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Optimus, replying to KN on ID as ideology, summarises the case for design in the natural world

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The following reply by Optimus to KN in the TSZ thread, is far too good not to headline as an excellent summary of the case for design as a scientifically legitimate view, not mere  “Creationism in a cheap tuxedo”  ideology motivated and driven by anti-materialism and/or a right-wing, theocratic, culture war mentality commonly ascribed to “Creationism” by its objectors:

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>> KN

It’s central to the ideological glue that holds together “the ID movement” that the following are all conflated:Darwin’s theories; neo-Darwinism; modern evolutionary theory; Epicurean materialistic metaphysics; Enlightenment-inspired secularism. (Maybe I’m missing one or two pieces of the puzzle.) In my judgment, a mind incapable of making the requisite distinctions hardly deserves to be taken seriously.

I think your analysis of the driving force behind ID is way off base. That’s not to say that persons who advocate ID (including myself) aren’t sometimes guilty of sloppy use of language, nor am I making the claim that the modern synthetic theory of evolution is synonymous with materialism or secularism. Having made that acknowledgement, though, it is demonstrably true that (1) metaphysical presuppostions absolutely undergird much of the modern synthetic theory. This is especially true with regard to methodological naturalism (of course, MN is distinct from ontological naturalism, but if, as some claim, science describes the whole of reality, then reality becomes coextensive with that which is natural). Methodological naturalism is not the end product of some experiment or series of experiments. On the contrary it is a ground rule that excludes a priori any explanation that might be classed as “non-natural”. Some would argue that it is necessary for practical reasons, after all we don’t want people atributing seasonal thunderstorms to Thor, do we? However, science could get along just as well as at present (even better in my view) if the ground rule is simply that any proposed causal explanation must be rigorously defined and that it shall not be accepted except in light of compelling evidence. Problem solved! Though some fear “supernatural explanation” (which is highly definitional) overwhelming the sciences, such concerns are frequently oversold. Interestingly, the much maligned Michael Behe makes very much the same point in his 1996 Darwin’s Black Box:

If my graduate student came into my office and said that the angel of death killed her bacterial culture, I would be disinclined to believe her…. Science has learned over the past half millenium that the universe operates with great regularity the great majority of the time, and that simple laws and predictable behavior explain most physical phenomena.
Darwin’s Black Box pg. 241

If Behe’s expression is representative of the ID community (which I would venture it is), then why the death-grip on methodological naturalism? I suggest that its power lies in its exclusionary function. It rules out ID right from the start, before even any discussions about the emprical data are to be had. MN means that ID is persona non grata, thus some sort of evolutionary explanation must win by default. (2) In Darwin’s own arguments in favor of his theory he rely heavily on metaphysical assumptions about what God would or wouldn’t do. Effectively he uses special creation by a deity as his null hypothesis, casting his theory as the explanatory alternative. Thus the adversarial relationship between Darwin (whose ideas are foundational to the MST) and theism is baked right into The Origin. To this very day, “bad design” arguments in favor of evolution still employ theological reasoning. (3) The modern synthetic theory is often used in the public debate as a prop for materialism (which I believe you acknowledged in another comment). How many times have we heard the famed Richard Dawkins quote to the effect that ‘Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist’? Very frequently evolutionary theory is impressed into service to show the superfluousness of theism or to explain away religion as an erstwhile useful phenomenon produced by natural selection (or something to that effect). Hardly can it be ignored that the most enthusiastic boosters of evolutionary theory tend to fall on the atheist/materialist/reductionist side of the spectrum (e.g. Eugenie Scott, Michael Shermer, P.Z. Meyers, Jerry Coyne, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Peter Atkins, Daniel Dennett, Will Provine). My point simply stated is that it is not at all wrong-headed to draw a connection between the modern synthetic theory and the aforementioned class of metaphysical views. Can it be said that the modern synthetic theory (am I allowed just to write Neo-Darwinism for short?) doesn’t mandate nontheistic metaphysics? Sure. But it’s just as true that they often accompany each other.

