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On worshiping the right God: Jerry Coyne asks a sensible question

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It had to happen sooner or later. Professor Jerry Coyne has identified what he sees as an inconsistency in Dr. William Lane Craig’s Divine Command theory of ethics, and after reading his latest post on the subject, I have to agree that Coyne is basically right and Craig is wrong. Consider the following statements by Professor Craig (see here and here):

Remember: on perfect being theology, God is a maximally great being, a being which is worthy of worship.

According to the version of divine command ethics which I’ve defended, our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God.

On voluntaristic theories God’s commands are based upon His free will alone. He arbitrarily chooses what values are good or bad and what our obligations and prohibitions are….

Most divine command theorists [including Craig himself – VJT] are non-voluntarists who hold that moral values are not grounded in God’s will but in His nature. Moral duties are grounded in His will or commands; but moral values are prior to His will, since God’s own nature is not something invented by God. Since His will is not independent of His nature but must express His nature, it is logically impossible for Him to issue certain sorts of commands. In order to do so, He would have to have a different nature, which is logically impossible. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

So far, so good, but Craig also says this:

On divine command theory, then, God has the right to command an act, which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been sin, but which is now morally obligatory in virtue of that command. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

One might ask: could God legitimately command someone to kill, then, or would that be murder? Craig responds:

No, it’s not. Rather, since our moral duties are determined by God’s commands, it is commanding someone to do something which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been murder.

Comments Coyne:

If that’s not voluntaristic DCT [Divine Command Theory], I don’t know what is. It basically says that God’s commands ARE the arbiter of right and wrong.

I have to say that I think Coyne has a legitimate point here. In order for Professor Craig to extricate himself from the inconsistency that he appears to have fallen into, he would have to do the following:

(1) show that there are certain actions that God could not possibly command us to do, because they would be contrary to His character;
(2) specify at least some of these things that God cannot command us to do; and
(3) explain why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.

Meeting the first requirement is fairly easy, if one defines God as a maximally perfect (and hence, all-loving) being, as Craig does. For then it follows that God could not command any action which can only be justified by appeal to values which run contrary to universal love.

The real problem, as I see it, lies in the second requirement. Consider the example of torture. If the infliction of torture is not self-evidently wrong, then it is hard to see what would be. But now consider a surgeon operating on a patient back in the old days before anesthetics had been invented. Surgical patients had to be forcibly held down during operations, because the pain was so great. Was that torture? “Obviously not!”, I hear you reply. “After all, the surgeon was intending to heal the patient, and the infliction of pain was unintentional.” But now consider this: what if God is like a surgeon, inflicting pain on us for our own good? C.S. Lewis explored this possibility in his book, A Grief Observed:

The terrible thing is that a perfectly good God is in this matter hardly less formidable than a Cosmic Sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal, the less we can believe that there is any use in begging for tenderness. A cruel man might be bribed—might grow tired of his vile sport—might have a temporary fit of mercy, as alcoholics have fits of sobriety. But suppose that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intentions are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is, the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary, then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then these tortures are necessary. For no even moderately good Being could possibly inflict or permit them if they weren’t.

But now ask yourself this: what if God, instead of inflicting these tortures on us Himself for our own good, were to ask some human being to inflict them, acting in His name? Would it be possible for an all-loving God to command someone to do that? If you are inclined to answer “Yes,” then you can no longer hold that God could never command us to torture someone.

“But surely,” it will be urged, “an all-loving God could never command the torture of innocent children?” Not so fast. What if God (by virtue of His infallible foreknowledge) foresees that if a certain degree of suffering is not inflicted on this child, he will grow up to become a bad person, and eventually be damned? Would it then be consistent with the character of an all-loving God to command a human being to inflict the torture on the child – perhaps because it would have a more salutary effect on the child if it is inflicted by a human authority figure (e.g. a parent or schoolmaster)? And where does one draw the line between corporal punishment and torture, anyway? It seems that someone acting with good intentions, and at the behest of a Being possessing unlimited foreknowledge could justly inflict any degree of pain on an innocent human being, provided they knew that it was necessary for that person’s ultimate good.

