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Optimus, replying to KN on ID as ideology, summarises the case for design in the natural world

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The following reply by Optimus to KN in the TSZ thread, is far too good not to headline as an excellent summary of the case for design as a scientifically legitimate view, not mere  “Creationism in a cheap tuxedo”  ideology motivated and driven by anti-materialism and/or a right-wing, theocratic, culture war mentality commonly ascribed to “Creationism” by its objectors:

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>> KN

It’s central to the ideological glue that holds together “the ID movement” that the following are all conflated:Darwin’s theories; neo-Darwinism; modern evolutionary theory; Epicurean materialistic metaphysics; Enlightenment-inspired secularism. (Maybe I’m missing one or two pieces of the puzzle.) In my judgment, a mind incapable of making the requisite distinctions hardly deserves to be taken seriously.

I think your analysis of the driving force behind ID is way off base. That’s not to say that persons who advocate ID (including myself) aren’t sometimes guilty of sloppy use of language, nor am I making the claim that the modern synthetic theory of evolution is synonymous with materialism or secularism. Having made that acknowledgement, though, it is demonstrably true that (1) metaphysical presuppostions absolutely undergird much of the modern synthetic theory. This is especially true with regard to methodological naturalism (of course, MN is distinct from ontological naturalism, but if, as some claim, science describes the whole of reality, then reality becomes coextensive with that which is natural). Methodological naturalism is not the end product of some experiment or series of experiments. On the contrary it is a ground rule that excludes a priori any explanation that might be classed as “non-natural”. Some would argue that it is necessary for practical reasons, after all we don’t want people atributing seasonal thunderstorms to Thor, do we? However, science could get along just as well as at present (even better in my view) if the ground rule is simply that any proposed causal explanation must be rigorously defined and that it shall not be accepted except in light of compelling evidence. Problem solved! Though some fear “supernatural explanation” (which is highly definitional) overwhelming the sciences, such concerns are frequently oversold. Interestingly, the much maligned Michael Behe makes very much the same point in his 1996 Darwin’s Black Box:

If my graduate student came into my office and said that the angel of death killed her bacterial culture, I would be disinclined to believe her…. Science has learned over the past half millenium that the universe operates with great regularity the great majority of the time, and that simple laws and predictable behavior explain most physical phenomena.
Darwin’s Black Box pg. 241

If Behe’s expression is representative of the ID community (which I would venture it is), then why the death-grip on methodological naturalism? I suggest that its power lies in its exclusionary function. It rules out ID right from the start, before even any discussions about the emprical data are to be had. MN means that ID is persona non grata, thus some sort of evolutionary explanation must win by default. (2) In Darwin’s own arguments in favor of his theory he rely heavily on metaphysical assumptions about what God would or wouldn’t do. Effectively he uses special creation by a deity as his null hypothesis, casting his theory as the explanatory alternative. Thus the adversarial relationship between Darwin (whose ideas are foundational to the MST) and theism is baked right into The Origin. To this very day, “bad design” arguments in favor of evolution still employ theological reasoning. (3) The modern synthetic theory is often used in the public debate as a prop for materialism (which I believe you acknowledged in another comment). How many times have we heard the famed Richard Dawkins quote to the effect that ‘Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist’? Very frequently evolutionary theory is impressed into service to show the superfluousness of theism or to explain away religion as an erstwhile useful phenomenon produced by natural selection (or something to that effect). Hardly can it be ignored that the most enthusiastic boosters of evolutionary theory tend to fall on the atheist/materialist/reductionist side of the spectrum (e.g. Eugenie Scott, Michael Shermer, P.Z. Meyers, Jerry Coyne, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Peter Atkins, Daniel Dennett, Will Provine). My point simply stated is that it is not at all wrong-headed to draw a connection between the modern synthetic theory and the aforementioned class of metaphysical views. Can it be said that the modern synthetic theory (am I allowed just to write Neo-Darwinism for short?) doesn’t mandate nontheistic metaphysics? Sure. But it’s just as true that they often accompany each other.

In chalking up ID to a massive attack of confused cognition, you overlook the substantive reasons why many (including a number of PhD scientists) consider ID to be a cogent explanation of many features of our universe (especially the bioshpere):

-Functionally-specified complex information [FSCI] present in cells in prodigdious quantities
-Sophisticated mechanical systems at both the micro and macro level in organisms (many of which exhibit IC)
-Fine-tuning of fundamental constants
-Patterns of stasis followed by abrupt appearance (geologically speaking) in the fossil record

In my opinion the presence of FSCI/O and complex biological machinery are very powerful indicators of intelligent agency, judging from our uniform and repeated experience. Also note that none of the above reasons employ theological presuppositions. They flow naturally, inexorably from the data. And, yes, we are all familiar with the objection that organisms are distinct from artificial objects, the implication being that our knowledge from the domain of man-made objects doesn’t carry over to biology. I think this is fallacious. Everyone acknowledges that matter inhabiting this universe is made up of atoms, which in turn are composed of still other particles. This is true of all matter, not just “natural” things, not just “artificial” things – everything. If such is the case, then must not the same laws apply to all matter with equal force? From whence comes the false dichotomy that between “natural” and “artificial”? If design can be discerned in one case, why not in the other?

