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Programs, cells and letting God be God (A concluding reply to the Smithy)

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I would like to thank Dr. Sullivan for his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence which has helped to clear the air enormously. In his closing comments, Dr. Sullivan calls for calm in the debate over life’s origin, and urges that the origin of life should be examined dispassionately, in an atmosphere free from theological bias. He is of course quite right, and in this post, I intend to engage him on precisely those terms. What I propose to do is address some general issues raised by Dr. Sullivan in his latest post on ID.

Life – an agreed definition?

While our views on the formal conditions for something’s being alive are somewhat divergent, I think we can now agree on the finalistic conditions.

In his his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence, Dr. Sullivan made some highly pertinent criticisms of the finalistic definition of life that I originally proposed, viz. that a living thing is a thing with a good of its own. This was followed by a helpful clarification (see UPDATE 2) by Professor Feser of an alleged difference I had pointed out between his way of talking about immanent causality and Dr. Sullivan’s. After reading their comments, I hope that Dr. Sullivan, Professor Feser and I can all agree on the following finalistic definition of life, which is adapted from a remark made in an earlier post by Professor Feser:

A living thing is a natural entity characterized by causal processes occurring within it, which can only be understood as terminating within and benefiting the organism considered as a whole.

Now I’d like to discuss the formal conditions for being alive. Dr. Sullivan has no quarrel with the second and third conditions I proposed (a nested hierarchy and embedded functionality), but he queries the legitimacy of describing the cell in terms of a program. To him, this terminology might be all right if it were merely metaphorical, but the literal usage strikes him as problematic. Now, cells of course do not understand “meaning,” and I would not say that “what happens in the generation of an organism is the application of meaning, according to grammatical rules, to transmit semantic content” (to quote Dr. Sullivan’s words), because this characterization overlooks the mechanics of generation. Instead, I would say that semantic content is indeed transmitted, but that this is accomplished by a chemical process, just as computers (whose programs embody semantic content) actually perform their calculations by means of processes at the electronic level. I would also claim that if scientists want to properly understand how cells work, then the only appropriate way to do so is to speak in terms of a program contained in their DNA. In other words, scientists need to employ the notion of semantic content to grasp how living things work. Now that is surely a very odd fact.

Is the “program” in the cell a real program?

The answer, I would maintain, is: yes, and it’s as literally a program as the nose on your face is literally a nose. There’s no metaphor here.

Both Dr. Sullivan and Professor Feser have queried my terminology here, so I’d like to cite a few scientifically respectable sources for my claim.

Let me begin with the late Daniel Koshland, Jr. (1920-2007), former editor of the journal Science, a long time professor of molecular and cell biology at UC Berkeley, and author of an oft-cited essay entitled, The Seven Pillars of Life, in Science 22 March 2002: Vol. 295. no. 5563, pp. 2215 – 2216, DOI: 10.1126/science.1068489. I shall quote a key extract:

What is the definition of life?… I think the fundamental pillars on which life as we know it is based can be defined. By “pillars” I mean the essential principles – thermodynamic and kinetic – by which a living system operates…

The first pillar of life is a Program. By program I mean an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time. For the living systems we observe on Earth, this program is implemented by the DNA that encodes the genes of Earth’s organisms and that is replicated from generation to generation, with small changes but always with the overall plan intact. The genes in turn encode for chemicals – the proteins, nucleic acids, etc. – that carry out the reactions in living systems. It is in the DNA that the program is summarized and maintained for life on Earth.

Here’s software developer Bill Gates (who is incidentally an atheist): “Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”(The Road Ahead, Penguin: London, Revised, 1996, p. 228.)

When Bill Gates says something like that, I pay attention.

I’d also like to quote from an article by Alex Williams, a creationist who spent most of his professional career working as a botanist for the Australian government, and who is currently a Research Associate at the Western Australian Herbarium, specializing in the taxonomy of grasses. The article is entitled, “Astonishing complexity of DNA demolishes neo-Darwinism,” and was published in the Journal of Creation 21(3), 2007 (pages 111-117). It is available online at http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_3/j21_3_111-117.pdf . Here’s a short extract:

The traditional understanding of DNA has recently been transformed beyond recognition. DNA does not, as we thought, carry a linear, one-dimensional, one-way, sequential code — like the lines of letters and words on this page. And the 97% in humans that does not carry protein-coding genes is not, as many people thought, fossilized ‘junk’ left over from our evolutionary ancestors. DNA information is overlapping – multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards; and the ‘junk’ is far more functional than the protein code, so there is no fossilized history of evolution. No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to.

That’s just a short quote to whet the reader’s appetite. The author goes on to describe how DNA instantiates coding techniques that are more efficient than anything dreamed of by human computer programmers, with the same code having layers upon layers of meaning. His discussion of meta-information is also well worth reading. More recently, Alex Williams has published an update on his research at http://creation.com/astonishing-dna-complexity-update .

It was Williams’ article that alerted me to what ID was all about, a few years ago. I could finally understand the scientific evidence that living things had been designed by an Intelligent Creator. Living things contained programs that were cleverer than anything we could design. To not infer a Designer for these programs would be an act of intellectual blindness.