Now, someone might object that while it would be theoretically possible for God to act in this way, it would be epistemically irrational for any human being to trust what purported to be a vision of God commanding them to torture someone: for how could they be sure that the Being in the vision was God, and not the Devil? And since critical reason is a God-given gift, God could hardly blame us for prudently rejecting any such command – which in turn means that it could never be obligatory, which implies that God could never justly command such a thing in the first place. But this objection assumes that it is impossible in principle for a human being to distinguish a vision from God and one from the Devil. That hardly seems likely. And if it were true, it would rule out the possibility of our having a warranted belief in any revealed religion.

One way out of this ethical impasse would be to hold that there are certain things which it is morally acceptable for God to do, but which He may not command human beings to do. On this view, it may be all right for Him to inflict painful tribulations on people, for the sake of their ultimate good (i.e. their eternal salvation), but it could never be right for Him to command us to inflict these tribulations on our fellow human beings.

Fair enough; but then the nagging question arises: why, precisely? Why would it be wrong principle for us to do these things to others, if God may licitly do them? One plausible answer is that it would violate some principle of fellowship which we share with our fellow human beings: all men are brothers, and you don’t torture your own brother. But you don’t kill your own brother, either. If torturing another human being contravenes the principle of fellowship, then surely killing another human being does so, too. In that case, Professor Craig will be unable to meet the third requirement I specified above: explaining why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.

Another possible answer is that the act of inflicting torture is inherently desensitizing, for the person who inflicts it: it hardens the torturer’s heart and dehumanizes him in the process, corrupting his soul and placing his own salvation in mortal peril. And since God cares about the salvation of each and every human being, He could not justly command one person to inflict torture on another human being: while the act just might (conceivably) prove to be conducive to the eternal salvation of the victim, it would at the same time jeopardize the eternal salvation of the torturer. But once again, it seems that the same train of logic would rule out the possibility of God commanding one human being to kill another. For if killing someone is not desensitizing, then what is?

There’s another problem with the “desensitization” argument, too. God, being omnipotent, can heal the wounds of the heart. That which has been desensitized, he can re-sensitize. What if God were to reassure the torturer that He would reverse the hardening of the heart resulting from obeying His commands – or even better, prevent it from occurring in the first place?

Perhaps, then, we need a more radical solution. Perhaps it would be wrong not only for human beings, but also for God to deliberately inflict pain on human beings, even if it is intended for the sake of their ultimate good (e.g. to break their stubborn pride and induce them to repent). “Why?” one might ask. Because the supposition is premised on the assumption that God knows what would happen to us if the pain were not inflicted – in other words, that there are true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, if placed in these particular circumstances (e.g. the statement that if I were to suffer paralysis, I would repent and turn to God). But if we have genuine libertarian free will, then it seems that such statements make no sense: for what they amount to is a kind of psychological determinism.

This sounds more promising, but it also entails that God may not justly bring about someone’s death for the sake of procuring their salvation – a conclusion that some believers may find surprising and even counterintuitive.

Another apparent problem with the radical solution proposed above is that while it seems absurd to suppose that there is a there is a true counterfactual statement about what I would or would not choose, in each and every possible situation, there are surely at least some true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, in some situations. For instance, if I were starving, I would surely eat a piece of bread that was dangled in front of my nose. And if I were an alcoholic, then there are surely some situations in which I would find a glass of wine irresistible.

Now, a libertarian might grant this, but still urge that to the extent that there are true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, in some situations, then precisely to that extent, my will is not genuinely free. And since decisions which are not genuinely free are not truly choices on my part, they cannot possibly be conducive to my ultimate good or eternal salvation. (For if I am eventually saved, it can only be through some freely chosen act on my part, even if the supernatural grace required to make that choice can only come from God.) Hence it would be impossible for God to appeal to these counterfactuals in order to justify inflicting pain or death on innocent people.

