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Progressives, Fascism, and the Will to Power

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So-called progressives are feeling pretty cocky nowadays, which is not surprising after they achieved a decisive victory on one of their key policy goals when the United States Supreme Court mandated that every state must adjust its laws to pretend that people of the same sex can marry one another.  Of course, it is the case and will always be the case that a man cannot marry another man any more than he can marry his left shoe.  Marriage is not an infinitely malleable concept; it has an irreducible essence, and that essence is defined by the mutually complementary design of male and female bodies.  Now the Supreme Court tells us we must, insofar as our civil laws are concerned, pretend that relationships that do not partake of that essence in fact do.  Far from tainting the victory, however, the in-the-teeth-of-objective-reality quality of it all serves to emphasize the vast scope of the progressives’ triumph.  They have forced every state in the union to pretend to deny reality itself.  That is an impressive political victory.

Understandably, many progressives must feel their power is ascendant and will remain so, and some are succumbing to the temptation of ascendancy – the temptation to speak and act as if one’s political opponents are powerless and their concerns are therefore irrelevant and need not be acknowledged, far less taken seriously.  Progressives are beginning to drop all pretense that to them the ideals of Enlightenment liberalism such as the right to free speech and freedom of conscious were ever anything but useful tools for accomplishing their goals when classical liberals (who, ironically, are called “conservatives” in the United States) were ascendant.  They have played according to the formula Frank Herbert described in Children of Dune:

When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.

The progressive call for “tolerance” for the “other” we heard for so many years was their way of asking for freedom according to the principles of classical liberals.  But now that progressives are politically ascendant, they are no longer calling for tolerance for the other.  Instead they are determined to quash all dissent and destroy those who refuse to conform, because progressives are fascists at bottom, and arraying the coercive force of government against their political opponents to enforce conformity is according to their fascist principles.  When they were weak, “tolerance and diversity!”  Now that they are strong, “Conform or be crushed under the heel of government.”  See here, here and here as merely the latest examples.

What does this have to do with origins?  Everything of course.  Classical liberalism was based on the premises and conclusions of natural law philosophy, as perhaps most famously articulated in the United States’ Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.  We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It should be obvious that the superstructure of natural law rested on a theistic, specifically a Christian, foundation.  [Yes, a handful of the founders were Deists; the overwhelming majority of them were orthodox Christians.]  Classical liberals believed in God; they believed in a transcendent morality instituted by God; they believed that rights are not given by men to other men, but each man, as an image bearer of God, is endowed with inalienable rights by God.

These ideas have logical consequences.  Among these consequences are the belief that every human being has inherent dignity as an image bearer of God; that all persons have equal moral standing and thus a right to the twin freedoms of expression and conscience.  On the other side of the ledger, classical liberals had a keen sense of the doctrine of original sin, the fallenness of man, and his propensity for error, all of which led them to tolerate divergent political views and place their trust in the marketplace of ideas instead of a perpetual official political orthodoxy.

Progressives, on the other hand, are overwhelmingly secular and materialist in their outlook.  These ideas also have consequences, including (1) God does not exist; (2) good and evil do not exist as objective transcendent ontological categories; (3) God, who does not exist, cannot endow men with inalienable rights; and (4) men are not image bearers of a non-existent God; they are jumped up hairless apes with delusions of superiority over other animals.

If there is no good and evil and no God-endowed rights, by what standard does the progressive define the eponymous “progress” they claim to want to achieve?  Certainly there is no transcendent standard.  “We have to give up on the idea that there are unconditional, transcultural moral obligations, obligations rooted in an unchanging, ahistorical human nature,” says progressive hero Richard Rorty.

What then?  The answer is that progressives want what that want.  Theirs is a political philosophy bound by nothing and defined by their unbounded will to power.  Of course, none of this is new.  In Book X of The Laws Plato describes them:

In the first place, my dear friend, these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others, and not in legal subjection to them.

Might makes right.  Progressives want what they want, and they will crush those who oppose their will to power.  And it is not enough to achieve their policy objectives.  Dissent is not allowed.  Progressive Tanya Cohen writes:

it’s just common sense that freedom of speech doesn’t give anyone the right to offend, insult, humiliate, intimidate, vilify, incite hatred or violence, be impolite or uncivil, disrespect, oppose human rights, spread lies or misinformation, argue against the common good, or promote ideas which have no place in society.

And who decides what is the “common good” and “ideas that have no place in society”?  Why Tanya Cohen and her friends of course.

