Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Orthomyxo Types on Keyboard; When Letters Appear on Screen “It’s Physical!”

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The appalling depths to which materialists will sink in attempting to insulate themselves from the conclusions compelled by the evidence were demonstrated in this exchange between Orthomyxo and Upright Biped regarding the genetic code:

UB: There is a point in time and space where an association is made between a codon and an anticodon. There is also a point in time and space when there is an association made between an anticodon and an amino acid.

UB: the association between the codon and the amino acid is a discontinuous association. It is not established by dynamics, but by a) a specific type of organization, and b) simultaneous coordination between two independent sets of multiple sequences

Note that the nothing UB said is the least bit controversial. All he is saying is that the genetic code works like any other code. As KF frequently notes, Crick knew this from the very beginning. Nearly 70 years ago (March 19, 1952) he wrote:

Which is why Orthomyxo’s reply is so stunning. Ortho’s deeply held metaphysical views are threatened by UB’s observation, so he says:

I really can’t say I find this to be a very good argument. The question is does the genetic code work through a series of chemical reactions. You say the chemical reaction that links amino acid to tRNA and the one that links loaded tRNAs to a codon are “discontinuous” because they happen at different times. (I presume by this you a referring to the fact loaded tRNAs used in translation are drawn from a pool of already made “translation-ready” tRNAs?). But I don’t see how that changes the fact that the genetic code works via a series of chemical reactions.

Ortho: Never mind that hyper-sophisticated “string data structure carrying a prong-height-based alphanumeric, 4 state per character code that uses chemical interactions and geometry at physical level.”* Nothing to see here. It’s chemical reactions all the way down.

UB sums up Ortho’s willfully obdurate reaction to the evidence:

You can push the “A” key on your computer and the letter “A” will appear on your screen. You can then ignore everything else and steadfastly argue that this entire process “works” by dynamics. This is the cop out that Ed chooses because he is intellectually unwilling to face the necessary coordination of symbol vehicles and constraints (i.e. the discontinuous association) required for the system to actually function as it does. If this is your cop out as well, then you are certainly free to take it. Is this your cop out? Regardless of your answer to that question, when you say that it is ”absolutely the case that the next amino acid in a developing protein is determined by chemistry” you are wrong. That chain of events from DNA to binding is undeniably discontinuous, just as it is from the “A” key on your computer to the letter “A” appearing on your screen.