In that case, then, we have to conclude that God is not like the surgeon after all: He does not inflict pain or death on people for their ultimate good.

So where are we now? It seems that the acts which God cannot command us to do – and which God cannot justly do either – are simply those which are not good for us. And we cannot appeal to counterfactuals about good consequences that would occur or bad consequences that would be avoided, in order to justify the performance of these acts. For as we have seen, these counterfactuals are irrelevant to the extent that we possess libertarian free will.

So far we have only spoken of the innocent, but what of the guilty? May God justly punish the guilty? Surely the answer is yes. May He then command human beings to punish the guilty, acting in His name? And if so, is there any limit to the punishment that one human being may inflict upon another, when acting at God’s behest?

Here, it seems, the difficulty is genuine. For whatever one thinks of corporal and capital punishment, there are surely some cases where the infliction of these punishments brings wicked people to their senses, causing them to repent of their sins. And who among us (little children excepted) is not guilty of some personal sin? (I am not speaking here of original sin.) It seems, then, that there is no reason in principle why God could not justly command one person to punish another. And the severity of that punishment might amount to what we would call torture.

The only answer I can propose here is that it would be out of place for God to ask a creature to perform a task which belongs to the Creator. Judgement of the wicked is a task for God (Who sees into our souls) to perform; punishments inflicted on the basis of that judgement are also God’s responsibility, not ours. Not can it be urged that the State is an instrument of God’s Will in this regard; for the purpose of the State is not to secure absolute justice, but social harmony, and lawbreakers are punished only insofar as they disrupt this harmony by tearing a hole in the fabric of society. For this reason, a pure theocracy, in which human judges strove to be instruments of God’s Will, would be a fundamentally immoral society.

And that’s about as far as my deliberations have taken me. But perhaps I have overlooked something. What do readers think?

One last request. Could we please keep the Bible out of the arguments below, for the sake of polite discussion? I’d like readers to try to resolve the difficulties I have posed above, by appealing to general ethical principles. And now, over to you.

