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Optimus, replying to KN on ID as ideology, summarises the case for design in the natural world

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The following reply by Optimus to KN in the TSZ thread, is far too good not to headline as an excellent summary of the case for design as a scientifically legitimate view, not mere  “Creationism in a cheap tuxedo”  ideology motivated and driven by anti-materialism and/or a right-wing, theocratic, culture war mentality commonly ascribed to “Creationism” by its objectors:

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>> KN

It’s central to the ideological glue that holds together “the ID movement” that the following are all conflated:Darwin’s theories; neo-Darwinism; modern evolutionary theory; Epicurean materialistic metaphysics; Enlightenment-inspired secularism. (Maybe I’m missing one or two pieces of the puzzle.) In my judgment, a mind incapable of making the requisite distinctions hardly deserves to be taken seriously.

I think your analysis of the driving force behind ID is way off base. That’s not to say that persons who advocate ID (including myself) aren’t sometimes guilty of sloppy use of language, nor am I making the claim that the modern synthetic theory of evolution is synonymous with materialism or secularism. Having made that acknowledgement, though, it is demonstrably true that (1) metaphysical presuppostions absolutely undergird much of the modern synthetic theory. This is especially true with regard to methodological naturalism (of course, MN is distinct from ontological naturalism, but if, as some claim, science describes the whole of reality, then reality becomes coextensive with that which is natural). Methodological naturalism is not the end product of some experiment or series of experiments. On the contrary it is a ground rule that excludes a priori any explanation that might be classed as “non-natural”. Some would argue that it is necessary for practical reasons, after all we don’t want people atributing seasonal thunderstorms to Thor, do we? However, science could get along just as well as at present (even better in my view) if the ground rule is simply that any proposed causal explanation must be rigorously defined and that it shall not be accepted except in light of compelling evidence. Problem solved! Though some fear “supernatural explanation” (which is highly definitional) overwhelming the sciences, such concerns are frequently oversold. Interestingly, the much maligned Michael Behe makes very much the same point in his 1996 Darwin’s Black Box:

If my graduate student came into my office and said that the angel of death killed her bacterial culture, I would be disinclined to believe her…. Science has learned over the past half millenium that the universe operates with great regularity the great majority of the time, and that simple laws and predictable behavior explain most physical phenomena.
Darwin’s Black Box pg. 241

If Behe’s expression is representative of the ID community (which I would venture it is), then why the death-grip on methodological naturalism? I suggest that its power lies in its exclusionary function. It rules out ID right from the start, before even any discussions about the emprical data are to be had. MN means that ID is persona non grata, thus some sort of evolutionary explanation must win by default. (2) In Darwin’s own arguments in favor of his theory he rely heavily on metaphysical assumptions about what God would or wouldn’t do. Effectively he uses special creation by a deity as his null hypothesis, casting his theory as the explanatory alternative. Thus the adversarial relationship between Darwin (whose ideas are foundational to the MST) and theism is baked right into The Origin. To this very day, “bad design” arguments in favor of evolution still employ theological reasoning. (3) The modern synthetic theory is often used in the public debate as a prop for materialism (which I believe you acknowledged in another comment). How many times have we heard the famed Richard Dawkins quote to the effect that ‘Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist’? Very frequently evolutionary theory is impressed into service to show the superfluousness of theism or to explain away religion as an erstwhile useful phenomenon produced by natural selection (or something to that effect). Hardly can it be ignored that the most enthusiastic boosters of evolutionary theory tend to fall on the atheist/materialist/reductionist side of the spectrum (e.g. Eugenie Scott, Michael Shermer, P.Z. Meyers, Jerry Coyne, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Peter Atkins, Daniel Dennett, Will Provine). My point simply stated is that it is not at all wrong-headed to draw a connection between the modern synthetic theory and the aforementioned class of metaphysical views. Can it be said that the modern synthetic theory (am I allowed just to write Neo-Darwinism for short?) doesn’t mandate nontheistic metaphysics? Sure. But it’s just as true that they often accompany each other.

In chalking up ID to a massive attack of confused cognition, you overlook the substantive reasons why many (including a number of PhD scientists) consider ID to be a cogent explanation of many features of our universe (especially the bioshpere):

-Functionally-specified complex information [FSCI] present in cells in prodigdious quantities
-Sophisticated mechanical systems at both the micro and macro level in organisms (many of which exhibit IC)
-Fine-tuning of fundamental constants
-Patterns of stasis followed by abrupt appearance (geologically speaking) in the fossil record

In my opinion the presence of FSCI/O and complex biological machinery are very powerful indicators of intelligent agency, judging from our uniform and repeated experience. Also note that none of the above reasons employ theological presuppositions. They flow naturally, inexorably from the data. And, yes, we are all familiar with the objection that organisms are distinct from artificial objects, the implication being that our knowledge from the domain of man-made objects doesn’t carry over to biology. I think this is fallacious. Everyone acknowledges that matter inhabiting this universe is made up of atoms, which in turn are composed of still other particles. This is true of all matter, not just “natural” things, not just “artificial” things – everything. If such is the case, then must not the same laws apply to all matter with equal force? From whence comes the false dichotomy that between “natural” and “artificial”? If design can be discerned in one case, why not in the other?

