Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Outsider Meddling — Skeptics Need Not Apply (or, Just Have Faith)

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Someone by the name of skeech is cluttering up UD with impervious sophistry and wasting a lot of our time.

His/her latest thesis is that “according to biologists…” there is a “credible possibility that small incremental changes could have developed massive increases in biological information in a short time — followed by stasis.”

So, skeech assures us that “biologists” are universally agreed upon this proposition?

How about this and this?

Darwinian evolutionary theory is a boiling, ever-changing, amorphous cloud that is impenetrable and completely immune to critical analytical scrutiny. It was designed that way, for obvious reasons.

It should be noted that the “scientific” consensus in the early 20th century was the steady-state universe theory (that is, the universe is eternal, and has no beginning and no end). Those subscribing to the consensus were wrong (including Albert Einstein), and they put up a big fight until the end, when the evidence became overwhelming.

Continental drift theory was also ridiculed.

Wegener was the first to use the phrase “continental drift” (1912, 1915)… During Wegener’s lifetime, his theory of continental drift was severely attacked by leading geologists, who viewed him as an outsider meddling in their field.

The criticism we always hear from Darwinists is: Outsiders are not permitted to question the dogma, because they don’t understand the subtleties and the “science.”

The essence of Darwinian philosophy, presented as “science,” takes about 15 minutes to learn and understand: Random variation and natural selection explain everything — never mind the details, we’ll make up stories later to explain away the anomalies, contradictions, and improbabilities.

In the meantime, just have faith, and don’t ask any annoying questions.

This is not science, it’s religious indoctrination.

