Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Outsider Meddling — Skeptics Need Not Apply (or, Just Have Faith)

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Someone by the name of skeech is cluttering up UD with impervious sophistry and wasting a lot of our time.

His/her latest thesis is that “according to biologists…” there is a “credible possibility that small incremental changes could have developed massive increases in biological information in a short time — followed by stasis.”

So, skeech assures us that “biologists” are universally agreed upon this proposition?

How about this and this?

Darwinian evolutionary theory is a boiling, ever-changing, amorphous cloud that is impenetrable and completely immune to critical analytical scrutiny. It was designed that way, for obvious reasons.

It should be noted that the “scientific” consensus in the early 20th century was the steady-state universe theory (that is, the universe is eternal, and has no beginning and no end). Those subscribing to the consensus were wrong (including Albert Einstein), and they put up a big fight until the end, when the evidence became overwhelming.

Continental drift theory was also ridiculed.

Wegener was the first to use the phrase “continental drift” (1912, 1915)… During Wegener’s lifetime, his theory of continental drift was severely attacked by leading geologists, who viewed him as an outsider meddling in their field.

The criticism we always hear from Darwinists is: Outsiders are not permitted to question the dogma, because they don’t understand the subtleties and the “science.”

The essence of Darwinian philosophy, presented as “science,” takes about 15 minutes to learn and understand: Random variation and natural selection explain everything — never mind the details, we’ll make up stories later to explain away the anomalies, contradictions, and improbabilities.

In the meantime, just have faith, and don’t ask any annoying questions.

This is not science, it’s religious indoctrination.