In chalking up ID to a massive attack of confused cognition, you overlook the substantive reasons why many (including a number of PhD scientists) consider ID to be a cogent explanation of many features of our universe (especially the bioshpere):

-Functionally-specified complex information [FSCI] present in cells in prodigdious quantities
-Sophisticated mechanical systems at both the micro and macro level in organisms (many of which exhibit IC)
-Fine-tuning of fundamental constants
-Patterns of stasis followed by abrupt appearance (geologically speaking) in the fossil record

In my opinion the presence of FSCI/O and complex biological machinery are very powerful indicators of intelligent agency, judging from our uniform and repeated experience. Also note that none of the above reasons employ theological presuppositions. They flow naturally, inexorably from the data. And, yes, we are all familiar with the objection that organisms are distinct from artificial objects, the implication being that our knowledge from the domain of man-made objects doesn’t carry over to biology. I think this is fallacious. Everyone acknowledges that matter inhabiting this universe is made up of atoms, which in turn are composed of still other particles. This is true of all matter, not just “natural” things, not just “artificial” things – everything. If such is the case, then must not the same laws apply to all matter with equal force? From whence comes the false dichotomy that between “natural” and “artificial”? If design can be discerned in one case, why not in the other?

To this point we have not even addressed the shortcomings of the modern synthetic theory (excepting only its metaphysical moorings). They are manifold, however – evidential shortcomings (e.g. lack of empirical support), unjustified extrapolations, question-begging assumptions, ad hoc rationalizations, tolerance of “just so” stories, narratives imposed on data instead of gleaned from data, conflict with empirical data from generations of human experience with breeding, etc. If at the end of the day you truly believe that all ID has going for it is a culture war mentality, then may I politely suggest that you haven’t been paying attention.>>

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Well worth reflecting on, and Optimus deserves to be headlined. END

Comments
the other mouth responds to kairosfocus:
The doubly odd thing is that AFAIK KF has no explanation for living cells either, other then “they were designed”.
How is that odd? That is a HUGE determination and effects all subsequent research. Even Dawkins recognizes that is changes everything. How odd for these "skeptics" to not be able to grasp that simple fact. And they sure as hell can't grasp the fact that if that the OoL and its subsequent evolution are directly linked. Meaning the only way darwinian evolution is responsible for the diversity of life is if blind and undirected chemical processes produced the first popluation(s) of living organisms. So it is rather difficult to have a discussion with these people when they can't even grasp simple concepts.Joe
March 28, 2013
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BV, also please note, I see a lockout on the site link. BTW, you can set up a link to a reference site or page keyed to by your name, at UD. Try clicking on my handle to see. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
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BV: Welcome to UD, I don't remember seeing you before. You will be happy to note that from the first technical design theory work in the 1980's, there has been a careful distinction between understanding that design as process can be studied on reliable signs thereof, and arguments as to who or what may be responsible for such designs. Inference that the designer of note in particular cases may or is likely to be God, is not a part of Design theory as theory. In the case of living forms, it is openly acknowledged that the evidence is such that -- as I have often put it -- any competent molecular microbiology nanotech lab of sufficiently many generations beyond Venter et al would be a sufficient cause. I suspect real artificial life will be done in such a lab before this century is out. The evidence of a fine tuned cosmos reflecting design that sets up cell based life, is of a different order. And that does much more directly raise questions about a mind behind the observed cosmos and even speculative multiverses. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
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Hi NL: Popping up for a moment:
basing ID on “conscious” intelligence is like building a house on a tar pit, resulting in endless semantic debates advancing nowhere.
Actually, not. The empirical fact of consciousness joined to intelligence is undeniable, on pain of self referential absurdity. Otherwise, we may properly ask, where is the text coming from? We know such as a matter of course and it is through such, that we access all other facts, however we may not notice that. So, it is proper to highlight that there are some signs that show such intelligence at work, directly or indirectly. And, to reason on such. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
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kf @4: Very interesting link.
In their new book The Language of Science and Faith, Karl Giberson and Francis Collins argue that "the distinction between micro and macro evolution is arbitrary." (p. 45, emphases in original) As a result, they assert that "macroevolution is simply microevolution writ large: add up enough small changes and we get a large change."
