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Progressives, Fascism, and the Will to Power

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So-called progressives are feeling pretty cocky nowadays, which is not surprising after they achieved a decisive victory on one of their key policy goals when the United States Supreme Court mandated that every state must adjust its laws to pretend that people of the same sex can marry one another.  Of course, it is the case and will always be the case that a man cannot marry another man any more than he can marry his left shoe.  Marriage is not an infinitely malleable concept; it has an irreducible essence, and that essence is defined by the mutually complementary design of male and female bodies.  Now the Supreme Court tells us we must, insofar as our civil laws are concerned, pretend that relationships that do not partake of that essence in fact do.  Far from tainting the victory, however, the in-the-teeth-of-objective-reality quality of it all serves to emphasize the vast scope of the progressives’ triumph.  They have forced every state in the union to pretend to deny reality itself.  That is an impressive political victory.

Understandably, many progressives must feel their power is ascendant and will remain so, and some are succumbing to the temptation of ascendancy – the temptation to speak and act as if one’s political opponents are powerless and their concerns are therefore irrelevant and need not be acknowledged, far less taken seriously.  Progressives are beginning to drop all pretense that to them the ideals of Enlightenment liberalism such as the right to free speech and freedom of conscious were ever anything but useful tools for accomplishing their goals when classical liberals (who, ironically, are called “conservatives” in the United States) were ascendant.  They have played according to the formula Frank Herbert described in Children of Dune:

When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.

The progressive call for “tolerance” for the “other” we heard for so many years was their way of asking for freedom according to the principles of classical liberals.  But now that progressives are politically ascendant, they are no longer calling for tolerance for the other.  Instead they are determined to quash all dissent and destroy those who refuse to conform, because progressives are fascists at bottom, and arraying the coercive force of government against their political opponents to enforce conformity is according to their fascist principles.  When they were weak, “tolerance and diversity!”  Now that they are strong, “Conform or be crushed under the heel of government.”  See here, here and here as merely the latest examples.

What does this have to do with origins?  Everything of course.  Classical liberalism was based on the premises and conclusions of natural law philosophy, as perhaps most famously articulated in the United States’ Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.  We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It should be obvious that the superstructure of natural law rested on a theistic, specifically a Christian, foundation.  [Yes, a handful of the founders were Deists; the overwhelming majority of them were orthodox Christians.]  Classical liberals believed in God; they believed in a transcendent morality instituted by God; they believed that rights are not given by men to other men, but each man, as an image bearer of God, is endowed with inalienable rights by God.

These ideas have logical consequences.  Among these consequences are the belief that every human being has inherent dignity as an image bearer of God; that all persons have equal moral standing and thus a right to the twin freedoms of expression and conscience.  On the other side of the ledger, classical liberals had a keen sense of the doctrine of original sin, the fallenness of man, and his propensity for error, all of which led them to tolerate divergent political views and place their trust in the marketplace of ideas instead of a perpetual official political orthodoxy.

Progressives, on the other hand, are overwhelmingly secular and materialist in their outlook.  These ideas also have consequences, including (1) God does not exist; (2) good and evil do not exist as objective transcendent ontological categories; (3) God, who does not exist, cannot endow men with inalienable rights; and (4) men are not image bearers of a non-existent God; they are jumped up hairless apes with delusions of superiority over other animals.

If there is no good and evil and no God-endowed rights, by what standard does the progressive define the eponymous “progress” they claim to want to achieve?  Certainly there is no transcendent standard.  “We have to give up on the idea that there are unconditional, transcultural moral obligations, obligations rooted in an unchanging, ahistorical human nature,” says progressive hero Richard Rorty.

What then?  The answer is that progressives want what that want.  Theirs is a political philosophy bound by nothing and defined by their unbounded will to power.  Of course, none of this is new.  In Book X of The Laws Plato describes them:

In the first place, my dear friend, these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others, and not in legal subjection to them.