Comments
This version of "God" may resonate as a solution to theodicty: "In the Advaita Vedanta model, Brahman, the 'God' identified with the ultimate all-inclusive reality, plays a game of hide and seek with itself at many levels. In this game, called Lila, Brahman plays with individual "separations", such as people, birds, rocks, subatomic particles, stars, galaxies, and other features of the world both separately and together, while forgetting that the game is being played. At the end of each session, Brahman is said to wake up, cease the game, applaud itself, and resume the game all over again. The state of wakefulness and enlightenment of an individual is knowing one is simply playing a game;, "good" and "evil" are merely part of the game, so are all the differences that separate individual humans, different religions and philosophies, that one is simply acting as a human being, having an illusion of being locked within a physical body and separated from the whole of the Reality. The illusion ultimately ends. Then the game restarts.Vishnu
September 22, 2014
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Theodicy has not been, nor will ever bee solved by the mind of man, as long as one clings to the Classical God. You can't have both, that is, the Classical God and an gap-free explanation of evil. And if you have a gap, you don't have an explanation. All the attempts and wrangling in all corners are silly to guys like me that see that this is true. Give it up and have the faith of a child. For such is the Kingdom of Heaven.Vishnu
September 22, 2014
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Graham2 and phoodoo Please, keep in mind posts #57 through #61 are not jokes. I'm serious about having a number of questions to ask. See, I'm not a biology scientist. Actually, I'm not a scientist at all, and very unlikely to become one in my lifetime. That's an unreachable to me level. Well above my pay grade. My only experience is working on engineering design software development projects for a number of years. Hence you'll find my questions very simple and kind of childish sometimes. But they are genuinely serious questions, not jokes. I hope you understand this now. Thanks.Dionisio
September 22, 2014
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#59 link correction Graham2, The link in post #59 was broken. Sorry, my fault. Here's the correct link to the referred thread: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/#comment-515383Dionisio
September 22, 2014
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#57 Dear all, The invitation in post #57 is open to everyone, without exclusions. The more of us who can work on that, the faster we could get the answers to all the outstanding questions and the new questions that might arise when answering the currently known questions. Just write a post in that thread expressing your willingness to help and the questions will come your way. Really appreciate it! :) Just to help you relax, "I don't know"*** is an acceptable answer too. :) (***) synonymous like "I have no clue" or "I have no idea" are also acceptable answers. :)Dionisio
September 22, 2014
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#49 Graham2
phoodoo: Intelligent Design is about science I think we can forget that. This site lost any claim to the practice of impartial science long long ago. But I cant stop coming back, and just gazing in wonder.
Here's what I wrote in post #57, which is for you too:
I think I see your point and understand your concern. Hey, I have good news for you. Here’s an opportunity to stay away from these boring philosophical discussion threads. Do you want to talk pure science? Ok, then join me in this thread: https://uncommondescent.com.....ent-515383 and help me to answer a few questions I have there. Don’t worry, they are very easy questions. Piece of cake. After all, science has it all figured out by now, right? Most probably you will answer those questions in a blink. They have to do with simple stuff, like the cell fate specification and determination mechanisms operating on intrinsic asymmetric mitosis. That includes things like the mitotic spindle checkpoints, precise centrosomes segregation, microtubules/kinetochores connection tension. All with as many details as one can think of. I’m sure you will enjoy it, specially knowing you’re going to help other folks, who are not as gifted as you seem to be, so they too can understand that subject and move on with their studies. Being charitable makes one feel good, doesn’t it? Many folks in this site will highly appreciate your assistance with answering those questions. Note that out of the 426 posts currently in that thread, maybe only 400 of them have to do with the issues referred to above. I look forward to hearing back from you on this invitation to take advantage of this exciting opportunity to help others. Thank you. :) PS. I could associate each question with the post # it relates to. Would that work? You may suggest a different approach if you want to. Thanks. I’m really glad someone is finally willing to help with this. :)
Dionisio
September 22, 2014
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#49 Graham2
phoodoo: Intelligent Design is about science I think we can forget that. This site lost any claim to the practice of impartial science long long ago. But I cant stop coming back, and just gazing in wonder.
Hey, post #57 is for you too! Enjoy it buddy! :)Dionisio
September 22, 2014
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#46 phoodoo
This site shouldn’t be that one.