Particularly in light of the vociferous statements by some evolutionist proponents on this site in recent weeks (Nick, I believe?) that no competent evolutionist argues that macroevolution is just microevolution extrapolated over time. There is something unique and different about macroevolution, they claimed. Not so, say Giberson and Collins. And as we've known for some time, the real consensus is that macroevoltion is just microevolution writ large. Which thread was that again? Might be worth revisiting . . . BTW, Mung, I hope this helps answer your nagging and heart-felt question about macroevolution. Perhaps there is a reason Nick has gone so silent? There isn't anything special about macroevolution -- it is just microevolution writ large. :)Eric Anderson
March 28, 2013
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Optimus: Well said. Thanks kf for headlining Optimus' excellent comment. ----- KN @23: LOL! Where would we be without you!? :) Tell you what. Maybe we'll give you a kickback if you can accurately write a single-paragraph definition/description of the design inference, without any misstatements or misrepresentations. Better yet, get one of your friends to do so, say Elizabeth Liddle, and if she can manage it I'd even pitch in to help fund a prize. :) ----- nightlight: The word "evolution" has numerous meanings. However, in popular usage, in the press, in science textbooks, in discussions generally, it is understood to mean a purposeless, blind, undirected, unguided process. We don't need to say that every time the word is used -- it is understood. Only in the occasional cases in which we are talking about some kind of programmed, directed, or planned biological response or development do we need to qualify the word to something like "guided evolution" or "designed evolution." So I don't think it is a big deal that Cornelius Hunter, or anyone else for that matter, doesn't put an asterisk and a long explanatory footnote every time they use the word. We all know what he is referring to. WMJ @5 is right -- it is pretty easy to understand without semantic games. That is, unless someone is on a mission to misunderstand.Eric Anderson
March 28, 2013
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@SteRusJon: nightlight, objects to ID conflation of various uses of the term "evolution" and then proceeds to conflate the law driven operation of a chess program as an intelligent agent with the creative and innovative capabilities of the truly intelligent agent that designed it. How ironic! It's ironic only in a fragmented perspective you seem to have. As explained in the post above, it is a perfectly coherent position in the bottom-up, inside-out computational perspective, where the physical, chemical & biological laws are results of computation by the underlying layer (such Planckian networks in some pregeometry models of physics). In that Matrix-like perspective our "elementary" particles and laws they obey are large scale technologies designed and constructed by the underlying Planckian scale networks in the process of extending harmonization at ever larger scales, as if in pursuit of the perfect bliss of Leibniz monads, or Teilhard de Chardin's Omega Point. This is analogous to us constructing ever larger technologies for harmonizing our activities at ever larger scales (e.g. across the globe via internet). Motions of molecules making up your body and molecules making mine, which may be some molecules on opposite sides of the globe are meshing together, acting in harmony (disagreements notwithstanding) for few moments as we participate in the discussion here.nightlight
March 28, 2013
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As an agnostic, my version of intelligent design is not identical with that of most religious people. The participation by some deity in any creative process can be neither confirmed nor denied, so I respectfully disagree with most theists. I'd like to respectfully disagree with the materialists, but I find it impossible to respect intolerance. Most scientists are open minded, but a few high-profile Neo-Darwinists seem more interesting in waging war against the God concept than in understanding evolution. Materialism is as sacred a concept to some atheists as god is to theists. Berthajane Vandegrift http://myauthorsite.com/Berthajane Vandegrift
March 28, 2013
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Dr Liddle is making a category error. Along with "chance" and "necessity", design (artifice) is a categorical description of the behavior of certain phenomena. "Evolution", if taken outside of ideological assumption, only means "heritable variation and survival differential". These are processes, or mechanisms, not fundamental categorical descriptions of the behavior of phenomena. "Evolution", then, is a set of processes that move A to B. The question that ID asks (and Darwinists do not) is if necessity and chance provide a sufficient categorical description of how B came into existence via evolution, or if design is a necessary part of the evolutionary causal description. Therefore, saying that "design" and "evolution" produce "very similar complex, functional objects" is a categorical error, and begs the question: is chance and necessity a sufficient description of the process (whether you call it "evolution" or not) of moving A to B? Or, is design required?William J Murray
March 28, 2013
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nightlight: chess playing computer program -- it is an intelligent process, superior (i.e. more intelligent) in this domain (chess playing) to any human chess player. bornagain77: save for the fact that you are severely conflating the distinct entity of conscious intelligence with the brute force number crunching power of computers. "Consciousness" is outside of present natural science -- there is no scientific model that can tell you 'this arrangement of matter-energy is conscious and this one is not.' Hence, anything anyone claims about it is an opinion. I find the Leibniz-Spinoza type of panpsychism as the most coherent view on the subject, and in that perspective the above distinction is an empty semantic quibble that adds nothing. Hence basing ID on "conscious" intelligence is like building a house on a tar pit, resulting in endless semantic debates advancing nowhere. Anything resting on 'consciousness' as its foundation is automatically outside of science, leaving it at best in the realm of philosophy. In contrast, "computation" and "algorithms" are scientifically and technologically well accepted concepts which suffice in explaining anything attributed to type of intelligence implied (via ID argument) by the