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Programs, cells and letting God be God (A concluding reply to the Smithy)

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I would like to thank Dr. Sullivan for his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence which has helped to clear the air enormously. In his closing comments, Dr. Sullivan calls for calm in the debate over life’s origin, and urges that the origin of life should be examined dispassionately, in an atmosphere free from theological bias. He is of course quite right, and in this post, I intend to engage him on precisely those terms. What I propose to do is address some general issues raised by Dr. Sullivan in his latest post on ID.

Life – an agreed definition?

While our views on the formal conditions for something’s being alive are somewhat divergent, I think we can now agree on the finalistic conditions.

In his his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence, Dr. Sullivan made some highly pertinent criticisms of the finalistic definition of life that I originally proposed, viz. that a living thing is a thing with a good of its own. This was followed by a helpful clarification (see UPDATE 2) by Professor Feser of an alleged difference I had pointed out between his way of talking about immanent causality and Dr. Sullivan’s. After reading their comments, I hope that Dr. Sullivan, Professor Feser and I can all agree on the following finalistic definition of life, which is adapted from a remark made in an earlier post by Professor Feser:

A living thing is a natural entity characterized by causal processes occurring within it, which can only be understood as terminating within and benefiting the organism considered as a whole.

Now I’d like to discuss the formal conditions for being alive. Dr. Sullivan has no quarrel with the second and third conditions I proposed (a nested hierarchy and embedded functionality), but he queries the legitimacy of describing the cell in terms of a program. To him, this terminology might be all right if it were merely metaphorical, but the literal usage strikes him as problematic. Now, cells of course do not understand “meaning,” and I would not say that “what happens in the generation of an organism is the application of meaning, according to grammatical rules, to transmit semantic content” (to quote Dr. Sullivan’s words), because this characterization overlooks the mechanics of generation. Instead, I would say that semantic content is indeed transmitted, but that this is accomplished by a chemical process, just as computers (whose programs embody semantic content) actually perform their calculations by means of processes at the electronic level. I would also claim that if scientists want to properly understand how cells work, then the only appropriate way to do so is to speak in terms of a program contained in their DNA. In other words, scientists need to employ the notion of semantic content to grasp how living things work. Now that is surely a very odd fact.

Is the “program” in the cell a real program?

The answer, I would maintain, is: yes, and it’s as literally a program as the nose on your face is literally a nose. There’s no metaphor here.

Both Dr. Sullivan and Professor Feser have queried my terminology here, so I’d like to cite a few scientifically respectable sources for my claim.

Let me begin with the late Daniel Koshland, Jr. (1920-2007), former editor of the journal Science, a long time professor of molecular and cell biology at UC Berkeley, and author of an oft-cited essay entitled, The Seven Pillars of Life, in Science 22 March 2002: Vol. 295. no. 5563, pp. 2215 – 2216, DOI: 10.1126/science.1068489. I shall quote a key extract:

What is the definition of life?… I think the fundamental pillars on which life as we know it is based can be defined. By “pillars” I mean the essential principles – thermodynamic and kinetic – by which a living system operates…

The first pillar of life is a Program. By program I mean an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time. For the living systems we observe on Earth, this program is implemented by the DNA that encodes the genes of Earth’s organisms and that is replicated from generation to generation, with small changes but always with the overall plan intact. The genes in turn encode for chemicals – the proteins, nucleic acids, etc. – that carry out the reactions in living systems. It is in the DNA that the program is summarized and maintained for life on Earth.

Here’s software developer Bill Gates (who is incidentally an atheist): “Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”(The Road Ahead, Penguin: London, Revised, 1996, p. 228.)

When Bill Gates says something like that, I pay attention.

I’d also like to quote from an article by Alex Williams, a creationist who spent most of his professional career working as a botanist for the Australian government, and who is currently a Research Associate at the Western Australian Herbarium, specializing in the taxonomy of grasses. The article is entitled, “Astonishing complexity of DNA demolishes neo-Darwinism,” and was published in the Journal of Creation 21(3), 2007 (pages 111-117). It is available online at http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_3/j21_3_111-117.pdf . Here’s a short extract:

The traditional understanding of DNA has recently been transformed beyond recognition. DNA does not, as we thought, carry a linear, one-dimensional, one-way, sequential code — like the lines of letters and words on this page. And the 97% in humans that does not carry protein-coding genes is not, as many people thought, fossilized ‘junk’ left over from our evolutionary ancestors. DNA information is overlapping – multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards; and the ‘junk’ is far more functional than the protein code, so there is no fossilized history of evolution. No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to.

That’s just a short quote to whet the reader’s appetite. The author goes on to describe how DNA instantiates coding techniques that are more efficient than anything dreamed of by human computer programmers, with the same code having layers upon layers of meaning. His discussion of meta-information is also well worth reading. More recently, Alex Williams has published an update on his research at http://creation.com/astonishing-dna-complexity-update .

It was Williams’ article that alerted me to what ID was all about, a few years ago. I could finally understand the scientific evidence that living things had been designed by an Intelligent Creator. Living things contained programs that were cleverer than anything we could design. To not infer a Designer for these programs would be an act of intellectual blindness.