To this point we have not even addressed the shortcomings of the modern synthetic theory (excepting only its metaphysical moorings). They are manifold, however – evidential shortcomings (e.g. lack of empirical support), unjustified extrapolations, question-begging assumptions, ad hoc rationalizations, tolerance of “just so” stories, narratives imposed on data instead of gleaned from data, conflict with empirical data from generations of human experience with breeding, etc. If at the end of the day you truly believe that all ID has going for it is a culture war mentality, then may I politely suggest that you haven’t been paying attention.>>

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Well worth reflecting on, and Optimus deserves to be headlined. END

Comments
Nightlight, yes exactly, we were parodying each other. Apologies if you felt it was directed at you. I won't deny ever using ridicule here, but I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who is not obviously hostile or disrespectful. In that spirit, welcome to UD. Let me ask you a serious question or three to gauge your disposition to ID and perhaps your sincerity, such as: Do you agree that at the least, chance, physical necessity, and agency are altogether needed to account for most, if not all of what we observe? As a corollary, and for clarity, do you agree that chance and physical necessity are insufficient to account for jet airplanes, computers and algorithms, and skyscrapers? Lastly, do you think that things which are known to be designed, like the aforementioned artifacts, have features or properties in common which set them apart from things which are naturally produced, such as the results of geological processes?Chance Ratcliff
March 28, 2013
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CR @71: Don’t flatter yourself, nightlight. :) That’s a cookie cutter ID critic, and I began doing it before you ever showed up. Not only so, but I didn’t read your posts before responding to LYO, who had introduced his own shtick days if not weeks ago. I see, two of you were parodying each other back & forth. I think he may have gone one extra loop, and was parodying his parody of your position in his response to me, so to me both appeared as an attempt at parody of my own posts. Or maybe, since I invariably end up on the opposite pole from both sides on this subject, then as GW Bush would begin, enemy of my enemy...nightlight
March 28, 2013
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bornagain77 (#46): Perhaps nightlight instead of the futility of trying to explain how consciousness emerged from a material basis you should finally be `scientific' and admit that your worldview is false? Of course it is false. It would have been terribly disappointing if I had already figured it all out, with decades to go and no mystery of importance to ponder any more. When the mystery is gone, I am gone, too. Luckily, we are all deep ignoramuses, each of us a little ant looking at the same elephant through his own tiny pinhole, wondering what kind of ant could this be. That's what we're here for.nightlight
March 28, 2013
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Don't flatter yourself, nightlight. :) That's a cookie cutter ID critic, and I began doing it before you ever showed up. Not only so, but I didn't read your posts before responding to LYO, who had introduced his own shtick days if not weeks ago. So it had nothing to do with you directly. If you see parallels, that's on you. ;)Chance Ratcliff
March 28, 2013
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Mr. Anderson @68 -- it was more than obvious he was spoofing my posts (yep, it was humorous; in its childish ways of understanding of what I wrote). You know how that goes, first they ignore you, then they they spoof you, then they fight you, then...nightlight
March 28, 2013
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Eric @68, I get it, I really do, but somehow a sarc tag just seems like cheating. However it's not my intention to snare anyone who may have actually heard similar arguments put forth with a straight face. In my defense, let me just say that lastyearon started it. ;)Chance Ratcliff
March 28, 2013
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Chance @51 et seq.: You might want to add a /sarc tag, especially for the newcomers. :) We see all manner of arguments here, and some of the materialist arguments are indeed difficult to parody, so sometimes it is hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic.Eric Anderson
March 28, 2013
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bornagain77: Yet, despite whatever limits you think one should place on scientific inquiry prior to investigation, it is clear exactly where consciousness (and free will) come into play for ID: I need to admit that admire and enjoy the fruits of your tireless unearthing of myriads interesting facts and perspectives, extracting of relevant quotes and links, all packaged nicely in a reader friendly form. Great work. Along the same tangent, some day, when one of these startups I like to join with, makes it big and I don't need to work for living any more, I daydream (and actually have quite a few sketches and algorithmic elements) of writing a program which can vastly expand the network of neurons making person's brain into a coherently integrated live network of facts, ideas, connections operating together with brain at full speed, effortlessly and seamlessly as a single natural, super-intelligent hybrid entity. This kind of knowledge base has to be a network with adaptable links shaped and tuned to capture the most subtle thought patterns one has, to keep them alive and thinking even when the carbon component is already thinking something else, or asleep, or eventually when it wears out and perishes. Note that this not a brute force core-dump & upload of your brain info into a computer of the future (a la Kurzweil's idea of immortalizing via singularity technology), but rather a live hybrid system that lives as one seamless intelligent system with the carbon counterparts. Back to subject -- regarding the free will, I don't subscribe into deterministic models of these Planckian networks. At the ground level, there should be an elemental decision step, freely chosen by each node as to which state +1 or -1 it will signal as its state next (of course, any free choice has consequences, thus a node could not signal a permanent +1, the happy state). In the mind-stuff (+1,-1) mapping sketched earlier as one conceivable scientific model of 'mind stuff', this choice would be the elemental act of free will. It would propagate and get amplified up the higher levels of networks, through physical particles (which already obey non-deterministic quantum laws), then to biochemical networks, then to brain level, etc, like all the other mind-stuff attributes of the model and that would represent 'what is it like to decide' sense or quale. Dr. Abel's writing seems interesting. He brings up the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" which I, too, found to be a very interesting phenomenon. This post has a little section, toward middle of the longer post, on that same paper by Eugene Wigner and how that may actually work, which goes beyond Dr. Abel's (or Wigner's) non-constructive awe at the phenomenon. In our best mathematical description of reality (quantum mechanic), which is verified to something like 13 decimal places, it is now found that one cannot ever improve