__________

*HT: KF

Comments
. From a paper cited on another thread: Marshall Nirenberg, the Nobel Laurate who began the process of breaking the gene code: "The genetic language now is known, and it seems clear that most, if not all, forms of life on this planet use the same language, with minor variations." Wait 'til Ed hears about this. Very sloppy.Upright BiPed
May 10, 2020
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. SE, Thanks for the reminder, I had completely forgotten about that passage. I wonder of JVL thinks digital coding of the gene requires a rate-independent symbol system, interpretive constraints, spatial orientation, and a language structure (code). If it does, I wonder if he/she thinks it has to successfully describe itself in order to persist over time. If it does, I wonder at what point in time he/she thinks it had to start successfully describing itself.Upright BiPed
May 10, 2020
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ID's design detection can be refuted if someone, anyone, can just step up and demonstrate that nature is up to the task of producing whatever we are investigating. The fact that no one can do so is very telling. There isn't anything in any college biology or evolutionary textbook that supports unguided evolution. Nothing. The peer-reviewed paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" proves that color vision, for example, is well beyond the reach of unguided evolution. So forget about macroevolution. There isn't anything in any college biology textbook that says how to test the claim that any bacterial flagellum evolved via unguided evolutionary processes. The same goes for vision systems, ATP synthase, the genetic code, tRNA's- the list is virtually endless. After 160 years there still isn't a scientific theory for unguided evolution. No one uses it to guide their research. The concept is useless.ET
May 10, 2020
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seversky:
The genetic code resembles human languages and codes in some ways.
The genetic code is a real code in the same sense as Morse code: Larry Moran on the real genetic codeET
May 10, 2020
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SE, solid citation. KFkairosfocus
May 10, 2020
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Solemn Existence @132: I wouid like to see the response to your comment. ;)jawa
May 10, 2020
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Solemn Existence @131: That’s an interesting observation indeed. Is French your first language?jawa
May 10, 2020
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Seversky @116 "You want certainty where there is none to be had." One thing is for sure, let me quote someone you might respect: "...we know that genes themselves, within their minute internal structure, are long strings of pure digital information What is more, they are truly digital, in the full and strong sense of computers and compact disks, not in the weak sense of the nervous system. The genetic code is not a binary code as in computers, nor an eight-level code as in some telephone systems, but a quaternary code, with four symbols The machine code of the genes is uncannily computerlike. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular-biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer-engineering journal. . . . Our genetic system, which is the universal system of all life on the planet, is digital to the core With word-for-word accuracy, you could encode the whole of the New Testament in those parts of the human genome that are at present filled with “junk” DNA – that is, DNA not used, at least in the ordinary way, by the body. Every cell in your body contains the equivalent of forty-six immense data tapes, reeling off digital characters via numerous reading heads working simultaneously. In every cell, these tapes – the chromosomes – contain the same information, but the reading heads in different kinds of cells seek out different parts of the database for their own specialist purposes. . . . Genes are pure information – information that can be encoded, recoded and decoded, without any degradation or change of meaning. Pure information can be copied and, since it is digital information, the fidelity of the copying can be immense. DNA characters are copied with an accuracy that rivals anything modern engineers can do." Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden, 16-19solemn existence
May 9, 2020
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ET @84 "Lenski’s LTEE is showing us how impotent evolutionary processes are with respect to universal common descent" Couldn't help noticing, but LTEE in French is short for 'limitëe' Or 'limited' Interesting coincidence i thought :) N'est-ce pas?solemn existence
May 9, 2020
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JVL
Funny that a presumed atheist has to remind you of the Golden Rule.
When a person encounters someone wallowing in error, the most loving thing they can do is try to correct them. When their attempts at correction are met with dissembling, obfuscation, and dismissal, the most loving thing they can do is attempt to shock them from their complacency. UB has done the loving thing.Barry Arrington
May 9, 2020
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JVL
I have admitted when my views are not coherent. I guess that makes me inferior.
Well yes, it does. You are not inferior as a person. But if your views are not coherent (and they are not) then your reasoning skills are inferior to those who have coherent views. Surely you understand that.Barry Arrington
May 9, 2020
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. More dissembling. I have answered your question about "disagreeing with me" repeatedly. It is my answer that you won't engage with. Here it is again:
You are not merely disagreeing with the interpretation, you are avoiding acknowledgement of the science and history behind the interpretation. You are saying the science (clearly documented in the literature and is not even in question) is not what it is, and then telling yourself that you are merely disagreeing with the interpretation.
Did John Von Neumann successfully predict the organizational requirements of an autonomous open-ended self-replicator, based on the use of symbols and constraints to encode quiescent descriptions in memory? Truly, I expect no answer.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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Upright Biped: If you find it easier, we can start at the top and roll through the observations one at a time if you like. Since you don't seem to have even the basic decency to acknowledge my questions then I don't think I'll play your game and jump through your hoops. You play with people. You don't seem to really care about them. Funny that a presumed atheist has to remind you of the Golden Rule. But I guess you didn't promise to be consistent between your beliefs and your actions.JVL
May 9, 2020