Finally, I’d like to cite Dr. Don Johnson, who has a Ph.D. in chemistry and a Ph.D in computer and information sciences, gave a presentation entitled Bioinformatics: The Information in Life for the University of North Carolina Wilmington chapter of the Association for Computer Machinery, on April 8, 2010. Dr. Johnson’s presentation is now on-line at http://vimeo.com/11314902 . Both the talk and accompanying handout notes can be accessed from Dr. Johnson’s Web page at http://scienceintegrity.net/ . Dr. Johnson spent 20 years teaching in universities in Wisconsin, Minnesota, California, and Europe. Here’s an excerpt from the presentation blurb:

Each cell of an organism has millions of interacting computers reading and processing digital information using algorithmic digital programs and digital codes to communicate and translate information.

I’d like to quote a brief excerpt from Dr. Johnson’s presentation:

“Somehow we have a genetic operating system that is ubiquitous. All known life-forms have the same genetic code. They all have the same protein manufacturing facilities in the ribosomes. They all use the same types of techniques. So something is pre-existing, and the particular genome is the set of programs in the DNA for any particular organism. So the genome is not the DNA, and the DNA is not the program. The DNA is simply a storage device. The genome is the program that’s stored in the storage device, and that depends on the particular organism we’re talking about.”

On a slide entitled “Information Systems In Life,” Dr. Johnson points out that:

  • the genetic system is a pre-existing operating system;
  • the specific genetic program (genome) is an application;
  • the native language has codon-based encryption system;
  • the codes are read by enzyme computers with their own operating system;
  • each enzyme’s output is to another operating system in a ribosome;
  • codes are decrypted and output to tRNA computers;
  • each codon-specified amino acid is transported to a protein construction site; and
  • in each cell, there are multiple operating systems, multiple programming languages, encoding/decoding hardware and software, specialized communications systems, error detection/correction systems, specialized input/output for organelle control and feedback, and a variety of specialized “devices” to accomplish the tasks of life.

To sum up: the use of the word “program” to describe the workings of the cell is scientifically respectable. I would like to add that although I used the term “master program” in a previous post, it matters little for my purposes how many programs are running in the cell; what matters is that they are well co-ordinated. In the absence of this co-ordination, they would be unable to accomplish their respective tasks smoothly and harmoniously, as they would be liable to interfere with one another.

I believe that the question of whether the program contained in the DNA of cells is a real program needs to be turned on its head. The program in DNA is a paradigm of what a good program should be like. The question we should be asking ourselves is: do our poorly written human programs, which are but a pale imitation of the Real Thing, deserve to be called programs in the true sense of the word? In other words, the shoe is on the other foot. If the program in our DNA is not a program, then nothing is.

Future directions for science

If living cells embody programs which are far superior to anything written by our own scientists, then the future direction of science is clear: we have to reverse-engineer the cell. This is part of a grander project, which Dr. Steve Fuller has written about: the endeavor to reverse-engineer the Divine plan. Let me add that I do not believe that this project is tied to a mechanistic conception of life; rather I see it as a simple consequence of the fact that the Universe was designed to be understood. In so doing, we are “thinking God’s thoughts after Him,” as Newton put it.

As I see it, the atheistic denial of a Designer of nature is therefore a “science-stopper.” When scientists unthinkingly accept the common prejudice that Nature is blind, they stop looking for reasons why nature might do things in a particular way that may appear scientifically puzzling. Instead of digging deeper, they conclude that the organism they are looking at is a “kludge” or that its DNA contains “junk.”

The intellectual impetus behind ID is the conviction that the design we see in nature is intelligible to rational human beings who are prepared to look at nature with an open mind.

What does my “program argument” prove, anyway?

Both Professor Feser and Dr. Sullivan raise the legitimate question of whether my argument from “There is a program in our DNA” to “DNA was designed by an Intelligent Being” begs the question, in terms of its teleological assumptions. Let me say at the outset that I would not use this argument on a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic who denied the existence of teleology in living things. When arguing with such a skeptic, I would cite the ID argument made in Dr. Stephen Meyer’s Signature in the Cell. It is a simple fact that the DNA in the cell exhibits two properties: Shannon complexity and functional specificity. Thus we can describe it as containing specified information. The best explanation for the vast amount of specified information found in even the simplest living things is an intelligent designer. In the absence of such a designer, the likelihood of laws of nature and/or chance events generating the amount of specified information found in the cell is astronomically low. Dr. Meyer’s argument is solid and scientifically respectable, and can be used against any skeptic. It appeals to probabilities, not because it contains mechanistic assumptions, but because it seeks to engage skeptics on their own turf.

My argument that living things instantiate programs, and that neither the laws of nature nor chance are reliably capable of creating programs, leaving intelligence as the only reliable explanation of the programs we find in living things, is an argument that would appeal to anyone with an open mind. The argument does appeal to an immanently teleological feature of organisms: life instantiates programs. In that sense, it is indeed Aristotelian. But the argument does not require an explicit avowal of Aristotelian teleology. It simply invokes a commonly used way of talking about DNA, which many scientists feel increasingly comfortable with, and it proceeds from that starting point. Thus it appeals to a way of talking which is implicitly teleological, and then appeals to the elegance and perfection in the cell’s programs as evidence of a Higher Intelligence. As scientists make further discoveries of the beauty of the cell’s code in the years to come, I believe that this argument for a Designer of the cell will gain strength.