quantum theory over its present state, with the only a priori assumptions being that measurements (conscious observations) can be freely chosen... This is a "research" from that same speculative parasitic branch of quantum theory that has nothing but half a century long chain of failed experiments and a truckloads of ever more elaborate euphemisms to explain how come it never works. That branch has absolutely no connection with the legendary precision of Quantum Electrodynamics (QED). The parasitic para-science layers arise and wraps around any successful real science, claiming credits by proximity. As always, you recognize them by their fruits -- they never produced anything that did anything for anyone except for themselves, as empty props to help promoting their own quantum magic shows. They have talking and promising ever more miraculous miracle technologies for more than half a century, with ever showing anything that works. In molecular biology you similarly have loud-mouthed neo-Darwinists horning in on the great scientific and technological advances of recent decades, peddling their gratuitous "random mutation" (a foundation stone and a springboard for proselytizing of atheism) and declaring that nothing in biology and genetics makes sense except in the "light" of (their theory of) evolution. This is the other pea, but in physics, out of the same parasitic peapod. You would be wiser to stay away from that mutual back-patting society of quantum magicians. Just like neo-Darwinist, these too have their friendly chain for peer reviewed publishing and praising of each other in a self-referential circle jerk. I have spent few years studying that stuff, then few more thinking and digesting, as well as doing work in real world quantum optics labs, before it finally dawned on me what's going on with that strange branch of physics. (Yep, I also believed in Darwinian just so stories, way back through college and grad school, until ID critique woke me up to what that was all about.)nightlight
March 28, 2013
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wallstreeter, I don't know if you have these yet, but here are my notes on the preceding work that was done overturning the flawed carbon dating of the late 1980s: Shroud of Turin - Carbon 14 test proves false (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE Discovery Channel - Unwrapping The Shroud of Turin New Evidence - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyiZtagxX8 The following is the main peer reviewed paper which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating: Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425 pages 189-194, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California) Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.ntskeptics.org/issues/shroud/shroudold.htm Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory: Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review Excerpt: Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today. http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-custodians-of-time/ This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which completely confirms the Rogers' paper: “Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case....... LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. - Robert Villarreal - Los Alamos National Laboratory http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193bornagain77
March 28, 2013
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wallstreeter, I don't know if the Shroud dating will be posted, but I sure appreciate you bringing this to my attention, :) As you did with other stuff on the shroud a little while back!bornagain77
March 28, 2013
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Upright BiPed: Using the parameters which you indicate must be the basis of a scientific conclusion (i.e. model space, empirical procedures and facts, operational rules mapping numbers between the model and the empirical) how does science to come such a conclusion about fire? Or is such a conclusion arrived at through other appropriate scientific means, observation, materials knowledge, etc. Good point on an aspect not fleshed out in that post (it was already long as it is). That triune schematics of a natural science is an abstract scientific model of a 'natural science' as its object. Hence, in a sense it is an external, idealized view of the main elements of a mature science, with the "messy" process that produced the results, the models, algorithms, mappings abstracted away. If you were to describe a mature, modern process of steel production, it would include lot of steel machinery that seems vital for the operation. The system appears hopelessly interlocked and if someone were to take away the steel needed in the production, you couldn't produce it any more. Yet, it is all rolling happily along now. The same goes for modern design and manufacturing of computers or processors, which require quite a bit of computing power in all stages of the process. Or for that matter, producing a chicken requires an egg, which in turn requires another chicken,... One arrives at such final, polished interlocked systems through a long chain of creative leaps of imagination. In case of technologies and sciences, it is the leaps of human imaginations that drive the process. In the case of chicken and egg, it's the leaps of imagination by the biochemical networks of their ancient ancestors. The biochemical networks are mathematically the same type of adaptable networks as our brain, a self-progamming distributed computer, with merely different technologies used for implementing the links and nodes. (More details with references are in a talk.origins post "Biochemical networks & their algorithms".) In turn these biochemical networks which are designing, constructing and improving live organisms, are themselves a large scale computing technology designed and built by other even denser, faster networks (Planckian networks) which are computing physical & chemical laws (including their space-time parameterization), moment to moment for every particle in the physical universe. That is how the physical laws and constants just happen to be perfectly tuned for life -- they are tuned, designed and built specifically to help construct even larger scale intelligent network technology, the biochemical networks, which in turn followed along the same path with design of life, humans, then humans followed with human technologies. Note that the physical laws as presently known are merely a coarse grained approximation du jour of the far more subtle real laws which are being computed. Hence, from the perspective of our present crude knowledge this 'fine tuning' appears mysterious. It is all the same harmonization process unfolding at ever larger scales, harmonizing the actions of ever larger systems, as if it is seeking the perfect harmony of Leibniz monads. Think for a moment, that two of us, who are in some sense just two bundles of molecules bouncing around, possibly thousands of miles apart, have their actions mutually harmoznized, at least for the duration of this exchange of UD messages. What are the odds of something like that, without the vast chain of intellignet processes going back eons, patiently building upon each other's creations and technologies all that is needed for harmonization at that scale. Although consciousness (mind stuff) is outside of present natural sciences, the most coherent conjecture for some future science, considering the similarity of their fundamental algorithms, is that all such networks are conscious, not just the human brain. (A bit of my own informal speculation on the subject is sketched in post #58 above.)nightlight