complexity of biological phenomena. Examples of behaviors covered by such computational & algorithmic models are goal directed, anticipatory behaviors, complex optimizations etc, exactly what ID is implying to be behind functionality and evolution of biological systems, origin of life or fine tuning of physical laws and constants. So, why would you lay your foundation on the quicksand of 'conscious' intelligence, when perfectly sufficient and scientifically solid building blocks, such as computation and algorithms, already exist? If Dawkins & Co. were to strategize and dream on how best to derail the ID objections to the hollowness of neo-Darwinian theory, they couldn't have dreamt a better way than have you base the ID alternative on 'conscious' intelligence as its foundation -- it's a sure way to send you down a dead end road. It's a perfect red herring. In the meantime, they'll rejigger semantics of their "mutation" and "adaptation" and "selection" so they fit the next advance, which will be in the computational and algorithmic models, as it is already understood by some far sighted folks, such as James Shapiro and many at the Santa Fe Institute (Complexity Science). As well you have a severe blind spot in that it impossible to account for the origination of these chess playing programs in the first place without reference to an intelligent, conscious, agent(s). Yes, there were designed by intelligent agents, called humans. Just as humans are designed by other intelligent agents, the cellular biochemical networks. Your body, including brain, is a 'galactic scale' technology, as it were, designed and constructed by these intelligent networks, who are the unrivalled masters of molecular engineering (human molecular biology and biochemistry are a child's babble compared to the knowledge, understanding and techniques of these magicians in that realm). In turn, the biochemical networks were designed and built by even smaller and much quicker intelligent agents, Planckian networks, which are computing the physics and chemistry of these networks as their large scale technologies (our physics and chemistry are coarse grained approximation of the real laws being computed). The net computational power in this hierarchy of smaller intelligent agents building ever larger ones, increases as you go down toward smaller scales, with higher levels being tiny fluctuations, providing small computational corrections & refinements to the much larger and more powerful underlying computations. Hence, in the perspective of that type, the distinction you make above is again a mere semantic quibble. Since in panpsychism consciousness is a fundamental attribute of elemental entities at the ground level, it's the same consciousness (answering "what is it like to be such and such entity") which combines into and permeates all levels, from elemental Planckian entities though us, and then through all our creations, including social organisms.nightlight
March 28, 2013
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Joe: has Dr Liddle provided observational evidence that blind chemical and physical processes can organise living cells with metabolic automata and built in code-using von Neumann kinematic self-replication? That such, again unaided, per observation, can create the further FSCO/I to achieve novel body plans requiring 10 - 100 mn bits of code just for the genomes? If she has invite her for me to submit a reply tot he six month old darwinism essay challenge. After all, it is a free kick at goal I have promised to host as at Sept 23 last year, once one is submitted. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
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KN: Are you sure you want a kick-back? So far, the "pay" has on the whole been in hate sites, outing tactics, threats against families, slanders and worse. Might cost you being expelled, too. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
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In post 2 above, nightlight, objects to ID conflation of various uses of the term "evolution" and then proceeds to conflate the law driven operation of a chess program as an intelligent agent with the creative and innovative capabilities of the truly intelligent agent that designed it. How ironic!SteRusJon
March 28, 2013
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Lizzie continues her equivocation:
The problem is that they also look like the products of evolution,
Yes, Intelligent Design Evolution. The broken parts, the degenerated parts, look like unguided evolution.
and given that the prerequisites of evolution are present
Yes, but HOW those prerequisites arose would determine how evolution proceeded- by design or culled willy-nilly.
(self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success) then there is no reason to postulate a designer for which we have no independent evidence.
Well the evidence for a designer wrt biology is independent of the evidence for a designer wrt physics. And if you require meeting the designer, then you ain't interested in science. However given that necessity and chance have been unable to explain what we observe, AND it fits the design criteria, we infer design. And yes, we do so tentatively, because that is just the nature of science. From "The Privileged Planet":
“The same narrow circumstances that allow us to exist also provide us with the best over all conditions for making scientific discoveries.”
“The one place that has observers is the one place that also has perfect solar eclipses.”
“There is a final, even more bizarre twist. Because of Moon-induced tides, the Moon is gradually receding from Earth at 3.82 centimeters per year. In ten million years will seem noticeably smaller. At the same time, the Sun’s apparent girth has been swelling by six centimeters per year for ages, as is normal in stellar evolution. These two processes, working together, should end total solar eclipses in about 250 million years, a mere 5 percent of the age of the Earth. This relatively small window of opportunity also happens to coincide with the existence of intelligent life. Put another way, the most habitable place in the Solar System yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them.”
Even Dawkins admits science can only allow so muck luck. Yet it appears that absent Intelligent Design, it is all luck, even the emergence of the laws.Joe
March 28, 2013
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Nightlight (19): Hence, MN would allow that chess playing program is an intelligent agency (agent). Therefore MN doesn’t exclude a hypothetical intelligent agency guiding processes of life and their evolution, either.