Finally, I’d like to cite Dr. Don Johnson, who has a Ph.D. in chemistry and a Ph.D in computer and information sciences, gave a presentation entitled Bioinformatics: The Information in Life for the University of North Carolina Wilmington chapter of the Association for Computer Machinery, on April 8, 2010. Dr. Johnson’s presentation is now on-line at http://vimeo.com/11314902 . Both the talk and accompanying handout notes can be accessed from Dr. Johnson’s Web page at http://scienceintegrity.net/ . Dr. Johnson spent 20 years teaching in universities in Wisconsin, Minnesota, California, and Europe. Here’s an excerpt from the presentation blurb:

Each cell of an organism has millions of interacting computers reading and processing digital information using algorithmic digital programs and digital codes to communicate and translate information.

I’d like to quote a brief excerpt from Dr. Johnson’s presentation:

“Somehow we have a genetic operating system that is ubiquitous. All known life-forms have the same genetic code. They all have the same protein manufacturing facilities in the ribosomes. They all use the same types of techniques. So something is pre-existing, and the particular genome is the set of programs in the DNA for any particular organism. So the genome is not the DNA, and the DNA is not the program. The DNA is simply a storage device. The genome is the program that’s stored in the storage device, and that depends on the particular organism we’re talking about.”

On a slide entitled “Information Systems In Life,” Dr. Johnson points out that:

  • the genetic system is a pre-existing operating system;
  • the specific genetic program (genome) is an application;
  • the native language has codon-based encryption system;
  • the codes are read by enzyme computers with their own operating system;
  • each enzyme’s output is to another operating system in a ribosome;
  • codes are decrypted and output to tRNA computers;
  • each codon-specified amino acid is transported to a protein construction site; and
  • in each cell, there are multiple operating systems, multiple programming languages, encoding/decoding hardware and software, specialized communications systems, error detection/correction systems, specialized input/output for organelle control and feedback, and a variety of specialized “devices” to accomplish the tasks of life.

To sum up: the use of the word “program” to describe the workings of the cell is scientifically respectable. I would like to add that although I used the term “master program” in a previous post, it matters little for my purposes how many programs are running in the cell; what matters is that they are well co-ordinated. In the absence of this co-ordination, they would be unable to accomplish their respective tasks smoothly and harmoniously, as they would be liable to interfere with one another.

I believe that the question of whether the program contained in the DNA of cells is a real program needs to be turned on its head. The program in DNA is a paradigm of what a good program should be like. The question we should be asking ourselves is: do our poorly written human programs, which are but a pale imitation of the Real Thing, deserve to be called programs in the true sense of the word? In other words, the shoe is on the other foot. If the program in our DNA is not a program, then nothing is.

Future directions for science

If living cells embody programs which are far superior to anything written by our own scientists, then the future direction of science is clear: we have to reverse-engineer the cell. This is part of a grander project, which Dr. Steve Fuller has written about: the endeavor to reverse-engineer the Divine plan. Let me add that I do not believe that this project is tied to a mechanistic conception of life; rather I see it as a simple consequence of the fact that the Universe was designed to be understood. In so doing, we are “thinking God’s thoughts after Him,” as Newton put it.

As I see it, the atheistic denial of a Designer of nature is therefore a “science-stopper.” When scientists unthinkingly accept the common prejudice that Nature is blind, they stop looking for reasons why nature might do things in a particular way that may appear scientifically puzzling. Instead of digging deeper, they conclude that the organism they are looking at is a “kludge” or that its DNA contains “junk.”

The intellectual impetus behind ID is the conviction that the design we see in nature is intelligible to rational human beings who are prepared to look at nature with an open mind.

What does my “program argument” prove, anyway?

Both Professor Feser and Dr. Sullivan raise the legitimate question of whether my argument from “There is a program in our DNA” to “DNA was designed by an Intelligent Being” begs the question, in terms of its teleological assumptions. Let me say at the outset that I would not use this argument on a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic who denied the existence of teleology in living things. When arguing with such a skeptic, I would cite the ID argument made in Dr. Stephen Meyer’s Signature in the Cell. It is a simple fact that the DNA in the cell exhibits two properties: Shannon complexity and functional specificity. Thus we can describe it as containing specified information. The best explanation for the vast amount of specified information found in even the simplest living things is an intelligent designer. In the absence of such a designer, the likelihood of laws of nature and/or chance events generating the amount of specified information found in the cell is astronomically low. Dr. Meyer’s argument is solid and scientifically respectable, and can be used against any skeptic. It appeals to probabilities, not because it contains mechanistic assumptions, but because it seeks to engage skeptics on their own turf.

My argument that living things instantiate programs, and that neither the laws of nature nor chance are reliably capable of creating programs, leaving intelligence as the only reliable explanation of the programs we find in living things, is an argument that would appeal to anyone with an open mind. The argument does appeal to an immanently teleological feature of organisms: life instantiates programs. In that sense, it is indeed Aristotelian. But the argument does not require an explicit avowal of Aristotelian teleology. It simply invokes a commonly used way of talking about DNA, which many scientists feel increasingly comfortable with, and it proceeds from that starting point. Thus it appeals to a way of talking which is implicitly teleological, and then appeals to the elegance and perfection in the cell’s programs as evidence of a Higher Intelligence. As scientists make further discoveries of the beauty of the cell’s code in the years to come, I believe that this argument for a Designer of the cell will gain strength.