Comments
At least now you should understand the moderation policy here.
The current policy? Whilst imperfect, I would allow that it is an improvement on previous policies.Alan Fox
April 10, 2009
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David Kellogg and Alan Fox, Why is it that neither one of you can support your claim by providing an example of a nested hierarchy tat does not require additive characteristics? Are we to infer that you are both intellectual cowards because you make claims without ever supporting them? At least now you should understand the moderation policy here.Joseph
April 10, 2009
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The point is if you have a mix of characteristics, which is what is to be expected moving aling a branch or stem, then THAT violates the nested hierarchy.
I’ve already said that the nested hierarchy I mentioned (the set of clades in a tree) is not defined in terms of characteristics, but by relatedness.- madsen
LoL!!!! Nest5ed hierarchies are built by characteristics not relatedness. There is no way to tell the relationship without already asuming it.
Let’s try this: If you don’t believe he accepts that common descent leads to nested hierarchies, tell me how he reasoned that by looking at gene clusters, one can deduce that the relationship:
Relationships do NOT lead to nested hierarchies. They can lead to a lineage/ sequence. That you can't understand that just further exposes your agenda.
In particular, why does he think that chimps and humans are more closely related to each other than either is related to gorillas?
One thing is for sure- it has NOTHING to do with nested hierarchies. According to Denton his critique of the MET laid down in "Evolution" is still solid- ie not refuted. In "Evolution" he provides a thorough refutation of the claim that the MET predicts/ expects a nested hierarchy. That you have refued to understand that demonstrates you have a serious issue and need help. 1- Nested Hierarchies require distinct categories. 2- Given the exitence of transitional forms those distinct categories break down. What part of that don't you understand?Joseph
April 10, 2009
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3- It is- which you just confirmed- exactly what I have already stated- a prediction based on common descent given that land animals evolved from fish
Does this suggest you’re cool with common descent now?
Yes, in a limited sense. Ya see there still isn't any evidence that the changes required for universal common descent are even possible via the proposed mechanisms. There isn't any way to test the premise.
It fulfills a prediction of common descent.
It also fulfills the prediction of variations within a kind. IOW it is NOT an exclusive prediction for UCD.Joseph
April 10, 2009
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Paul (@234), Another thing to consider is that the origin of vascular plants (not the origin of land plants-- that is believed to be the bryophytes-- had not been solidly established when Gosh and Bose did their work. At that time the earliest fossils had been found in the Silurian, at least in large numbers. It was also believed that the environment most conducive for vascular plants (well-established soil, for instance) was in the Silurian as well. But I recall reading a paper discussing evidence suggesting that the right kind of soil may have existed long before that, possibly even in the Cambrian. So, the appearance of vascular plants in the Cambrian is not necessarily problematic. However, having them showing up in the PreCambrian, where there is no evidence at all for the right kind of environment, and no fossils of bryophytes, would be problematic. As of today, the consensus is still for a Silurian appearance of vascular plants. Does that help?Dave Wisker
April 10, 2009
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ally = allay Must remember to use ctrl + (+)Alan Fox
April 10, 2009
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234 Paul Giem 04/09/2009 2:05 am Alan Fox (#206) and Dave Wisker (210), The theory of evolution is supposed to be falsifiable according to both of you. What do you do with plants in the Precambrian? (look about halfway down the article, in the paragraph starting “In the mid- 1940’s”)
My first instinct would be to check the primary literature. The following:
In 1969 they again published a paper on the spores of vascular plants obtained from nine samples of Cambrain rocks of North America, further reiterating the existence of vascular plants in the Cambrian.
suggests a paper exists. If it demonstrates that land plants were around in the Cambrian, I am surprised it is not a hot topic. I am further surprised that no follow up work has been done to attempt to repeat Gosh's work. Do you have a link to the primary source to help ally the growing suspicion that you have thrown me a red herring?Alan Fox
April 10, 2009
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"If two distantly related dogs produced an offspring, then the “clade” determined by this puppy wouldn’t nest properly." A couple things: We have something that could be a proper and an improper nested hierarchy. Second, A chihuahua and a wolf can mate. Because there wouldn't be a proper nest, would this puppy be "unwanted puppy?"jerry
April 10, 2009
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Hi Paul:
Alan Fox (#206) and Dave Wisker (210), The theory of evolution is supposed to be falsifiable according to both of you. What do you do with plants in the Precambrian? (look about halfway down the article, in the paragraph starting “In the mid- 1940’s”)
Well, first of all, I'd check to see what the current thinking of the age of the Salt Range rocks are. I think you'll find the consensus is they are late Cambrian, not PreCambrian. Then I'd consider the fossils themselves. As Stewart and Rothwell write:
Thick-walled spores showing trilete markings and other ornamentations have been reported from the Cambrian rocks of India (Ghosh & Bose, 1949-50) and Russia (Naumova, 1949). The initial interpretation suggested that these were meiospores of primitive vascular plants. If proven, this would place their oldest known remains in the lower Cambrian, much earlier in geologic time than one might expect. As is often the case with finds of this kind, a healthy skepticism developed. There is always the possibility of contamination, and we must remember that primitive vascular plants are not the only plants that form thick-walled meiospores with trilete markings. After a detailed study of meiospore types produced by bryophytes, Knox (1939) concluded, “Except where fossil spores are found in organic union with recognizable parent material, however, there can be no certainty as to their relationships”. This conclusion applies equally to vascular plants.
(Stewart WN & GW Rothwell (1993). Paleobotany and the Evolution of Plants 2nd ed. Cambridge University Press, p. 84-85) As for the contamination issue, it was found that Sahni’s discoveries were most likely contamination, because drill cores (which do not show contamination) in the same area only revealed plant fossils consistent with Cambrian rocks throughout India and the world. As Bose wrote in 1956:
Spores and other plant remains in drill cores of the Punjab saline series from the Dhariala well no. 1 in the Salt Range, west Pakistan, resemble those recorded from rocks of undisputed Cambrian age elsewhere in India and in the world. The age of the saline series is therefore Cambrian, rather than Tertiary as advocated by some
Bose A (1956). Microflora and age of Punjab Saline Series from Dhariala Well No. 1, Salt Range, West Pakistan. Proc. Nat. Inst. Sci. India 22 : 77-82Dave Wisker
April 9, 2009
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jerry, I suppose you can construct a nested hierarchy starting with any set, but I think using clades wouldn't make sense if you are working below the species level. If two distantly related dogs produced an offspring, then the "clade" determined by this puppy wouldn't nest properly.madsen
April 9, 2009
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"I’ve already said that the nested hierarchy I mentioned (the set of clades in a tree) is not defined in terms of characteristics, but by relatedness." Does this mean that the Sopranos are an example of a nested hierarchy? The Irish? Jews? Japanese? Suppose you take a family of mammals and you can prove all are descendant from a common gene pool by micro evolution, is that a nested hierarchy? Remember if they are descended by micro evolution this is no different than what artificial selection might provide. So that leads to the question: Are dog breeds a nested hierarchy?jerry
April 9, 2009
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"Does this suggest you’re cool with common descent now? It fulfills a prediction of common descent." Some random facts Common descent says nothing about mechanism. Most of the evidence to support common descent is common ancestry. Most if not all ID is completely consistent with common ancestry for much of life. There could have been more than one origin of life according to some evolutionary biologists so where does common descent come from if this is true. Front loading predicts common descent. If an intelligence alters an organism so that its offspring are different genetically somewhat is that common descent? For example, gmo's. What about an Indian who separates out the various grains of a plant and then scatters only a certain portion of those grains, and then repeats the process. Is that common descent? Is dog breeding common descent? Probably the only reason we discuss common descent is that Darwin made a big thing about it and it seems to be essential to the anti ID ideology. Adaptive gradualism is gone as a significant factor in evolution, natural selection is gone as a significant factor in evolution, there is no hard proof that common descent actually happened through naturalistic means so what does the old boy have left that is relevant. The answer: A lot of die hards who will never quit because if they do their whole world view will fall apart. Witness the inanity we get on this site from the anti ID people. The constant search for a gotcha mostly on meaningless stuff, sniping from afar on trivia, distracting when the discussion is going the wrong way, etc. You would think they would be embarrassed but that does not seem to be an evolutionary trait they inherited.jerry
April 9, 2009
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Joseph,
The point is if you have a mix of characteristics, which is what is to be expected moving aling a branch or stem, then THAT violates the nested hierarchy.
I've already said that the nested hierarchy I mentioned (the set of clades in a tree) is not defined in terms of characteristics, but by relatedness. It's trivial to see that it satisfies the definition you gave, just as the Russian doll does. I don't get the claim of quote mining; while I don't think your definition is very precise, I'm not claiming it's wrong. Let's try this: If you don't believe he accepts that common descent leads to nested hierarchies, tell me how he reasoned that by looking at gene clusters, one can deduce that the relationship:
(gorilla+(human+(chimp+bonobo)))
is valid. In particular, why does he think that chimps and humans are more closely related to each other than either is related to gorillas?madsen
April 9, 2009
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Joseph, with regard to this:
3- It is- which you just confirmed- exactly what I have already stated- a prediction based on common descent given that land animals evolved from fish
Does this suggest you're cool with common descent now? It fulfills a prediction of common descent.David Kellogg
April 9, 2009
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Joseph @248
It is NOT a prediction based on random variation and it is NOT a prediction based on natural selection.