Beyond “either-or”: let God be God

In his post, Dr. Sullivan makes a plea for thinking that goes beyond “the dichotomy that God is either the blind watchmaker that winds up the universe at the big bang and then lets it unspool according to blind laws, or that he has to enter into the world and tinker around with particles in order to make things come out as he likes.”

I agree. The Judeo-Christian view is that God continually upholds nature, sustaining it in being by his Word. No living thing could survive even for an instant without God. God is infinitely more than a watchmaker.

But we know that life had an origin at some point. How did it originate? In my original response to the Smithy) , I was somewhat harsh in my criticism of the view that the laws of nature alone, combined with just about any old set of initial conditions, could have generated the first living thing. The language I used was rather judgmental, and I’d like to apologize for any offence caused. I have reflected on Dr. Sullivan’s arguments in his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence and have modified my own views somewhat. What I’d now like to do is make a short list of all possible origin-of-life scenarios, and briefly discuss the theological implications of each.

As I see it, the first living thing could have been generated by one of three processes:
(a) the laws of nature alone, with no need for a specific set of initial conditions, because any set of conditions would generate a living thing somewhere in the universe;
(b) the laws of nature, combined with a very specific set of initial conditions;
(c) an act of intelligent intervention, which may or may not have been followed by other acts of intervention.

Can anyone think of any others?

I have discussed something like scenario (a) previously from an ID perspective, in a short post of mine:

Because ID is agnostic regarding the Designer’s modus operandi, it allows for the possibility that scientists might one day discover bio-friendly laws, which, when combined, constitute a “magic pathway” leading from simple substances to complex life. But these laws would themselves have to be highly specific (e.g. relating to particular molecules), extremely numerous (perhaps numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands), and in some way sequential (so that together, they would make up a series of stepping stones leading to life and complex animals). In short, they would be quite unlike any laws discovered to date, as the laws we know are general, relatively few in number, non-sequential and information-poor.

On this view, the laws of the universe are designed for life, but not for any particular life-form such as ourselves. Our own individual existence could still be planned, however, by God choosing a particular set of initial conditions at the moment of the Big Bang, which He knew would eventually give rise to us.

What ID tells us here is that if you want laws that will generate life under any set of initial conditions, they would have to be very, very specific. Life has a high degree of specified complexity. A simple set of laws won’t do the trick.

Scenario (b) has been discussed by Professor Michael Behe in The Edge of Evolution (The Free Press: New York, 2007, pp. 231-232). In essence, Professor Michael Behe’s proposal is that God set up the universe at the beginning of time with an extremely finely tuned set of initial conditions, so that all He had to do was press “Play,” as it were, and the universe then unfolded naturally, resulting in the first living organism. On this view, God designed the initial conditions, with a view to producing the first living thing.

The design implications of scenario (c) are too obvious to require spelling out.

Summing up, it seems to me that all three scenarios are ID-compatible. Scenario (a) would appear quite congenial to theistic evolutionists, and perhaps (b) as well. Scenarios (a) and (b) require no act of supernatural intervention within the cosmos to create life, but of course they require intelligence to design a cosmos that can generate life.

What does ID have to say about these scenarios? ID should remain “above the fray,” as it is concerned with science rather than theology. What the scientific discipline of Intelligent Design can tell us, however, is that the design of life, by whatever process, requires a great deal of specificity – whether in the laws of nature themselves, the initial conditions of the universe, or in an act of Divine intervention resulting in life.

I’d like to conclude by thanking Dr. Sullivan for a lively exchange. Dr. Sullivan’s concluding comments can be found here. I am grateful for the opportunity this exchange has afforded me to sharpen my own views on the origin of life.

