the site is run, then you can just forget about any credibility, this isn't the way any discussion is run, in any subject, in any setting.Graham2
September 22, 2014
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Upright BiPed. The fox in the hen house.Mung
September 22, 2014
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WS: I note, mung is right there are ample opportunities to discuss science issues. There are also other linked interests connected to worldviews, phil, science in society and the like. This happens to be such a thread. And as to balance on merits, mung is a bit overstated but his description is often recognisable. Since there has been a longstanding problem of abusive behaviour from especially objectors, after reasonable opportunity, people have been moderated or banned. On all sides BTW. There was a recent case of a major contributor put on mod until he answered a pivotal Q, by the blog owner. While there have been regrettable incidents -- and I have just had to discuss here about people hanging the former Premier in effigy [something I find incredible and would neither countenance nor do . . . ], also there is fallout from a live, on air political suicide that set tongues to wagging . . . -- as long as you remain reasonably civil and do not over indulge in thread jacking or the like, you have but little to fear. One of the longest standing commenters here has been an objector. I hope that provides some balance. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2014
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ws:
If by “run to the hills” you mean “banned from commenting”, I guess you are correct.
By "run to the hills" I mean either producing no response at all (the running chicken response) or producing a response that is about something other than the science (the squawking chicken response). [The more advanced chickens manage to run and squawk at the same time.]Mung
September 22, 2014
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...by the way, conflating “run to the hills” with “banned from commenting” is an incoherent and opportunistic political response, and actually tells us that you are likely to have little to offer in discussions about material evidence.Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
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william spearshake. From my view, you have the situation exactly backwards. There is virtually intractable evidence of design in biology, and it has been discussed on this site. The problem with our current crop of critics is getting them to address it.Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
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Mung: "There are ample opportunities here at UD to debate the science and the empirical evidence, and when they do come up the critics run for the hills." If by "run to the hills" you mean "banned from commenting", I guess you are correct.william spearshake
September 22, 2014
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william spearshake #67: I am an atheist/evolutionist/materialist, but I think that you are correct here.
Don't believe anything your "I" tells "you", because the "I" is an illusion.
FOR SOLID EVOLUTIONARY REASONS, WE’VE BEEN tricked into looking at life from the inside. Without scientism, we look at life from the inside, from the first-person POV (OMG, you don’t know what a POV is?—a “point of view”). The first person is the subject, the audience, the viewer of subjective experience, the self in the mind. Scientism shows that the first-person POV is an illusion. Even after scientism convinces us, we’ll continue to stick with the first person. But at least we’ll know that it’s another illusion of introspection and we’ll stop taking it seriously. We’ll give up all the answers to the persistent questions about free will, the self, the soul, and the meaning of life that the illusion generates. [Rosenberg, The Atheist's Guide to Reality, Ch.9]
p.s. don't ask yourself who is having the illusion, that can get confusing.Box
September 22, 2014
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anthropic, So you see, "good" and "evil" are only relative notions within the game itself for the duration of the game, like rules in Football. If someone performs a pass interference, according to the rules of Football, that is "evil." From that vantage point of an enlightened soul, that is what "moral evil" is as well. But it's all transient. Ultimately there is no such thing as competition or enduring suffering. All "souls" (temporary differentiations of Brahman) voluntarily chose to partipate at various levels at every cycle of the Lila game. It would only be "truly evil" (whatever that means) if individuals were forced to participate. Nobody is forced. Everyone agrees to do it, and you did too, because prior to the veiling everyone understands that it is only a game, it will end, it will be interesting, and everyone is more than joyful to play it prior to the ending of game where, time and space unwind, then the cycle repeats. All souls return to Brahman and exist as bliss, all in all.Vishnu
September 22, 2014
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So the Holocaust was a game? A child molester and Mother Teresa are morally equivalent?
They are not individual games in and of themselves. The whole created order is a game, where there is pain, pleasure, safety and danger. It is all part of Braham's Lila. But like childbirth, it all eventually ends. Then the bliss returns. And Brahman laughs. You are Braham. But you are blind to it. That too, is part of the game.
With apologies to Baudelaire, if there is such a God, He is the devil.
I don't think you're apprehending the big picture. That may be your particular lot in the game. The thing is, you're particular differentiated "self" desired to participate, as all "souls" do, prior to the veiling. Again, part of the game of Lila. All will be well in the end.Vishnu
September 22, 2014
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Anyone other than me sensing the hypocrisy of the critics? There are ample opportunities here at UD to debate the science and the empirical evidence, and when they do come up the critics run for the hills. So stop complaining and man up.Mung
September 22, 2014
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anthropic #56 I don't believe Mordecai did mention a Plan B, but simply remarked that if Ruth didn't step up to the plate, God would find some other means to save his people. An 'ad hoc' recourse. I think BA77 has an answer derived from quantum physics, but I could be wrong. Paging BA77!Axel
September 22, 2014
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Graham2:
But I cant stop coming back, and just gazing in wonder.
Even Graham2 is capable of wonder! He must be one of those who does not believe we are all just living out our biologically determined lives. Or perhaps his wonder is itself biologically determined, and therefore doesn't actually reflect anything about what goes on at this site. Isn't evolution grand!Mung
September 22, 2014
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Phoodoo: "So can you blame people for assuming that intelligent design is a religious belief, when websites that purport to serve the community spend so much talking about bible passages, and what God must be like? " I am an atheist/evolutionist/materialist, but I think that you are correct here. UD, which purports to be in support of the "science" of ID, supposedly not religiously based, loses what little credibility it has when it's moderator continues to allow articles that are purely religious. It also loses credibility when it allows anything under its umbrella, from YEC to evolution lite. And it blows its credibility out of the water when it's argument against evolution (and science) is that it is a religion.william spearshake
September 22, 2014
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vjtorley: I had a small pang of conscience and will now fess up. You actually disagreed with Craig. The usual attitude round here is uncritical admiration, so I appreciate your fairness. Dionisio: I violently disagree with your theology, but am employed in the same trade as you. Lifes strange, aint it ?Graham2
September 22, 2014
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Vishnu 64 So the Holocaust was a game? A child molester and Mother Teresa are morally equivalent? With apologies to Baudelaire, if there is such a God, He is the devil.anthropic
September 22, 2014
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