Comments
kairosfocus [283] is correct, I believe, in pointing out that "On the debate on trees and nested hierarchies, a tree [data structure sense] is a form of such an hierarchy." Joseph [284], I'm a physical coward, as I have noted to you before. That's why I'm afraid of you and don't want to meet you in person, despite your generous past offers. On the nested hierarchy issue, I have no stake in debating what is and is not a nested hierarchy with you. I only pointed out that evolution claims a nested hierarchy is to be expected (which you denied). I demonstrated that with a relevant quote. I also pointed out that evolutionary scientists and you use the term in different ways. That seems clear enough. It's just that you think they're all wrong and you're right. Perhaps you're correct. If so, congratulations!David Kellogg
April 11, 2009
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Hi jerry,
One thing that Darwin does predict and is not there is that there will be constant sequence of new species due to the adaptation of something. That’s what Darwin’s theory does predict, one of adaptation of something to changes in the environment. Each new adaptation is a stand alone species
This is incorrect. Each adaptation does not necessarily result in a new species. It can lead to ecological isolation and eventual speciation, given the proper conditions. however. For good examples of this, I suggest Dolph Schluter’s excellent book The Ecology of Adaptive Radiation. One of its strong points, in my opinion, is its emphasis on ecological opportunity. Speciation and diversity will not occur without ecological opportunity. This is because of the well-known ecological principle of competitive exclusion. If ecological conditions remain stable for a long period of time and over a large area, the opportunity for speciation will be less. This, in part, explains Gould and Eldredge’s idea of stasis, and it can even be seen in Darwin’s writings when he discusses natural selection, competition and how these are affected by the “conditions of life” available at the time.
[M]ost [species] can expect to live for millions of years unless something dramatic happens. But nothing in the current suite of species or in the fossil record suggest this has ever happened.
The theory of island biogeography (see MacArthur & Wilson’s classic book on the subject) and Schluter’s book are just two in a very rich literature that present examples and discuss the mechanisms for it. For you to say that nothing in extant or paleo species suggests this is incorrect.
This as we know is what falsifies Darwin.
Incorrect (see above).
In other words the Darwin theory predicts an extremely, extremely bushy tree and not just the occasional clade.
If you remember from reading Darwin, jerry, he says that we do not expect to see a bushy tree in extant species because of extinction along the way (see page 169 of the first edition). And we do not expect the fossil record to reveal every species that ever existed, purely for ecological and geological reasons. However, as Gould and Eldredge point out, when the conditions are right, we can see very bushy trees in the fossil record. If you recall, Gould’s treatment of those land snail fossils shows very fine grained transitions. The Foraminafera are an excellent example of many, fine-grained transitions. I will add another example, that of bears. Bjorn Kurten, in his book The Cave Bear Story writes:
From the early Ursus minimus of 5 million years ago to the late Pleistocene cave bear, there is a perfectly complete evolutionary sequence without any real gaps. The transition is slow and gradual throughout, and it is quite difficult to say where one species ends and the next begins. Where should we draw the boundary between U. minimus and U. etruscus, or between U. savini and U. spelaeus? The history of the cave bear becomes a demonstration of evolution, not as a hypothesis or theory but as a simple fact of record.
So we have examples of exactly what Darwin told us to expect. This notion that nothing in the fossil record suggests this mechanism is at work is, frankly, just plain wrong.
This discussion is revealing. The anti ID people just regurgitate stuff, never discussing the theory for it. Because if they do, then they know they will be called on the theory and they will not like that. It is the game they play. Their sole objective is to get someone in a gotcha or make them frustrated. They constantly ask you to defend something trying to put you back on your heels and never once will they defend anything. It is an interesting technique. If you give them a full explanation they will claim you really didn’t answer it or find another piece of trivia to debate.
Hopefully this will give you something more substantial to consider.Dave Wisker
April 11, 2009
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jerry,
Actually I was making light of your comments because you do not demonstrate any understanding of the processes in evolution while trying to pontificate.
What are you referring to exactly? I admit there is a lot about evolution I don't know anything about, btw, as I'm not a scientist.madsen
April 11, 2009
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Joseph,
Which evolutionary tree? Is there such a tree? I am sure that anyone can make any type of pattern given just the living organisms.
I'm referring to the tree which indicates that humans and chimps share a more recent common ancestor with each other than either does with gorillas. This page shows one: http://tolweb.org/Hominidae/16299 BTW, here's a quote from an editorial by Roger Highfield that ran in the same issue of New Scientist as your quote:
As we celebrate the 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth, we await a third revolution that will see biology changed and strengthened. None of this should give succour to creationists, whose blinkered universe is doubtless already buzzing with the news that "New Scientist has announced Darwin was wrong". Expect to find excerpts ripped out of context and presented as evidence that biologists are deserting the theory of evolution en masse. They are not.
madsen
April 11, 2009
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kairosfocus [283],
FYI: As a point of observation, in the simulation thread, we have DEMONSTRATED implicit latching and quasi-latching, substitution where one letter reverts and another advances in parallel, etc. [cf 234 on.] All, thanks to Atom.