Comments
aleta, Do you, as a atheistic materialist, believe consciousness emerged from a 3 dimensional material basis?bornagain77
May 5, 2010
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Stephen wrote,
Life was certainly present “as” a cause in the sense that the first cause is life itself, [the uncaused cause (God)] and, to be sure, that same uncaused cause could, if He chose, program “into” a secondary cause a potential for life built into matter that could later unfold into actual life. On the other hand, that secondary cause, as a process, cannot, on its own, be the sole cause for the life that unfolds because the first cause had to once establish and must continually sustain that same process. Processes, conditions, and laws cannot be their own cause, as I have pointed out many times. Further, the primary cause, [the conceiver and sustaining force] is always nobler than the secondary cause and its derivative effects [the proposed process out of which life is said to “emerge.”] Further still, the first cause cannot itself be an impersonal process, condition, or law, because it must, through an act of the will, choose to create. So, if some groups want to corrupt science and hypothesize that the life “emerged” from the material process ALONE, without reference to the logically necessary program and sustaining power required for its development and final maturation, or to even deny that it is a maturation process at all, as Darwinists [and some TEs] do, such an initiative cannot be a rational scientific enterprise because it denies and even forbids the application of the law of causality [life can only come from life], [processes unfold according to a plan], [plans cannot create themselves]. If they try to take it one step further, as Darwinists [and some TEs] do, and restrict science to their one irrational hypothesis, forbidding any investigation into the program that informs the ways in which matter [allegedly] achieved its end, or the power that sustains the program, or any design patterns imbedded in the mix, or any possibility that information was front loaded, that is intellectual tyranny. Oh yes, and did I forget to say that it is also irrational.
It seems like what Stephen is saying that any explanation of what has happened in the physical world must also include reference to God, both because he created it all in the first place and because without his sustaining effort the plans and designs that he embedded into nature would not develop. To deny this, and to not include it in one's explanations, is irrational and is in fact intellectual tyranny. I remember once where Stephen pointed out that for him theology comes first, philosophy next, and empirical study last (something like that.) This is here quite obvious. Since I don't believe in God - certainly not the one Stephen is invoking here, I can't even discuss causality with him. I find this all pretty weird that the conversation has gotten to this point, but at least now I understand better the issue about emergence that I have been puzzled about: according to Stephen, things emerge only because they are part of God's plan, not because the natural world in and of itself is capable of doing the emerging. I find this worldview foreign, puzzling, and not useful, but by persevering I at least understand more deeply what people like Stephen believe, and that is one of the main reasons I get involved in discussions like this.Aleta
May 5, 2010
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We always hear about the atrocities of religion. It seems to me, however, that the atrocities stem from not following the moral guidelines of religion, at least most. It seems to me, then, that religion is not the cause. A more detailed analysis is needed, of course.Phaedros
May 5, 2010
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Aleta, All I can say is thank God, with the capital G, that we live in America where such freedom of discussions about God have been a right since our founding in that it does not get you sent to "reeducation camp". For example This is from O'Leary's current thread: "In the communist country, where I grew up, State would often diagnose Christian parents with dementia or some other cognitive dysfunction. They would be put in asylum and their children taken into State’s custody. I must add that this treatment would be temporary, lasting few weeks or so. I was ten years old. Oh, I am sorry… forgot that communism is not the same as atheism. My bad. All I am saying is that you should not take statement “Ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked” lightly." https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/coffee-new-york-times-pundit-book-rather-weakens-the-case-for-the-existence-of-antony-flew/#comment-353614bornagain77
May 5, 2010
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That was a very interesting video on Kant's ideas about design. I have read some of his work bu I never seem to be able to decide whether he was a believer in God or not. I seem to be getting different interpretations from different sources. Anyone care to shed some light on that? I'm just curious.above
May 5, 2010
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ba, the atrocities committed in the name of religion are legion, and continue to this day. Why you would want to bring this topic into the discussion is beyond me. The topic that I am involved in discussing here has to to do with the philosophy of causality in the natural world, and in fact many theists would agree with the points I'm making. If this is your idea of how to participate in a discussion, then you can count me out.Aleta
May 5, 2010
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Aleta, I don't think it to be poisoning the well at all to point out the price millions have paid for a belief you are apparently so cavalier about so as to admit its "plausibility" just for convenience sake so to "move the discussion forward". I find it highly ironic as a matter of fact.bornagain77
May 5, 2010
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Note: I wrote my last response before I saw Stephen's post in which he did respond to the question I asked. I will, at some point, consider Stephen's response.Aleta
May 5, 2010
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ba, I did not, and do not, watch the videos you link to. And raising the subject of atrocities by atheists really poisons the well in the discussion. And the subject in this thread, for me, isn't atheism - as I've twice posted I'm accepting for the sake of this discussion that the universe was created with the fine-turned properties and original conditions that it has. The issue of interest to me is the idea of emergence - that new things arise as times passes, and that there is nothing in life that was not "present" in the original state of the universe. As I asked Stephen, one question is if the universe was fine-tuned for life, why have a problem with the idea of life arising out of that fine-tuned universe?Aleta
May 5, 2010