Might makes right.  Progressives want what they want, and they will crush those who oppose their will to power.  And it is not enough to achieve their policy objectives.  Dissent is not allowed.  Progressive Tanya Cohen writes:

it’s just common sense that freedom of speech doesn’t give anyone the right to offend, insult, humiliate, intimidate, vilify, incite hatred or violence, be impolite or uncivil, disrespect, oppose human rights, spread lies or misinformation, argue against the common good, or promote ideas which have no place in society.

And who decides what is the “common good” and “ideas that have no place in society”?  Why Tanya Cohen and her friends of course.

Countless times on these pages Progressives have argued that good and evil do not exist as objective categories.  Instead, they insist that good is defined by the consensus of a society.  Yet even this limit is a dodge.  Every time the people have voted on the “right” to same-sex marriage they have rejected it by fairly wide margins.  It is not the law because there is a societal consensus that it is right.  It is the law because five members of a nine-member committee of lawyers decided they have the power to impose it on the rest of us and by God they are going to use that power.  This is about as anti-democratic as it is possible to be.  Yet progressives celebrate the decision.  Why?  Not because the outcome is “legitimate” even by their own standards of legitimacy (i.e., societal consensus), but because that is what they want, and they don’t care how they get what they want so long as they get it.

What is to be done?  I am not sure.  It seems to me that the clash of worldviews has reached a point where further attempts to reason with one another may be useless.  The two camps no longer speak or even understand the other camp’s moral language.  How can I reason with someone who thinks it is morally acceptable violently to dismember a baby and sell her body parts to the highest bidder?  If that is not self-evidently monstrous and evil, what can I say that would make its monstrousness and evilness apparent?  I have no idea.

When Justice Kennedy says that the conception of marriage that was accepted by everyone everywhere in the history of the world until ten minutes ago is based on nothing but bigotry and prejudice, what can be said to dissuade him from such an absurd idea?  Again, I have no idea.

I do have an idea, however, that perhaps it is time to read more deeply into the Declaration:

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Comments
Silver Asiatic: King lived a double life. Great argument!!Zachriel
August 4, 2015
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A striking kinship between Margaret Sanger's mission and certain activities ...
King lived a double life. During the day, he would speak to large crowds, quoting Scripture and invoking God’s will, and at night he frequently had sex with women from the audience. “King’s habits of sexual adventure had been well established by the time he was married,” says Michael Eric Dyson of Georgetown University, a King admirer. He notes that King often “told lewd jokes,” “shared women with friends,” and was “sexually reckless.” According to King biographer Taylor Branch, during a long party on the night of January 6 and 7, 1964, an FBI bugging device recorded King’s “distinctive voice ring out above others with pulsating abandon, saying, “˜I’m f***ing for God!’” Sex with single and married women continued after King married, and on the night before his death, King had two adulterous trysts. His first rendezvous was at a woman’s house, the second in a hotel room. The source for this was his best friend and second-in-command, Ralph Abernathy, who noted that the second woman was “a member of the Kentucky legislature,” now known to be Georgia Davis Powers.
There's a lot more to this -- and I'm sorry for the vulgarity from the minister (moderators, feel free to edit).Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2015
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kairosfocus: it seems to me that hierarchy is not the heart of the definition of socialism. The socialism of the fascists was based on national solidarity and paternalism, not egalitarian principles. Under fascism, national exceptionalism and dictatorship were the rule. Andre: It takes a special kind of stupid to defend Margaret Sanger.
Martin Luther King Jr: There is a striking kinship between our movement and Margaret Sanger’s early efforts. She, like we, saw the horrifying conditions of ghetto life. Like we, she knew that all of society is poisoned by cancerous slums. Like we, she was a direct actionist – a nonviolent resister. She was willing to accept scorn and abuse until the truth she saw was revealed to the millions. At the turn of the century she went into the slums and set up a birth control clinic, and for this deed she went to jail because she was violating an unjust law. Yet the years have justified her actions.
Andre: Really it does, perhaps think about your saying “I like humans” and consider how many have been murdered because of her. You do realize that Sanger was against abortion?Zachriel
August 4, 2015
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Zachriel You truly are an entertainer, a misguided one but entertaining none the less... P.S. It takes a special kind of stupid to defend Margaret Sanger. Really it does, perhaps think about your saying "I like humans" and consider how many have been murdered because of her. Perhaps its time to either change your view or come to the realization that you don't really like people very much if you endorse their butchering.Andre
August 4, 2015
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I see freedom of speech hypocrite Nick Matzke has failed to answer the questions posed to him or defend himself from the accusation levied at him. I guess his silence validates the truth?Andre
August 4, 2015
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Started reading Copleston's A History of Philosophy. He almost immediately begins with the Greek's recognition of the Will to Power.Mung
August 3, 2015
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The Left and the Right do not meet at the Center, rather they both meet at Tyranny.Mung
August 3, 2015
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Z, The self-identification of the Left is what is being described; that has very little to do with the substantial issue as to what the NSDAP were. Did you take time to look at the posters, could you please enlighten us about them i/l/o the full expansion of NSDAP? So far you acknowledge that socialist elements were involved in the platform and actions of NSDAP. A beginning. And, it seems to me that hierarchy is not the heart of the definition of socialism. Collins Dictionary has a good summary definition as was given above:
socialism n 1. (Economics) an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels. Compare capitalism 2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system 3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) (in Leninist theory) a transitional stage after the proletarian revolution in the development of a society from capitalism to communism: characterized by the distribution of income according to work rather than need Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003 capitalism n 1. (Economics) Also called: free enterprise or private enterprise an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, characterized by the freedom of capitalists to operate or manage their property for profit in competitive conditions. Compare socialism1 Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
Economic statism, in the name of the people but in the hands of the state controlled by the party. Back that up with secret police and iron control, and de facto, state ownership under the party elite. Precisely what Fascism did under both Hitler and Mussolini as already indicated. Hannan gives a good summmary on the difference with Lenin and Stalin, as was already cited:
Hitler told Hermann Rauschning, a Prussian who briefly worked for the Nazis before rejecting them and fleeing the country, that he had admired much of the thinking of the revolutionaries he had known as a young man; but he felt that they had been talkers, not doers. “I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun,” he boasted, adding that “the whole of National Socialism” was “based on Marx”. Marx’s error, Hitler believed, had been to foster class war instead of national unity – to set workers against industrialists instead of conscripting both groups into a corporatist order. His aim, he told his economic adviser, Otto Wagener, was to “convert the German Volk to socialism without simply killing off the old individualists” – by which he meant the bankers and factory owners who could, he thought, serve socialism better by generating revenue for the state. “What Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism failed to accomplish,” he told Wagener, “we shall be in a position to achieve.”
There is more above, which I do not think you have noted and responded to. Indeed, von Mises' summary is that in effect socialism dominated the intellectual climate in the first half of C20, especially in Europe. Even the Conservatives were implicitly socialist in their views on where things wee headed. That too is a part of the picture. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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Zac@210 "While Sanger expressed racist views, she didn’t tolerate racial bigotry." You really are a special kind of stupid - the kind that Sanger would obviously sterilize out of the kindness of her heart...Heartlander
August 3, 2015
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Heartlander: Does this sound totalitarian in any way?
f. to give certain dysgenic groups in our population their choice of segregation or sterilization.
Forced segregation or sterilization is beyond reasonable government authority — even for those who are profoundly mentally disabled. Sanger did advocate full autonomy for the able-minded, and objected to both euthanasia and abortion. While Sanger expressed racist views, she didn't tolerate racial bigotry. She worked to provide birth control in African American communities, and her work with minorities won the approval of W. E. B. Du Bois, and later, Martin Luther King Jr.Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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kairosfocus: "So total is the cultural victory of the modern Left ... " Per your own previous statements, you consider the left-right dichotomy to be "busted, plain and simple", so presumably, your cut-and-paste job is incoherent nonsense. Fascism did incorporate some aspects of socialism, but their goals were hierarchical, hence, they are on the political right. We've provided citations from primary sources, secondary sources, and commonplace sources, then and now. As the terms are in wide currency, and have a reasonably consistent meaning, it is your understanding that is clearly in error.Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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Zac@206 Does this sound totalitarian in any way?:
A Plan for Peace by MARGARET SANGER First, put into action President Wilson's fourteen points, upon which terms Germany and Austria surrendered to the Allies in 1918. Second, have Congress set up a special department for the study of population problems and appoint a Parliament of Population, the directors representing the various branches of science: this body to direct and control the population through birth rates and immigration, and to direct its distribution over the country according to national needs consistent with taste, fitness and interest of individuals. The main objects of the Population Congress would be: a. to raise the level and increase the general intelligence of population. b. to increase the population slowly by keeping the birth rate at its present level of fifteen per thousand, decreasing the death rate below its present mark of 11 per thousand. c. to keep the doors of immigration closed to the entrance of certain aliens whose condition is known to be detrimental to the stamina of the race, such as feebleminded, idiots, morons, insane, syphilitic, epileptic, criminal, professional prostitutes, and others in this class barred by the immigration laws of 1924. d. to apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is tainted, or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring. e. to insure the country against future burdens of maintenance for numerous offspring as may be born of feebleminded parents, by pensioning all persons with transmissible disease who voluntarily consent to sterilization. f. to give certain dysgenic groups in our population their choice of segregation or sterilization. g. to apportion farm lands and homesteads for these segregated persons where they would be taught to work under competent instructors for the period of their entire lives. The first step would thus be to control the intake and output of morons, mental defectives, epileptics. The second step would be to take an inventory of the secondary group such as illiterates, paupers, unemployables, criminals, prostitutes, dope-fiends; classify them in special departments under government medical protection, and segregate them on farms and open spaces as long as necessary for the strengthening and development of moral conduct. Having corralled this enormous part of our population and placed it on a basis of health instead of punishment, it is safe to say that fifteen or twenty millions of our population would then be organized into soldiers of defense---defending the unborn against their own disabilities. The third step would be to give special attention to the mothers' health, to see that women who are suffering from tuberculosis, heart or kidney disease, toxic goitre, gonorrhea, or any disease where the condition of pregnancy disturbs their health are placed under public health nurses to instruct them in practical, scientific methods of contraception in order to safeguard their lives---thus reducing maternal mortality. The above steps may seem to place emphasis on a health program instead of on tariffs, moratoriums and debts, but I believe that national health is the first essential factor in any program for universal peace. With the future citizen safeguarded from hereditary taints, with five million mental and moral degenerates segregated, with ten million women and ten million children receiving adequate care, we could then turn our attention to the basic needs for international peace. There would then be a definite effort to make population increase slowly and at a specified rate, in order to accommodate and adjust increasing numbers to the best social and economic system. In the meantime we should organize and join an International League of Low Birth Rate Nations to secure and maintain World Peace.