Countless times on these pages Progressives have argued that good and evil do not exist as objective categories.  Instead, they insist that good is defined by the consensus of a society.  Yet even this limit is a dodge.  Every time the people have voted on the “right” to same-sex marriage they have rejected it by fairly wide margins.  It is not the law because there is a societal consensus that it is right.  It is the law because five members of a nine-member committee of lawyers decided they have the power to impose it on the rest of us and by God they are going to use that power.  This is about as anti-democratic as it is possible to be.  Yet progressives celebrate the decision.  Why?  Not because the outcome is “legitimate” even by their own standards of legitimacy (i.e., societal consensus), but because that is what they want, and they don’t care how they get what they want so long as they get it.

What is to be done?  I am not sure.  It seems to me that the clash of worldviews has reached a point where further attempts to reason with one another may be useless.  The two camps no longer speak or even understand the other camp’s moral language.  How can I reason with someone who thinks it is morally acceptable violently to dismember a baby and sell her body parts to the highest bidder?  If that is not self-evidently monstrous and evil, what can I say that would make its monstrousness and evilness apparent?  I have no idea.

When Justice Kennedy says that the conception of marriage that was accepted by everyone everywhere in the history of the world until ten minutes ago is based on nothing but bigotry and prejudice, what can be said to dissuade him from such an absurd idea?  Again, I have no idea.

I do have an idea, however, that perhaps it is time to read more deeply into the Declaration:

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Comments
Heartlander: …and once again – wrong You said to read the context and decide for ourselves, which we did. What you quoted was the usual quote-mine. It's clear from context that Sanger didn't want to create the misimpression that birth control was meant to harm the black community. As pointed out, Dr. King accepted the Sanger award. He certainly wouldn't have done so if Sanger's intent was to wipe out black people using birth control. Gee whiz.
Martin Luther King Jr: Words are inadequate for me to say how honored I was to be the recipient of the Margaret Sanger Award. This award will remain among my most cherished possessions.
Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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Zac@187 “As you were replying to Dr. King winning the Sanger award, you must have clearly meant it as affirmation of Sanger’s mission to provide access to birth control to the black population.” …and once again - wrong - with a twist of stupid…Heartlander
August 3, 2015
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harry: You are so committed to not admitting to it that you can’t even bring yourself to say explicitly that Nazi genocide was objectively wrong, and then explain the principles that were violated which made it objectively wrong. Nazi genocide was wrong. harry: Do you have any idea what he was talking about? Indeed we do. kairosfocus: I can show that there are authoritarian or totalitarian oppressive regimes that fall all along the map of what is called right and left. Good. Then the answer is yes, there is an authoritarian right. In a few words, define how you are using the terms for political left and right. Heartlander: I gave you the info from where the quote came from so you could read it in its entirety and decide for yourself. Thanks you. In context, it's clear she doesn't want the misimpression to be propagated that birth control is meant to "exterminate the Negro population." As you were replying to Dr. King winning the Sanger award, you must have clearly meant it as affirmation of Sanger's mission to provide access to birth control to the black population. Kudos!Zachriel
August 3, 2015
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Zac@156 ”You apparently don’t know what constitutes a quote-mine.” Specifically, what did I say in my response that led you to believe I don’t know what quote-mining means? I gave you the info from where the quote came from so you could read it in its entirety and decide for yourself. Once again – you are wrong.Heartlander
August 3, 2015
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harry 184
It is apparent that many of the atheists that comment on this forum, in spite of their darkened minds, have great intellectual capacity. If only they would apply that intellectual capacity to the depths of the meaning of that profound event. It takes all eternity to plumb those depths, but they, I am sure, would have unique insights that are only theirs to share with the world, and the world will never receive the light those insights would provide it. At least it won’t if those atheists continue to refuse to come out of the darkness and enter into the light of Christ, reflecting it in a way that no other can, or has, or ever will.
Interesting thoughts. There are a number of reasons why otherwise very intelligent atheists miss or avoid or ignore the obvious. I think one of the biggest issues is some kind of latent fear. That just creates an obstacle in the mind which blocks them from being open to the abundant evidence supporting theism. So, it's not just intellect. There's an important emotional element to the exploration and possible move from non-belief to faith. One of the great things about ID is that it can offer a gentle pathway for people to get beyond that fear. I can certainly understand anyone who doesn't like the image of God as a merely a harsh, judgemental, dictator. That's a distorted view. But since ID just looks at the scientific evidence, it can point only to a designing intelligence. That could be a lot better starting point for who are afflicted (rightly or wrongly) with fear about what a Designer of the universe might actually mean for them.Silver Asiatic
August 3, 2015
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kairosfocus @183, Well said. If the world would only grasp that and then become intrigued by the most profoundly interesting, thought-provoking, riveting event that has ever occurred in human history: That eternal, necessary being, Who brought the Universe and humanity into existence, became one of us and walked among us, teaching and performing good works that only the very source of reality could accomplish. It turns out that the ultimate, primary reality is a "Who," not a "what." Amazing. It is apparent that many of the atheists that comment on this forum, in spite of their darkened minds, have great intellectual capacity. If only they would apply that intellectual capacity to the depths of the meaning of that profound event. It takes all eternity to plumb those depths, but they, I am sure, would have unique insights that are only theirs to share with the world, and the world will never receive the light those insights would provide it. At least it won't if those atheists continue to refuse to come out of the darkness and enter into the light of Christ, reflecting it in a way that no other can, or has, or ever will.harry
August 3, 2015
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Harry, I add that non-being (the real nothing) can have no causal powers so if utter nothing ever was, such would forever obtain. So there was always a necessary being, which cannot not be, as root of reality. Such will forever obtain, by virtue of that necessity of being and so some world shall always be. In context, finding ourselves under moral government, the only credible explanation is that that IS is the root of OUGHT, a necessary, maximally great inherently good Creator-God. And so, morality is an inextricable part of the core fabric of reality. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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F/N4: Sowell's view -- I am doing a web search based clipping exercise to bring out further, the reasons why the L/R spectrum is seriously flawed and should be replaced for actual thinking with some assessment of [1] state control vs individual autonomy, [2] frame of laws, [3] power concentration in state leaders: ____________ >>Back in the 1920s, however, when fascism was a new political development, it was widely -- and correctly -- regarded as being on the political left. Jonah Goldberg's great book "Liberal Fascism" cites overwhelming evidence of the fascists' consistent pursuit of the goals of the left, and of the left's embrace of the fascists as one of their own during the 1920s. Mussolini, the originator of fascism, was lionized by the left, both in Europe and in America, during the 1920s. Even Hitler, who adopted fascist ideas in the 1920s, was seen by some, including W.E.B. Du Bois, as a man of the left. It was in the 1930s, when ugly internal and international actions by Hitler and Mussolini repelled the world, that the left distanced themselves from fascism and its Nazi offshoot -- and verbally transferred these totalitarian dictatorships to the right, saddling their opponents with these pariahs. What socialism, fascism and other ideologies of the left have in common is an assumption that some very wise people -- like themselves -- need to take decisions out of the hands of lesser people, like the rest of us, and impose those decisions by government fiat. The left's vision is not only a vision of the world, but also a vision of themselves, as superior beings pursuing superior ends. [--> as in, so much for the ever so persuasive rhetoric of how equality and progress are hallmarks of the left, and elitist hierarchy and protection of the big man are hallmarks of the right . . . ] In the United States, however, this vision conflicts with a Constitution that begins, "We the People..." That is why the left has for more than a century been trying to get the Constitution's limitations on government loosened or evaded by judges' new interpretations, based on notions of "a living Constitution" that will take decisions out of the hands of "We the People," and transfer those decisions to our betters. The self-flattery of the vision of the left also gives its true believers a huge ego stake in that vision, which means that mere facts are unlikely to make them reconsider, regardless of what evidence piles up against the vision of the left, and regardless of its disastrous consequences . . . >> ____________ I am taking time to tear the heart out of the left vs right, fascists and those theocratic fundy creationists are right wing fanatics and threats to scientific, social and political progress talking points, as it is obviously a big part of the atmosphere poisoning and polarising that is going on. Don;t forget, a crucial -- but often latent -- part of this is the Hitler was a Christian smear: cf. http://kairosfocus.blogspot.com/2012/01/matt-24-watch-150-visually-exposing.html Some serious atmosphere clearing has to be done, if we are going to be able to think straight and act prudently and soundly in the face of the sort of nihilistic factionalism that is now on the prowl and is feeling its oats now that radical secularism has just consigned the marriage-family foundation of society to the dustbin; forgetting that the ruin of the family is the ruin of society and civilisation. (Cf my remarks long since, here.) KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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F/N3: Time Magazine on man of the yr 1938, turning to the most cruel joke of the year (HT, American Thinker): __________ >>Most cruel joke of all, however, has been played by Hitler & Co. on those German capitalists and small businessmen who once backed National Socialism as a means of saving Germany's bourgeois economic structure from radicalism. [--> and the great depression] The Nazi credo that the individual belongs to the state also applies to business. Some businesses have been confiscated outright, on other what amounts to a capital tax has been levied. Profits have been strictly controlled. Some idea of the increasing Governmental control and interference in business could be deduced from the fact that 80% of all building and 50% of all industrial orders in Germany originated last year with the Government. Hard-pressed for food- stuffs as well as funds, the Nazi regime has taken over large estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism. >> __________ More food for thought, on contemporary testimony. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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Seversky @176
Now suppose the entire human race is annihilated by an asteroid hitting the Earth. Is that immoral?
No.
And if the human race no longer exists, what happens to its morality? Does it continue to exist and, if so, in what form and where?
There would still be an objective morality that would apply to any life in the Universe capable of rationality and possessing a free will. So then the question becomes, "If the Universe no longer existed, what happens to morality?" And the answer is "There would still be objective morality that would apply to any "incorporeal" or "non-material" creatures capable of rationality and possessing a free will." As is suggested by your assertion that, "Moral codes are held to apply to people not lightning," adherence to objective morality is the price of rationality and free will. Of course, we truly possess a free will, so we can decide to ignore objective morality. We are free to do that for now, but we will, in this life or the next, experience the consequences of our decisions. And if there is a life after this one, we will eventually enter into it whether or not we now believe in it.harry
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F/N2: Just in case you think the above is the easily brushed aside and ignored idiosyncratic view of some right wing fundy in some silly combox on the web, I clip: __________ http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100260720/whenever-you-mention-fascisms-socialist-roots-left-wingers-become-incandescent-why/ (BTW, follow the link, the posters are utterly revealing.) >>Leftists become incandescent when reminded of the socialist roots of Nazism By Daniel Hannan Politics Last updated: February 25th, 2014 On 16 June 1941, as Hitler readied his forces for Operation Barbarossa, Josef Goebbels looked forward to the new order that the Nazis would impose on a conquered Russia. There would be no come-back, he wrote, for capitalists nor priests nor Tsars. Rather, in the place of debased, Jewish Bolshevism, the Wehrmacht would deliver “der echte Sozialismus”: real socialism. Goebbels never doubted that he was a socialist. He understood Nazism to be a better and more plausible form of socialism than that propagated by Lenin. Instead of spreading itself across different nations, it would operate within the unit of the Volk. So total is the cultural victory of the modern Left that the merely to recount this fact is jarring. But few at the time would have found it especially contentious. As George Watson put it in The Lost Literature of Socialism:
It is now clear beyond all reasonable doubt that Hitler and his associates believed they were socialists, and that others, including democratic socialists, thought so too.
The clue is in the name. Subsequent generations of Leftists have tried to explain away the awkward nomenclature of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party as either a cynical PR stunt or an embarrassing coincidence. In fact, the name meant what it said. Hitler told Hermann Rauschning, a Prussian who briefly worked for the Nazis before rejecting them and fleeing the country, that he had admired much of the thinking of the revolutionaries he had known as a young man; but he felt that they had been talkers, not doers. “I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun,” he boasted, adding that “the whole of National Socialism” was “based on Marx”. Marx’s error, Hitler believed, had been to foster class war instead of national unity – to set workers against industrialists instead of conscripting both groups into a corporatist order. His aim, he told his economic adviser, Otto Wagener, was to “convert the German Volk to socialism without simply killing off the old individualists” – by which he meant the bankers and factory owners who could, he thought, serve socialism better by generating revenue for the state. “What Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism failed to accomplish,” he told Wagener, “we shall be in a position to achieve.” . . . . The idea that Nazism is a more extreme form of conservatism has insinuated its way into popular culture. You hear it, not only when spotty students yell “fascist” at Tories, but when pundits talk of revolutionary anti-capitalist parties, such as the BNP and Golden Dawn, as “far Right”. What is it based on, this connection? Little beyond a jejune sense that Left-wing means compassionate and Right-wing means nasty and fascists are nasty. When written down like that, the notion sounds idiotic, but think of the groups around the world that the BBC, for example, calls “Right-wing”: the Taliban, who want communal ownership of goods; the Iranian revolutionaries, who abolished the monarchy, seized industries and destroyed the middle class; Vladimir Zhirinovsky, who pined for Stalinism. The “Nazis-were-far-Right” shtick is a symptom of the wider notion that “Right-wing” is a synonym for “baddie”. One of my constituents once complained to the Beeb about a report on the repression of Mexico's indigenous peoples, in which the government was labelled Right-wing. The governing party, he pointed out, was a member of the Socialist International and, again, the give-away was in its name: Institutional Revolutionary Party. The BBC’s response was priceless. Yes, it accepted that the party was socialist, “but what our correspondent was trying to get across was that it is authoritarian”. In fact, authoritarianism was the common feature of socialists of both National and Leninist varieties, who rushed to stick each other in prison camps or before firing squads. Each faction loathed the other as heretical, but both scorned free-market individualists as beyond redemption. Their battle was all the fiercer, as Hayek pointed out in 1944, because it was a battle between brothers. Authoritarianism – or, to give it a less loaded name, the belief that state compulsion is justified in pursuit of a higher goal, such as scientific progress or greater equality – was traditionally a characteristic of the social democrats as much as of the revolutionaries . . . . There are idiots who discredit every cause, of course, but most people on the Left are sincere in their stated commitment to human rights, personal dignity and pluralism. My beef with many (not all) Leftists is a simpler one. By refusing to return the compliment, by assuming a moral superiority, they make political dialogue almost impossible. Using the soubriquet “Right-wing” to mean “something undesirable” is a small but important example. Next time you hear Leftists use the word fascist as a general insult, gently point out the difference between what they like to imagine the NSDAP stood for and what it actually proclaimed. >> ___________ Food for thought. KF PS: Don't forget, click the link and look at the actual oosters. Read the translations. Eye-opening.kairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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F/N: Note the difference in focus, I seek a dynamical framework that reasonably and objectively lays out how, why different poities are more or lest just and stable, others seem to be wanting to emphasise commonly used perceptions and selling propositions such as we emphasise equality, you are about protecting power elites we don't like. Especially note the persistent failure to address the consistent emergence of a party elite ruling class in radical socialist totalitarian systems -- the new governance class that runs the state that is unaccountable controller and de facto owner of essentially the whole economy, backed up by secret police power and show trial politicised people's kangaroo courts that are anything but lawful in their dealings. Note too, how the fact of at least one Stalinist monarchy in North Korea, now in its third generation, has also been studiously ignored. The case of brother succession in Cuba similarly at least suggests that continuismo -- tendency to stretch presidency into life tenure in an autocratic or oligarchic state -- tends to monarchy and inheritance of ownership rights. Where, the whole country becomes a domain of the de facto crown. KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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Seversky:
If one man kills another without sufficient justification we consider that to be immoral