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---Aleta: "Stephen, in 77 I wrote, “to Stephen: For the sake of discussion, I will accept (because it is indeed a possibility) that the universe was created by a creator who set both the initial conditions and the properties of the original constituent parts of the universe (and by “parts” I mean particles, energies and forces which we now know intermingle to form what we call the physical universe.) I will also accept (because I believe it is true) that from that moment of creation each moment has followed causally from the moment before it” We would have to agree that the law of causation logically requires a first cause. To say that a first cause is a "possibility" would not suffice. That would be like saying, ["lets talk biology. I agree that some events may be caused." or let’s talk forensics. “I agree that some murders require a murderer.”] That is what Darwinists do. They accept causality when the please and reject it when they please. ---"Is that enough to move the discussion forward, past the issue of first cause and on to some of the other points I made to you?" No, it’s not enough, but that doesn’t stop me from answering questions. Is this the question you had in mind? ---"OK, if the universe is fine-tuned for life, why do you then declare that life was not “present in the cause. ‘If the universe is fine-tuned for life, why not accept that life is a natural consequence of the beginning state?" Life was certainly present "as" a cause in the sense that the first cause is life itself, [the uncaused cause (God)] and, to be sure, that same uncaused cause could, if He chose, program "into" a secondary cause a potential for life built into matter that could later unfold into actual life. On the other hand, that secondary cause, as a process, cannot, on its own, be the sole cause for the life that unfolds because the first cause had to once establish and must continually sustain that same process. Processes, conditions, and laws cannot be their own cause, as I have pointed out many times. Further, the primary cause, [the conceiver and sustaining force] is always nobler than the secondary cause and its derivative effects [the proposed process out of which life is said to “emerge.”] Further still, the first cause cannot itself be an impersonal process, condition, or law, because it must, through an act of the will, choose to create. So, if some groups want to corrupt science and hypothesize that the life “emerged” from the material process ALONE, without reference to the logically necessary program and sustaining power required for its development and final maturation, or to even deny that it is a maturation process at all, as Darwinists [and some TEs] do, such an initiative cannot be a rational scientific enterprise because it denies and even forbids the application of the law of causality [life can only come from life], [processes unfold according to a plan], [plans cannot create themselves]. If they try to take it one step further, as Darwinists [and some TEs] do, and restrict science to their one irrational hypothesis, forbidding any investigation into the program that informs the ways in which matter [allegedly] achieved its end, or the power that sustains the program, or any design patterns imbedded in the mix, or any possibility that information was front loaded, that is intellectual tyranny. Oh yes, and did I forget to say that it is also irrational.StephenB
May 5, 2010
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Aleta: I trust you will take some time to address the already linked warranted credible truths approach to assessing and comparing worldviews on their degree of accuracy to reality; i.e. on truth. A key part of that is the issue that what exists has a good and sufficient reason or explanation. If contingent, it is caused -- i.e things that begin to exist do not begin out of nothing, for no reason. (This of course raises the issue of necessary beings that would include the first cause of a cosmos that credibly had a beginning.) And, causal factors will be sufficient, or necessary or both. Coming back to focus, what is the known adequate causal explanation of:
The first pillar of life is a Program. By program I mean an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time. For the living systems we observe on Earth, this program is implemented by the DNA [I ADD: A 4-STATE STRING-CHAINED DIGITAL INFO STORING ENTITY] that encodes the genes of Earth’s organisms and that is replicated [adding: as in von Neumann replicator] from generation to generation, with small changes but always with the overall plan [as in functional body plan . . . ] intact. The genes in turn encode for chemicals – the proteins, nucleic acids, etc. – that carry out the reactions in living systems. It is in the DNA that the program is summarized and maintained for life on Earth. [Koshland, 2002, cite and link in original post]
Can you provide an empirically observed, rationally credible alternative explanation? Especially given the highlighted? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 5, 2010
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Aleta, I hope the point of the Cassie, Do You Believe In God, video is not lost on you. i.e. What you casually admit to be true as "adequate" so as to move the discussion forward. Is a belief that has cost millions of people there lives for holding onto that belief. Atheist Atrocities Frightening Stats About Atheists http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYUbornagain77
May 5, 2010
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Off topic music video: Do You Believe In God? "Cassie" -By Flyleaf http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwJIW-6bTt0bornagain77
May 5, 2010
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Stephen, in 77 I wrote, "to Stephen: For the sake of discussion, I will accept (because it is indeed a possibility) that the universe was created by a creator who set both the initial conditions and the properties of the original constituent parts of the universe (and by “parts” I mean particles, energies and forces which we now know intermingle to form what we call the physical universe.) I will also accept (because I believe it is true) that from that moment of creation each moment has followed causally from the moment before it" Is that enough to move the discussion forward, past the issue of first cause and on to some of the other points I made to you?Aleta
May 5, 2010
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---Aleta: "Stephen, all your comments were about the first cause, by which I presume you mean the creator of the universe itself. That’s not relevent because I’m talking about what has happened after the universe began." Yes, of course they were. That is an important part of the subject matter that I have been covering, and the same subject matter that you studiously avoid, as you acknolwedge. As I have stated many times on this site, atheist materialists, like yourself, reject causality and by extension, first causes. This flaw renders them, and you, incapable of evaluting evidence in a reasonable way. I am well aware that it is NOT what you are talking about because what you are talking about is an attempt to evade what I am talking about. Like all materialist Darwinists, you reject causality and reason, which is why I don't typically discuss science with those in your camp. It is a total waste of time to discuss science, which is a search for causes, with anyone who doesn't accept the law of causality.StephenB
May 5, 2010