So that makes methodological naturalism ok? Wow!Box
March 28, 2013
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Of note: This ability to 'instantaneously' know answers to complex problems has long been a very intriguing characteristic of some autistic savants; Is Integer Arithmetic Fundamental to Mental Processing?: The mind's secret arithmetic Excerpt: Because normal children struggle to learn multiplication and division, it is surprising that some savants perform integer arithmetic calculations mentally at "lightning" speeds (Treffert 1989, Myers 1903, Hill 1978, Smith 1983, Sacks 1985, Hermelin and O'Connor 1990, Welling 1994, Sullivan 1992). They do so unconsciously, without any apparent training, typically without being able to report on their methods, and often at an age when the normal child is struggling with elementary arithmetic concepts (O'Connor 1989). Examples include multiplying, factoring, dividing and identifying primes of six (and more) digits in a matter of seconds as well as specifying the number of objects (more than one hundred) at a glance. For example, one savant (Hill 1978) could give the cube root of a six figure number in 5 seconds and he could double 8,388,628 twenty four times to obtain 140,737,488,355,328 in several seconds. Joseph (Sullivan 1992), the inspiration for the film "Rain Man" about an autistic savant, could spontaneously answer "what number times what number gives 1234567890" by stating "9 times 137,174,210". Sacks (1985) observed autistic twins who could exchange prime numbers in excess of eight figures, possibly even 20 figures, and who could "see" the number of many objects at a glance. When a box of 111 matches fell to the floor the twins cried out 111 and 37, 37, 37. http://www.centreforthemind.com/publications/integerarithmetic.cfmbornagain77
March 28, 2013
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“Computers are no more able to create information than iPods are capable of creating music.” Dr. Robert Marks Evolutionary Informatics - William Dembski and Robert Marks Excerpt: The principal theme of the lab’s research is teasing apart the respective roles of internally generated and externally applied information in the performance of evolutionary systems.,,, Evolutionary informatics demonstrates a regress of information sources. At no place along the way need there be a violation of ordinary physical causality. And yet, the regress implies a fundamental incompleteness in physical causality's ability to produce the required information. Evolutionary informatics, while falling squarely within the information sciences, thus points to the need for an ultimate information source qua intelligent designer. http://evoinfo.org/ "So, to sum up: computers can reshuffle specifications and perform any kind of computation implemented in them. They are mechanical, totally bound by the laws of necessity (algorithms), and non conscious. Humans can continuously create new specification, and also perform complex computations like a computer, although usually less efficiently. They can create semantic output, make new unexpected inferences, recognize and define meanings, purposes, feelings, and functions, and certainly conscious representations are associated with all those kinds of processes." Uncommon Descent blogger - gpuccio
bornagain77
March 28, 2013
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nightlight you may have had a point in this comment,,,
MN doesn’t imply anything of the sort (at least as I understand it). As a counter example, consider a chess playing computer program — it is an intelligent process, superior (i.e. more intelligent) in this domain (chess playing) to any human chess player.
,,,save for the fact that you are severely conflating the distinct entity of conscious intelligence with the brute force number crunching power of computers. As well you have a severe blind spot in that it impossible to account for the origination of these chess playing programs in the first place without reference to an intelligent, conscious, agent(s). Moreover,,,
Alan Turing and Kurt Godel - Incompleteness Theorem (As related to computers) and Human Intuition - video (notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8516356/ Are Humans merely Turing Machines? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvQeiN7DqBC0Z3PG6wo5N5qbsGGI3YliVBKwf7yJ_RU/edit
At the 11:50 minute mark of this following video 21 year old world Chess champion Magnus Carlsen explains that he does not know how he knows his next move of Chess instantaneously, that ‘it just comes natural’ to him to know the answer instantaneouly.