Justification in this context begs the question of OUGHT, i.e. it too is not foundational. The use of "we consider" is in effect an appeal to personal or community views, and without further foundation suggests or outright implies the nihilist credo, might or manipulation makes 'right.' As Plato long since warned in The Laws Bk X on the amorality and radical relativism implicit in evolutionary materialism. The issue Harry aptly put on the table is to address and resolve the IS-OUGHT gap, grounding OUGHT in a world-root IS that adequately grounds OUGHT, and particularly justice, i.e. the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities in a community that constitutes a proper civil peace. This shows the central importance of the origins debates and linked worldviews questions to government, governance and society, especially the utterly important civil peace of justice in the teeth of the deadly vortex of abusive and unjust government that threatens or can engulf any polity. You at least understand that unlike mechanical creation, we are -- as Charles Grandison Finney (a lawyer, BTW) was fond of summing up -- we are under moral government, where our is is subject to the active consideration of OUGHT that to be what is? So, the issue is on the table: what is the world-root IS that can ground OUGHT? After several centuries, there is just one serious answer, the one written into the US DoI of 1776 and implicit in its predecessor, the Dutch DoI of 1581. That is, we here deal with the foundations of just government and of nationhood that enjoys the blessings of liberty and of the linked civil peace of justice. Namely: the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, root of reality, worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accordance with our evident nature. That nature is then manifest in moral government under the self-evident principles and truths at the core of the laws of nature and of nature's God. And so also, as a necessary being is inherently eternal and connected to the rooting of any actual or possible world, so long as a world exists, the laws of nature and of God will also. Laws that will govern any responsibly free and rational creature. Starting with the same point Locke used in his 2nd treatise on civil govt Ch 2 when he set out to ground what would become modern constitutional democracy through a citation from Hooker's Ecclesiastical Polity of 1594+:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . [Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
KFkairosfocus
August 3, 2015
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harry @ 174
If there is an objective morality, it remains whether we admit to it or not.
Moral imperatives are all directed towards regulating human behavior, mostly towards one another. If one man kills another without sufficient justification we consider that to be immoral - as well as being a crime. But if the unfortunate victim is instead struck down by a bolt of lightning we may think it tragic but we do not normally consider it immoral. Moral codes are held to apply to people not lightning. Now suppose the entire human race is annihilated by an asteroid hitting the Earth. Is that immoral? And if the human race no longer exists, what happens to its morality? Does it continue to exist and, if so, in what form and where?Seversky
August 2, 2015
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Zachriel, I have already taken time enough to show why Fascism and Nazism belong in the general class of socialist totalitarian systems. As the usual schemes would assign them to right wing authoritarianism, this shows that the scheme is flawed and questionable, indeed of no credibility. I cannot reasonably answer to "why does the gostak distim the doshes" but I can show that there are authoritarian or totalitarian oppressive regimes that fall all along the map of what is called right and left. Constitutional Democracies, too, are always flawed and in need of genuine reform -- as opposed to pulling them into chaos and then the deadly vortex of lawless abusive power and oppression. KFkairosfocus
August 2, 2015
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If there is an objective morality, it remains whether we admit to it or not. You are so committed to not admitting to it that you can't even bring yourself to say explicitly that Nazi genocide was objectively wrong, and then explain the principles that were violated which made it objectively wrong. I will assume here that you are familiar with the famous Amistad case, where John Quincy Adams defended before the Supreme Court the Africans who had mutinied and taken control of a Spanish slave-trader ship, the schooner La Amistad, which ended up in American waters and was then commandeered by U.S. authorities. Justice Joseph Story, in rendering the decision of the court that the Africans should be set free, stated that the case had been "decided upon the eternal principles of justice." Do you have any idea what he was talking about?harry
August 2, 2015
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Of course, Zachriel dances around the questionmike1962
August 2, 2015
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harry: What you merely support is just your personal preference. Well, if we weren't fond of humans, we probably wouldn't care about their welfare — despite any personal notions of objective morality. Ethics without love, like reason without passion, is empty. - edited for clarityZachriel
August 2, 2015
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What you merely support is just your personal preference. Again, does innocent humanity have an intrinsic right to life and liberty that government has no authority to deny them, regardless of your personal preferences?harry
August 2, 2015
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harry: Do humans have an intrinsic right to life, so they can exercise the liberty you prefer that they have? We already answered. We're rather fond of humans, so we support their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.Zachriel
August 2, 2015
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Zachriel,
As we are rather fond of humans, and as they seem to do better when they have liberty, we are a friend of liberty.
Do humans have an intrinsic right to life, so they can exercise the liberty you prefer that they have? Your preferences mean absolutely nothing. Does innocent humanity have an intrinsic right to life and liberty that government has no authority to deny them?harry
August 2, 2015
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Zachriel: We’ll simplify it for you. Is there such a thing as right-wing authoritarianism? kairosfocus: {snip} Did you answer somewhere? Zachriel: Is there such a thing as right-wing authoritarianism? harry: There is certainly such a thing as illegitimate authoritarianism which pretends to have the authority to violate the intrinsic rights of humanity. Not an answer either. We were discussing the characteristics of the political left-right dichotomy. Kairosfocus claims it has to do with the amount of government intrusion, the political left generally advocating more government. However, this is contradicted by the existence of what people call the authoritarian right, not to mention the libertarian left, and all sorts of other shades of political position. That means his understanding of the terms is in error. harry: As one who still hasn’t admitted there is such a thing as behavior that is objectively wrong, you have no basis for objecting to any kind of illegitimate authoritarianism other than that it isn’t your personal preference. As we are rather fond of humans, and as they seem to do better when they have liberty, we are a friend of liberty.Zachriel