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Aleta: You need to get5 back to the point. Above, you affirmed that "I find that metaphysical explanations are quite varied without there being any way to investigate which of them are truer than others." This is a global, radically relativist claim. And it is manifestly and obviously wrong to anyone who has taken time to think seriously about the significance of comparative difficulties analysis on worldviews, and especially so to those of us who have taken time to look at the issue of self evident truths and first principles of right reason. There are definite ways and means for seeing which core worldview claims are more or less reasonable by virtue of factual adequacy coherence and explanatory power. As a rule, on much experience, those who, on claiming to have been educated in relevant subjects, refuse to use those tools, show that they are for whatever reason trying to stick with views that have less warrant. Indeed, radical relativism is exactly one of the views that is self referentially incoherent. And that has been well known since Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. Why not start with the exchange in The Laws, Bk X, as that is the first major record of a philosophical discussion on the serious design inference, and of evolutionary materialism and radical relativism and of amorality. Notice the context of comparative difficulties analysis, starting with how Plato sets aside the mythological paganism of Athens [thus ruling out many strawmen], then gets tot he real issues Let me get the ball rolling, with an excerpt: _____________________ >>Ath. At Athens there are tales preserved in writing which the virtue of your state, as I am informed, refuses to admit. They speak of the Gods in prose as well as verse, and the oldest of them tell of the origin of the heavens and of the world, and not far from the beginning of their story they proceed to narrate the birth of the Gods, and how after they were born they behaved to one another. Whether these stories have in other ways a good or a bad influence, I should not like to be severe upon them, because they are ancient; but, looking at them with reference to the duties of children to their parents, I cannot praise them, or think that they are useful, or at all true. [[Notice Plato's own carefully stated skepticisms and moral concerns regarding classical paganism.] Of the words of the ancients I have nothing more to say; and I should wish to say of them only what is pleasing to the Gods. But as to our younger generation and their wisdom, I cannot let them off when they do mischief. For do but mark the effect of their words: when you and I argue for the existence of the Gods, and produce the sun, moon, stars, and earth, claiming for them a divine being, if we would listen to the aforesaid philosophers we should say that they are earth and stones only, which can have no care at all of human affairs, and that all religion is a cooking up of words and a make-believe . . . . [[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them . . . These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[here, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . . Ath. Then, by Heaven, we have discovered the source of this vain opinion of all those physical investigators; and I would have you examine their arguments with the utmost care, for their impiety is a very serious matter; they not only make a bad and mistaken use of argument, but they lead away the minds of others: that is my opinion of them. Cle. You are right; but I should like to know how this happens. Ath. I fear that the argument may seem singular. Cle. Do not hesitate, Stranger; I see that you are afraid of such a discussion carrying you beyond the limits of legislation. But if there be no other way of showing our agreement in the belief that there are Gods, of whom the law is said now to approve, let us take this way, my good sir. Ath. Then I suppose that I must repeat the singular argument of those who manufacture the soul according to their own impious notions; they affirm that which is the first cause of the generation and destruction of all things, to be not first, but last, and that which is last to be first, and hence they have fallen into error about the true nature of the Gods. Cle. Still I do not understand you. Ath. Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [[ = psuche], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul's kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body? Cle. Certainly. Ath. Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind. Cle. But why is the word "nature" wrong? Ath. Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise. [[ . . . .] Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.] >> __________________________ Come now, let us reason together. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 5, 2010
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Of course we all have worldviews. All worldviews contain beliefs that are not confirmable in the same way that empirically-based beliefs about the material world are, but are chosen by us to meet other needs. Having such affirmed beliefs is an important, and inescapable part of being human. However, the sheer variety of such beliefs is powerful evidence that such beliefs are not of the same kind as beliefs about the physical world. Given that I have quite a bit of education in religion and belief systems, I don't think I am ill informed about this.Aleta
May 5, 2010
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Aleta, There is a formal proof that the metaphysical claims of Theism are true IF you demand causal adequacy for your explanations. Yet you do not demand as such. In fact you demand that materialism be exempt from causal adequacy, within the scientific method, just so as to protect it from falsification. Thus it is pointless to present a formal proof of Theism to one, such as you, who sees no problem with allowing such a personal philosophical biases to overrule reason.bornagain77
May 5, 2010
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Keith Ward saying evolutionary theory originated with Hegel as progressivist idealistic theism which was accepted by Darwin's father or grandfather. http://vimeo.com/10285289Just Thinking
May 5, 2010
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Aleta, as has been exhaustively pointed out to you in this thread, it does not follow logically for you to claim integrity of causal adequacy, for your reasoning, if you only choose what you prefer to be true from a a-priori metaphysical commitment to materialism. You must prove your metaphysical claim first! That you would claim proof for materialism, from what you "observe", though you have offered ZERO "observations" of purely material processes ever generating functional information, and all the while generating functional information with your mind in your response to me, should be the very definition of absurd we find in dictionaries. As to see that this has been gone through with you with a fine tooth comb by many UDers and have you still refuse to relinquish your blindness to the matter, gives me no hope to make you "see" otherwise. I will leave that to others with more patience than I.bornagain77
May 5, 2010
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Aleta: I see your:
I find that metaphysical explanations are quite varied without there being any way to investigate which of them are truer than others.
This is simply false and ill informed. Worse, once we climb up to the research programme level, as Lakatos pointed out, scientific research programmes, att heir core become worldview -- i.e. metaphysically -- deeply and inextricably embedded. So, learning to use comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power is a challenge that serious scientists cannot responsibly duck. I suggest you start here and here, to see that we all have worldviews and that we have means of assessing which are more/less credible relative to canons of reasonable warrant. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 5, 2010
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Aleta Actually there is credible reason to hold that evolutionary materialism is necessarily false on self referential incoherence. Cf here for one simple summary of why. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 5, 2010
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P S If you listen to all six parts, you see Ward defends DesCartes and says Rene is not a dualist, but a monist as was Spinoza.Just Thinking
May 5, 2010
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Keith Ward - same theologian as I linked to on Kant - says consciousness IS emergent from nature. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ0q5UEtFDg&NR=1Just Thinking