The following (A Plan for Peace, Margaret Sanger) was published in Birth Control Review April 1932, pp. 107-108.Heartlander
August 3, 2015
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Z, Again, the decisive issue is the facts. As you seem to have not read it, let me again clip an article from 179 above -- and do click the link and read the posters and their translation into English; as just one relevant case: _____________ http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100260720/whenever-you-mention-fascisms-socialist-roots-left-wingers-become-incandescent-why/ >>Leftists become incandescent when reminded of the socialist roots of Nazism By Daniel Hannan Politics Last updated: February 25th, 2014 On 16 June 1941, as Hitler readied his forces for Operation Barbarossa, Josef Goebbels looked forward to the new order that the Nazis would impose on a conquered Russia. There would be no come-back, he wrote, for capitalists nor priests nor Tsars. Rather, in the place of debased, Jewish Bolshevism, the Wehrmacht would deliver “der echte Sozialismus”: real socialism. Goebbels never doubted that he was a socialist. He understood Nazism to be a better and more plausible form of socialism than that propagated by Lenin. Instead of spreading itself across different nations, it would operate within the unit of the Volk. So total is the cultural victory of the modern Left that the merely to recount this fact is jarring. But few at the time would have found it especially contentious. As George Watson put it in The Lost Literature of Socialism: It is now clear beyond all reasonable doubt that Hitler and his associates believed they were socialists, and that others, including democratic socialists, thought so too. The clue is in the name. Subsequent generations of Leftists have tried to explain away the awkward nomenclature of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party as either a cynical PR stunt or an embarrassing coincidence. In fact, the name meant what it said. Hitler told Hermann Rauschning, a Prussian who briefly worked for the Nazis before rejecting them and fleeing the country, that he had admired much of the thinking of the revolutionaries he had known as a young man; but he felt that they had been talkers, not doers. “I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun,” he boasted, adding that “the whole of National Socialism” was “based on Marx”. Marx’s error, Hitler believed, had been to foster class war instead of national unity – to set workers against industrialists instead of conscripting both groups into a corporatist order. His aim, he told his economic adviser, Otto Wagener, was to “convert the German Volk to socialism without simply killing off the old individualists” – by which he meant the bankers and factory owners who could, he thought, serve socialism better by generating revenue for the state. “What Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism failed to accomplish,” he told Wagener, “we shall be in a position to achieve.” . . . . The idea that Nazism is a more extreme form of conservatism has insinuated its way into popular culture. You hear it, not only when spotty students yell “fascist” at Tories, but when pundits talk of revolutionary anti-capitalist parties, such as the BNP and Golden Dawn, as “far Right”. What is it based on, this connection? Little beyond a jejune sense that Left-wing means compassionate and Right-wing means nasty and fascists are nasty. When written down like that, the notion sounds idiotic, but think of the groups around the world that the BBC, for example, calls “Right-wing”: the Taliban, who want communal ownership of goods; the Iranian revolutionaries, who abolished the monarchy, seized industries and destroyed the middle class; Vladimir Zhirinovsky, who pined for Stalinism. The “Nazis-were-far-Right” shtick is a symptom of the wider notion that “Right-wing” is a synonym for “baddie”. One of my constituents once complained to the Beeb about a report on the repression of Mexico’s indigenous peoples, in which the government was labelled Right-wing. The governing party, he pointed out, was a member of the Socialist International and, again, the give-away was in its name: Institutional Revolutionary Party. The BBC’s response was priceless. Yes, it accepted that the party was socialist, “but what our correspondent was trying to get across was that it is authoritarian”. In fact, authoritarianism was the common feature of socialists of both National and Leninist varieties, who rushed to stick each other in prison camps or before firing squads. Each faction loathed the other as heretical, but both scorned free-market individualists as beyond redemption. Their battle was all the fiercer, as Hayek pointed out in 1944, because it was a battle between brothers. Authoritarianism – or, to give it a less loaded name, the belief that state compulsion is justified in pursuit of a higher goal, such as scientific progress or greater equality – was traditionally a characteristic of the social democrats as much as of the revolutionaries . . . . There are idiots who discredit every cause, of course, but most people on the Left are sincere in their stated commitment to human rights, personal dignity and pluralism. My beef with many (not all) Leftists is a simpler one. By refusing to return the compliment, by assuming a moral superiority, they make political dialogue almost impossible. Using the soubriquet “Right-wing” to mean “something undesirable” is a small but important example. Next time you hear Leftists use the word fascist as a general insult, gently point out the difference between what they like to imagine the NSDAP stood for and what it actually proclaimed.