I think I see your point and understand your concern. Hey, I have good news for you. Here's an opportunity to stay away from these boring philosophical discussion threads. Do you want to talk pure science? Ok, then join me in this thread: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/#comment-515383 and help me to answer a few questions I have there. Don't worry, they are very easy questions. Piece of cake. After all, science has it all figured out by now, right? Most probably you will answer those questions in a blink. They have to do with simple stuff, like the cell fate specification and determination mechanisms operating on intrinsic asymmetric mitosis. That includes things like the mitotic spindle checkpoints, precise centrosomes segregation, microtubules/kinetochores connection tension. All with as many details as one can think of. I'm sure you will enjoy it, specially knowing you're going to help other folks, who are not as gifted as you seem to be, so they too can understand that subject and move on with their studies. Being charitable makes one feel good, doesn't it? Many folks in this site will highly appreciate your assistance with answering those questions. Note that out of the 426 posts currently in that thread, maybe only 400 of them have to do with the issues referred to above. I look forward to hearing back from you on this invitation to take advantage of this exciting opportunity to help others. Thank you. :) PS. I could associate each question with the post # it relates to. Would that work? You may suggest a different approach if you want to. Thanks. I'm really glad someone is finally willing to help with this. :)Dionisio
September 22, 2014
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Dr Torley (and whoever wishes to join in!) If God has perfect foreknowledge of all our choices before we make them, how to explain Esther? Was the prophet lying when he told her that God had prepared plan B to save the Jews in case she didn't step up? Did God deceive the prophet? If the answer to the last two questions is No, why in the world would God prepare a plan B since He knew it would not be needed?anthropic
September 22, 2014
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Graham2 49 So an infinite number of universes where anything can happen without reason is science? ;)anthropic
September 22, 2014
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Hi everyone, Got to go now, but I'll be back in 24 hours and will attempt to reply to readers' comments then. Cheers.vjtorley
September 22, 2014
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Hi Barry Arrington, Thank you very much for your post. By the way, I appreciated the quote from Romans 8. Just to be perfectly clear: I agree with you that God has perfect foreknowledge of our choices. How He has this knowledge is a mystery, although personally I favor the so-called "Boethian" solution, which says that God is timelessly informed of everything that goes on in creation, like a watcher on a high hill. A lot of Christians have different views of how God's foreknowledge works, and some (like yourself) prefer to leave it up to God to reveal this mystery to us in the hereafter. The view I was criticizing was the Molinist view (which Dr. William Craig happens to accept) that God not only knows what I will do, but what I would do, in every possible situation. On this view, as I understand it, humans possess libertarian freedom, but when God decides to create this world rather than that one, He thereby guarantees that I will make a certain choice, but at the same time, make it freely. Personally, I don't buy this attempt to square free will and foreknowledge, because a God Who knows what I would do in every possible situation and Who then decides to actualize a particular situation and place me in it, thereby determines my choice and thus negates my freedom. That was what I meant by my reference to psychological determinism: if there is one and only one choice that I would make in each possible situation, then it really doesn't sound like I'm free. If God did possess that kind of counterfactual foreknowledge, however, then it seems to me that He could (in principle) command human beings to inflict pain on others for their own ultimate good - and if that were the case, then we can no longer say that God could never command someone to torture anyone else, unless we defined "torture" in the strict sense of inflicting pain purely for the fun of inflicting pain. The problem I see with that narrow definition is that it would mean that a wicked and/or crazy person who abducts someone and inflicts pain on them would not be guilty of torture unless it were established that his primary motive was sadistic. If he cited some other motive, he'd be off the hook. But as I've said, perhaps I'm missing something in all this. I wrote this post in haste (it only took me a couple of hours) as a "kite" - a kind of exploratory posing of the question. It was partly inspired by reading this one by Dr. Lydia McGrew, which is well worth perusing and mulling over: http://lydiaswebpage.blogspot.com/2014/08/no-magic-bullet-copans-insufficient.html Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.vjtorley
September 22, 2014
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Querius, Yes, I get that is a topic about ethics. My question is why? The websites stated purpose is "serving the Intelligent Design Community." So can you blame people for assuming that intelligent design is a religious belief, when websites that purport to serve the community spend so much talking about bible passages, and what God must be like? Not to mention the fact that there can never be a right answer, its all just personal assumptions. Its the exact same logic Coyne and Dawkins make for their nonsense-they want to promote atheism, so they do it by ignoring science. Intelligent Design is a logical scientific argument. It is not a philosophy. It has zero to do with what God must be like. Its no wonder so many people are confused.phoodoo
September 22, 2014
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phoodoo and Graham2,
It had to happen sooner or later. Professor Jerry Coyne has identified what he sees as an inconsistency in Dr. William Lane Craig’s Divine Command theory of ethics . . .