To this point we have not even addressed the shortcomings of the modern synthetic theory (excepting only its metaphysical moorings). They are manifold, however – evidential shortcomings (e.g. lack of empirical support), unjustified extrapolations, question-begging assumptions, ad hoc rationalizations, tolerance of “just so” stories, narratives imposed on data instead of gleaned from data, conflict with empirical data from generations of human experience with breeding, etc. If at the end of the day you truly believe that all ID has going for it is a culture war mentality, then may I politely suggest that you haven’t been paying attention.>>

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Well worth reflecting on, and Optimus deserves to be headlined. END

Comments
nightlight, can you share your definition of science here? While trying to make sense of your post at #101, I was unable to find any search results for "algorithmically effective postulates", "algorithmically effective form", or "algorithmically effective elements". algorithmically effective postulates algorithmically effective form algorithmically effective elements How does your definition of science address the demarcation problem? Also, a few questions would help the rest of us gauge where you stand on design as an objective phenomenon: 1) Do you agree that chance and physical necessity are insufficient to account for designed objects such as airplanes, buildings, and computers? 2) Do you agree that intelligent agency is a causal phenomenon which can produce objects that are qualitatively distinguishable from the products of chance and necessity, such as those resulting from geological processes? 3) Do you think there are properties that designed objects can have in common which set them apart from objects explicable by chance and physical necessity?Chance Ratcliff
March 29, 2013
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So basically you have no empirical evidence whatsoever towards the basic questions I asked so as to empirical support your position, (particularly on the de novo origination of functional information by what are perceived to be purely natural/material processes). What exactly are you asking i.e. what is "purely natural/material process" ? If it is what I call that, then the answer is trivial - cells and humans are 'pure natural/material processes' (keep in mind that this is panpsychism, where mind stuff is not unique to humans or to live organisms), they generate code and symbolic information. Since you are dividing world some other way, you must be asking whether someone has a setup in a vat where life (or something like that) arises from inorganic matter. I don't think anyone has figured out how to do that. As to getting down to control or explore Planckian networks directly, that field hasn't matured enough yet to enter experimental phase. As a matter of principle, a network of that type can compute anything that is computable without anyone explicitly programming it. Its intelligence (computational capacity plus programs) is additive, hence by starting at small enough scale for build up, you can have as intelligent system as needed to match any target level (such as that needed to produce life), starting with as dumb lowest level components as one wants. Obviously this is not mainstream biology, although some people in that field (Shapiro, Kauffman and many others at Santa Fe Institute) do follow this line (intelligent biochemical networks). Similarly in physics, this is not the mainstream line either, but some notable folks are working on pregeometric Planckian level physics. But no one that I know of has been following this particular path of combining the two in the manner I have been describing, hence this approach is even more ahead of its time than the two separate green shoots above. Having followed these fields (Planckian scale physics, biochemical networks, neural networks) for a while, I see all needed ingredients with required capabilities and properties, and how they would fit together to solve all 3 related problems, fine tuning of physical constants + origin of life + evolution, with a single coherent model. It's just matter of time before someone working in any of these fields for living, with access to sufficient research funding, stumbles upon the same combination of ideas (which are not that far fetched) and makes it all work. There is nothing that in principle would block the path sketched in the earlier posts. I've seen reams upon reams of words from Darwinists, (generated by the imagination/intelligence of their own `minds'), who claim basically the same thing you are claiming! As such, what makes you any different, or any less absurd, from them? Any time I debate those folks (as I did at length few years ago in talk.origins), we clash a lot worse than I do with ID folks (who also tend to be more polite than the first group). That's how I know. It is true, though, that my position is contrary to either group and you probably just see the gap on your side. But there is an even bigger gap on the other side (think of a triangle, with each position being one corner).nightlight
March 29, 2013
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So basically you have no empirical evidence whatsoever towards the basic questions I asked so as to empirical support your position, (particularly on the de novo origination of functional information by what are perceived to be purely natural/material processes). And as such why should I take any of your lengthy word play as anything other than lengthy word play? I've seen reams upon reams of words from Darwinists, (generated by the imagination/intelligence of their own 'minds'), who claim basically the same thing you are claiming! As such, what makes you any different, or any less absurd, from them?bornagain77
March 29, 2013
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bornagain77 #99: And I think that your beliefs are absurd, on par with Darwinian beliefs, especially given the fact that the most sure thing that you can know about yourself is that you have a mind! Content of science is not identical to the content of human experience. You don't need postulates and logical deductions to experience happiness or anger or see redness... Science does. If you can't put something into algorithmically effective postulates (formulas, programs), or deduce/compute from some such postulates, it is just not science. How come you are not complaining that your consciousness (or any consciousness) isn't encoded into the CPU of your computer you're reading this on. However real it is to you, your consciousness is just not a piece of Windows or Mac OSX code, or anything that can be expressed as piece of such code, to run on your computer. Hence, you can't have it running there. At present, no one has figured out how to put 'consciousness' into the algorithimcally effective form to be a useful tool of science. You can't just stick some label on it, give it a magic wand to do anything it wants, and declare it a scientific concept. That wouldn't work if you were to stick sonmething like that into your computer, either. So what? Your mind can't run on your PC as a program. What kind of problem is that? So my earlier point about ID is that it is to become part of legitimate natural science it would be better served by algorithmically effective elements, such as computer-like intelligent agency like Plnackian networks, rather than by algorithmically undefined concepts such as 'mind' or 'deity'. When someone figures out how to reformulate any of that in the algorithmic form, then no problem.nightlight
March 29, 2013
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bornagain77 #97: So basically you believe that consciousness is embedded within matter/energy? i.e. a rock `thinks' or is `aware' on some level in your view? That was covered in post #58, in the description on what would one expect based on this model to experience after dying, as decay progresses from organism, to organs, to tissues, to cells, all the way down to molecules. In short, the process would appear as sequence of awakenings into ever more hyper-real, more vivid qualia (colors, sounds, smells...), sharper, more focused, quicker but more narrow consciousness. The previous phases (including our daily consciousness) would appear as a dream from the next inner level of progression down the hierarchy of networks. At the end, it is down 'with the crew', with the mind stuff of the Planckian network which was operating that 'heavy machinery', your body, which has just been dismantled for recycling of the parts. All knowledge and wisdom accumulated during life is booked into the libraries for reuse as well. At this level, running now at full throttle in native mode on the 10^80 more powerful computer than our human multilevel level simulation, one second of our time appears infinitely long. Besides the above path followed by nearly everyone, there is also the exceptional path upon death, which advances in the opposite direction and is traversed by the very few who have followed the ancient immortality recipe -- these humans re-encode (or unfold) the 'self' pattern from its fragile, relatively short lived network of neurons into the 'Self' pattern, unfolding in a larger, more permanent network of social organism (or some of its subnetworks such as religions, or schools or movements in arts, sciences, technologies,...). In that case the 'self' is phased out (ego death) well before the biological death, while the new live, conscious 'Self' is phased in. For the 'Self' the biological death of its little seed pattern (the original biological human who set off down the exceptional path) is an unexceptional event, no different than a death of a single cell is to the fetus, infant, child,... that originated it. The transition onto the excceptional path, which is analogous to egg fertilization, is usually called enlightenment (or 'cosmic consciousness' in the Bucke's analysis of this