March 28, 2013
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KF, I'll take that as a compliment. :)Chance Ratcliff
March 28, 2013
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Off topic guys but did anyone get the news just released on the shroud of turin? It's huge news , and these tests are being submitted for peer review also. Can someone make a blog post about this here please? New tests done on fibers of the shroud put it to the time of Christ. I know that bornagain77 will be very interested in this as well. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9958678/Turin-Shroud-is-not-a-medieval-forgery.html Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery' The Turin Shroud is not a medieval forgery, as has long been claimed, but could in fact date from the time of Christ's death, a new book claims. By Nick Squires, Rome correspondent10:24AM GMT 28 Mar 2013744 Comments Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ. Many Catholics believe that the 14ft-long linen cloth, which bears the imprint of the face and body of a bearded man, was used to bury Christ's body when he was lifted down from the cross after being crucified 2,000 years ago. The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist. The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics. Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud, which is kept in a special climate-controlled case in Turin. Related Articles Turin Shroud 'is authentic' 19 Dec 2011 Mystery solved? Turin Shroud linked to Resurrection of Christ 24 Mar 2012 The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD. The experiments were carried out on fibres taken from the Shroud during a previous study, in 1988, when they were subjected to carbon-14 dating. Those tests, conducted by laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Arizona, appeared to back up the theory that the shroud was a clever medieval fake, suggesting that it dated from 1260 to 1390. But those results were in turn disputed on the basis that they may have been skewed by contamination by fibres from cloth that was used to repair the relic when it was damaged by fire in the Middle Ages. The mystery of the shroud has baffled people for centuries and has spawned not only religious devotion but also books, documentaries and conspiracy theories. The linen cloth appears to show the imprint of a man with long hair and a beard whose body bears wounds consistent with having been crucified. Each year it lures hundreds of thousands of faithful to Turin Cathedral, where it is kept in a specially designed, climate-controlled case. Scientists have never been able to explain how the image of a man's body, complete with nail wounds to his wrists and feet, pinpricks from thorns around his forehead and a spear wound to his chest, could have formed on the cloth. The Vatican has never said whether it believes the shroud to be authentic or not, although Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI once said that the enigmatic image imprinted on the cloth "reminds us always" of Christ's suffering. His newly-elected successor, Pope Francis, will provide an introduction when images of the shroud appear on television on Saturday, the day before Easter Sunday, which commemorates the resurrection. The Pope has recorded a voice-over introduction for the broadcast on RAI, the state television channel. "It will be a message of intense spiritual scope, charged with positivity, which will help (people) never to lose hope," said Cesare Nosiglia, the Archbishop of Turin, who also has the title "pontifical custodian of the shroud". "The display of the shroud on a day as special as Holy Saturday means that it represents a very important testimony to the Passion and the resurrection of the Lord," he said. For the first time, an app has been created to enable people to explore the holy relic in detail on their smart phones and tablets. The app, sanctioned by the Catholic Church and called "Shroud 2.0", features high definition photographs of the cloth and enables users to see details that would otherwise be invisible to the naked eye. "For the first time in history the most detailed image of the shroud ever achieved becomes available to the whole world, thanks to a streaming system which allows a close-up view of the cloth. Each detail of the cloth can be magnified and visualised in a way which would otherwise not be possible," Haltadefinizione, the makers of the app, said.wallstreeter43
March 28, 2013
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CR: is that meant as a spoof, I can't tell. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
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KN: sorry to hear that, hope you have a turnaround. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
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nightlight your claims are simply gussied up Methodological Naturalism. Particularly this claim:
The problem with ‘consciousness’ is that there is nothing in models (M) Model space (formalism & algorithms) of the current natural sciences that corresponds to it. It is simply an extraneous element that no one knows how to model, or what does it do and, if it does anything at all (i.e. if it’s not a non-functional epiphenomenon), how does it do it (e.g. how does it affect matter-energy, what are the rules & limits).
Yet, despite whatever limits you think one should place on scientific inquiry prior to investigation, it is clear exactly where consciousness (and free will) come into play for ID:
"Nonphysical formalism not only describes, but preceded physicality and the Big Bang Formalism prescribed, organized and continues to govern physicodynamics." http://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/2/1/106/ag The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency - Dr David L. Abel - November 2010 Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.”,,, After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” http://www-qa.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Insufficiency.html Is Life Unique? David L. Abel - January 2012 Concluding Statement: The scientific method itself cannot be reduced to mass and energy. Neither can language, translation, coding and decoding, mathematics, logic theory, programming, symbol systems, the integration of circuits, computation, categorizations, results tabulation, the drawing and discussion of conclusions. The prevailing Kuhnian paradigm rut of philosophic physicalism is obstructing scientific progress, biology in particular. There is more to life than chemistry. All known life is cybernetic. Control is choice-contingent and formal, not physicodynamic. http://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/2/1/106/ Chaitin’s Algorithmic Information Theory shows that information is conserved under formal mathematical operations and, equivalently, under computer operations. This conservation law puts a new perspective on many familiar problems related to artificial intelligence. For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomenon: the creation of new information. “… no operation performed by a computer can create new information.” — Douglas G. Robertson, “Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test,” Complexity, Vol.3, #3 Jan/Feb 1999, pp. 25-34.