The subject of the OP is the basis of ethics. Most people acknowledge that there are ethics issues in biology, and it should come as no shock to you that ethics in biology is not based on biology or any other science, but rather is an externally imposed restriction on the sciences. Unless of course you're of the Dr. Mengele persuasion, favoring no ethical restrictions. -QQuerius
September 21, 2014
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BA RE 28
Christian X is a Calvinist. He believes in the concept of sovereign election or predestination. He believes that from the beginning of the universe God in his sovereignty intended for him to become a Christian. He believes in the “I” of TULIP, that the God’s grace is irresistible, which means he had no choice in the matter. This leaves little room for free will.
Actually no room for free will but lots of room for free choice. Vividvividbleau
September 21, 2014
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phoodoo: Intelligent Design is about science I think we can forget that. This site lost any claim to the practice of impartial science long long ago. But I cant stop coming back, and just gazing in wonder.Graham2
September 21, 2014
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phoodoo 46: "Is this a bible study class or a site on the science of biological origins?" Without a particular notion of God as a rational, law-giving, orderly Being who created a rational, law-following, orderly Universe, science would never have gotten off the ground. We know that because it didn't, except in Christian Europe. Even today science is grounded on these concepts. We can never absolutely prove them, yet we must assume them to be so. And let us be honest: Occam's razor says that God makes far more sense than an infinite multiverse with uncaused effects running rampant. Yet people who cling to the multiverse as a dodge around fine-tuning claim that they are the rational ones. Sorry, but I don't buy it.anthropic
September 21, 2014
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BA RE 28
I think we have a hint about the truth in Romans 8: “those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.” If predestination were the only concept in view here, the comment about his foreknowledge would be superfluous;
I would suggest a word study on foreknowledge in the context used in R 8 would be helpful. The Greek word is "proginosko" I think that's it I don't have my notes at the moment. The " knowing" is the same type of knowing we find when Scripture declares that God "knew" Abraham" or Adam "knew his wife" more basically to foreknow is to fore love. It is to love beforehand and is translated as such in several Bible translations. Also this fore knowledge is about a whom not a what they will do. It is a fore loving of individuals. I see nothing superfluous in " For those whom He loved beforehand He predestined.... Vividvividbleau
September 21, 2014
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I think this is a very good example of why Intelligent Design often gets a bad name in public discourse. Not a single person on this site, or on the planet knows what God is like, or what he thinks or doesn't think, what he expects or doesn't expect, or what he is or isn't capable of. People who claim to know this, invariably offend those who are equally sure certain individuals don't have a special pipeline to truth that others don't own. Maybe God is sinister, maybe he is flawed, maybe he is limited in what he can do. Who knows? No one, that is the answer. Is this a bible study class or a site on the science of biological origins? I think you end up looking just a silly as Jerry Coyne does when you insist on mixing the two. I don't think its that hard to find sites that want to preach religious doctrine. This site shouldn't be that one. Intelligent Design is about science not religion-no matter what Coyne wants to believe.phoodoo
September 21, 2014
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Dionisio said:
Yes, there’s an absolute moral law, hence an absolute law giver. All the other relative, subjective stuff you referred to before were irrelevant. Glad to see you finally agreed.
I think we're talking past each other or something. I have said many times in this forum that morality must refer to an objective good, and that some moral statements are self-evidently true. Regardless of how one believes that objective morality is instantiated - natural law morality (an intrinsic characteristic of god), written in scripture, commanded by god - it is still subject to the subjective, fallible and erroneous faculties and interpretations by humans as they attempt to understand and adhere to it.William J Murray
September 21, 2014
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#43 William J Murray
... but without the premise that there is, in fact, an objective, intrinsic good that matters, existence makes no sense and no argument here is worth making.
Yes, there's an absolute moral law, hence an absolute law giver. All the other relative, subjective stuff you referred to before were irrelevant. Glad to see you finally agreed. :)Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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WJM said:
I believe our conscience is able to sense the moral quality of our existence, similar to how our other senses work.
Dionisio asks:
Really? How?
I don't know how; I only know that it does. I experience the sense of conscience. I don't know how my other senses work either, but I do know that they work. I let my conscience, tempered by reason, with the humility of knowledge of my own fallibility guide me in navigating the moral landscape to the best of my ability.
A cannibal may not see any problem with eating another person, though to you and me it’s beyond horrible just to think about it.