phenomenon; or being born again). It is characterized by the extatic bliss (analogous to the bliss associated with regular fertilization), ego death and opening of the gates for the journey along the exceptional path. The 'Self' pattern (which is a live, conscious being) is not some kind of clone or a personality cult or legacy or transhumanist's computer recording of the 'self' pattern. The two patterns are as different as the human is different from the DNA from which it unfolded. The consciousness of the 'Self' being, while more subtle, less intense and vivid in its sense of reality, is far richer in its spectrum of conscious experiences, integrating aspects of qualia of all the humans and other entities (non-human forms of consciousness) enfolded into its pattern. For example, when a Mozart's concerto floods you with a wave of joy and you forget yourself, becoming 'it' for a moment, there is an angelic being around you, enfolding you into its big heart, drinking that same joy from the same fountain, through you. Multiple "Self' patterns coexist and live simultaneously within the same social organism, permeating each other like waves on a lake, sharing for a moment the same water molecules and their oscillations, as each 'pursues its own happiness' (i.e. optimizes its network to its net rewards - punishments). Since the task of these live entities is to work out the harmonization puzzle at a next higher scale, just as each human organism is doing it at its scale, the conflicts arise in this 'angelic' realm (deities in ancient religions) that we perceive on our individual level as 'wars' (religious, cultural, political, ethnic, national,... ) i.e. the "angelic" entities are by no means some kind of idyllic beautiful, all-loving beings. As 'Self' pattern matures, there may come a moment when everything is aligned just right and a right human is enfolded into the pattern, a special resonance is aroused between this human and the seed pattern of the little 'self' long gone, which was carried implicitly by the 'Self' as a kind of holographic, spread out encoding that suddenly struck the perfect decoder for this hologram. In some religions this refocusing (from 'Self' to 'self'), resonant phenomenon is referred to as 'god becoming human' (or a demigod of ancient religions). The result is the long gone little 'self' reconstituting as individual biological human again, fully alive in a new fresh body, experiencing long forgotten intense super-real consciousness and super-vivid qualia, albeit within the narrow spectrum of a single human. As this new fragile human runs down his clock, the new 'Self' is spawned to carry the pattern to another far away resonant refocusing, or rebirth as a biological human. If so, who or what brought all the matter/energy into being at the big bang? i.e. did matter-energy think itself into existence before it existed? There is always the 'last opened' Russian doll, no matter how many you opened. As to what is inside that one, it may take some tricky twists and tinkering before it splits open and the next 'last opened' shows itself. Hence, you are always at the 'last opened' one. In other words, each theory has set of givens, the postulates, which don't tell you how did they come into existence, what's the go of them. For that you need another deeper theory, etc.nightlight
March 29, 2013
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"I think that this type of computational notion of intelligent agency would have served ID a lot better than the scientifically undefined ‘mind’ or other concepts that don’t have counterparts in natural science." And I think that your beliefs are absurd, on par with Darwinian beliefs, especially given the fact that the most sure thing that you can know about yourself is that you have a mind!bornagain77
March 29, 2013
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Optimus #77: But what if we see design in the very fabric of the cosmos itself? The constants of gravity, electromagnetic force, strong and weak nuclear force? Now aliens are out of the question. They can hardly take credit for designing the very universe in which they live. What recourse do we have left? Creating a universe would seem to require an intelligence that is external and causally prior to the universe. Nope, that doesn't follow. As explained in #19 and #35, with adaptable networks you can have a form of intelligence which is additive, i.e. you start with relatively 'dumb' elements (nodes & links), using simple rules to change their states and modify links (unsupervised learning), which would no more of cost in assumptions than regular physical postulates. Then you allow these 'dumb' elements to replicate, where new nodes can randomly connect into the network. You end up with increasing more powerful self-programming distributed computer operating with the same type of algorithms as human brain or neural networks. As noted earlier, if you start these elemental nodes and links at Planck scale (10^-35 m), by augmenting some of the pregeometry models of physics (e.g. Wolfram's Planckian networks, Penrose's spinor networks) with the adaptable links, rather than having fixed link strengths, the resulting distributed self-programming computer would be 10^80 times more powerful than the best computer technology we could construct out of our elementary particles (which is itself a 6-7 orders of magnitude ahead of out current technology). That level of intelligence ought to suffice for designing biochemical networks of the cells, which themselves are intelligent networks, computing the tasks of molecular engineering, whether for cellular reproduction, metabolism, defense,... or large scale DNA transformations for evolution. The nice extra benefit of going down to fundamental level of physics is that fine tuning of physical laws and constants is automatic. Namely, our "elementary" particles in this type of models are a large scale 'technology' designed by the Planckian networks to extend the coordination & harmonization of their computing networks to larger scale computers, to tap into the economies of scale. Hence, by definition our physics would be designed by them, to fit well with the task of building larger scale computing networks, such as cellular biochemical networks, organisms, human technologies. This fit would be there for the same reason we design our keyboards to work well with our fingers, or to interface with computers. All such 'fine tuning' in our realm is result of deliberate design as we build up our technology. The same goes with physical laws seen as 'technology' of underlying Planckian networks. Note also that Planckian networks are pre-geometric, i.e. they are not in space-time. They have only links and nodes as fundamental entities, with hop count between nodes being the sole distance (or space related) concept in the system. The activity patterns arising on this network as result of its computations would on the larger scale appear and behave as physical particles in regular space-time (analogous to gliders in Conway game of Life). I think that this type of computational notion of intelligent agency would have served ID a lot better than the scientifically undefined 'mind' or other concepts that don't have counterparts in natural science. Natural science has no a priori problem with having intelligent agency as an element. But the fundamental elements one can legitimately bring into science via postulates have to do something in the algorithmic way (they need to be of algorithmic nature, such as equations or programs), not do things by waving a magic wand and puff into existence whatever is needed.nightlight
March 29, 2013
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Okie Dokie - "panpsychism" is the view that all matter has a mental aspect - So basically you believe that consciousness is embedded within matter/energy? i.e. a rock 'thinks' or is 'aware' on some level in your view? i.e. you do not think that consciousness exists outside of matter??? If so, who or what brought all the matter/energy into being at the big bang? i.e. did matter-energy think itself into existence before it existed?
“All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” - Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Boston - paper delivered at Stephen Hawking's 70th birthday party (Characterized as 'Worst Birthday Present Ever') https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/vilenkins-verdict-all-the-evidence-we-have-says-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning/ Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning - April 2012 Excerpt: Cosmologists use the mathematical properties of eternity to show that although universe may last forever, it must have had a beginning.,,, They go on to show that cyclical universes and universes of eternal inflation both expand in this way. So they cannot be eternal in the past and must therefore have had a beginning. "Although inflation may be eternal in the future, it cannot be extended indefinitely to the past," they say. They treat the emergent model of the universe differently, showing that although it may seem stable from a classical point of view, it is unstable from a quantum mechanical point of view. "A simple emergent universe model...cannot escape quantum collapse," they say. The conclusion is inescapable. "None of these scenarios can actually be past-eternal," say Mithani and Vilenkin. Since the observational evidence is that our universe is expanding, then it must also have been born in the past. A profound conclusion (albeit the same one that lead to the idea of the big bang in the first place). http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27793/ The Universe Had a Beginning - Alexander Vilenkin - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QSZNpLzcCw
As well nightlight, in your view of reality, should not a person who was missing large portions of their brain, or of their body, be less of a conscious 'person' than a 'person who had a whole brain/body?