nightlight pay particular attention to the 'free will' aspect of creating new information in the last statement as you read this following experiment: In our best mathematical description of reality (quantum mechanic), which is verified to something like 13 decimal places, it is now found that one cannot ever improve quantum theory over its present state, with the only a priori assumptions being that measurements (conscious observations) can be freely chosen:
Can quantum theory be improved? – July 23, 2012 Excerpt: However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power,,,. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html
Now nightlight this is completely unheard of in science as far as I know. i.e. That a mathematical description of reality would advance to the point that one can actually perform a experiment showing that your current theory will not be exceeded in predictive power by another future theory is simply unprecedented in science! Moreover nightlight, do you want to be the one to go tell these researchers, who have reached such a unprecedented milestone in the history of science, with the most sucessful theory in science, that they have to remove their a priori assumptions of conscious observation and free will from their experiment because you personally consider it 'unscientific' to include consciousness and free will in any scientific explanation??? nightlight if you really want to worry about something being within the realm of 'science' or not, may I suggest a much more fruitful avenue of investigation?:
Neo-Darwinism isn’t ‘science’ because, besides its stunning failure at establishing empirical validation in the lab, it has no mathematical basis, and furthermore neo-Darwinism can never have a mathematical basis because of the atheistic insistence for the ‘random’ variable postulate at the base of its formulation (a postulate which prevents ‘mathematical certitude’ from ever being reached!): https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/the-equations-of-evolution/#comment-450540
Verse and music:
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Whom Shall I Fear (God Of Angel Armies) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOkImV2cJDg
bornagain77
March 28, 2013
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bornagain77 (#46): nightlight: "Consciousness" is outside of present natural science - there is no scientific model that can tell you `this arrangement of matter-energy is conscious and this one is not.' bornagain77: Actually the `hard problem of consciousness' is only a problem for atheistic materialists... You seem to be confusing concepts 'scientific theory' and 'direct experience' -- consciousness is a non-problem for the latter (one may say, it is the latter), while it is a problem for the current natural science. That doesn't mean it will be a problem for future natural science. For example, it is quite conceivable that some pregeometry model of physics (such as those of Wolfram's NKS, see post #19) can be made to work on binary states, labeled say as +1 and -1. Some such models already exist capable of reproducing some key equations of physics (such as Shchrodinger, Dirac and Maxwell equations, special theory of relativity, etc), albeit via disparate fragmented models tailored to each equation. Within such models, our "elementary" particles are properties of the patterns on this more elemental computing substratum (analogous to gliders in Conway's Game of Life). In any case, when/if a general enough model of that type is found, then one could postulate that the two fundamental states +1 and -1, correspond to the two elemental attributes of mind stuff, e.g. +1 = (reward, happiness, pleasure...) and -1 = (punishment, unhappiness, pain...). In such model, the activation of these elements with their +1/-1 states (dynamically changing by the rules of the model), would correspond to specific qualia e.g. when your red sensing neurons enter dominant state +1, one could interpret 'what is it like to see redness' as: it is like elements X1, X2,... being in 'happy' (reward, recognition) state. Similarly perceiving roundness would be like having elements Y1, Y2,... entering their happy state. If the nervous system is wired to combine simultaneous signals +1 from X and Y into +1 for some Z elements, then Z1, Z2,... entering 'happy' state of recognition would be an answer of the model to what is it like to see 'red circle' etc. Thus the compositon of qualia would correspond to new elements going active (+1 state, recognition) when some subsets of other elements are active. Of course, the postulates of some theory A cannot tell you anything about their origin or 'deeper meaning'. For that you need some other theory B which can deduce postulates of A from some simpler postulates of its own. But to have a science which can deduce something, you need some constructive assumptions taken for granted to start with. Nothing follows from an empty assumption set. Nothing also follows from assumptions that cannot be put into an algorithmic form (formulas, programs), so that numbers can be computed for comparison with corresponding empirically obtained numbers (see previous post #49 about the general scheme sketched here). Hence, science and direct experience are neither synonyms nor equivalents nor substitutes for each other. While future models of mind stuff, such as the sketch above, may provide coherent scientific model of mind stuff, they still will not answer to a color-blind 'what is it really like to see real redness' (as opposed to grayness). On the other hand, as in most science, such models of mind stuff may help answer interesting questions which are beyond the reach of our direct experience, such as what happens with mind stuff after one dies and body decays into organic dust. For example, in the Planckian network models (see #19, #35), augmented with binary +1, -1 states interpreted as elemental mind stuff ingredients, our atoms & molecules are technologies of those networks, which in these models are conscious entities. The basic 'mind stuff' composition rules sketched above would imply that lower entities have much narrower and sharper (hyper-real qualia) conscious experiences than higher level entities (which inherit & combine those more basic elements into broader, more diffuse forms). The computational speeds and computing power of the lower level entities are also much greater (e.g. Planckian networks would be 'ounce for ounce' 10^80 times more powerful then our technologies or brains), thus their experiences would unfold much, much more quickly and more accurately. Hence, after death, as the decay progresses downward, from whole organism to organs, to tissues, to cells, to molecules, the experience would evolve through increasingly more hyper-real, hyper-sharp, rapidly accelerating forms. Each stage would appear more real than the previous one, which would seem like a vague rapidly fading dream. In a way, at the end one would be 'back with the crew' that is normally running the body moment to moment as their large scale technology, but which is now being dismantled (e.g. for possible reuse in improved future models of their technologies). Of course, absent the complete theories of the above kind, these descriptions are presently mere speculation meant to illustrate complementary roles