May 5, 2010
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ba, I have no idea why you presumed that my lack of response to you is because I found it “beneath my dignity”, and I don't know why you found it necessary and/or useful to make such a statement. You write, "how about just proving your materialistic philosophy, upon which all your evolutionary conjectures are based, is true in the first place. i.e. please show the formal proof why materialism should be considered true from a investigative starting point." There is no formal proof that materialism is true any more than there is a formal proof that any other metaphysical belief system is true. My support of materialism is based on experience and evidence - I see that examining physical causes and finding explanations for how the world works in terms of those causes has been successful in many ways, and I find that metaphysical explanations are quite varied without there being any way to investigate which of them are truer than others. This latter fact makes me think that beliefs about things other than the material world are stories people have invented to try to deal with the fact that there is much we cannot know. I respect highly this aspect of humanity, but I don't think it is about truth in the same way material explanations are.Aleta
May 5, 2010
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Shoot Aleta, if you refuse to falsify Abel's null hypothesis because you find it "beneath your dignity", how about just proving your materialistic philosophy, upon which all your evolutionary conjectures are based, is true in the first place. i.e. please show the formal proof why materialism should be considered true from a investigative starting point. Uncertainty Principle - The "Non-Particle" Basis Of Reality - video and article http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109172 http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty/ "Atoms are not things" Werner Heisenberg Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world. http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2904125/k.E94E/Why_Quantum_Theory_Does_Not_Support_Materialism.htm shoot aleta we can't even find over 95% of the universe: Dark Energy 72.1% Exotic Dark Matter 23.3% Ordinary Dark Matter 4.35% Ordinary Bright Matter (Stars) 0.27% Planets 0.0001% of note: The inventory of the universe is updated to the second and third releases of the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe's (WMAP) results in 2006 & 2008; (Why The Universe Is The Way It Is; Hugh Ross; pg. 37) REPORT OF THE DARK ENERGY TASK FORCE The abstract of the September 2006 Report of the Dark Energy Task Force says: “Dark energy appears to be the dominant component of the physical Universe, yet there is no persuasive theoretical explanation for its existence or magnitude. The acceleration of the Universe is, along with dark matter, the observed phenomenon that most directly demonstrates that our (materialistic) theories of fundamental particles and gravity are either incorrect or incomplete. Most experts believe that nothing short of a revolution in our understanding of fundamental physics will be required to achieve a full understanding of the cosmic acceleration. For these reasons, the nature of dark energy ranks among the very most compelling of all outstanding problems in physical science. These circumstances demand an ambitious observational program to determine the dark energy properties as well as possible.” http://jdem.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/Decadal_Survey-Dark_Energy_Task_Force_report.pdf Whereas Aleta I can show that "non-material", and conscious, infinite information inhabits the "primary reality" that can be inhabited: i.e. --- hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, but, and this is a big but; this "timeless" travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework/dimension of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. In information teleportation though the "time not passing", eternal, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but also in our temporal framework/dimension. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks/dimensions, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus "pure information" is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks/dimensions. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which It resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
May 5, 2010
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Aleta: Now that my emergency with a client is paused for the moment, let me take up your two main objections in 80: >> 1. All calculations of how improbable certain things are, such as strings of base pairs, are based on the “pure-chance” hypothesis that the component parts came to together simultaneously and entirely by chance.>> You simply have not read the discussion above or in the linked or in the weak argument correctives. For you will see that no probability calculations have been offered -- never mind that there are excellent statistical thermodynamics reasons to start from the hypothesis of equiprobability of individual microstates of a given macrostate -- but instead an assessment of degree of searchability of a configuration space. Once we are past about 500 - 1,000 bits or the equivalent of information storage, the universe does not have the configurational resources to scan a fraction of the accessible configurations that is materially different from zero. If you cannot have enough time and resources and fast enough action steps to search the haystack [and we are using Planck-time steps, of order 10_44s, where the fastest chemical processes (not relevant to organic chemistry which is much slower) are of order 10^-15 s!], the needle is effectively lost beyond recall, unless you are willing to appeal to blind luck beyond all plausibility, thousands of times over, to get to the origin of life and major body plans. In short, you are appealing to the materialist equivalent of miracles [and without a credible causal force for said miracles], and are using a distractive strawman to help you in rejecting the empirically well established inference that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information are reliable signs of intelligent causal action. What has been discussed -- in slightly more details [cf linked discussion here on in the UD weak argument correctives . . . ] -- is that the whole observed universe, acting on chance + necessity only, is not capable of searching out as much as 1 in 10^150 of the configurations of just 125 bytes of information. But, we routinely and reliably observe such FSCI being created by intelligent agents, tot he point where -- absent evolutionary materialism not being at stake -- it is utterly uncontroversial that we infer from FSCI [e.g. posts in this thread] to intelligent causation. 