And yet, it is still a prediction based on modern evolutionary theory. Your claim that MET doesn't make predictions is refuted. The rest of your post is the tired old creationist canard of "It's still a fish." Although some will make the claim "It's still a tetrapod." Homilies about leading horses to water come to mind. And you still haven't addressed the hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed papers that cover the results of testing the predictions of MET. The bottom line is that you claimed that MET doesn't make predictions. Tiktaalik proves you wrong. The primary literature proves you wrong. You can have the intellectual integrity to admit that . . . or not. What's your choice? JJJayM
April 9, 2009
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It is NOT a prediction based on random variation and it is NOT a prediction based on natural selection.
You have a very limited view and understanding of modern evolutionary theory.
Could be. After all I learned about it by taking college biology courses- zoology and marine biology- and by reading many, many scientific articles, publications and books written by the top evolutionary biologists. IOW I will bet I know more about biology and evolutionary theory than you do. So what, exactly, is tiki a “prediction” of?
If you read the page I’ve repeatedly referenced you would know that Tiktaalik is a transitional form between fish and tetrapods predicted to exist based on previously discovered fish and tetrapod fossils dated between 390-380 mya and 363 mya respectively. Since evolutionary theory maintains that change occurs incrementally, the transitional form was predicted to be found in sediments dated between those ages.
Umm I read the pages and the original article when it came out. 1- It is NOT a prediction of natural selection 2- It is NOT a prediction of random variation 3- It is- which you just confirmed- exactly what I have already stated- a prediction based on common descent given that land animals evolved from fish. IOW it is NOT a prediction based on any mechanism which means it is a BS "prediction". As I said the Bible says that the universe had a beginning. Science agrees. The geocentric position also made correct predictions.
That’s exactly where Tiktaalik was found. Further, Tiktaalik’s characteristics are transitional between fish and tetrapods. Go to the site for more details.
It is a fish with characteristics that are different from other fish. There isn't any genetic evidence that would demonstrate that a fish fin without bones can evolve a fin with bones. That is hurdle number one- lack of genetic evidence that demonstrates such a transition is even possible. Ya see when you start going from water to land it takes quite a bit of change. If that requires new genes, well new genes require new binding sites. And that has been demonstrated to be beyond the edge of evolution.
The bottom line is that your claim that modern evolutionary theory does not make predictions is blatantly incorrect.
If you cannot provide a prediction based on the proposed mechanisms then you haven't provided a prediction for the theory. You have a very limited understanding of science...
Joseph
April 9, 2009
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The point is if you have a mix of characteristics, which is what is to be expected moving aling a branch or stem, then THAT violates the nested hierarchy. Ya see nested hierarchies REQUIRE distinct categories. And distinct categories are not to be found amongst the transitional forms. What part of that don’t you understand?
That requirement does not appear in the definition on your blog, however.
Quote-mining isn't a good way to defend your position. Especially when dealing with the person you are quote-mining. Ya see that definition you mined was set up by long list of discussions. Perhaps you should stick to the AUTHORITY I linked to if you are going to use a definition of NH.
The whole point is that Denton accepts that the nested hierarchy of characteristics of certain gene clusters determines a parallel nested hierarchy of relatedness in primates.
That is NOT evinced by the quote you provided. He said NOTHING about nested hierarchy. Not in that quote anyway. I will have to get the book, but it is obvious he does NOT accept that the MET predicted it nor did the accepted processes give rise to it.
The Denton quote you gave from 2004 is interesting, and would seem to undermine the contention that he revised his views between 1986 and 1998.
He said he revised his views. It just was not how you were expecting.
OTOH, I’m still not sure how you can square the actual quotes I cited.
The quote said something about a tree. You are the one who thinks a tree equals a nested hierarchy. Denton had made it clear it does not and should not.
For now at least, I’ll withdraw my claim that he changed his mind.
He did change his mind. "Nature's Destiny" is a departure from his views of a mechanistic- superwatch model. He accepts a view of front loading.
Regarding the tree itself, I’m aware that it’s somewhat weblike, at least near the base.
It is pretty much dispensed with.
Nevertheless, apparently Denton believes (or believed in 1998) that the tree model is reasonably accurate, at least in this section containing primates.
And you are still confusing a tree with a nested hierarchy. It is not. Denton had made his views clear on that and nothing you have posted has demonstrated his position on that has changed. OTOH I have provided a DIRECT QUOTE from 2004 saying his critique of the MET in "Evolution" is convincing. IOW he isn't backing off on his stance on nested hierarchy at all.
“While hierarchic schemes correspond beautifully with the typological model of nature, the relationship between evolution and hierarchical systems is curiously ambiguous. Ever since 1859 it has been traditional for evolutionary biologists to claim that the hierarchic pattern of nature provides support for the idea of organics evolution. Yet, direct evidence for evolution only resides in the existence of unambiguous sequential arrangements, and these are never present in ordered hierarchic schemes.”- Denton page 131 of “Evolution: A Theory in Crisis”
Now what?Joseph
April 9, 2009
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Joseph,