and mutual enrichment between direct experiences and their scientific models. There is no a priori reason to presume, as you seem to do, that there will never be useful and productive scientific models of mind stuff. bornagain77: Indeed quantum mechanics has now confirmed the Theists contention that `consciousness' precedes material reality... I just happen, as a theoretical physicist, to know a bit on this subject, having done a master's thesis about none other than Quantum Paradoxes (measurement problem, wave function collapse, Bell inequalities, etc). Word of advice would be to stay away from this tar pit. It is a completely speculative field based on gratuitous/optional 'strong projection' postulate for composite systems i.e. that quantum measurement of the composite system observable [A1] x [A2] for two sub-systems A1 and A2 which have local observables [A1] and [A2], consists in some conjectured "ideal quantum aparatus" of independent, local measurements of [A1] and [A2]. In reality (the actual experiments), to obtain results for composite [A1] x [A2], results obtianed locally on [A1] are filtered based on the outcomes of remote local measurements of [A2] on the other system. Of course, with such non-local selection procedure, what is left may appear non-local. The critical experiment, violation of Bell inequalities, on the which that whole speculative superstructure rests, has resisted numerous experimental verification attempts for over half a century. There is whole new euphemistic language which evolved to describe this long chain of experimental failures while maintaining pretense that all will be fine as soon as they can build the "ideal quantum aparatus". E.g. you will see in some science news that soime team is getting new funding to trying performing first 'loophole free' test of Bell inequalities violation, meaning the experiment which actually violates the inequalities, hence acknowledging in a back-handed way (to the experts who can decipher the euphemistic language) that all experiments so far have failed. While the whole field (quantum magic) is fairly profitable to the main promoters, since there are always dupes who will invest into the magical quantum computers and other promised miracle devices, there is also a long chain of heretics (including pioneers of quantum theory such Einstein, Schrodinger, de Broglie and others) who knew better and kept pointing out the 'loopholes' in the latest claims. One of current era fellow 'heretics', professor Emilio Santos, compares the experimental situation in this field (paper) to the pursuit of perpetual motion devices by pseudo-scientific hucksters of few centuries ago, before the understanding of energy and entropy laws made that whole profitable field go extinct. All those demonstrations had some loophole of one kind or another, and loophole free device was always just around the corner, waiting for little bit smother cogs, bit stronger magnets, bit more elastic springs,... etc, just like present 'quantum magic' experiments keep waiting for little bit better detectors, better sources, better polarizers,... etc. before achieving their holey grail, the 'loophole free' test. In short, no, quantum theory shows or implies nothing of the sort about mind stuff. It's a pure speculation built on extremely flimsy measurement postulates and loopholes riddled experimental support (or in plain language, a long chain of failed experiments). Whatever you do, don't invest into 'quantum computing', unless you are sure you can resell the shares to other dupes at a profit before the company peddling them disappears.nightlight
March 28, 2013
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In re: Kairosfocus @ 33:
KN: Are you sure you want a kick-back? So far, the “pay” has on the whole been in hate sites, outing tactics, threats against families, slanders and worse. Might cost you being expelled, too.
You're a lousy salesperson, KF. Maybe I should sell my services directly to the Discovery Institute -- they can hire me as the Loyal Opposition. As for being "expelled," I assure you, my colleagues wouldn't care one bit if they knew I was posting here. And my career is already quickly going down in flames, so even if they did care, it wouldn't really matter. But if I hope to salvage what little of it remains, I really should put my energies into my real work, and comment here a lot less.Kantian Naturalist
March 28, 2013
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lastyearon, I'm an ID proponent and you're right that computers are not intelligent (by human standards) but they do have properties of intelligence since they are in various ways a reflection of our intelligence. Its not incorrect to say they mimic intelligent in some way. I don't see the need to get upset at this since this proves only intelligence can be responsible for intelligence which only makes ID's case stronger. I disagree with you that only God and humans are intelligent. There are obviously animals which are intelligent.computerist
March 28, 2013
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Nightlight, I am interested in your thoughts on a subject. How can science as a whole become complacent with the idea, for instance, that in order to confirm the existence of a fire, one would need such things as a supply of fuel, an oxidizing agent, a heat source, and finally the chemical process generally known as combustion (i.e. the rapid oxidation of fuel). Using the parameters which you indicate must be the basis of a scientific conclusion (i.e. model space, empirical procedures and facts, operational rules mapping numbers between the model and the empirical) how does science to come such a conclusion about fire? Or is such a conclusion arrived at through other appropriate scientific means, observation, materials knowledge, etc. Also, where does the complacency in such knowledge come from; is it simply that no one challenges that these are indeed the sufficient and necessary material means to a fire. And what should happen if someone should challenge that notion, what would be required of them? I hope this question makes at least a modicum of sense. I am asking in complete sincerity, and look forward to your response if you have time.Upright BiPed
March 28, 2013
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lastyearon, everything I type is describable in terms of physics. Computers don't run on magic, and they don't just poof text into existence. Is the text on your screen the result of electrons, or invisible pink unicorns? Is the ink on a newspaper physical, or magical? Stop pretending that agency is a causal force capable of explaining some of the things we observe in day-to-day life. Yes, I am the result of physics and chemistry. Since we can observe physical/chemical processes in the cell, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that physics and chemistry and a few million years can produce just about anything in the realm of biology. Case closed, nothing to see here, creationists go home. Science is working to solve these problems, not some bronze-age sky god.Chance Ratcliff
March 28, 2013
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Chance Ratcliff @51: No intelligence is required anywhere in the causal chain, and is superfluous to descriptions of computer systems and the software which runs on them.