Beyond “either-or”: let God be God

In his post, Dr. Sullivan makes a plea for thinking that goes beyond “the dichotomy that God is either the blind watchmaker that winds up the universe at the big bang and then lets it unspool according to blind laws, or that he has to enter into the world and tinker around with particles in order to make things come out as he likes.”

I agree. The Judeo-Christian view is that God continually upholds nature, sustaining it in being by his Word. No living thing could survive even for an instant without God. God is infinitely more than a watchmaker.

But we know that life had an origin at some point. How did it originate? In my original response to the Smithy) , I was somewhat harsh in my criticism of the view that the laws of nature alone, combined with just about any old set of initial conditions, could have generated the first living thing. The language I used was rather judgmental, and I’d like to apologize for any offence caused. I have reflected on Dr. Sullivan’s arguments in his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence and have modified my own views somewhat. What I’d now like to do is make a short list of all possible origin-of-life scenarios, and briefly discuss the theological implications of each.

As I see it, the first living thing could have been generated by one of three processes:
(a) the laws of nature alone, with no need for a specific set of initial conditions, because any set of conditions would generate a living thing somewhere in the universe;
(b) the laws of nature, combined with a very specific set of initial conditions;
(c) an act of intelligent intervention, which may or may not have been followed by other acts of intervention.

Can anyone think of any others?

I have discussed something like scenario (a) previously from an ID perspective, in a short post of mine:

Because ID is agnostic regarding the Designer’s modus operandi, it allows for the possibility that scientists might one day discover bio-friendly laws, which, when combined, constitute a “magic pathway” leading from simple substances to complex life. But these laws would themselves have to be highly specific (e.g. relating to particular molecules), extremely numerous (perhaps numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands), and in some way sequential (so that together, they would make up a series of stepping stones leading to life and complex animals). In short, they would be quite unlike any laws discovered to date, as the laws we know are general, relatively few in number, non-sequential and information-poor.

On this view, the laws of the universe are designed for life, but not for any particular life-form such as ourselves. Our own individual existence could still be planned, however, by God choosing a particular set of initial conditions at the moment of the Big Bang, which He knew would eventually give rise to us.

What ID tells us here is that if you want laws that will generate life under any set of initial conditions, they would have to be very, very specific. Life has a high degree of specified complexity. A simple set of laws won’t do the trick.

Scenario (b) has been discussed by Professor Michael Behe in The Edge of Evolution (The Free Press: New York, 2007, pp. 231-232). In essence, Professor Michael Behe’s proposal is that God set up the universe at the beginning of time with an extremely finely tuned set of initial conditions, so that all He had to do was press “Play,” as it were, and the universe then unfolded naturally, resulting in the first living organism. On this view, God designed the initial conditions, with a view to producing the first living thing.

The design implications of scenario (c) are too obvious to require spelling out.

Summing up, it seems to me that all three scenarios are ID-compatible. Scenario (a) would appear quite congenial to theistic evolutionists, and perhaps (b) as well. Scenarios (a) and (b) require no act of supernatural intervention within the cosmos to create life, but of course they require intelligence to design a cosmos that can generate life.

What does ID have to say about these scenarios? ID should remain “above the fray,” as it is concerned with science rather than theology. What the scientific discipline of Intelligent Design can tell us, however, is that the design of life, by whatever process, requires a great deal of specificity – whether in the laws of nature themselves, the initial conditions of the universe, or in an act of Divine intervention resulting in life.

I’d like to conclude by thanking Dr. Sullivan for a lively exchange. Dr. Sullivan’s concluding comments can be found here. I am grateful for the opportunity this exchange has afforded me to sharpen my own views on the origin of life.