125 bytes is uttrerly too small for a von Neumann rpelicator, but the threshold suffices to show that the notion of hill-climbing from initial functionality to optimal funciton through random variation and environmental culling is question-begging. In particular neither at the origin of life nor the origin of major body plans do you have a credible mechanism for the spontaneous origin of a c-chemistry von Neumann replicator of a given general type. As was shown from 44 on, such a VNR is irreducibly complex, as without the organised components fully integrated and coordinated, it cannot work. So, your all at once objection is a disguised admission of failure. And if there is a law of nature and associated forces and circumstances -- or a cluster of such laws, forces and circumstances [what "dynamics" is about] -- that in effect "spontaneously" triggers emergence of such vNRs in still warm ponds once conditions are right, that would imply a degree of finetuning of our cosmos that points straight to design. That is, it would be a proof that nature is PROGRAMMED. >>2. CJ then writes, “Next, we observe that the sequence in question is not defined by the category of causation known as law.” The mistake here is to think there is some one law that explains the pattern under question (DNA, proteins, or whatever), but again there is no scientist who believes that such a thing would need to exist to explain life, any more than there is a law that explains tornadoes. >> Strawman. Notice, CJY is discussing law in general, i.e he is taking in the gamut of dynamics on initial circumstances of physical entities, forces and associated laws of necessity or statistical behaviour that would generate a dynamical process. So, he is not at all speaking of any one law, or even a cluster of laws, but the whole category of necessity and chance jointly considered in a dynamical situation. In that context, he is correctly observing that for instance functional programs using digital codes and expressing data structures and algorithms are not within the empirically credible reach of such chance plus blind necessity; on the gamut of our observed cosmos. That is, CJY, SB, myself and others have been discussing dynamics, where we observe that situations are credibly explained on causal factors tracing to combination of chance, mechanical necessity and agency. The number of particular laws, forces, and circumstantial conditions at initiation are irrelevant to and distractive from the actual issue: chance plus necessity are insufficient to credibly account for FSCI on the gamut of our observed cosmos. And in the case of vNRs, that is doubly so as they are irreducibly complex. Moreover, codes, algorithms and data structures are inherently cognitive and linguistic elements. They may be impressed on information bearers such as voltages, magnetisation states, etc, but they are using these as we use paper to carry inked in glyphs. Paper and ink and quill feathers do not explain Shakespeare's sonnets, and DNA chemistry does not explain the code based, algorithmic, data structure using coordinated structures and systems exposed by microbiologists and biochemists, etc. in recent decades. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 5, 2010
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Aleta, if you believe material processes can create information though no one has ever observed this happening, and you believe you are being rational in holding such a position, do you "mind" falsifying Abel's null hypothesis: The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag As far as me demonstrating that a mind can generate information, I have given you a clear demonstration of 100% certainty that a mind can and does generate information simply by writing this post. Though many would probably question the quality of the information generated by my mind at least I can take pride in the fact that I have exceeded what is possible for the material universe over the entire history of the universe: notes: This "universal limit" for functional information generation is generously set at 140 Functional Information Bits (Fits) by Kirk Durston whereas a single page of a letter exceeds 700 function bits. Functional information and the emergence of bio-complexity: Robert M. Hazen, Patrick L. Griffin, James M. Carothers, and Jack W. Szostak: Abstract: Complex emergent systems of many interacting components, including complex biological systems, have the potential to perform quantifiable functions. Accordingly, we define 'functional information,' I(Ex), as a measure of system complexity. For a given system and function, x (e.g., a folded RNA sequence that binds to GTP), and degree of function, Ex (e.g., the RNA-GTP binding energy), I(Ex)= -log2 [F(Ex)], where F(Ex) is the fraction of all possible configurations of the system that possess a degree of function > Ex. Functional information, which we illustrate with letter sequences, artificial life, and biopolymers, thus represents the probability that an arbitrary configuration of a system will achieve a specific function to a specified degree. In each case we observe evidence for several distinct solutions with different maximum degrees of function, features that lead to steps in plots of information versus degree of functions.http://genetics.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/publications/Szostak_pdfs/Hazen_etal_PNAS_2007.pdf Evolution vs. Functional Proteins - Doug Axe - Video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4018222 The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds - Douglas Axe - 2010 Excerpt Pg. 11: "Based on analysis of the genomes of 447 bacterial species, the projected number of different domain structures per species averages 991. Comparing this to the number of pathways by which metabolic processes are carried out, which is around 263 for E. coli, provides a rough figure of three or four new domain folds being needed, on average, for every new metabolic pathway. In order to accomplish this successfully, an evolutionary search would need to be capable of locating sequences that amount to anything from one in 10^159 to one in 10^308 possibilities, something the neo-Darwinian model falls short of by a very wide margin." http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1 Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995236 Intelligent Design: Required by Biological Life? February 19, 2008 K.D. Kalinsky Excerpt: It is estimated that the simplest life form would require at least 382 protein-coding genes. Using our estimate in Case Four of 700 bits of functional information required for the average protein, we obtain an estimate of about 267,000 bits for the simplest life form. Again, this is well above Inat and it is about 1080,000 times more likely that ID could produce the minimal genome than mindless natural processes. Again, if one wishes to explain the origin of the simplest life form by natural selection, a fitness function will be required that is capable of generating 267,000 bits of functional information, well into the area that requires intelligent design. http://www.newscholars.com/papers/ID%20Web%20Article.pdf The Universal Plausibility Metric (UPM) & Principle (UPP) - Abel - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: Mere possibility is not an adequate basis for asserting scientific plausibility. A precisely defined universal bound is needed beyond which the assertion of plausibility, particularly in life-origin models, can be considered operationally falsified. But can something so seemingly relative and subjective as plausibility ever be quantified? Amazingly, the answer is, "Yes.",,, c?u = Universe = 10^13 reactions/sec X 10^17 secs X 10^78 atoms = 10^108 c?g = Galaxy = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^66 atoms = 10^96 c?s = Solar System = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^55 atoms = 10^85 c?e = Earth = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^40 atoms = 10^70 ---------------- Information - What it is really? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WytNkw1xOIcbornagain77
May 5, 2010
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Bornagain, read the part beginning "The two most basic counter-arguments are:" in my post 80 above for answers to your question.Aleta
May 5, 2010
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StephenB @75,
If the universe is finely-tuned for life, someone had to fine tune it.
If however, the universe is NOT finely-tuned for life, no one had to fine tune it.Toronto
May 5, 2010
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