The point is if you have a mix of characteristics, which is what is to be expected moving aling a branch or stem, then THAT violates the nested hierarchy. Ya see nested hierarchies REQUIRE distinct categories. And distinct categories are not to be found amongst the transitional forms. What part of that don’t you understand?
That requirement does not appear in the definition on your blog, however. You phrased it in terms of abstract sets. You even gave the example of Russian dolls as an instance of a nested hierarcy, without discussing any of the dolls' characteristics. The example I gave, organizing the tree into a hierarchy of clades, satisifies your definition. It's organized by relatedness, not by characteristics. The whole point is that Denton accepts that the nested hierarchy of characteristics of certain gene clusters determines a parallel nested hierarchy of relatedness in primates. I understand that this is not always a precise correspondence, but Denton agrees that it is good enough in this case. The Denton quote you gave from 2004 is interesting, and would seem to undermine the contention that he revised his views between 1986 and 1998. OTOH, I'm still not sure how you can square the actual quotes I cited. For now at least, I'll withdraw my claim that he changed his mind. Regarding the tree itself, I'm aware that it's somewhat weblike, at least near the base. Nevertheless, apparently Denton believes (or believed in 1998) that the tree model is reasonably accurate, at least in this section containing primates.madsen
April 9, 2009
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Are we arguing over whether the changes took place in small steps or larger steps. The Darwinian process states that there are small gradual changes along the way from one species to another (adaptation model.) The Gouldian model (exaptation model) and the front loading model of evolution argue that there will not be gradual changes but large changes along the way. Both of these models say there can be small changes over time due to micro evolution but the changes will be trivial. Sort of a downward process of change mixed in with a major upward thrust as species lose information through selection and drift processes after a saltation like event occurs with the origin of new functional information. Other ID models suggest that there will also be periods of rapid change as gene pools are seeded by an intelligence at some point in time but then there will be the inevitable downward thrust of loss of information as species isolate and the environment forces a loss in information. But these downward progression of loss of information may lead to some very interesting morphological characteristics. All posit different views as to what changes will look like over time. Darwin's continued upward slow progression does not seem to fit the evidence either in the fossil record or in the current world. There does not seem to be any examples of small adaptive change leading to anything that is novel, complex and functional. Which is why there is a crisis with parts of the Darwinian paradigm and the constant search in recent years for others processes that aren't gradual. All these models lead to different interpretations of what to expect in the fossil record and the current record. For example, what types of characteristics will be found at the different points. There are different types of characteristics that could appear. Those that are within the gene pool and those which are not. For example, the first is best exemplified by dog breeding and the various shapes, color combinations, sizes, behavioral tendencies that can be developed by breeding. All these characteristics are not in the current morphology of the wild species but are actually within the gene pool of the wild species. Such examples can come out over time and represent trivial change as far as the evolutionary debate is concerned. What the debate is about is the origin of unique characteristics not found in the gene pool and which arise over time. What is the cause of these characteristics. For example, bat echolocation. Is it the result of small changes over time in the adaptation of the bat variants that led to this as Darwinian theory demands, or is it the sudden exaptation of a non coding section of the genome as the Gouldian's hypothesize, or is it the part of the original genome from the origin of life as various ID front loading people propose, or is it a result of some form of seeding by an intelligent agent after life began. So when we talk of characteristics we have to separate out just what is meant and which model fits the empirical data best. Also do not bring up something like Tiktaalik. It fits all the models and if anything falsifies the Darwinian one since it is another example of an isolated fossil and not part of a steady progression. There may be more findings of similar fossils in the future which may be more supportive of the Darwinian process but at present it is not an example of Darwinian evolution. As part of this, readers might want to look at John Davison's essay entitled "The Blind Alley" which is linked to under his works on this site. John's thesis is that evolution has stopped. If true, why"jerry
April 9, 2009
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And BTW, "evolution" does NOT have a direction. That means we shouldn't even expect to see a tree nor a tree-like pattern. Perhaps an asterisk would better desribe the pattern that we may see from evolutionary processes. It would asterisks all around connecting more asterisks.Joseph
April 9, 2009
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And BTW the alleged tree you speak of no longer exists. That you refuse to understand that really exposes your agenda.Joseph
April 9, 2009
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madsen:
While it is true that the characteristics of the organism change as you move along a stem, that does not violate the definition of a nested hierarchy.