Comments
StephenB Thanks for the Adler essay. I read it and wish it was easier to follow, but did get many of his points. Maybe too far off topic, but Adler talks of axioms (like 1st principles I suppose) and as an example says 'the whole is greater than its parts'. I found this surprising to hear an Aristotelian-Thomist philosopher supporting the existence of emergence - as axiomatic, no less. From other blogs, I was under the impression that this is forbidden talk among A-Ters. Am I right in assuming that ID is receptive to emergence in the sense of, say, consciousness is an emergent outcome of the brain's operation? (I am a newbie to ID.)Just Thinking
May 4, 2010
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Aleta: "... you have offered no reason why you think that life was not present in the causal beginning of the universe but tornadoes were." The question is framed incorrectly. If there exists an intelligence at the causal beginning of the universe, then life most certainly is "present in the causal beginning" of the universe. So, there is no contention on that point. The question then becomes, "does life contain in it some effect which is not contained in the tornado?" Furthermore, the question continues, "do either the tornado or life exhibit an effect which is not found in a causal structure which is limited to merely law and chance (which could be equated with "the universe" if it is someone's premise that the universe = only law+chance)." These two questions will help us analyze the ID debate in terms of causal adequacy; where everything that exists in the effect must also exist in the cause as StephenB has explained above. - So, let's examine question #1: "Does life contain in it some effect which is not contained in the tornado?" This is simply answered by observing that the tornado contains no communication channel and information processing system where a specific sequence of units are transcribed, sent across a communication channel and are converted into a separate functional machine which aids in reproduction and survivability of the system, whereas life does contain that very process (Yockey, "Origin of life on earth and Shannon’s theory of communication," 1999.). - Now, we can move onto question #2: "Do either the tornado or life exhibit an effect which is not found in a causal structure which is limited to merely law and chance?" First, let's examine the tornado. The answer is simply that the tornado contains both regularity (a vortex) as well as chance components such as magnitude, location, and chance arrangement of particles harnessed by the overarching laws of the system [which creates the vortex]. Regularities and periodicity is defined by law and the rest is left to chance. There is no reason to rule out chance and law, since there is no effect which is not defined by both law and chance. However, the effect that was used as an answer to question number one makes use of sequences which are correlated to a function. Since chance is partially defined as a lack of correlation, then that functional correlation negates chance on one level. Furthermore, the sequences are extremely improbable, especially when looking at longer proteins such as Titin (in which I have calculated a lower limit value of CSI) and multiple protein systems. Kairosfocus has pointed out many times that finding such systems through an unguided search would require vastly more than the number of bit operations which could have been performed given the age and size of the universe. So chance is ruled out on another level -- that of improbability. Next, we observe that the sequence in question is not defined by the category of causation known as law. Further explanation are here and here So, we see that life contains an effect which is not entailed in the cause *if we only look at law+chance as a cause.* So, those who state that life "emerges" from an interplay, of vast complexity, between law+chance are being literally illogical since they have abandoned one of the main rules of causation -- relating that which exists in an effect to that which exists in a cause -- upon which the laws of logic are built.CJYman
May 4, 2010
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kf, I have not accused you of name calling - can't figure out where you got that from. And I know what a strawman argument is, and choosing to discuss things with Stephen B and not you is not a strawman argument - it is not even an argument. I'll respond to Stephen as soon as I have some time.Aleta
May 4, 2010
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@StephenB "I hope that you would not want to be like the illogical epiphenominalists, who try to have it both ways by saying that minds are “different from” matter but, nevertheless “grounded in matter.” The law of non-contradiction rules out any such self-contradictory position. " What I personally find even more amusing is the epiphenomenalists, who reject that the mind has causal efficacy (i.e. everything being materialistically deterministic), and then expect the rest of us to take their word for it and accept their position as one reached via reasoning.above
May 4, 2010
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Aleta: You know or should know why a strawman argument is a fallacy: one sets up and tries to knock over a convenient caricature of an argument, then announce that one has defeated what one has ducked and explicitly or implicitly distorted. By failing to address the nature of cell based life in light of the digital coded information system embedded therein, you are playing at strawman tactics. And, you have still failed to address the issue on the merits, i.e your rhetoric is also distractive. (And indeed the strawman is a species of red herring.) Worse, you have now falsely accused me of namecalling. I have not merely said your argument was strawmannish, I have pointed out why, and on the strength of he case on the merits you have still not addressed. Could you kindly show us -- with empirically credible evidence, not just so stories -- how a von Neumann replicator can plausibly originate by chance and blind necessity in some still warm pond somewhere, or you have said nothing. And if instead, you want to imply that atoms etc are intelligent, you need to justify that in the teeth of the evidence of say statistical thermodynamics that heir behaviour can be credibly explained on chance plus mechanical necessity with a large statistical mass to play with. For instance, temperature is a measure of the average random kinetic or potential energy per degree of freedom per molecule or comparable particle. And the diffusion that grounds solid state electronics is based on statistical behaviour of microparticles. Etc etc. By contrast, the intelligent is seen in its capacity to "reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn." G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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– --Aleta: -“no one (except you, it seems) thinks that “emerge” means “happens without cause.” I can’t even imagine where you have gotten that idea. Can you provide some evidence that some scientist thinks that’s what emergence means?” Materialists think that mind “emerged” from matter. If mind comes from matter and is also substantially different from matter, then obviously mind appeared without a cause. If “mind” is not different from matter, then why use the word. I hope that you would not want to be like the illogical epiphenominalists, who try to have it both ways by saying that minds are “different from” matter but, nevertheless “grounded in matter.” The law of non-contradiction rules out any such self-contradictory position. ---“And I’ll agree that “anything in the effect was present in the cause” – That’s half the battle. The other half is in recognizing that the first cause must be a causeless cause. ---“what I am pointing out is that you have offered no reason why you think that life was not present in the causal beginning of the universe but tornadoes were. That’s what I asking you to differentiate between because that is a question you have not addressed.” I addressed in the first paragraph @47, but I will get at it from another angle. On the one hand, the tornado and the initial causes for the tornado are all physical. Thus, nothing totally different from the conditions is coming out of those conditions, meaning that law of causality is not violated. On the other hand, the law of causality would, indeed, be violated, if the physical laws themselves could be their own cause. According to the law of causality, which you now say you accept, [for the first time?] nothing can be its own cause, including physical laws—especially physical laws. Something outside those laws must cause them. If you accept the law of causality, then you must accept the proposition that a law requires a creator to fashion them. Thus, you can have the law of causality or you can have atheism, but you cannot have both. You have a choice to make.StephenB
May 4, 2010
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Aleta @52, kairosfocus,
kf writes, “Aleta: I think you are picking and choosing who you respond to. That is a species of strawman.”
I, and everyone else here, is free to pick and choose who we want to respond to, and what points we want to respond to. Calling the exercise of that freedom a “strawman” doesn’t even make sense.
I agree with Aleta. Some comments have many diverse points which would require a lot of effort to answer completely. You seem to imply kairosfocus, that you will specifically answer any question asked of you by anyone. Is that true?Toronto
May 4, 2010
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kf writes, "Aleta: I think you are picking and choosing who you respond to. That is a species of strawman." I, and everyone else here, is free to pick and choose who we want to respond to, and what points we want to respond to. Calling the exercise of that freedom a "strawman" doesn't even make sense.Aleta
May 4, 2010
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Aleta I think you are picking and choosing who you respond to. That is a species of strawman. In 44 above, I pointed out the implications of the known architecture and logico-mathematical requisites of self replicating entities [as is found in cell based life], after von Neumann. On inference to best explanation, codes, programs, algorithms, data structures and coordinated implementing machines have one known, routinely observed source. In addition, the implied sea of possible configurations is so vast that a universe of the observed scale working by chance + necessity only across its thermodynamically credible lifespan, would search a far less than astronomically small fraction of the space. That is, we have excellent reason to infer that chance processes and mechanically acting laws on their own are such that the configurations we see in cell based life would be empirically implausible, well beyond the implausibility bound. So, on inference to best explanation, we see intent and intelligence as the best explanation of the systems in life. Beyond that, the cosmos as a whole similarly shows multi- parameter fine-tuning to support C-chemistry cell based life. Beyond that we may have metaphysical debates in philosophy to our heart's content on where that mind is located and what is its ontological status. That is all well and interesting but is irrelevant to the scientific inference to design, and to the inference from the sign to the signified. Tornadoes are vortices reflective of atmospheric conditions under conditions fairly often met with on earth. They are an implication of the mechanical forces and circumstances of terrestrial planets with conditions as we see around us. So, they are written into the implications of those material factors. Codes, programs, algorithms, data structures and coordinated implementing machinery -- per implausibility bound -- are not. And so, unless the cause is adequate to initiate and sustain the effect, there will be no effect. That is the substance in SB's remark that no effect happens that is not contained in its cause. If you wish to overthrow that, you need to overthrow causality. And, that is far harder to do than to dismiss. And, finally, pardon a direct point: if you wish to dismiss causality, the very fact that you infer to an intelligent cause behind the strings of characters appearing next to SB's handle, shows your selective hyperskepticism, once your worldview is at stake on a point. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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Stephen writes, "Anything in the effect was present in the cause. Still, you had better huddle with your comrades. Although tornados exist potentially in the conditions that give rise to them, Darwinists think that they “emerge” without a cause. Thus, they allude to that as evidence that some effects do not need causes, and, under the circumstances, there is no logical reason why life cannot “emerge” from non-life. See how that works?" No Stephen, you are dead wrong - no one (except you, it seems) thinks that "emerge" means "happens without cause." I can't even imagine where you have gotten that idea. Can you provide some evidence that some scientist thinks that's what emergence means? And I'll agree that "anything in the effect was present in the cause" - what I am pointing out is that you have offered no reason why you think that life was not present in the causal beginning of the universe but tornadoes were. That's what I asking you to differentiate between because that is a question you have not addressed.Aleta
May 4, 2010
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---"Aleta: "how he [StephenB] knows that life and mind aren’t present in natural causes".... Natural causes regulate things as laws; unlike minds, they don't think about things, nor can they be creative and decide to do things differently. – "with what criteria and evidence does he differentiate between things that obviously are “present in natural causes”, such as solar systems or tornadoes, and those that aren’t." I don't "differentiate." Anything in the effect was present in the cause. Still, you had better huddle with your comrades. Although tornados exist potentially in the conditions that give rise to them, Darwinists think that they "emerge" without a cause. Thus, they allude to that as evidence that some effects do not need causes, and, under the circumstances, there is no logical reason why life cannot "emerge" from non-life. See how that works?StephenB
May 4, 2010