>> _____________ In short, I am not exactly speaking without reasons. Again, start with the name of the Nazi party spelled out and its implications. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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kairosfocus: facts were put on the table to back my concerns. No simple dichotomy can encapsulate the wide variety of political positions people hold; nonetheless, the terms are still in wide currency, and the definitions provided are consistent with standard usage, both ordinary and scholarly. Nor does some ambiguity render the terms incoherent. Rather, it is your understanding of the terms that leads you to object to why the vast majority of scholars place fascism on the political right. Heartlander: Progressivism and fascism share the totalitarian belief that with the proper amount of tinkering, social engineers will be able to realize the utopian dream of establishing a nation where perfect equality reigns. While many progressives consider government an important mechanism of effecting social change, most progressives work through the democratic system. And while progressives generally have egalitarian aims, most are not extremists in terms of equality. Speaking out for safe work environments is hardly totalitarian. kairosfocus: Likewise, end justifies means amorality raises the same issue of grounding OUGHT that still stands unanswered from your side after so long. "Side"? The ends don't justify the means because the means largely determine the ends.Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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Z, BTW, if the elitism/equality criterion fails the test of the real outcome of claimed equality . . . creation of an oppressive party elite, that shows that the criterion fails. Likewise, end justifies means amorality raises the same issue of grounding OUGHT that still stands unanswered from your side after so long. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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Because progressivism embraces the ideal of nationalism and touts the so-called “Third Way” between capitalism and communism, its pedigree is closer to fascism than to communism. Progressivism and fascism share the totalitarian belief that with the proper amount of tinkering, social engineers will be able to realize the utopian dream of establishing a nation where perfect equality reigns. This mindset accounts for the support that the early progressives gave to eugenics, whose ultimate aim was the creation of a pure race, a “New Man” – not unlike the Nazi “Aryan” ideal. Such a project, of course, could only be overseen and carried out by a wise and omniscient leadership, an intellectual elite endowed with judgment superior to that of the unwashed masses. Progressive Support For Italian and German Fascism
Heartlander
August 3, 2015
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Zachriel, facts were put on the table to back my concerns. And no, when I see a question is rhetorically loaded -- as the assignment of say the national socialist german workers party to the far right wing patently is; I will respond to the root issue instead. As, will any reasonable person: Have you stopped beating your wife yet, yes or no? The true answer is to highlight the loaded question and point out that it is those who make grave accusations (you elitist-oppressor supporting next to Nazi Christofascist . . . ) who have a burden of warrant beyond reasonable doubt.G'day. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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Zachriel,
We don’t rationalize “any behavior whatsoever”.
When "legal" child-killing and the eugenics-driven agenda of Planned Parenthood are eventually looked upon by everybody with the horror with which we now look upon Nazi genocide and American slavery, people like you will "see the light." In the meantime, politically correct, lethal bigotry that has not yet been dispelled from the minds of the masses will be supported by your ilk, who can admit to no objective morality, because any rational morality condemns what you support and perpetuate.harry
August 3, 2015
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You have great difficulty responding directly to points. kairosfocus: the R/L spectrum is busted, plain and simple. We explained why that is not the case, and why the terms are still commonly used. kairosfocus: The cluster of evidence puts fascism as a form of socialism but the usual usage wants to assign it to the far right — to often, the better to taint those who do not go along with secularist “big gov’t” progressivism. No. Fascism is put on the right because it advocates a hierarchical society. kairosfocus: The self-serving claim that leftism is about equality and the right elitism, fails the test of actual cases: communist systems have nomenklaturas, in one case ending as monarchy. Communist ideology is egalitarian, even if the results fail to meet that goal. kairosfocus: Further to this, equality of outcomes on wealth/ownership administered by the state can only be achieved by destruction of civil liberty, which points straight to the domineering elite in charge of the state and its secret police That's the consequence of extremism, the belief that the ends justify the means. The left-right dichotomy is defined by the goals. You conflate that with means or unintended results. Marxism isn't put on the left because it resulted in authoritarianism, but because Marxism puts forth a plan for an egalitarian utopia.Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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Z, the R/L spectrum is busted, plain and simple. The cluster of evidence puts fascism as a form of socialism but the usual usage wants to assign it to the far right -- to often, the better to taint those who do not go along with secularist "big gov't" progressivism. The self-serving claim that leftism is about equality and the right elitism, fails the test of actual cases: communist systems have nomenklaturas, in one case ending as monarchy. Totalitarian systems will have dominant elites who fight for their privilege, as we see with the history of the socialist bloc. Constitutional democracy and its "conservative" [= classical liberal] proponents stand on the premise that humans hold equality by nature and are owed duties of justice due to that nature. Further to this, equality of outcomes on wealth/ownership administered by the state can only be achieved by destruction of civil liberty, which points straight to the domineering elite in charge of the state and its secret police, i.e. the radical socialist ideal is unworkable and ends in creation of a new oppressor class. I have not touched on its effects of undermining entrepreneurship in a high tech world. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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harry: That remark offers no evidence that King had any knowledge of the sick ideology that Sanger personified. It's evidence that King was aware of Sanger's history, including her vilification, which continues. harry: “Right and wrong are not objective values,” said one who wants to be able to rationalize, as needed, the legitimacy of any behavior whatsoever. Where did you ever get that idea? We don't rationalize "any behavior whatsoever".Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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Zachriel, That remark offers no evidence that King had any knowledge of the sick ideology that Sanger personified. "Right and wrong are not objective values," said one who wants to be able to rationalize, as needed, the legitimacy of any behavior whatsoever.harry
August 3, 2015
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kairosfocus: there is a large enough number of similarly loaded terms and concepts that it is best to avoid as hopelessly muddied and/or loaded, and such are likely to lead to confusion. We provided clear definitions consistent with general and scholarly usage. harry: Do you really think no one notices that you still haven’t admitted it was objectively wrong? Actually, we've already responded several times. You just don't like the answer. Right and wrong are not objective values.Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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harry: If the attitude towards abortion and birth control this PP pamphlet expressed is all that King knew about PP ... Actually, he was apparently aware of Sanger's history.
King's acceptance speech (delivered by Coretta King): There is a striking kinship between our movement and Margaret Sanger's early efforts. She, like we, saw the horrifying conditions of ghetto life. Like we, she knew that all of society is poisoned by cancerous slums. Like we, she was a direct actionist - a nonviolent resister. She was willing to accept scorn and abuse until the truth she saw was revealed to the millions. At the turn of the century she went into the slums and set up a birth control clinic, and for this deed she went to jail because she was violating an unjust law. Yet the years have justified her actions.
Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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Zac@189
In 1939 Sanger created the above-mentioned “Negro Project,” which aimed to get blacks to adopt birth control. Through the Birth Control Federation, she hired black ministers (including the Reverend Adam Clayton Powell Sr.), doctors, and other leaders to help pare down the supposedly surplus black population. The project’s racist intent is beyond doubt. “The mass of significant Negroes,” read the project’s report, “still breed carelessly and disastrously, with the result that the increase among Negroes…is [in] that portion of the population least intelligent and fit.” Sanger’s intent is shocking today, but she recognized its extreme radicalism even then. “We do not want word to go out,” she wrote to a colleague, “that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.” …forget about intent: Look at results. Abortion ends more black lives than heart disease, cancer, accidents, AIDS, and violent crime combined. African Americans constitute little more than 12 percent of the population but have more than a third (37 percent) of abortions. That rate has held relatively constant, though in some regions the numbers are much starker; in Mississippi, black women receive some 72 percent of all abortions, according to the Centers for Disease Control. Nationwide, 512 out of every 1,000 black pregnancies end in an abortion. Revealingly enough, roughly 80 percent of Planned Parenthood’s abortion centers are in or near minority communities. A Dark Past
See also - Dr. Alveda King: 'Planned Parenthood, Stop Using and Lying to My Family'Heartlander
August 3, 2015
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harry: You are so committed to not admitting to it [objective morality] that you can’t even bring yourself to say explicitly that Nazi genocide was objectively wrong, and then explain the principles that were violated which made it objectively wrong. Zachriel: Nazi genocide was wrong. Do you really think no one notices that you still haven't admitted it was objectively wrong? How can normal, moral, rational people take seriously the opinion of one who won't even admit that Nazi genocide was objectively wrong? One who appears to be incapable of articulating any principles of objective morality that Nazi genocide violated? Who defends Margaret Sanger, her Planned Parenthood and its "Joseph Mengele" style of the practice of medicine and its Nazi-like harvesting of the bodies of its victims? All you accomplish is letting civilization-loving people know the barbarous, irrational nature of those who seek to destroy it.harry