Mozart of Chess: Magnus Carlsen – video http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7399370n&tag=contentMain;contentAux A chess prodigy explains how his mind works – video Excerpt: What’s the secret to Magnus’ magic? Once an opponent makes a move, Magnus instantaneously knows his own next move. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57380913-10391709/a-chess-prodigy-explains-how-his-mind-works Another reason why the human mind is not like a computer - June 2012 Excerpt: In computer chess, there is something called the “horizon effect”. It is an effect innate in the algorithms that underpin it. Due to the mathematically staggering number of possibilities, a computer by force has to restrict itself, to establish a fixed search depth. Otherwise the calculations would never end. This fixed search depth means that a ‘horizon’ comes into play, a horizon beyond which the software engine cannot peer. Anand has shown time and again that he can see beyond this algorithm-imposed barrier, to find new ways, methods of changing the game. Just when every successive wave of peers and rivals thinks they have got his number, Anand sees that one, all important, absolute move.” https://uncommondescent.com/computer-science/another-reason-why-the-human-mind-is-not-like-a-computer/ Epicycling Through The Materialist Meta-Paradigm Of Consciousness GilDodgen: One of my AI (artificial intelligence) specialties is games of perfect knowledge. See here: worldchampionshipcheckers.com In both checkers and chess humans are no longer competitive against computer programs, because tree-searching techniques have been developed to the point where a human cannot overlook even a single tactical mistake when playing against a state-of-the-art computer program in these games. On the other hand, in the game of Go, played on a 19×19 board with a nominal search space of 19×19 factorial (1.4e+768), the best computer programs are utterly incompetent when playing against even an amateur Go player.,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/epicycling-through-the-materialist-meta-paradigm-of-consciousness/#comment-353454 Computers simply cannot create information: No nontrivial formal utility has ever been observed to arise as a result of either chance or necessity. - David L. Abel: Excerpt: Decision nodes, logic gates and configurable switch settings can theoretically be set randomly or by invariant law, but no nontrivial formal utility has ever been observed to arise as a result of either. Language, logic theory, mathematics, programming, computation, algorithmic optimization, and the scientific method itself all require purposeful choices at bona fide decision nodes. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/david-l-abel-%E2%80%9Cno-nontrivial-formal-utility-has-ever-been-observed-to-arise-as-a-result-of-either-chance-or-necessity-%E2%80%9D/ Chaitin’s Algorithmic Information Theory shows that information is conserved under formal mathematical operations and, equivalently, under computer operations. This conservation law puts a new perspective on many familiar problems related to artificial intelligence. For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomenon: the creation of new information. "... no operation performed by a computer can create new information." -- Douglas G. Robertson, "Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test," Complexity, Vol.3, #3 Jan/Feb 1999, pp. 25-34. Can a Computer Think? - Michael Egnor - March 31, 2011 Excerpt: The Turing test isn't a test of a computer. Computers can't take tests, because computers can't think. The Turing test is a test of us. If a computer "passes" it, we fail it. We fail because of our hubris, a delusion that seems to be something original in us. The Turing test is a test of whether human beings have succumbed to the astonishingly naive hubris that we can create souls.,,, It's such irony that the first personal computer was an Apple. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/failing_the_turing_test045141.html At last, a Darwinist mathematician tells the truth about evolution - VJT - November 2011 Excerpt: In Chaitin’s own words, “You’re allowed to ask God or someone to give you the answer to some question where you can’t compute the answer, and the oracle will immediately give you the answer, and you go on ahead.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-last-a-darwinist-mathematician-tells-the-truth-about-evolution/
bornagain77
March 28, 2013
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More Lizzie nonsense:
What he demonstrates is that the distribution of characteristics among species does indeed form a tree (as previously demonstrated by Linnaeus) and a) shows that this is consistent with the hypothesis that it does in fact reflect a family tree (common ancestry)
Umm Linnean classification was based on a common design.Joe
March 28, 2013
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Can anyone provide any evidence for unguided evolution producing CSI? Will Lizzie ever support her claims? I say 'No', she won't because she can't. But she will keep making them...Joe
March 28, 2013
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A kick-back for a butt-kicking?Joe
March 28, 2013
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This is at least the third or fourth Uncommon Descent post that's been presented as a direct response to something I've said. Don't I at least get a kick-back?Kantian Naturalist
March 28, 2013
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Lizzie responding to WJM:
What there is a lack of is evidence that would distinguish the product of design from the product of evolution.
We can distinguish between design and unguided evolution.
The two processes result in very similar products...
Bald assertion.
(although as yet, human-designed products lack the ability to self-reproduce, except in virtual space, and self-replication is a the necessarily condition for evolution).
Your position cannot account for self-replication. And evolution can occur by design. And Joyce/ Lincoln designed RNAs capable of self-sustained replication.
My position is this: A.Evolution and design can both produce complex functional evidence.
Unguided evolution cannot produce anything. And the other mouth chimes in with more nonsense:
The only “evidence” for ID is at the OOL, what happens after is all down to “random chance” (sigh).