Case for the Existence of the Soul - (Argument from Divisibility) - JP Moreland, PhD- video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SJ4_ZC0xpM&feature=player_detailpage#t=2304s Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: "Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html Strange but True: When Half a Brain Is Better than a Whole One - May 2007 Excerpt: Most Hopkins hemispherectomy patients are five to 10 years old. Neurosurgeons have performed the operation on children as young as three months old. Astonishingly, memory and personality develop normally. ,,, Another study found that children that underwent hemispherectomies often improved academically once their seizures stopped. "One was champion bowler of her class, one was chess champion of his state, and others are in college doing very nicely," Freeman says. Of course, the operation has its downside: "You can walk, run—some dance or skip—but you lose use of the hand opposite of the hemisphere that was removed. You have little function in that arm and vision on that side is lost," Freeman says. Remarkably, few other impacts are seen. ,,, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole
As well nightlight, in your view of reality, if you do not actually believe in a transcendent Intelligence apart from matter i.e. God, it seems that on your view of reality that you have the same exact empirical difficulty that Darwinists have in that you ZERO empirical evidence for the de novo origination of functional information arising by what are perceived to be purely natural processes. I know of no such evidence! Perhaps you can be the first to present some evidence to the bloggers of UD!
The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency - Dr David L. Abel - November 2010 Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.”,,, After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” http://www-qa.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Insufficiency.html When Theory and Experiment Collide — April 16th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: Based on our experimental observations and on calculations we made using a published population model [3], we estimated that Darwin’s mechanism would need a truly staggering amount of time—a trillion trillion years or more—to accomplish the seemingly subtle change in enzyme function that we studied. http://www.biologicinstitute.org/post/18022460402/when-theory-and-experiment-collide Minimal Complexity Relegates Life Origin Models To Fanciful Speculation - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: Based on the structural requirements of enzyme activity Axe emphatically argued against a global-ascent model of the function landscape in which incremental improvements of an arbitrary starting sequence "lead to a globally optimal final sequence with reasonably high probability". For a protein made from scratch in a prebiotic soup, the odds of finding such globally optimal solutions are infinitesimally small- somewhere between 1 in 10exp140 and 1 in 10exp164 for a 150 amino acid long sequence if we factor in the probabilities of forming peptide bonds and of incorporating only left handed amino acids.
bornagain77
March 29, 2013
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Sorry for the accidental bolded block of text above, I missed a b-tag to close.nightlight
March 29, 2013
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bornagain77 #93: I really lost interest in looking up the precise evidence to refute you. Good idea, since there is none. Just the fact that as of few days ago, new experimental design proposals are coming out on how to achieve finally the 'loophole free' BI violations, ought to tell you all by itself what the status of the problem is. Few times I had challenged entire sci.physics.research, which moderated news group for researchers, as well as the PhysicsForums, and after weeks of debates in each case, nothing has ever turned up even close to refutation of any of the challenges (theoretical & experimental aspects). Interestingly, a fellow physicist has recently cited some of my posts there (as "nightlight") in his papers, regarding the unexpected and intriguing connection I found between Barut's SFED and mathematical technique Carleman Linearization (CL), which is a technique for converting finite number of non-linear differential equations into infinite number of linear differential equations. Namely, it turns out that Barut's SFED is an accidental rediscovery of a simple form of CL. The interesting aspect is that CL can be reformulated so that it formally looks like quantum field theory (QFT), which was done so that techniques developed in QFT can be reused in solving non-linear problems in applied math via CL. But the connection of CL with SFED allows one to reinterpret conventional QED (quantum electrodynamics; the theory behind all those BI violation experiments on photons) as a linearized form of classical Maxwell-Dirac equations. That means that QED is a pure classical theory of fields in disguise and the 'quantumness' or 'quantization' is a linearizing approximation, a mathematical technique without physical content. Consequently, the imagined 'quantum magic' effects are mere artifacts of the approximation technique, not the physical (real) effects. The fellow above was one of the few there who got it (after checking out SFED and CL citations I provided) and he ended publishing several papers (and conference presentations) titled "No Drama ..." (Quantum Theory, QED,...), essentially stating that there is nothing special to quantumness, it's an unrecognized classical theory obfuscated by linearizing approximations. do you consider yourself a pantheist? If not, exactly what philosophical framework do you classify all your overreached conclusions under? Regarding the mind stuff (consciousness), as explained earlier, I find panpsychism as the most coherent position on the subject (such as those of Leibniz and Spinoza). As for the other *ism, I am mostly in sync with Teilhard de Chardein and his "Omega Point" perspective, which is a special kind of theism.nightlight
March 29, 2013
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'A chess prodigy explains how his mind works – video' Philip, shouldn't that read: '....doesn't/can't explain how his mind works?' Ignore it. Just my being pedantic. Re your #29, concerning autistic savants, visual memory seems to be quite an enhanced faculty in young children. I first noticed it in a young cousin of mine, in relation to a card game involving remembering what card was located where, when a significant number of them were laid out on a table. I know our minds get better and better at 'getting worse and worse', as we get older, dispensing with what is less useful, in favour of new or developing circumstances. Though not so much in terms of housework or why I went into a particular room - now that I'm a widower. But then, attention-focus would require something more than a very marginal level of interest. I suspect the reason why computing is said to be a young person's industry has something to do with both of the above.Axel
March 29, 2013
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Well nightlight, since you have slandered one of the greatest experimental physicists living today, Zeilinger, just so to preserve your very bizarre beliefs, I really lost interest in looking up the precise evidence to refute you. i.e. your mind is made up and no matter what I present to the contrary you will find a way to confirm your preferred belief! Time will tell, and still I would bet all I have against you!,,, By the way, one more question nightlight,, do you consider yourself a pantheist? If not, exactly what philosophical framework do you classify all your overreached conclusions under?bornagain77
March 29, 2013