Well, it's really not horrible for me to think about it. I don't really think there's anything innately immoral about cannibalism. I think it's pretty disgusting and sickening, but that's more cultural than anything I suspect.
Joseph Mengele apparently didn’t have any problems with doing what he did. Actually the Nazi party considered a highly civilized duty to get rid of the inferior races. How does that relate to your statement quoted above? Am I missing something?
All of our faculties and senses are fallible, open to interpretation and misuse, cognitive biases and outright denial. I don't see your point. Because some people, even large numbers of people willfully do evil things or make mistakes doesn't mean there is no actual right thing, no objective good. I agree that morality is a often a difficult to understand and navigate landscape, but without the premise that there is, in fact, an objective, intrinsic good that matters, existence makes no sense and no argument here is worth making.William J Murray
September 21, 2014
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Is chaos theory deterministic or probabilistic? If this is hard to fathom, how much harder is it to understand God? -QQuerius
September 21, 2014
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"In Job, the worms have a better understanding of humans then we have of God. " If Job said this Job was an idiot.Mung
September 21, 2014
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BA 28: "I believe the two views cannot be reconciled. Either I have a choice or I do not have a choice. Either God is absolutely sovereign or he is not. I personally believe I have a choice. I also believe God is absolutely sovereign. I affirm both propositions, because they are both affirmed in scripture." I agree. To me, the Middle Knowledge or Molinist position (God knows all possible choices and their consequences in advance without taking away our freedom to make choices) makes the most sense. Or perhaps a better way of putting it is that we can freely choose, but we cannot freely choose the consequences of our choice. Queen Esther was told that perhaps she had gained her position for "such a time as this", to save the Jewish people. But she was also told that if she chose not to intervene, salvation for the Jews would come from another place. Free choice, yes. But God knows all our possible choices and may intervene in the consequences, depending.anthropic
September 21, 2014
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#33 JDH You got my vote on that. :)Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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#35 William J Murray
I consider what is good to be a discernible quality, and that our conscience is our means of making such discernments. As with other senses, it is fallible and open to interpretation. However, some things are self-evidently true moral statements (such as, it is immoral to gratuitously torture children), and it is my view that from such self-evidently true moral statements necessarily true, conditionally true and generally true moral statements can be found.
"I consider" "it is my view" Joseph Mengele could have said those words to justify what he did. The same applies to many cases in history.Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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#35 William J Murray
I believe our conscience is able to sense the moral quality of our existence, similar to how our other senses work.
Really? How? A cannibal may not see any problem with eating another person, though to you and me it's beyond horrible just to think about it. Joseph Mengele apparently didn't have any problems with doing what he did. Actually the Nazi party considered a highly civilized duty to get rid of the inferior races. How does that relate to your statement quoted above? Am I missing something?Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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Silver Asiatic Please, don't take me wrong. I'm for education too. Big time. Actually, I enjoy learning, and think we all could benefit from true serious education. My point was that education 'per se' does not guarantee morality or wisdom. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele True wisdom comes from the source of wisdom. Morality standard must be absolute, above all possible subjective standards, for it to work in any situation. Absolute moral law can come from an absolute law giver.Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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Dionisio said:
Agree, you can’t prove it, hence your statement could be false in absolute terms. Therefore, God may give commands, according with the purpose of His sovereign will. Arguing won’t change this.
Arguing isn't about changing what actually exists, but rather is about trying to come to the best conclusion about what actually exists. Dionisio said:
Which means that what you wrote is not true in absolute terms.
It may or may not be true in absolute terms. I didn't claim it to be true in absolute terms. Virtually all assertions I make about anything are provisional in nature.
Where does that person get “his innate sense of morality” from? How?
I believe our conscience is able to sense the moral quality of our existence, similar to how our other senses work. I consider what is good to be a discernible quality, and that our conscience is our means of making such discernments. As with other senses, it is fallible and open to interpretation. However, some things are self-evidently true moral statements (such as, it is immoral to gratuitously torture children), and it is my view that from such self-evidently true moral statements necessarily true, conditionally true and generally true moral statements can be found.William J Murray
September 21, 2014
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