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. #124 If you find it easier, we can start at the top and roll through the observations one at a time if you like. Did John Von Neumann successfully predict the organizational requirements of an autonomous open-ended self-replicator, based on the use of symbols and constraints to encode quiescent descriptions in memory?Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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The only thing missing from this thread is TruthFreedom and his condescension. Has he been banned?Ed George
May 9, 2020
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Upright BiPed: You can agree with the physical analysis of the system — that the gene system is multi-referent symbol system using a set of interpretive constraints — anytime you wish. That is what is documented in the literature, and the observations behind it are not even in question. I don't see what this response has to do with the questions I asked in post 121. And, as I said, I'm not disputing the basic science, I am disputing the interpretation of that data that implies it must have been intelligently designed. Are you not even going to apologise for the 'cowgirl' reference?JVL
May 9, 2020
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. #121
You are not merely disagreeing with the interpretation, you are avoiding acknowledgement of the science and history behind the interpretation. You are saying the science (clearly documented in the literature and not even in question) is not what it is, and then telling yourself that you are merely disagreeing with the interpretation.
You can agree with the physical analysis of the system -- that the gene system is multi-referent symbol system using a set of interpretive constraints -- anytime you wish. That is what is documented in the literature, and the observations behind it are not even in question. You can either agree, or disagree with reason, or abandon the argument. That is your choice..Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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. # 120
Seversky is NOT trying to make a case against the physics. He’s arguing against your interpretation of the physics
My comments about the system are based on the observations documented in the literature and in history of science. If he has a objection to those observations, then he can make it.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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Upright BiPed: Your not inferior, you are dissembling. So, do you think I am an intelligent human being? Am I a 'cowgirl' that you can just dismiss because I disagree with you? Is my view just so wrong that you can just assume I haven't really thought about it or that I am just some sheeple following the god of Darwin? I'm dissembling so I'm a liar? Is that it?JVL
May 9, 2020
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Upright BiPed: If you are going to make a case against the physics Sev, then make it. Seversky is NOT trying to make a case against the physics. He's arguing against your interpretation of the physics.JVL
May 9, 2020
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. #117
I guess that makes me inferior.
Your not inferior, you are dissembling.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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. #116
The genetic code resembles human languages and codes in some ways.
If you are going to make a case against the physics Sev, then make it.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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Upright Biped: This is just more dissembling. I’m not responsible for the inconsistencies in your actions and statements, nor the fact that you show up to act them out in public. I am a human being and sometimes we are inconsistent. I have tried to be honest and admitted when my views are not coherent. I guess that makes me inferior. As I have already noted: You are not merely disagreeing with the interpretation, you are avoiding acknowledgement of the science and history behind the interpretation. You are saying the science (clearly documented in the literature and not even in question) is not what it is, and then telling yourself that you are merely disagreeing with the interpretation. Yes, because the facts are the same. But you interpret them in a way which I do not find supported. And I've come to that conclusion after spending a lot of time considering all the arguments on both sides. Because I disagree with you you choose to cast that as me denying the science, but that is your interpretation. And it is not universally held as well you know. As I said, those are two very different things. Your response is to dissemble further (surprise surprise) in part, by suggesting that you are now a poor victim who is not allowed to disagree. You tell me what position I can take that disagrees with your interpretation and yet would still get you to consider me an intelligent human being. Time and time again I have tried to engage in a discussion, tried to be honest and straight and yet I am always told that I am lying or dissembling or ignorant or just plain stupid. From my perspective there seems to be no way to come to a contrary conclusion from yours without being labelled as inferior in some way. If I completely agreed with your view of what a materialist should think then I'm damned because I'm nothing better than a meat machine that cannot think. If I attempt to find a middle ground somewhere then I am deluded and inconsistent. If I agree with you then I guess I'm good. Can you point to a stance that anyone could take in opposition to yours that would still have you consider the person to be sane and intelligent? If you can't think of one then why should anyone who disagrees with you bother trying to have a dialogue? And, importantly, are you really interested in a dialogue? Give it a rest cowgirl. Offensive and misogynistic. Well done.JVL
May 9, 2020
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Upright BiPed @ 115
As I have already noted: You are not merely disagreeing with the interpretation, you are avoiding acknowledgement of the science and history behind the interpretation. You are saying the science (clearly documented in the literature and not even in question) is not what it is, and then telling yourself that you are merely disagreeing with the interpretation.
Good grief, UB Nothing in science is beyond question. That is clearly documented in the literature. If that were the case then Newtonian mechanics would still be gospel in physics. The genetic code resembles human languages and codes in some ways. Our languages and codes are useful metaphors when trying to explain what happens in the genome but that does not necessarily entail that the genome was the creation of an extraterrestrial intelligence. We cannot rule that out as a possibility but neither can you rule out the possibility that it evolved through natural causes. You want certainty where there is none to be had.Seversky