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---Aleta: "I will note that in a previous thread even though Stephen repeatedly asserted the above statements about causation, he never explained how he knows that life and mind aren’t present in natural causes – with what criteria and evidence does he differentiate between things that obviously are “present in natural causes”, such as solar systems or tornadoes, and those that aren’t. As far as I recall, he just keeps asserting the same things without explaining further." Since you were not paying attention during that dialogue, I doubt that you will pay attention now. Anyway, here goes. The law of causality is not something that is proven by evidence; it is a non-negotiable principle of right reason with which to interpret evidence, as is the law of non-contradiction. One cannot prove first principles because first principles are the things used for proof. We don't reason TO them; we reason FROM them. (Those of us who choose to reason, I should say). Of course, atheist/materialist/Darwinists do not even know what I am talking about [nor are they typically interested in learning about it] because they have been steeped in and dedicated to materialist ideology. They have been insulated from the principles of right reason by a culture dedicated to anti-intellectualism. Science, which is a search for causes, depends on the law of causality. Nevertheless, Darwinists, who think that effects can and do occur without causes, want to dialogue with us about tracking down possible causes of the universe. That would be like trying to solve a murder with someone who thinks that murders can occur without murderers.StephenB
May 4, 2010
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PS: If you are interested [IYI] onlookers, here is how I draw out the WCT approach to worldview synthesis. A key relevance of this is that scientific research programmes, as Lakatos pointed out, have worldview-embedded cores, with belts of auxiliary ideas, concepts and constructs that more directly engage empirical reality. Those belts in part often armour the core of a research programme from the otherwise telling blows of empirical reality. In this case, IYI, we need to ask ourselves some searching questions on the origin of digital codes, digital programs, algorithms, data structures and the like, then extend this to the case of entities that are self replicating a la von Neumann. (And BTW, IYI, one of the many strawman arguments against Paley is the one that neglects to mention that in Ch 2 of his key essay [which was the foil for Darwin's theorising and speculations . . . ], he addresses the case of self replicating watches, and draws out how they are inherently more complex and functi0nally specific than the well known ordinary kind. [In recent months I have been learning that a LOT of the exchanges across time have been won by secularists and materialists through strawman tactics, up to and including the Inherit the Wind slanderous stereotypes of Secretary of State Bryan and co. That means that Toronto's strawmen above and similar errors in the Weak Argument Correctives -- notice how studiously evo mat advocates like to whistle by the graveyard in the dark. Well, this J'can duppy says: "BOO!" -- are not to be shrugged off as minor problems.]) PPPS: I need to underscore that not all inferring is properly reasonable. And, when one consistently violates or dismisses first and self evident principles of reasoning, one is being utterly irrational. So much so that though one is inferring one is hardly reasoning. --> I seem to have had a mispost so this is try 2 pardonkairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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kairosfocus @44, I have been wrong about many things in my life and I may be wrong here. Every time I have been taught something it was the result of patience and focused guidance. In order for me to understand you, you will have to focus on the specific point in contention. When a beginner software student wants to know how to write a comment, it does no good to explain how a linker works. You are not focusing on the point here. The point is that I, an atheist, have been charged with the crime of not having the ability to reason. Who does have the ability to reason? According to your side of the debate, your side does. That is the problem. A blind, deaf man left in a jungle can reason. He smells some flowers, slowly moves in that direction, crushes some flowers in his hand and then puts his hand on the ground. As the insects climb up into his hand, he eats them. He has reasoned this out by himself despite not having an education or knowing anything about first causes. You are focusing on the lower level processes of a logic toolbox instead of the higher level of reasoning.Toronto
May 4, 2010
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above @43,
“he contends that a priori statements have no place in reasoning” That is a lie. Never did I make such absurd claim. For you to extrapolate that from what I actually said is ridiculous. I’m sorry.
above @13,
But unfortunately for them they often do not reason. Instead they hold materialism as a priori
Here is the part of your statement we should focus on: "..they often do not reason. Instead.." Whatever follows "Instead" is the thing that is done instead of reasoning. Here is an equivalent statement: "..they often do not play music. Instead they perform bluegrass" While you may not have meant that, do you see why I would think that based on what you have written? I hope you understand why I am firm on addressing this statement and some from StephenB. You take the Evo side and with one brushstroke paint us a group that not only is wrong, but incapable of coming to conclusions that are so obvious to you, in effect claiming there is something wrong with us. There is nothing wrong with us at all that treating us as equals wouldn't fix. There wouldn't be name-calling, strawmen, or attempts at adult-child lecturing. What do you say?Toronto
May 4, 2010
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Toronto: I see your:
There is nothing wrong with using “a priori” knowledge when you reason. According to “above” however, if you use “a priori” statements as evidence, you are not reasoning.
Strawman, resting on an agenda-serving equivocation. Do you not see the question-begging assumption inserted in this? Or, how you have misinterpreted and thus twisted the words of others? There is a big difference between self-evident first principles of reasoning and assertions of a priori knowledge that in effect beg the question. A real SET is such that so soon as one denies it, one reduces him or her self to absurdity, i.e. once we understand what it says based on our experience of the world as reasoning persons, we see that it is not only true but must be true. That is, one immediately knows or should immediately know the absurdity of attempted denial. For instance we can try Royce's "error exists." (These days, I often call this warranted credible truth no 1.) We understand what errors are, starting from even before our first classroom days. We will easily see that errors are real. But also on reasoning we see that if we try to deny WCT 1, we must give an instance of it. So, "error exists" is undeniably true. But, the sort of a priori evolutionary materialism above -- despite Lewontin's [fallaciously] confident declaration of how it is "self-evident" to most leading practitioners of science -- is utterly different from this. We do not directly know the deep past based on experience or observation. Indeed it is inherently unobservable. We may only examine traces in the present and reconstruct more or less possible or plausible causal explanations. But such -- as I pointed out yesterday -- is at most an exercise in pre-historical inference to best explanation across competing possible causes. Such competitive explanation arguments must cover the range of reasonable possibilities, and must compare them on adequacy relative to material facts, logico-mathematical and dynamic coherence and explanatory power: elegantly simple i.e. neither simplistic nor an ad hoc patchwork. As ISCID aptly puts it:
An inference to the best explanation, also known as abduction, is a method of reasoning employed in the sciences in which scientists elect that hypothesis which would, if true, best explain the relevant evidence. Recent work in the philosophy of science has shown that those hypotheses that qualify as “best” typically provide simple, coherent, and causally adequate explanations of the evidence or phenomena in question.
Similarly [and with reference to Aleta], that which begins to exist -- say, Q -- has a causally sufficient reason. That is, there must be some cluster of circumstances and forces P that on coming into existence are sufficient for the emergence of that thing Q. Within P, there often are specific conditions p1, p2, . . . pn, that are necessary. Where P is met Q WILL happen or be sustained. Where one or more of p1, p2, . . . pn are absent, Q CANNOT begin, or cannot be sustained. For instance, oxidiser, heat and fuel are each necessary and jointly sufficient to initiate and/or sustain a fire. In the key cases in view, origin of life and body plan level biodiversity, we know that we are dealing with self-replicating systems based on digital codes [AGCT etc], and co-ordinatred processing of such codes in molecular nanomachines in the cell and in the developing body. Such -- per von Neuman et al -- includes:
(i) an underlying code to record/store the required information and to guide procedures for using it, (ii) a coded blueprint/tape record of such specifications and (explicit or implicit) instructions, together with (iii) a tape reader [[called “the constructor” by von Neumann] that reads and interprets the coded specifications and associated instructions, and (iv) implementing machines (and associated organisation and procedures) to carry out the specified replication (including that of the constructor itself); backed up by (v) either: (1) a pre-existing reservoir of required parts and energy sources, or (2) associated “metabolic” machines carrying out activities that provide required specific materials and forms of energy by using the generic resources in the surrounding environment.
In this context, parts (ii), (iii) and (iv) are each necessary for and together are jointly sufficient to implement a self-replicating von Neumann universal constructor. That is, we see here an irreducibly complex set of core components that must all be present in a properly organised fashion for a successful self-replicator to exist. [[Take just one core part out, and function ceases: the replicator is irreducibly complex (IC).]. This irreducible complexity is compounded by the requirement (i) for codes, requiring organised symbols and rules to specify both steps to take and formats for storing information, and (v) for appropriate material resources and energy sources. Immediately, we are looking at islands of organised function for both the machinery and the information in the wider sea of possible (but mostly non-functional) configurations. In short, outside such functionally specific -- thus, isolated -- information-rich target zones, want of correct components and/or of proper organisation and/or co-ordination will block function from emerging or being sustained. So, once the set of possible configurations is large enough and the islands of function are credibly sufficiently specific/isolated, it is unreasonable to expect such function to arise from chance, or from chance circumstances driving blind natural forces under the known laws of nature. But, of course -- while we do not yet have the capacity to build such a universal constructor -- we know the routinely observed source of its components and of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information -- let's call this FSCOI -- intelligence. And such intelligence or purposeful agency is a matter of our routine experience and observation. Thus, absent a question-begging Lewontinian a priori commitment to materialism, we know the causally sufficient explanation for the sort of entity we are discussing: intelligence. Such is explanatorily adequate and causally sufficient. Ans, as for Aleta's question on what is in the effect being in the cause, the required complex information is the classic example of this. A mind is causally adequate to create complex, functionally specific information, but chance plus necessity acting without mind, have no such credible capacity, absent a priori question begging. (This is why Wm A Dembski and Marks have put up the issue of active information: it is unreasonable to expect that information of the degree of complexity we have in mind, emerges by chance -- undirected -- contingency, on issues addressed in Abel's 2009 paper on the universal plausibility bound. These grounds are the same ones that underlie the statistical form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.) So, Toreonto, we can see the vast difference between a genuine self evident first principle, which we have every reason to confidently accept as true on pain of absurdity, and question begging assertions of materialism that thrive on censoring out otherwise credible alternative possible explanations, thus turning inference to best explanation into attempted inference to best MATERIALISTIC explanation. Question-begging closed mindedness is irrational and cannot properly be equated to a priori knowledge or even to an inferred best explanation. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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@Toronto "he contends that a priori statements have no place in reasoning" That is a lie. Never did I make such absurd claim. For you to extrapolate that from what I actually said is ridiculous. I'm sorry. Furthemore, lewotnin's quote, which Kairosfocus presented, is exactly what I had in mind.above
May 3, 2010
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To Toronto: Stephen writes, "Further still, if you are an atheist, believing that life can come from non life and that mind can come from matter, you reject the corollary to the law of causation, which states that nothing can be in the effect, which was not first in the cause." I will note that in a previous thread even though Stephen repeatedly asserted the above statements about causation, he never explained how he knows that life and mind aren't present in natural causes - with what criteria and evidence does he differentiate between things that obviously are "present in natural causes", such as solar systems or tornadoes, and those that aren't. As far as I recall, he just keeps asserting the same things without explaining further.Aleta
May 3, 2010
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StephenB @38,
You have not provided a rational answer to the argument for a finely-tuned universe.
The Evo position is that we, (and all life forms), are fine-tuned to the universe. You present as ..evidence.. that we are ..not.. fine-tuned to the universe, the ..fact.. that the universe is fine-tuned to us. That ..is.. the debate between our sides. Imagine a transistor biased to half of VCC. It doesn't know what the power-supply voltage is but it will always bias itself to half of whatever that value is. Does the power supply fine-tune its voltage so that the emitter can sit exactly at half the voltage? No, it doesn't have to. It is the circuit that adapts to the value of the power supply voltage. In other words, the transistor has fine-tuned itself to the power supply, not the other way around.Toronto
May 3, 2010