In other words, you have DEMONSTRATED that the Weasel program works without latching at the mutation level. No disrespect to Atom, who seems like a good guy and a good programmer, but that was known since the beginning. The same thing was visible in any of the widely available versions of Weasel. It just wasn't called "latching."David Kellogg
April 11, 2009
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Yes hazel, it is very rude of both Alan and David to make a claim and then to not provide any reasoning for it. But that is par for the course for anti-IDists- spew nonsense and hope that no one knows any better.Joseph
April 11, 2009
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Call for the moderator - I sense a little excessive rudeness here! :)hazel
April 11, 2009
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And David, Your failure to respond is because you cannot. IOW you have nothing to respond with. All you can do is run your mouth and cast bald accusations my way.Joseph
April 11, 2009
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"I thought that perhaps you were making light of kairofocus’ 1000-word essays on “quasi-latching”." Actually I was making light of your comments because you do not demonstrate any understanding of the processes in evolution while trying to pontificate. And by the way kairofocus's comments make more sense than the others on the Weasel threads. Yes, they are too long but at least they are not Alice in Wonderland like the those of the others. An unwanted puppy is an American thing. So I assume you are not an American. It was a double entendre because it illustrated your lack of knowledge of the evolutionary processes but represents a hardship for those who had to deal with it in more ways than one. So maybe it was a triple entendre.jerry
April 11, 2009
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kairofocus:
On the debate on trees and nested hierarchies, a tree [data structure sense] is a form of such an hierarchy.
How so?Joseph
April 11, 2009
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Masden 278: FYI: As a point of observation, in the simulation thread, we have DEMONSTRATED implicit latching and quasi-latching, substitution where one letter reverts and another advances in parallel, etc. [cf 234 on.] All, thanks to Atom. Just thought you would like to know. On the debate on trees and nested hierarchies, a tree [data structure sense] is a form of such an hierarchy. The tree of life by Darwin was meant to illustrate branching by fine gradations from one generation to the next, leading to increasing, but graded diversification of lifeforms from an original simple form, through gentle hill climbing through RV + NS etc. (I gather that the tree of life is reportedly the only diagram in the original edn of Origin.] It seems the idea was that the Linnean type taxonomy was to be explained as being based on the root and branch process that evolved step by step, from simple to complex, through variations and natural selection with oodlezillions of intermediates. [The persistent absence of such from the "almost unmanageably rich" fossil record over 150+ years should tell us something! Darwin's hope that the many, many then missing links he expected to have existed, would be found, has not materialised.] But, too, the simplest credible cellular life is not at all simple [hence why Weasel 1986 and kin down to today are so misleading], the Cambrian revo shows massive change at the highest level first [phyla, sub phyla], and there is now no consensus across the many contradicting "trees." So, we see empirical failure to match and predict the actual record. And, the hoped for oodles of links have not turned up in the fossils. Capping off, the many techniques for gettign to such a tree -- contra Shermer's confident declarations -- give materially divergent and conflicting results. Commonality of design features seems a much better explanation to me. (Includign of Berra's blunder and that strange way cars have almost-hierarchical features but with cut-acrosses in the strangest places once you lift the hood as you Americans call it. (Bonnet is a nicer word . . . )] GEM of TKI PS: Sometimes, too, detailed point by point remarks are needed when there are entrenched errors.kairosfocus
April 11, 2009
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Joseph, I can't speak for Alan, but you can take my failure to respond as confirmation that I consider you incapable of being reasoned with.David Kellogg
April 11, 2009
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Alan Fox and David Kellogg, I will take your failure to respond with a valid example of a nested hierarchy which does not require additive characteristics that you cannot produce one. IOW your silence on the matter demonstrates you have lost the debate. Too bad neither of you is man enough to admit it.Joseph
April 11, 2009
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Graham Lawton, "Why Darwin was wrong about the tree of life," New Scientist (January 21, 2009):
“For a long time the holy grail was to build a tree of life,” says Eric Bapteste, an evolutionary biologist at the Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, France. A few years ago it looked as though the grail was within reach. But today the project lies in tatters, torn to pieces by an onslaught of negative evidence. Many biologists now argue that the tree concept is obsolete and needs to be discarded. “We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality,” says Bapteste. That bombshell has even persuaded some that our fundamental view of biology needs to change.
and
The problems began in the early 1990s when it became possible to sequence actual bacterial and archaeal genes rather than just RNA. Everybody expected these DNA sequences to confirm the RNA tree, and sometimes they did but, crucially, sometimes they did not. RNA, for example, might suggest that species A was more closely related to species B than species C, but a tree made from DNA would suggest the reverse.
and
Syvanen recently compared 2000 genes that are common to humans, frogs, sea squirts, sea urchins, fruit flies and nematodes. In theory, he should have been able to use the gene sequences to construct an evolutionary tree showing the relationships between the six animals. He failed. The problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories. This was especially true of sea-squirt genes. Conventionally, sea squirts—also known as tunicates—are lumped together with frogs, humans and other vertebrates in the phylum Chordata, but the genes were sending mixed signals. Some genes did indeed cluster within the chordates, but others indicated that tunicates should be placed with sea urchins, which aren't chordates. “Roughly 50 per cent of its genes have one evolutionary history and 50 per cent another,” Syvanen says