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bornagain77 #91: So nightlight, your whole tap and dance routine appears to riding on your belief that they will not accomplish this final `loophole free experiment. Good luck with that bet!,,, Facts don't need to tap dance, hope and beliefs do. The plain fact is that they haven't obtained violations of BI after 50+ years of trying. The breakthrough was always right around the next corner, and it is so to this day, many corners later. But this time they will get there, as soon as the funding for the newer, better experiments comes through. OK. Myself, seeing Anton Zeilinger Oh, yeah, the 'quantum magician' in chief who has been peddling these wares for decades, while churning dozens of new magicians along the way, to make sure the craft will continue after his state vector gets projected into a pure horizontal component some day. continually pushing the boundaries as I have, I don't have near as much confidence as you do in a `consciousness free' interpretation of quantum mechanics. In fact I would bet every thing I have against you! My conviction is unrelated to any planned new experimental designs for yet another shot at it. I know it won't work for several fundamental reasons. Besides the pregeometry models (which preclude BI violations), the main other one is that there are alternative theories of QED (quantum electrodynamics, where these experiments fall under), which use purely local classical fields, such as coupled Maxwell-Dirac equations (nonlinear PDE's) by Asim Barut and coworkers from early 1990s (Self-field Electrodynamics, SFED). SFED has replicated the high precision QED results at least to the alpha^5 (alpha=1/137) order, which was the best results as of early 1994 (Barut unfortunately died in 94, and his theory was orphaned). Of course, SFED, being a local theory, cannot violate BI inequalities, but neither could the experiments so far, so SFED is fine as far as any existent experiments. Further, the conjectured BI violations are alpha^1 effect, thus of much lower order of precision than QED experiments. Hence if SFED predicts correctly alpha^5 (i.e. 10 digit results) effects of QED, the radiative corrections, what are the odds of it getting the wrong 1st two digits (due to failure on hypothetical BI violation experiment), while still keeping the remaining 8 digits correct (all high order radiative corrections, which exist in any BI setup as well). Moreover, what about the Leggett violation I cited? The LG inequalities are a lot weaker already at the fundamental level i.e. their loopholes are theoretical and don't need experimental loopholes (which they have, too) to classify them as irrelevant regarding the possibility 'quantum magic'. Namely, their violations, even in a loophole free experiment, exclude only a proper subset of classical theories, the hypothetical 'non-invasive' theories, saying nothing about 'invasive' classical theories. So, the LG violation is like having that "Turk" chess automaton with the locked compartment (the 'invasive' classical theories) that cannot be inspected by the spectators. Hence verification of the allowed compartments (the LG experiments) would be pointless under such constraint.nightlight
March 29, 2013
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Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism - November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview.,,, In the current experiment, the physicists simultaneously ruled out both the locality loophole and the freedom-of-choice loophole. They performed a Bell test between the Canary Islands of La Palma and Tenerife, located 144 km apart. On La Palma, they generated pairs of entangled photons using a laser diode. Then they locally delayed one photon in a 6-km-long optical fiber (29.6-microsecond traveling time) and sent it to one measurement station (Alice), and sent the other photon 144 km away (479-microsecond traveling time) through open space to the other measurement station (Bob) on Tenerife. The scientists took several steps to close both loopholes. For ruling out the possibility of local influence, they added a delay in the optical fiber to Alice to ensure that the measurement events there were space-like separated from those on Tenerife such that no physical signal could be interchanged. Also, the measurement settings were randomly determined by quantum random number generators. To close the freedom-of-choice loophole, the scientists spatially separated the setting choice and the photon emission, which ensured that the setting choice and photon emission occurred at distant locations and nearly simultaneously (within 0.5 microseconds of each other). The scientists also added a delay to Bob's random setting choice. These combined measures eliminated the possibility of the setting choice or photon emission events influencing each other. But again, despite these measures, the scientists still detected correlations between the separated photons that can only be explained by quantum mechanics, violating local realism. By showing that local realism can be violated even when the locality and freedom-of-choice loopholes are closed, the experiment greatly reduces the number of “hidden variable theories” that might explain the correlations while obeying local realism. Further, these theories appear to be beyond the possibility of experimental testing, since they propose such things as allowing actions into the past or assuming a common cause for all events. Now, one of the greatest challenges in quantum mechanics is simultaneously closing the fair-sampling loophole along with the others to demonstrate a completely loophole-free Bell test. Such an experiment will require very high-efficiency detectors and other high-quality components, along with the ability to achieve extremely high transmission. Also, the test would have to operate at a critical distance between Alice and Bob that is not too large, to minimize photon loss, and not too small, to ensure sufficient separation. Although these requirements are beyond the current experimental set-up due to high loss between the islands, the scientists predict that these requirements may be met in the near future. “Performing a loophole-free Bell test is certainly one of the biggest open experimental challenges in the foundations of quantum mechanics,” Kofler said. “Various groups are working towards that goal. It is on the edge of being technologically feasible. Such an experiment will probably be done within the next five years.” http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html So nightlight, your whole tap and dance routine appears to riding on your belief that they will not accomplish this final 'loophole free experiment. Good luck with that bet!,,, Myself, seeing Anton Zeilinger continually pushing the boundaries as I have, I don't have near as much confidence as you do in a 'consciouness free' interpretation of quantum mechanics. In fact I wwould bet every thing I have against you! Moreover, what about the Leggett violation I cited?bornagain77
March 29, 2013