August 3, 2015
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Zachriel, there is a large enough number of similarly loaded terms and concepts that it is best to avoid as hopelessly muddied and/or loaded, and such are likely to lead to confusion. In that context, use by scholars is of no great help -- ours is a day where scholarship is at a steep discount for cause. A very good pair of examples is "fundamentalist" and "Capitalist." I have seen these terms outrageously abused by educated people in leadership positions and by scholars. Creationist is a similarly widely abused term. The L/R discussion, especially the quite clear tainting projection that people who support limited govt constitutional democracy and reasonably free markets and who may hold that the root of moral government is the God of ethical theism are next door to fascists and support oppressive elitism is without responsible grounds. Not least, fascism is clearly a variant form of socialism with significant marxist influence. A much more useful approach is to focus on dynamics and the implications for moving to and sustaining good gov't. Which is where I am taking my stance, and dismissive sneering is of no help. FYI, [a] degree of state power over the individual, [b] the balance between domineering arbitrariness and state of nature that we term lawfulness, as well as [c] the question of autocratic or oligarchic rulers vs lawful and reasonable leadership vs every man does what is right in his own eyes chaos . . . are three very important issues for government and society. And if you are ignorant of the significance, you need to do some serious history reading. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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Heartlander, Zachriel,
Is birth control abortion? Definitely not. An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health. It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it. Birth control merely postpones the beginning of life. -- 1963 Planned Parenthood pamphlet, Is Birth Control Abortion?
If the attitude towards abortion and birth control this PP pamphlet expressed is all that King knew about PP, and not knowing Sanger was an egomaniacal sociopath, a racist and a eugenics and euthanasia advocate who had had, prior to WWII, Nazis write articles for her Birth Control Review, then sure, he might have accepted the Margaret Sanger award from PP. King obviously didn't know Sanger had spoken at KKK rallies, or about Sanger's true motives, which, if they have not already been cited, were, in her own words:
The mass of Negroes, particularly in the South, still breed carelessly and disastrously, with the result that the increase among Negroes, even more than among Whites, is from that portion of the population least intelligent and fit. ... The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the Minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.
harry
August 3, 2015
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kairosfocus: The right left spectrum has been emptied of credibility. The problem with that assertion is that the term is still widely used, not just commonly, but among scholars. kairosfocus: Once classical liberalism was left as the status quo, the relabelling of such as conservativism and placing of clearly socialist statist totalitarian systems as the new far right simply created propagandistic confusion. It's only confusing if you don't understand the terms. The left is associated with egalitarianism, while the right is associated with hierarchies. Classical liberalism used to be on the left, because free markets were in opposition to special privileges granted to the aristocracy. Today, the left has moved to include advocacy for social safety nets, leaving classical liberalism to the right. As for fascism, they advocated absolute inequality, based on nationalism, and a strong central government under a powerful leader. This usage is consistent with how the terms are used commonly, by media, and by scholars. kairosfocus: A new approach on state power, lawfulness and leadership vs domination by especially political messianism is what is needed to build a more coherent and dynamic understanding. Word-salad.Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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Zachriel, you seem to have missed my basic point. The right left spectrum has been emptied of credibility. Its original motivation defined politics relative to absolutist monarchy, which is dead. Once classical liberalism was left as the status quo, the relabelling of such as conservativism and placing of clearly socialist statist totalitarian systems as the new far right simply created propagandistic confusion. A new approach on state power, lawfulness and leadership vs domination by especially political messianism is what is needed to build a more coherent and dynamic understanding. Show me a state with an absolute monarch like in the Middle East and the old spectrum has some sense to it, and in some cases we can argue that some Latin American Dictatorships or Adm Horthy's regency or the like in 1930's or so Europe would be a continuation -- the clue there lies in "regency." But even then it has little utility in assessing dynamics of good/bad govt. I am seeing that even my roughed up model above gives a lot of insights that span thousands of years of history. It does so by asking about dynamics and patterns at work rather than seating plans of European legislatures of 100 years past. DV, I will show my thinking in a day or so. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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