Except, of course, when it was constructed and programmed... by an intelligent human.CentralScrutinizer
March 28, 2013
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Well, ChanceRatcliff, it sounds like you are an atheist-materialist-darwinist. And therefore you believe you're just a bunch of quarks and gluons randomly bumping into each other. Do you know of any quarks or gluons that can type out a blog post, let alone have a coherent idea? Yeah, I thought not. Therefore everything you say is obviously meaningless, and I'm going to stop trying to understand it.lastyearon
March 28, 2013
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lastyearon, computers are intelligent. They solve problems, run simulations, recognize faces, and break cryptograhpic codes all on their own. No intelligence is required anywhere in the causal chain, and is superfluous to descriptions of computer systems and the software which runs on them. There's nothing spooky about intelligence, and there's nothing that intelligence can accomplish that deep time and stochastic processes cannot also accomplish, if not in this universe, then in some other one. You can't prove that wind and rain, geological processes, and energy from the sun cannot eventually produce buildings, vehicles, and machinery. Computers are perfectly intelligent, even more so than humans. Not only can computers play chess better than humans, but they like chess, can learn to play on their own, and can understand the nuances of strategy, even appreciate the quality of an expensive chess set. It's just ridiculous to protest that this is anything but obvious.Chance Ratcliff
March 28, 2013
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nightlight:
Just because something can be repeated in the lab and reverse engineered into biochemical processes, that doesn’t imply that the underlying processes are ‘unintelligent’ or ‘random’.
Yes it does. Intelligence is Supernatural, and only humans have it. Everything else is just quarks and gluons bouncing around randomly. Sometimes atheist-materialist-darwinists try to pretend that a process or a thing can be intelligent. Like when they say that evolution is an intelligent process that can mimic design. Or they say that a computer can be intelligent enough to be a good chess player. But that's laughable, because obviously since evolution is not supernatural, its just molecules randomly bumping into each other. And a computer is obviously just electrons being told what to do by intelligent humans. Only humans (and God) are intelligent.lastyearon
March 28, 2013
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@kairosfocus #41: nightlight: basing ID on "conscious" intelligence is like building a house on a tar pit, resulting in endless semantic debates advancing nowhere. kairosfocus: Actually, not. The empirical fact of consciousness joined to intelligence is undeniable, on pain of self referential absurdity. Otherwise, we may properly ask, where is the text coming from? The 'usefulness' I was talking about is whether injection of 'consciousness' or 'mind(stuff)' as attribute of the intelligence behind biological designs is useful for ID perspective in becoming a legitimate scientific discipline, from its present ambiguous position. In contrast, you are talking about its usefulness for intuitive understanding and heuristic purposes (it is, of course). While the association between mind stuff (consciousness) and intelligence is intuitively self-evident and heuristically useful, basing scientific postulates of ID on mind stuff is counter-productive for ID becoming a scientific discipline. In any natural science, you need 3 basic elements: (M) -- Model space (formalism & algorithms) (E) -- Empirical procedures & facts of the "real" world (O) -- Operational rules mapping numbers between (M) and (E) While in physics these are all explicitly and cleanly delimited components, understood and discussed by physicists, they are also present in other natural sciences at least implicitly. Informally, the Model space (M) is a 'scaled down' model of empirical reality (E) in which the 'model reality' can be 'ran' as algorithms producing numbers and compared via (O) with facts of empirical reality (E). That type of relation between these elements is essential for any natural science. The problem with 'consciousness' is that there is nothing in models (M) of the current natural sciences that corresponds to it. It is simply an extraneous element that no one knows how to model, or what does it do and, if it does anything at all (i.e. if it's not a non-functional epiphenomenon), how does it do it (e.g. how does it affect matter-energy, what are the rules & limits). Injecting the mystery C(onsciousness) element into the (M) space of ID (as a natural science) as its foundation stone, merely drags the ID into the same scientific tar pit in which the element C is now. The sad irony is that all that ID argument implies regarding the origin of life and biological evolution (and possibly fine tuning) is an 'intelligent agency', readily modeled via computational & algorithmic modeling toolsets, to replace the crude 19th century mechanistic models of the neo-Darwinism (ND). Hence, I see the ambitious overreach by some key ID proponents to smuggle in 'mind' and other presently unscientific elements into its model space (M) as a great disservice to the otherwise highly convincing arguments ID makes. If someone wanted to sabotage the ID critique of ND-E, diverting it into the endless philosophical debates about nature of 'mind stuff' would be among the most effective derailment weapons. Of course, neo-Darwinian theory has smuggled in the gratuitous, unfalsifiable "random" mutation into its model space (M) for religious reasons as well (which via equivocation with 'aimless', 'purposeless' props their atheistic religion). That would normally be its major weakness against a purely scientific ID argument since they cannot demonstrate this 'randomness' as a source of novelty even in the case of "micro-evolution", let alone for macro-evolution or