The point is if you have a mix of characteristics, which is what is to be expected moving aling a branch or stem, then THAT violates the nested hierarchy. Ya see nested hierarchies REQUIRE distinct categories. And distinct categories are not to be found amongst the transitional forms. What part of that don't you understand? And why is it that you refuse to understand that Denton did NOT change his mind about the critiques he made in "Evolution"?Joseph
April 9, 2009
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Joseph,
That is false for thne reason provided- every point along the trunk and branches of a tree (BTW the alleged tree of life has been torn down) represents a transitional organism with a mix of characteristics.
While it is true that the characteristics of the organism change as you move along a stem, that does not violate the definition of a nested hierarchy. In fact I just noticed on your blog that you gave this definition:
A nested hierarchy is nothing more than a well defined(super) set which contains and consists of other specified (sub)sets.
Imagine we have an evolutionary tree drawn with the root pointing upwards and the tips of the branches on the bottom. This drawing, thought of as a set of points, is our universal set. Now pick any point on the diagram and take that point and all points "below" it (this subset represents a particular organism with all its descendants). The set of all such subsets of the original tree nest in the obvious way.madsen
April 9, 2009
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And more nail in your littel coffin:
During the course of this journey I wrote two books: Evolution: A Theory in Crisis and Nature's Destiny. Evolution was written while I still adhered to the superwatch model of nature. Despite this, I still believe it represents one of the most convincing critiques of the assumption that the organic world is the continuum that classical Darwinism demands. (bold added)
Sorry, you lose...Joseph
April 9, 2009
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madsen, In the essay which explains his intellectual journey he talks about both books. "Evolution" was just a book of criticisms- only two chapters 13 & 14 argue that "complex adaptations are beyond the reach of chance". "Nature's Destiny" according to Denton, "was intended to be a comprehensive and scholarly update and extension of Fitness. I also wanted to spoeculate on the possibility that the course of evolution may have been direceted in some way." Again nothing in this essay states that what he wrote in "Evolution" is incorrect and replaced by what he now wrote with the exception of the "superwatch" model- a slight change in philosophy which is provided above.Joseph
April 9, 2009
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madsen- Now what he would have to do in order for your argument to have any merit is to come right out and disown everything he said along with an explanation.
But he’s already done that by publishing his updated views in book form.
There isn't anything in that updated book which overturns what he said in "Evolution"- only your mistaken inferences. Deal with it.Joseph
April 9, 2009
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And David: Another challenge to those who disagree with the premise that nested hierarchies require additive characteristics: Produce a nested hierarchy that doesn’t require additive characteristics. (cue “Final Jeopardy” music…) Thank you for continuing to prove that you can't support your nonsensical claims.Joseph
April 9, 2009
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David Kellogg:
The quote from the 2004 essay reads to me like a simplistic cartoon version of Richard Lewontin.
Coming from an English teacher that means what, exactly?
Lewontin (whose scientific achievements dwarf those of Denton) is of course a well-known supporter of evolution and one of the leading evolutionary geneticists in the world.
So what? Can he refute what Denton said? No. Can he demonstrate that genetic accidents can acumulate in such a way as to give rise to the diversity of life starting from some unknown population(s) of single-celled organisms? No. So what is your point David?Joseph
April 9, 2009
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madsen:
An evolutionary tree is an explicit example of a nested hierarchy.
That is false for thne reason provided- every point along the trunk and branches of a tree (BTW the alleged tree of life has been torn down) represents a transitional organism with a mix of characteristics. That you refuse to understand that basic fact says quite a bit about your agenda. And it also tells me you don't understand nested hierarchy. That is not my problem. Ya see if intermediates are found they would VIOLOATE the distinct categories already laid down for the current nested hierarchy. That is what the quotes you posted tell me. Denton's 2004 essay is titled: An Anti-Darwinian Intellectual Journey- Biological Order as an Inherent Property of Matter In this essay he describes his journey from a Christian upbringing, through med school, through the his writing of "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis", through the writing of "Nature's Destiny" and then through to 2004. The ONLY chage in his PoV from "Evolution" to "Nature" is cleasrly stated in this essay:
Contemplating the evidence presented by Henderson in this great classic (Fitness of the Environment) led me to write <Nature's Destiny and to begin to change my basic philosophy of nature from the "superwatch" adaptational model to a more naturalistic and "lawful" conception of the organic world.
That is it. He NEVER says that what he wrote in "Evolution" is wrong. All he says was that he had a change in philosophy. And what he meant by the quote was that the DNA sequence is not relevant as it does NOT determine the final product. Therefor any alleged relationshipsJoseph
April 9, 2009
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Alan Fox (#206) and Dave Wisker (210), The theory of evolution is supposed to be falsifiable according to both of you. What do you do with plants in the Precambrian? (look about halfway down the article, in the paragraph starting "In the mid- 1940's")Paul Giem
April 9, 2009
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