WRONG! If organisms were designed then random chance has very little to do with evolution. Organisms = design, evolution is by design as in organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design. It is only if random chance produced living organisms can we uinfer random chance produced the diversity observed.Joe
March 28, 2013
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Joe, in a rush just now, it's budget debate time. Paley's self replicating watch example is material to the disanalogy careless objection and has been in the IOSE for years, in Paley for 200+ years. So this is a strawman. Where my point is that MS Office is definitely designed but is non-optimal so the want of perfection objection is refuted by counter example. As has been painstakingly explained over and over, the only empirically grounded and needle in the haystack credible explanation for FSCO/I is design. So, we have excellent reason to see FSCO/I as a reliable sign of design, even when that is not comfortable for evo mat advocates and fellow travellers. If they object further let them account on observation for origin of cell based life and complex body plans per their suggested mechanisms. The six months no answer challenge is telling on that. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
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@kairosfocus <= Thanks for the informative rationale for re-posting the response by Optimus, which I found insightful as well (I especially liked his observation on contrived distinctions between 'artificial' and 'natural' intelligent processes). As a theoretical physicist (my day job is 'chief scientist' in computer industry working on problems like this) I also visit your blog, finding it quite interesting and generally agreeable with my positions. Your comment addresses mostly the epistemological forms of the conflation, and I am in agreement with those observations. I also find convincing Dembski's FSC results (no free lunch, etc). But the most problematic conflation common in the ID circles (which was strangely omitted by KN), is the blurring between the map and the territory, using interchangeably the generic term "evolution" for: (a) transformation process of biological systems (b) neo-Darwinian theory of (a) (modern synthesis) (c) other theories of (a), including intelligently guided For example Cornelius appears to claim that (a) doesn't exist because (b) is inadequate explanation for FSC. Among others, he rejects that large stretches of common DNA patterns imply any form of common origin, not just the explanation (b) for such commonality. My objection to that is that if two patterns A and B share large common stretches with lots of free choices along the pattern, the commonality is due to "common origin" of A and B in "some form" on purely probabilistic grounds -- e.g. if each free choice has q > 1 equiprobable values, and there are n such choices in common between A and B, then the odds of this commonality arising by chance are 1/q^n -> 0 as n->inf. The common origin in "some form" is thus a virtual necessity for large enough q^n (the size of event space). Hence, one cannot avoid conclusion that biological systems have property (a). As to what "some form" of common origin could be is another question, unrelated to validity of conjecture (b). The "common origin" may be the common intelligent agency reusing the common blueprints to produce new, more advanced lifeforms, just as human designers would do with technological innovations. In the latter case, we have no problem in saying that e.g. Windows OS has evolved, from Version 2 to 3,.. 8, i.e. classifying it as process of type (a). I think the same can be said about evolution of 'life technology' as process (a). As explained in the previous post, if one allows for possibility that physical laws are result of some underlying computations by an intelligent process (such as Planckian networks), then the designer, the blueprints and the product (organism) are coexistent in the same chunk of space-time & matter-energy, hence it doesn't matter in which sense one interprets 'common origin' of life-forms in (a) -- at one level of explanation (coarse grained physical laws) it appears as if one type of organism has transformed over generations into another type. Of course, the "mutation" in this case is not "random" as gratuitously claimed by (b), but it is intelligently guided/designed. This is in fact quite consistent with the perspective of James Shapiro, although I think he is still oversimplifying the picture by looking narrowly at the evolution only, ignoring problems of origin of life and of the fine tuning of physical laws & constants. In contrast the "Planckian networks" perspective addresses all three problems with a single type of explanation (additive intelligence of adaptable networks from ground level and up).nightlight
March 28, 2013
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While Optimus makes several insightful observations, there is a bit I potentially disagree with (I am not sure whether it is semantics or on substance): @Optimus: ...why the death-grip on methodological naturalism? I suggest that its power lies in its exclusionary function. It rules out ID right from the start, before even any discussions about the empirical data are to be had. MN means that ID is persona non grata, MN doesn't imply anything of the sort (at least as I understand it). As a counter example, consider a chess playing computer program -- it is an intelligent process, superior (i.e. more intelligent) in this domain (chess playing) to any human chess player. How does MN exclude intelligent agency as an explanation for performance of chess playing program? It doesn't, since functionality of such program is fully explicable using conventional scientific methods. Hence, MN would allow that chess playing program is an intelligent agency (agent). Therefore MN doesn't exclude a hypothetical intelligent agency guiding processes of life and their evolution, either. It only excludes 'deus ex machina' proposals (such as invocation of "mind" as an explanation, since present natural science lacks a model for "mind stuff"; cf. hard problem of consciousness). For example, you can't scientifically claim that observed