origin of life. Instead of hitting them on that Achilles heal, their completely unfalsifiable religious assertion of randomness, the present ID advocates needlessly concede power of random mutation in 'micro-evolution' while still hanging onto the macro-evolution and origin of life. Just because something can be repeated in the lab and reverse engineered into biochemical processes, that doesn't imply that the underlying processes are 'unintelligent' or 'random'. For example, just because a chess playing computer program can be reverse engineered and explained in full detail, that doesn't imply that it is playing random moves or that it is just some aimless shuffling of electrons that is responsible for its intelligent behavior. The chess program remains a highly intelligent process no matter how easily one can replicate it in the lab and explain its operation. Intelligence, despite its manifestations appearing sometimes astonishing and mystifying to observers, is not a synonym for inexplicable or irreproducible. It is sad to see how easily some on ID side have been hoodwinked by the neo-Darwinian sleight of hand that the two are synonymous in the case of micro-evolution, needlessly cornering themselves onto continually shrinking island of inexplicable and irreproducible.nightlight
March 28, 2013
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Optimus can think clearly and write beautifully. That is a hard combination to beat.StephenB
March 28, 2013
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Thanks for the post, KF. I'll try to respond to a few of the comments later in the day when I have the time...Optimus
March 28, 2013
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nightlight you claim that
“Consciousness” is outside of present natural science — there is no scientific model that can tell you ‘this arrangement of matter-energy is conscious and this one is not.’
Actually the 'hard problem of consciousness' is only a problem for atheistic materialists,,,
Darwinian Psychologist David Barash Admits the Seeming Insolubility of Science's "Hardest Problem" Excerpt: 'But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can't even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don't even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.' David Barash - Materialist/Atheist Darwinian Psychologist http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/post_33052491.html Neuroscientist: “The Most Seamless Illusions Ever Created” - April 2012 Excerpt: We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good. Matthew D. Lieberman - neuroscientist - materialist - UCLA professor http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/04/neuroscientist-most-seamless-illusions.html
,,,the 'hard problem of consciousness' is not a problem for Theists since Theist never claimed that consciousness was reducible to matter-energy. Indeed quantum mechanics has now confirmed the Theists contention that 'consciousness' precedes material reality:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
Perhaps nightlight instead of the futility of trying to explain how consciousness emerged from a material basis you should finally be 'scientific' and admit that your worldview is false?
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Max Planck - The Father Of Quantum Mechanics - Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944)(Of Note: Max Planck Planck was a devoted Christian from early life to death, was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God.
bornagain77
March 28, 2013
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nightlight
But the most problematic conflation common in the ID circles (which was strangely omitted by KN), is the blurring between the map and the territory, using interchangeably the generic term “evolution” for: (a) transformation process of biological systems (b) neo-Darwinian theory of (a) (modern synthesis) (c) other theories of (a), including intelligently guided
When the discussion proceeds beyond the point of abbreviated terms, it is the ID proponent that always makes the crucial distinctions and the Darwinist or Christian Darwinist who either conflate terms or twists their common meanings. Here are five quick examples (I could provide several more). [a] ID recognizes the validity of Darwin's Special Theory of Evolution and argues against Darwin's General Theory of Evolution. Darwinists and TEs, on the other hand, argue for Darwin's General Theory on the basis of the evidence for Darwin's Special Theory, implying that there is no difference between the two. [b] ID emphasizes the plausibility of guided (macro) evolution and the implausibility of unguided (macro) evolution. TEs, on the other hand, argue for unguided evolution while using the rhetoric of guided evolution For their part, Darwinists argue for unguided evolution and appeal to the rule of Methodological Naturalism as a means of ruling out evidence for guided evolution--with the approval of TEs. [c] ID believes that the researcher should follow where the evidence leads. Darwinists and TEs insist that some evidence should not be admitted. If Moses returned to part the waters of the Red Sea, advocates for Methodological Naturalism would force the scientist to assume that nature was acting on its own power. [d] ID acknowledges the difference between Philosophical Naturalism and Methodological Naturalism, but rightly argues that the practical difference is insignificant since science would proceed exactly the same way regardless of which approach is used. Darwinists and TEs dramatize the difference, pretending that the latter is permissible on the grounds that it is not precisely the former. [e] ID explains, truthfully, that Methodological Naturalism is a recent development that no one had ever heard of prior to the 20th century. Materialist Darwinists and Christian Darwinists, either through willful ignorance or malice, make fraudulant claims about MN's long history, even though it has no history at all.StephenB
March 28, 2013
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