W. Ford Doolittle, "Phylogenetic Classification and the Universal Tree," Science, Vol. 284:2124-2128 (June 25, 1999):
Molecular phylogenists will have failed to find the ‘true tree,’ not because their methods are inadequate or because they have chosen the wrong genes, but because the history of life cannot properly be represented as a tree.”
Joseph
April 11, 2009
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madesen:
Do you accept then that based on the hierarchy of characteristics, the species at the tips of the branches can (sometimes—if the data is sufficient) be placed on an evolutionary tree?
Which evolutionary tree? Is there such a tree? I am sure that anyone can make any type of pattern given just the living organisms.Joseph
April 11, 2009
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jerry,
Madsen did not have a clue when I asked him about the chihuahua and the wolf and the unwanted puppy. There is no hierarchy here because they are all one big family and related so being related has nothing to do with a hierarchy since there isn’t one and he did not see it.
Well, your questions were pretty obscure. Proper and improper hierarchies? I thought that perhaps you were making light of kairofocus' 1000-word essays on "quasi-latching". And "unwanted puppy"? I still don't know what that means.madsen
April 10, 2009
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I would say that Abel knows even less of Jesus scholarship than he does of information theory, if I thought it were possible. This is not an appropriate forum for a debate of ancient accounts of the life and teachings of Jesus. And as for the fabulous muddle that Abel paid to have published, I do wish to express my thanks for the reference list. I did not include the work of Trevors and Abel in my published critique of ID, for the simple reason that I wanted to address with scholarly decorum the more coherent arguments for ID, and not fall into mockery of ignorant claims.Sal Gal
April 10, 2009
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Joseph, As you know the discussion of evolution is usually one of apples and oranges. And this nested hierarchies one is no different. Darwin had two theories though his supporters do not like to discuss this claiming there is only one. There is the micro evolution one and there is the macro evolution. Both of Darwin's theory as espoused here by the anti ID people have a direction. One has a predicted one and one does not have a predicted direction. The one that does not predict a direction also predicts an increase in complexity over time while the other one predicts less complexity. I tried to point this out above but no one picked it up or they didn't know how to deal with it. Unless we are careful and discuss each one separately there is the inevitable confusion. The one that predicts direction may have nested hierarchies but they are trivial. It is micro evolution. Madsen did not have a clue when I asked him about the chihuahua and the wolf and the unwanted puppy. There is no hierarchy here because they are all one big family and related so being related has nothing to do with a hierarchy since there isn't one and he did not see it. In addition there may be nested hierarchies due to micro evolution but they are trivial ones as the sub levels have smaller gene pools and often can not inter breed. It is no big deal. If they have different characteristics it is because they arose just like dog breeding. None of the characteristics are new but are contained within the gene pool. It is evolution but not the one they want. It is the evolution that ID is completely in sync with. For Darwin's other theory, macro evolution, it essentially does not exist as there is no evidence to support it. But it too predicts there will be a direction, just unknown. It is supposedly an upward theory due to small adaptations but there is no evidence that it ever happened. All the evidence for the adaptive theory is that is a downward micro evolution one and not upward or macro evolution. Maybe there was an occasional instance but none have been documented, only speculated. Here they do postulate novel characteristics new to the gene pool but in general there is no evidence it ever happened. So they claim nested hierarchies and point to the trivial ones from micro evolution when what they really want are the ones that must come from some form of macro evolution. So their theory predicts nested hierarchies but they only exist through micro evolution and that is trivial and not what they want. Which is why evolutionary biology has essentially abandoned Darwin and is looking in other directions for another explanation to explain substantial change. This discussion is revealing. The anti ID people just regurgitate stuff, never discussing the theory for it. Because if they do, then they know they will be called on the theory and they will not like that. It is the game they play. Their sole objective is to get someone in a gotcha or make them frustrated. They constantly ask you to defend something trying to put you back on your heels and never once will they defend anything. It is an interesting technique. If you give them a full explanation they will claim you really didn't answer it or find another piece of trivia to debate. One thing that Darwin does predict and is not there is that there will be constant sequence of new species due to the adaptation of something. That's what Darwin's theory does predict, one of adaptation of something to changes in the environment. Each new adaptation is a stand alone species and most can expect to live for millions of years unless something dramatic happens. But nothing in the current suite of species or in the fossil record suggest this has ever happened. This as we know is what falsifies Darwin. In other words the Darwin theory predicts an extremely, extremely bushy tree and not just the occasional clade. But the tree or hierarchy that the theory predicts is not there. So far none of them have discussed that. I wonder why.jerry
April 10, 2009
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Joseph, I was going to try and explain my analogy to the Russian dolls further, but let me set that aside for a moment, and focus on this part of your post:
It is only when one looks at the tips of the tree stems can a nested hierarchy be formed and then only if the characteristics allow for it. And if you want to know what it has to do witrh then ask Denton.
Do you accept then that based on the hierarchy of characteristics, the species at the tips of the branches can (sometimes---if the data is sufficient) be placed on an evolutionary tree?madsen
April 10, 2009
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madsen:
My tree example is so similar to your Russian doll example, I don’t see how you could miss the similarity.
It isn't similar so that is whgy I don't see the similarity. Can you take a stem and fit in into a branch? No. Can you take the branches and fit them into the trunk? No. In 1998 the alleged tree of life was still standing. Today, thanks to research, we know better. And trees with their branches that represent LINEAGES, do not form nested hierarchies. It is only when one looks at the tips of the tree stems can a nested hierarchy be formed and then only if the characteristics allow for it. And if you want to know what it has to do witrh then ask Denton. As I said in 2004 he stood by his claims in "Evolution"- which means that the MET does not/ should not expect a nested hierarchy.Joseph
April 10, 2009
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jerry, The point about NH is that David Kellogg provided a site that says NH is expected from evolution. IOW NH is a prediction of the theory. However evolution does not have a direction and nested hierarchies demand a direction. IOW the people making the "prediction" do not appear to understand the concepts- evolution nor nested hierarchy. I am just trying to get that through to them and they don't seem to able to comprehend what I am saying.Joseph
April 10, 2009
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Joseph,
Trees do NOT have a nested hierarchy structure.
My tree example is so similar to your Russian doll example, I don't see how you could miss the similarity. In fact, if you allow that these dolls can contain either 1 or 2 dolls at the next lower level, the analogy is almost exact.
You mean the trees that don’t exist?
Heh, yes, the "perfect evolutionary trees" that Denton refers to in Nature's Destiny. He even has an entire chapter in that book entitled "The Tree of Life". It begins with an extended quote from Darwin.
I did- YOU refuse to understand it.
Not exactly---you said "One thing is for sure- it has NOTHING to do with nested hierarchies". I want to know what it does have to do with.madsen
April 10, 2009
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This discussion on nested hierarchies is just like the discussion on the Weasel. It is about trivial irrelevant nonsense. People go on and on and on and it has nothing to do with anything except to see if we can catch someone is a meaningless non sequitur. If you bring up something relevant it gets ignored. But hey folks this is what anti ID people do around here. They cannot deal with what is relevant.jerry
April 10, 2009
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madesn, The bottom line is Denton thoroughly refuted the premise pertaining to the MET and nested hierarchies. In 2004 he said the critiques in "Evolution" are still good. So exactly what is YOUR problem?Joseph
April 10, 2009
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And after you construct a nested hierarchy of characteristics, such as properties of gene clusters, then you can use it to try to construct an evolutionary tree, which also has a natural nested hierarchy structure.
Trees do NOT have a nested hierarchy structure.
Surely you understand that a major goal of looking at characteristics is to reconstruct evolutionary trees.
You mean the trees that don't exist?
If you are sure that’s the case, you should be able to explain his actual reasoning.
I did- YOU refuse to understand it. Again your problems are not mine. Transitionals are a mix of characteristics which would blur the lines of distinction. Common descent leads to a LINEAGE. A lineage is never confused with a nested hierarchy by people who know the difference. Why do you refuse to understand these points?Joseph
April 10, 2009
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Alan Fox, One of your links did not work. the other links to Zachriel who I have proven doesn't understand nested hierarchy. Heck Zachriel tried to tell me that a patrilineage is a paternal family tree. And when I gave his exampl,e of a nested hierarchy to an expert that expert said it wasn't a nested hierarchy. Then Zachriel became more belligerent and finally went away. IOW if you are counting on Zachriel then you have already lost. I am still waiting for YOU to support YOUR claim.Joseph
April 10, 2009
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Joseph,
LoL!!!! Nest5ed hierarchies are built by characteristics not relatedness.
And after you construct a nested hierarchy of characteristics, such as properties of gene clusters, then you can use it to try to construct an evolutionary tree, which also has a natural nested hierarchy structure. Surely you understand that a major goal of looking at characteristics is to reconstruct evolutionary trees.
One thing is for sure- it has NOTHING to do with nested hierarchies.
If you are sure that's the case, you should be able to explain his actual reasoning. Why does Denton think that chimps and humans are more closely related to each other than each is to gorillas? Remember, he's only using hemoglobin gene clusters to make this determination.madsen
April 10, 2009
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jerry
A couple things: We have something that could be a proper and an improper nested hierarchy. Second, A chihuahua and a wolf can mate. Because there wouldn’t be a proper nest, would this puppy be “unwanted puppy?”
Unwanted by whom? All I'm saying is that if the evolutionary "tree" has a cycle in it, then the particular nested hierarchy I described doesn't work.madsen
April 10, 2009
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Here are some threads on another blog where nested hierarchies are discussed.Alan Fox
April 10, 2009
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Here is one of several threads on your own blog where you have a dialogue of the deaf with various commenters. I doubt I can do any better, Joe. I notice you closed comments on that thread.Alan Fox
April 10, 2009
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