level of complexity implies "intelligent mind" as a designer, since there is no scientific counterpart for "mind" in the current natural science. The only scientifically valid statement is that observed complexity implies "intelligent process" as a designer. Of course, the "intelligent process" gives rise to the problem of infinite regression, i.e. the conjecture that ever more "intelligent" processes are required to explain the origin of previous "intelligent" processes. One possible way to terminate such 'tower of turtles' is to construct models which have a property of 'additive intelligence' i.e. systems in which replicating less intelligent agents and linking them in an interacting network forms a more intelligent agent. For example of such 'additive intelligence' consider a technological society which is a more intelligent agency than any of the humans or machines forming it (in the sense of being capable of solving much more difficult and complex problems than any of the component agencies is capable of). Similarly, an ant colony is a more intelligent agency than an ant. Note that such "additive intelligence" models need not be restricted to "live" system only. For example, it may turn out that our present physical laws (which are statistical at their foundation, quantum field theory/QFT) are merely a coarse grained regularity of some much more subtle intelligent process to which our present laws are oblivious. That is, our current physical laws may be like statistical laws of traffic flows which take the cars as "elementary objects" of the theory, oblivious to the intelligent process inside each car, guiding it for its own far reaching purposes. The statistical laws of traffic flows don't contradict the internal intelligent guidance of each car -- the two sets of patterns coexist harmoniously at different scales. Note for example that between the Planck scale of 10^-35 m for elemental (minimum) distance, and our current "elementary" particles at ~ 10^-15 m there are 20 orders of magnitude of scale for potential complexity to build up to make our "elementary" particles go around. That is 5 orders of magnitude more in available scale than what is needed to build up us (at O(1) meter scale) from our "elementary" particles. Since we're looking in 3-D space, the complexity achievable by Planckian objects can have (10^20)^3 = 10^60 more cogs per unit of space than our own computing technology designed and built from our "elementary" particles can have. If you then account for the 10^20 times shorter distances between smallest Planckian cogs, then their signals (limited by the same speed of light) need 10^20 times shorter time between the cogs, hence their "CPU clocks" can run 10^20 times faster than our fastest CPU clocks. The net result is that such Planckian network would be 10^60 (more cogs) x 10^20 (faster clocks) = 10^80 times more powerful computing system per unit of space than our best technology constructed from our "elementary" particles can ever be. With that kind of ratio in computing power, anything computed by this Planckian network would be to us indistinguishable from a godlike intelligence beyond our wildest imagination and comprehension. Note that there are already various network like pregeometry models of Planck scale objects, and although hypothetical they are in principle possible (e.g. check Wolfram's NKS). With suitable additional assumptions about the adaptability of the network links (e.g. a la Hebbian rule), such models would indeed be distributed computers similar to neural networks, self-programming and capable of combining smaller intelligence of subnetworks into larger intelligence of the whole network. In this model, physical laws are being computed, particle by particle, moment by moment, continuously by this vast underlying supersmart network, like real Matrix without childish naivete of the Hollywood version (and of course, without a way out, since there is no out if you are made of it). The biochemical networks of live cells are then the galactic scale technological projects by these intelligent Planckian networks, the kind of projects humans may achieve at their level in thousands or in millions of years (if we make it that long without nuking ourselves into oblivion or getting replaced by our own computers). @Optimus: thus some sort of evolutionary explanation must win by default. That seems to be the conflation of the map and the territory discussed in the previous post -- "evolution" as (a) natural process in some systems, and (b) explanation of such process. Why can't biological systems evolve if cars, TV, computers,... can evolve?nightlight
March 28, 2013
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There are similarities too- as in your position cannot account for either.
A human programmer created MS Office.
That's right. And taht means blind and undirected processes did NOT. Thank you for proving my point- your position cannot account for MS office.Joe
March 28, 2013
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other mouth:
Then if FSCO/I can be calculated, as is claimed, that statement can be verified simply by calculating the before and after FSCO/I.
Kind of hard to do when we cannot see the instructional code only the hardware.
If it does not change after such a significant event as the ability to digest citrate becoming available then the point is proven.
Dude, YOU cannot demonstrate that the change was via blind and undirected chemical processes. And THAT is the whole point. So AGAIN, you need to focus on YOUR position. Attacking ID will NEVER provide positive evidence for evolutionism. NEVER. Especially when you attack ID with ignorance...Joe
March 28, 2013
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other mouth to KF:
There are some significant differences between MS Office and biological life.
There are similarities too- as in your position cannot account for either.Joe
March 28, 2013
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Can we start a thread that is a direct challenge to Elizabeth Liddle to support her claim that "Dembski's CSI can be created by darwinian means"? Or are we OK with her bald assertions of ID being refuted?Joe
March 28, 2013
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