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Phaedros @37, As odd as this may sound, while I disagree with your conclusion, I have to say that I can't fault your reasoning. I'll have to think about this. Thanks.Toronto
May 3, 2010
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kairosfocus @32, Hi kairosfocus, above said:
But unfortunately for them they often do not reason. Instead they hold materialism as a priori
If instead he had said, "But unfortunately, ..when.. they reason, they hold materialism as a priori", I would have been fine with that but he contends that a priori statements have no place in reasoning. There is nothing wrong with using "a priori" knowledge when you reason. According to "above" however, if you use "a priori" statements as evidence, you are not reasoning. I have posted a comment to StephenB regarding the Bruce Waltke thread where he said that atheists "cannot" evaluate evidence. In what way can our side engage yours if you believe we don't/cannot reason. If I believed that your side could not reason, I wouldn't spend any time here.Toronto
May 3, 2010
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---Toronto: "How is it possible for You have presumed, that because I have come to the conclusion that there is no God, I do not believe in the principles of right reason." I based my assessment on the fact that I have never met an atheist who acknowledges the law of causation. Also, I base it on the fact that, when confronted with the point, you declined to affirm that law yourself. If you accepted it, you would have immediately seized on that fact rather than ask me another question. Further, if you are an atheist, you reject the first cause argument which derives from the law of causation. Further still, if you are an atheist, believing that life can come from non life and that mind can come from matter, you reject the corollary to the law of causation, which states that nothing can be in the effect, which was not first in the cause. How many other examples do you need? ---"What other evidence, besides the fact that I am an atheist, do you have to support your assertion that I cannot evaluate evidence?" You have not provided a rational answer to the argument for a finely-tuned universe.StephenB
May 3, 2010
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Toronto- You can reason because you utilize the principles of reason, but fail to recognize both where those principles come from and what there necessary implications are. In order to deny their necessary outcomes you have to deny reason.Phaedros
May 3, 2010
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Steve Been busy elsewhere . . .kairosfocus
May 3, 2010
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StephenB @30,
Neither above nor myself stated that you “cannot” reason properly. We both held that you choose not to reason. There is a big difference.
From Bruce Waltke And The Scientific Orthodoxy:
StephenB 04/14/2010 3:42 am —seversky: “You are saying that if reason or evidence were to be found in conflict with those beliefs, the latter would prevail in all cases, regardless.” I think you may be missing the point. I am not complaining at the moment about agnostics or atheists, who do not believe in the Bible and therefore have nothing to reconcile. Indeed, atheists and agnostics do not even believe in the principles of right reason, which means that they have no standard by which to evalute evidence in the first place.
How is it possible for me to reason, if according to your own words, I cannot evaluate evidence? You have presumed, that because I have come to the conclusion that there is no God, I do not believe in the principles of right reason. What other evidence, besides the fact that I am an atheist, do you have to support your assertion that I cannot evaluate evidence?Toronto
May 3, 2010
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kairosfocus, welcome back!StephenB
May 3, 2010
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PS: Hi Steve!kairosfocus
May 3, 2010
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Toronto: Kindly, read carefully:
But unfortunately for them they often do not reason. Instead they hold materialism as a priori
Compare the infamous Lewontin remarks of 1997: _____________________ >> It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot [and why not, Mr Lewontin?] allow a Divine Foot in the door. [“Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added.] >> _____________________ Clearly, "often," evolutionary materialists are indulging in a priori imposition of materialism, and have begged the question that the only -- indeed, routinely -- observed source of functionally specific complex information is intelligence. So, they have set out to block the empirically anchored inference from FSCI in life and in major body plans to evident design of same. Not on scientific facts, but on philosophical question begging. Worse, when issues have been argued many many times at UD, we find a habitual, typical pattern of such a priorism, and then refusal to accept first principles of reasoning when they point where materialists do not want to go. Not to mention refusal to accept that we do have strong evidence that FSCI is routinely produced by intelligence, and has only been OBSERVED to come form such intelligence. As this very post and thread substantiate among many millions of cases. This has happened in thread after thread, so "often" is precisely correct. Why not show us how you will be an exception? G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 3, 2010
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---Just Thinking: "About this atheism and a priori belief discussions, how would Kant address this? I ask because I was just looking at a video series on his thought." Kant made a serious error that disqualifies him as a dependable consultant on these matters. Google "Little Errors In The Beginning," by Mortimer J. Adler.StephenB
May 3, 2010
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---"“I, Toronto, an atheist, come to my conclusions through a process of reasoning and don’t hold materialism as being true “a priori”. If you do not honor law of causality, you are not arriving at your conclusions through the reasoning process since, as I have pointed out several times, the law of causality is an necessary part of that process. You may be using "a" process {I have no idea what it could be] but it is not the reasoning process. “Since I am an atheist, in your eyes [above] and those of StephenB, I am already incapable of reason because I have reached a different conclusion” Neither above nor myself stated that you "cannot" reason properly. We both held that you choose not to reason. There is a big difference. In keeping with that point, you should, be able to use the reasoning process to perceive that above is making an argument that is compatible with but different from my argument: He is pointing out that since you cannot provide any evidence to support your notion that naturalistic forces can create information or all life as we know it, you must be operating from a position of faith and not reason. He is right, of course. I am arguing that because you do not honor the law of causality, you cannot interpret evidence in a reasonble way. I am also right. In effect, you are, as above has pointed out, conflating the two arguments into one. That in itself is a logical error. If you had not tried to pull in my name to argue against above's position, you would have been far better off. As it stands, you have failed to address either argument.StephenB
May 3, 2010
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