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bornagain77 #81: Yet free will does not belong to `each node' at the `ground level' of these `Planckian networks'. Free will belongs exclusively to conscious observers: Anything "you" do is done by a subsidiary lower level agents, and anything they do is done by their subsidiary lower level agents,... etc. Imagine you press a mouse button and say, "I pressed the mouse button". No you didn't, objects skeptic #1, the finger did it. Nope, said skeptic #2, it's actually the skin on the tip of the finger that did it. That's really naive said skeptic #3, it is the skin cells that did it. Nah, said skeptic #4, it was the membrane of the cells that did it. Ridiculous, said skeptic #5, it's the molecules of the membrane that did it. Skeptic #6 chimes in, molecule didn't do a squat, it's the few atoms of the molecule that did it. It was actually electrons of the atom that did it, objects skeptic #7. Well, not quite, corrects him skeptic #8, it was the virtual photons forming the electrostatic field of those electrons that did it by getting absorbed by the electrons of the atoms on the button surface. Sorry guys, but virtual photons are a mathematical artifact of perturbative QED, a shorthand for an intrinsic property of the Dirac-Maxwell quantum vacuum, said skeptic #9, so it is the vacuum (aka "nothing") that really did it. The last Russian doll we can open, at least in principle, is then the one that did it, by convention, since we don't know what's inside that last doll; perhaps there is another smaller one, and that's the one that "really" did it. Planckian networks happen to be the innermost doll that we can hope to open, while remaining consistent with laws of physics as we know them presently. The above was an outside-in description following the direction of analysis, or the path of epistemology. The ontology, including the mind stuff (consciousness), unfolds in the opposite direction, emanating from inside out. The 'agency' is thus not in the heaven, above, or the largest one, but inside, under, and it is the smallest one of them all. Hence what you call "your" mind stuff is the mind stuff of the innermost doll, the mind stuff of the Planckian networks (by convention, recognizing our present limitations). One conceivable model on how this propagation and composition of the mind stuff or qualia between the layers of technologies might work was sketched in the post #58. Here's a recent variation of Wheeler's Delayed Choice Again you cite the self-promotional puffery from the "quantum magic" school of physics. As explained in post #58, these are hypothetical phenomena deduced from gratuitously appended postulate about composite system projection during measurement, which has no other predicted effects except the 'quantum magic' ones, which were never observed and which were never used for anything else but to promote themselves. These phenomena are thus mere speculations resting squarely on the hoped for "loophole free" violation of Bell inequalities (in plain language: violation which actually violates). That's their empirical acid test. But that experiment has refused to comply with their wishes for over half century and numerous attempts. There were also decades of even earlier tests with a bit more toned down 'quantum magic' claims based on the older criteria which were not acknowledged to be flawed until 1964, when John Bell came up with the new criteria (violation of his inequalities). Only at that time he explained why the old criteria (von Neumann, Gleason, Jauch-Piron) were invalid (or as he said, "silly"). Of course, there were "heretics" (including Einstein, de Broglie, Schrodinger, Bohm and other QM pioneers) who were pointing out the flaws in those older criteria and their implications for decades earlier, yet the criteria and the related 'magic' claims, stood as valid and were taught to students as such until the Bell's 1964 replacement came out. Isn't it funny how this sudden clarity works, I mean, the precision of its lucky timing is just amazing. To help you chill out on citing any more of 'quantum magic' claims, here are two physics preprints at arXiv from just few days ago (March 25 and March 26, 2013), with proposals for yet another shot at a loophole free Bell test, both acknowledging in the intros the absence of such "loophole free" violations so far, as the motivation for these new experimental designs. The euphemism "loophole free violation" (violation which didn't fail to violate, i.e. which violates) of BI has a notable history of use by other scientific hucksters. There was in the 18th century an amazing chess playing automaton, The Turk touring Europe, beating all challengers. The inventor von Kempelen would allow spectators to fully inspect the magical machine, but only one compartment at a time, with other compartments obscured (allowing time for the hidden, small stature player to scoot around into the obscured sections). This is exactly the kind of shifting loopholes they have in BI violations tests -- they can get rid of each one, provided they are allowed to have another one instead. And that has been going on like that for half a century. I suppose, you can fool each new generation of dupes afresh. Even the most physicists are unaware of the exact nature of the problems here, but just instinctively know to stay away from this tar pit. Students never learn the full story and, if lucky, they may find out the omitted key parts only if they end up working the real world quantum optics lab. Theoretical physicists working on pregeometry models (such as Planckian networks, or spinor networks and variants), which include notables such as Penrose, t'Hooft and Wolfram dismiss that whole 'quantum magic' cottage industry via diplomatic euphemism irrelevant, even though on its face the Bell inequalities would preclude these types of models (if only the 'magicians' could get the 'loophole free' violations).nightlight
March 29, 2013
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Hey BA, have you looked much into Wolfram's new kind of science? I'd be interested in your take on it. I only know enough to find it very intriguing, but not enough to seriously evaluate it as a truth claim. As to non-reality without an observer, every time I read about it, it reminds me strongly of all the tricks (calculating occlusion, tracking the camera frustum, segmenting the 3D space into red/black trees, etc.) that we use in creating virtual worlds (i.e. video games) that run in real-time so that we can focus processing power where it will be of optimum use.Phinehas
March 29, 2013
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nightlight, I don't know where you are at in you reconciliation of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics (string theory, m-theory, etc), but I would like to point a very credible alternative as to reconciliation that you may have not seen before: The primary conflict of reconciling General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics mathematically appears to boil down to the inability of either theory to successfully deal with the Zero/Infinity problem that crops up in different places of each theory:
THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY Excerpt: The biggest challenge to today’s physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics. However, these two pillars of modern science were bound to be incompatible. “The universe of general relativity is a smooth rubber sheet. It is continuous and flowing, never sharp, never pointy. Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, describes a jerky and discontinuous universe. What the two theories have in common – and what they clash over – is zero.”,, “The infinite zero of a black hole — mass crammed into zero space, curving space infinitely — punches a hole in the smooth rubber sheet. The equations of general relativity cannot deal with the sharpness of zero. In a black hole, space and time are meaningless.”,, “Quantum mechanics has a similar problem, a problem related to the zero-point energy. The laws of quantum mechanics treat particles such as the electron as points; that is, they take up no space at all. The electron is a zero-dimensional object,,, According to the rules of quantum mechanics, the zero-dimensional electron has infinite mass and infinite charge. http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit01_02/edit6_mar02.htm Quantum Mechanics and Relativity – The Collapse Of Physics? – video – with notes as to plausible reconciliation that is missed by materialists http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6597379/
Another interesting point to draw out in this conflict between GR and QM is that math is, even if a mathematical unification were possible between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, still incomplete.