May 9, 2020
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. Good grief, JVL
I don’t know what you want from me. When I’m honest you accuse me of being dishonest and manipulative.
This is just more dissembling. I’m not responsible for the inconsistencies in your actions and statements, nor the fact that you show up to act them out in public. As I have already noted: You are not merely disagreeing with the interpretation, you are avoiding acknowledgement of the science and history behind the interpretation. You are saying the science (clearly documented in the literature and not even in question) is not what it is, and then telling yourself that you are merely disagreeing with the interpretation. As I said, those are two very different things. Your response is to dissemble further (surprise surprise) in part, by suggesting that you are now a poor victim who is not allowed to disagree. Give it a rest cowgirl.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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ET: And yet both forensic science and archaeology remain successful at doing so. I meant ID design detection. Please try and read more than just the particular posts directed at you. Present it, then. I know that they haven’t. Dr. Behe has made a living off of that fact. Read any good university level evolution text book. Assuming you've already done that then there's not much point in continuing the conversation: we disagree on the interpretation of the evidence and there's not much more to say. Dr Behe has a tenured position at a good university; he does NOT make a living on his ID position. And I doubt that you have done that. I doubt that you have the capability to do it. How come you get to be rude to other participants but if I do the same I get banned? There isn’t any argument for unguided processes ability to produce anything beyond genetic diseases and deformities. Even the paper “Waiting for TWO Mutations” demonstrates the futility of your position. Not only do you need the right mutations to occur, you need them to get by the error-correction and proof-reading mechanisms. What if Dr Behe was incorrect in his evaluation of the data in his paper? It has been roundly dismissed by working scientists. So, if you want to consider all the data, why do you disregard the criticisms of Dr Behe's work? You accuse me of being biased and making prejudgements . . . how do you know you're not doing that? As I keep telling you, luck can only get you so far. And all you have is sheer, dumb luck. When you say things that clearly do not reflect the state of unguided evolutionary research then I wonder if you really understand it. You do dismiss the evidence. Or rather you are incapable of assessing it. Like Kairosfocus and Bornagain77 and Upright Biped you seem to feel that anyone who disagrees with you is defective or evil in some way. So, please explain if it's possible to disagree with you on these issues and not be trashed by you? If it's not possible then explain why I should bother trying to engage in a conversation any more?JVL
May 9, 2020
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JVL:
Anytime someone disagrees with you you say they are dismissing evidence.
You do dismiss the evidence. Or rather you are incapable of assessing it.ET
May 9, 2020
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JVL:
I haven’t seen a publication laying out the various methods of design detection and showing the rate of false positives and false negatives.
And yet both forensic science and archaeology remain successful at doing so.
I think they have shown that some biological structures could have come about through unguided processes.
Present it, then. I know that they haven't. Dr. Behe has made a living off of that fact.
After having read arguments on both sides I think the design inference, as it exists, is not sound.
And I doubt that you have done that. I doubt that you have the capability to do it. There isn't any argument for unguided processes ability to produce anything beyond genetic diseases and deformities. Even the paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" demonstrates the futility of your position. Not only do you need the right mutations to occur, you need them to get by the error-correction and proof-reading mechanisms. As I keep telling you, luck can only get you so far. And all you have is sheer, dumb luck.ET
May 9, 2020
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Ed George:
1) That DNA works through chemical reactions, and,
What does that even mean? The question pertained to the genetic code and not just DNA. What chemical reaction initiated the process? What chemical reaction initiated proof-reading and error-correction? What do chemical reactions even have to do with proof-reading and error-correction? One of Eddie's issues is he claims victory while ignoring everything that calls his conclusions into question.
2) That humans are the only known source of language.
That depends on how one defines "language". Other organisms can definitely communicate. And if it couldn't have been humans nor any other organism on Earth, then the inference is it was some other intelligent agency. Nature remains eliminated as a possible cause.ET
May 9, 2020
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Kairosfocus: there you go again, dismissing empirically observable informational, string data structure — thus, physical! — evidence that shows language at work in the heart of the cell., Anytime someone disagrees with you you say they are dismissing evidence. Is it possible for someone to disagree with you without being criticised? I am NOT denying factual evidence; I am disagreeing with your design inference. You demand separate direct evidence when there is evidence that cannot be shown to arise by blind chance and/or necessity but on trillions of cases (including your own comments) readily comes about by intelligently directed configuration aka design. I am not demanding anything. I've been trying really hard to honestly explain my stance to you. And, again, I disagree with you about your design inference. I guess I can't do that without you labelling me as a denialist. Where, our existence demonstrates that designers are possible while giving utterly no reason to doubt that other designers may also be possible. This is a capital example of disregarding cogent but inconvenient evidence in hand by demanding that it be dismissed, while pretending to be open to evidence that you would be just as inclined to dismiss were it put on the table. Kindly, think again. Again, I have tried to be honest and clear explaining my views and stance. But all I get from you is that I'm clearly in denial. Is there any point in my trying to answer your queries anymore? You seem determined to not give me the benefit of any doubt.JVL
May 9, 2020
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