Taking God Out of the Equation – Biblical Worldview – by Ron Tagliapietra – January 1, 2012 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel (1906–1978) proved that no logical systems (if they include the counting numbers) can have all three of the following properties. 1. Validity . . . all conclusions are reached by valid reasoning. 2. Consistency . . . no conclusions contradict any other conclusions. 3. Completeness . . . all statements made in the system are either true or false. The details filled a book, but the basic concept was simple and elegant. He summed it up this way: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.” For this reason, his proof is also called the Incompleteness Theorem. Kurt Gödel had dropped a bomb on the foundations of mathematics. Math could not play the role of God as infinite and autonomous. It was shocking, though, that logic could prove that mathematics could not be its own ultimate foundation. Christians should not have been surprised. The first two conditions are true about math: it is valid and consistent. But only God fulfills the third condition. Only He is complete and therefore self-dependent (autonomous). God alone is “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “the beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13). God is the ultimate authority (Hebrews 6:13), and in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n1/equation#
i.e. the ‘incompleteness theorem’ shows that the ‘truthfulness’ of any mathematical equation is not held within the equation itself but is dependent on God to derive its ultimate truthfulness. But this obvious point, which has been highly contested, is, despite its contentious nature, fairly obvious as to its evident truthfulness:
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
Yet if we rightfully allow God into mathematics, so as to offer a plausible reconciliation between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, and so as to bring 'true completeness' to math,,,,
The God of the Mathematicians – Goldman Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” – Kurt Gödel – (Gödel is considered one of the greatest logicians who ever existed) http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
,,,then we find that a empirically based reconciliation, between Quantum Theory and General Relativity, readily pops out in the ‘event horizon’ witnessed on the Shroud of Turin:
Turin Shroud 3-D Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205 THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox.,, Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. http://www.academicjournals.org/sre/PDF/pdf2012/30JulSpeIss/Antonacci.pdf General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and The Shroud Of Turin – updated video http://vimeo.com/34084462
Music and verse:
Empty (Empty Cross Empty Tomb) with Dan Haseltine Matt Hammitt (Music Inspired by The Story) http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=F22MCCNU Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
March 29, 2013
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Same to you kairos and the rest of you renegades.Axel
March 29, 2013
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Or rather like Cornelius explaining to me the intricacies of molecular biology, when most of the words are completely absent from my lexicon.Axel
March 29, 2013
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The fundamental problem rendering productive discussion with our Darwinist/ naturalist/materialist/putatively ATHEIST friends, impossible, often touched here, if usually, obliquely, is that not only do they not have any level of purchase upon empirical reality, but at that point at which it is pointed out to them, their reasoning faculty primordially founders, totally collapses. The absolute limit of any concession they will accord to the role of the mind in any discussion about its nature and relationship to the material world, is pantheism - at the retail level, animism Although, of course, they would deny such religious commitments, despite the fact that, absent the moral imperatives of the mainstream formal religions (by definition: 'religere' - to bind), and being ultimately self-referential, their commitment is as absolute as that of any of the Apostles. So, it's rather like talking to a class of 9 year-olds about something appropriate to their age, and then launching into a talk about the bizarre nature of matter at the quantum level. You lose them. That's it.Axel
March 29, 2013
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A HAPPY EASTER WEEKEND TO ALL.kairosfocus
March 29, 2013
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RV: Yup, von Neumann's kinematic self replicator is at the threshold. What does this tell us regarding the origin of the required FSCO/I in light of Paley's further example of the self-replicating watch? KFkairosfocus
March 29, 2013
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Joe quoting Lizzie... "(although as yet, human-designed products lack the ability to self-reproduce, except in virtual space, and self-replication is a the necessarily condition for evolution)." Just thought I'd throw this into the mix. 3D Printers might *soon* be able to replicate themselves. I assume that it's only a matter of time before they join in this discussion!ronvanwegen
March 29, 2013
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nightlight you state:
Back to subject — regarding the free will, I don’t subscribe into deterministic models of these Planckian networks. At the ground level, there should be an elemental decision step, freely chosen by each node as to which state +1 or -1 it will signal as its state next,,,
Yet free will does not belong to 'each node' at the 'ground level' of these 'Planckian networks'. Free will belongs exclusively to conscious observers: Here’s a recent variation of Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment, which highlights the ability of the conscious observer to effect 'spooky action into the past', thus further solidifying consciousness's centrality in reality. Furthermore in the following experiment, the claim that past material states determine future conscious choices (determinism) is falsified by the fact that present conscious choices effect past material states:
Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
In other words, if my conscious choices really are just merely the result of whatever state the material particles in my brain happen to be in in the past (deterministic) how in blue blazes are my choices instantaneously effecting the state of material particles into the past?,,, I consider the preceding experimental evidence to be an improvement over the traditional 'uncertainty' argument for free will, from quantum mechanics, that had been used to undermine the deterministic belief of materialists. Moreover nightlight, to further undermine your claim that free will belongs to 'each node' at the 'ground level' of these 'Planckian networks' (Pantheism??),,,
The Scale of The Universe - Part 2 - interactive graph (recently updated in 2012 with cool features) http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white
The preceding interactive graph points out that the smallest scale visible to the human eye (as well as a human egg) is at 10^-4 meters, which 'just so happens' to be directly in the exponential center of all possible sizes of our physical reality (not just ‘nearly’ in the exponential center!). i.e. 10^-4 is, exponentially, right in the middle of 10^-35 meters, which is the smallest possible unit of length, which is Planck length, and 10^27 meters, which is the largest possible unit of 'observable' length since space-time was created in the Big Bang, which is the diameter of the universe. This is very interesting for, as far as I can tell, the limits to human vision (as well as the size of the human egg) could have, theoretically, been at very different positions than directly in the exponential middle; Moreover nightlight you claim that,,,
This is a “research” from that same speculative parasitic branch of quantum theory that has nothing but half a century long chain of failed experiments and a truckloads of ever more elaborate euphemisms to explain how come it never works. That branch has absolutely no connection with the legendary precision of Quantum Electrodynamics (QED). The parasitic para-science layers arise and wraps around any successful real science, claiming credits by proximity.
Yet that 'parasitic branch', contrary to what you believe, is what forms the actual core of quantum theory and it is the legendary precision of QED that has been 'wrapped around' around that quantum theoretic core, not the other way around.
Quantum Mechanics vs. General Relativity Excerpt: The Gravity of the Situation The inability to reconcile general relativity with quantum mechanics didn’t just occur to physicists. It was actually after many other successful theories had already been developed that gravity was recognized as the elusive force. The first attempt at unifying relativity and quantum mechanics took place when special relativity was merged with electromagnetism. This created the theory of quantum electrodynamics, or QED. It is an example of what has come to be known as relativistic quantum field theory, or just quantum field theory. QED is considered by most physicists to be the most precise theory of natural phenomena ever developed. In the 1960s and ’70s, the success of QED prompted other physicists to try an analogous approach to unifying the weak, the strong, and the gravitational forces. Out of these discoveries came another set of theories that merged the strong and weak forces called quantum chromodynamics, or QCD, and quantum electroweak theory, or simply the electroweak theory, which you’ve already been introduced to. If you examine the forces and particles that have been combined in the theories we just covered, you’ll notice that the obvious force missing is that of gravity.,,, http://www.infoplease.com/cig/theories-universe/quantum-mechanics-vs-general-relativity.html
Supplemental note on your false claim of a 'half a century long chain of failed experiments':
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: Many realizations of the thought experiment have indeed verified the violation of Bell's inequality. These have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption – realism, locality or both – is discordant with quantum mechanics. Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues from the University of Vienna, however, have now shown that realism is more of a problem than locality in the quantum world. They devised an experiment that violates a different inequality proposed by physicist Anthony Leggett in 2003 that relies only on realism, and relaxes the reliance on locality. To do this, rather than taking measurements along just one plane of polarization, the Austrian team took measurements in additional, perpendicular planes to check for elliptical polarization. They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640
Here is a good article which gives a bit of the history behind the preceding experiment (Please note in the article, towards the end of the article, that Leggett himself refused to accept the results of the experiment the he was instrumental in formulating, and that Zeilinger was able to bring to successful fruition, because it clashed with his atheistic/materialistic worldview! ):
A team of physicists in Vienna has devised experiments that may answer one of the enduring riddles of science: Do we create the world just by looking at it? - 2008 http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reality_tests/P1/
further notes:
“I’m going to talk about the Bell inequality, and more importantly a new inequality that you might not have heard of called the Leggett inequality, that was recently measured. It was actually formulated almost 30 years ago by Professor Leggett, who is a Nobel Prize winner, but it wasn’t tested until about a year and a half ago (in 2007), when an article appeared in Nature, that the measurement was made by this prominent quantum group in Vienna led by Anton Zeilinger, which they measured the Leggett inequality, which actually goes a step deeper than the Bell inequality and rules out any possible interpretation other than consciousness creates reality when the measurement is made.” – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D., Calphysics Institute, is an astrophysicist and author of over 130 scientific publications.
Preceding quote taken from this following video;
Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness - A New Measurement - Bernard Haisch, Ph.D (Shortened version of entire video with notes in description of video) http://vimeo.com/37517080 Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
Also of note, here is a neat little video on the infamous double slit experiment, with Anton Zeilinger, that I found the other day. (please note the materialist's question; "Is Anything Real?"
Quantum Mechanics - Double Slit Experiment - Is Anything Real? (Prof. Anton Zeilinger) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvbKafw2g0
Verse and Music:
Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." Kari Jobe - Revelation Song - Passion 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dZMBrGGmeE
bornagain77
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One last thought before bed... I think that an unreflective adherence to the categories of "natural" and "artificial" makes it very difficult for people to fairly examine design arguments. Typically we use those terms in a way that is mutually exclusive (natural things are not artificial and vice versa) and jointly exhaustive (everything is either natural or artificial). ID, however, plays havoc with those tidy categories. If ID is correct, then many things that would otherwise be considered natural are actually products of design or artifice (in this context meaning clever and artful skill or ingenuity), hence artificial. A mind that is firmly locked into the natural versus artificial dichotomy is going to have great difficulty accepting that there can be any sort of overlap in those two categories, and any line of reasoning that would lead to such a seemingly absurd conclusion would have to be dismissed as fallacious (or at least incorrigibly mischevious!).Optimus
March 29, 2013
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Nightlight Regarding your concerns about conflating different terms (e.g. 'evolution' with 'neo-darwinism'), I agree that it's important to be specific, and I fully acknowledge that at times it's all too easy to get lazy with language. However, I think that KF, EA, and SB adequately addressed the matter in posts 3, 39, and 45 (I think). In fact, practically every pro-ID book I've read shows painstaking care in drawing the distinctions between the different meanings of 'evolution'. As commonly used, 'evolution' can mean 'change in allele frequencies in a population over time' (a definition that is profoundly uncontroversial and not terribly interesting). Sometimes it's used with reference to a mechanism of biological change (e.g. random mutation + natural selection or genetic drift). Sometimes it means mechanism + universal common ancestry. Sometimes it means mechanism + universal common ancestry + metaphysical baggage (i.e that it's purposeless, unguided, uncaring, etc.). A very good summary of the variant meanings of evolution can be found in the book Darwinism, Design, And Public Education. Usually the last sense is what I mean when I use the term Neo-Darwinism.Optimus
March 28, 2013
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StephenB @ 48 Thank you for your kind words!Optimus
March 28, 2013
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Nightlight @ 19
Therefore MN doesn’t exclude a hypothetical intelligent agency guiding processes of life and their evolution, either. It only excludes ‘deus ex machina’ proposals (such as invocation of “mind” as an explanation, since present natural science lacks a model for “mind stuff”; cf. hard problem of consciousness).
Perhaps, in the strictest usage of the term, methodological naturalism does not by necessity exclude intelligent agency as a category of causal explanation. After all, it could be argued, scientists are perfectly willing to entertain the possibility of intelligent causation when examining objects recovered from archaeological sites. Yet an archaeologist would probably feel quite comfortable that he or she had not violated the principle of MN. However, in practice MN is often used as a demarcation argument in order to partition off ID from 'respectable' scientific inquiry. When Judge Jones made his ruling in the Kitzmiller v. Dover case, he quite specifically appealed to MN as the distinguishing feature of 'real' science that would rule out ID. Philosophers, such as Nancey Murphy, have made similar arguments. Right or wrong (as far as definitions are concerned) persons opposed to ID as a scientific program repeatedly trot out MN as a rationale for why it just doesn't belong. It could probably be said that methodological naturalism is an attempt to preemptively strike out against the implications of ID. While ID modestly doesn't make specific claims about the nature of the designer, out of respect for reasonable limits of inference, I would never deny that it is at least congenial to a theistic worldview, and this is where a lot of people become uncomfortable. After all, it's one thing to say that an arrowhead was designed - humans can do that, right? To say that life on earth was designed is a further stretch that's likely too far for many, but it does fall within the conventional naturalistic framework - the designers could be aliens, right? Even Francis Crick could go along with that one. But what if we see design in the very fabric of the cosmos itself? The constants of gravity, electromagnetic force, strong and weak nuclear force? Now aliens are out of the question. They can hardly take credit for designing the very universe in which they live. What recourse do we have left? Creating a universe would seem to require an intelligence that is external and causally prior to the universe. Not only that, but such a being would have to be imeasurably powerful, possessing an incomprehensible intellect. What else could be the cause of a universe that contains such prodigious quantities of energy? That sounds suspiciously too much like a god of some sort, therefore, the reasoning proceeds, any putative 'science' that leads in that direction must really be just a clandestine attempt to smuggle religion into the natural sciences! Those ID/creationists are so sneaky!Optimus
March 28, 2013
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LYO, Cf the logic of contingency and necessity of being and where it points. Here on may be a helpful 101. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
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Computerist:
only intelligence can be responsible for intelligence
I completely agree, with the exception of the first intelligence. After the first uncaused intelligence, it's obvious that ALL intelligence must come from intelligence.lastyearon
March 28, 2013
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