August 2, 2015
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Zachriel,
Is there such a thing as right-wing authoritarianism?
There is certainly such a thing as illegitimate authoritarianism which pretends to have the authority to violate the intrinsic rights of humanity. It makes little difference to its victims whether it touts the merits of socialism, communism, capitalism, fascism, democracy or monarchism while it brutally violates their human dignity and human rights. As one who still hasn't admitted there is such a thing as behavior that is objectively wrong, you have no basis for objecting to any kind of illegitimate authoritarianism other than that it isn't your personal preference. You can make no rational argument against these things because you will admit to no objective morality the principles of which could be used as the basis for such an argument. Zachriel doesn't like what he calls "right-wing authoritarianism." So what? That means nothing. That is lame. Tell us what principles are violated by "right-wing authoritarianism" or, for that matter, are violated by any kind of illegitimate authoritarianism.harry
August 2, 2015
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Zachriel, People's Republic is commonly noted to denote a Communist state, and Republic is also commonly used for oligarchic polities. Notice, in referring to constitutional, limited govt democracies I have consistently used specific terms. The National Socialist German Workers/Labour Party specifically self identified as socialist in name and party platform then set out to effect a totalitarian state with effectively unlimited control over the economy, enterprises, labour etc tantamount to ownership. Nominal owners were specifically identified as agents of the state and subjected to its decisions. I have pointed out similarly for the Fascists. Therefore there is good reason to conclude that the Fascists and Nazis were a variant form of totalitarian oligarchic or autocratic, totalitarian party based socialism. Which, contrary to the common assertions, is clearly of the left. As for the rhetoric over equality, it is demonstrable that limited government constitutional democracies are committed to equality before the law reflecting equality of people. But such are not committed to state control of the economy as per socialists, instead promoting more or less free markets and enterprise. and likewise the party elites, the nomenklatura are in fact an oligarchic self-perpetuating elite who dominate all sectors of significance. And the classic definitions of socialism focus on common ownership by the society of the dominant economic entities which in praxis reduces to state domination and control. FYI, here is Collins English Dict:
socialism n 1. (Economics) an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels. Compare capitalism 2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system 3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) (in Leninist theory) a transitional stage after the proletarian revolution in the development of a society from capitalism to communism: characterized by the distribution of income according to work rather than need Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003 capitalism n 1. (Economics) Also called: free enterprise or private enterprise an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, characterized by the freedom of capitalists to operate or manage their property for profit in competitive conditions. Compare socialism1 Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
In short, there is good re4ason to conclude that the presentation of Fascism as right wing is ill founded. The only context in which R/L makes some current sense is to discuss debates over the limits of government in a general context of constitutional democracy. A dynamical look at states will find that governments labelled R and L by many show strong features of state domination, autocratic or oligarchic rule and arbitrary abusive and unjust frames of law. The only contrast that makes sense between such is constitutional, limited government democracy. Instead of confused, ill-founded labels, I will go straight to the actual deadly vortex of abusive, oppressive misgovernment. For instance the Nazis and Fascists were called Right wing, but turn out to be very close to Bolshevism. Bolshevism, Stalinism and Maoism etc all are sadly iconic examples of destructive, murderous misgovernment. The Islamic Republic of Iran is much the same, with a religiously motivated sanction. Various Juntas of Latin America were much like that. The answer to all of them is to move to the real opposite, constitutional democracy, though there may well need to be a transition proces to build up the basis. KFkairosfocus
August 2, 2015
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kairosfocus: The first thing you still have to answer for, is the very name National Socialist German Worker’s Party. Is that same as answering for the People's Republic of China? kairosfocus: The commonly presented spectrum with Communists and socialists on the left and Fascists or Nazis on the right, is ill founded. So you keep claiming, while ignoring the standard definitions of the political terms, left and right. Instead, you keep insisting on your own interpretation based on degree of government intrusion, even though that usage is inconsistent with how people actually use the terms. We'll simplify it for you. Is there such a thing as right-wing authoritarianism?Zachriel
August 2, 2015
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Zachriel, The first thing you still have to answer for, is the very name National Socialist German Worker's Party. This, in a time and place where as von Mises testified, even the liberals and conservatives by and large believed that ultimately socialism would prevail. Then, you still need to account for the specific nature of socialism as a socio-economic system that stood up in opposition to enterprise-based market systems in the general context of emerging industrial capitalism. Where, the issue of "equality" is not the sole defining construct of Socialism [nor can you legitimately taint all who disagree with the left as you conceive it with supporting either a continuation of feudal oligarchy or cronyist kleptocracy capitalism or the like], and indeed a pro free enterprise limited government democratic view would hold that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights that it is a prime function of the state to bear the sword of justice in defence of. Where also, the clearest most dominant socialist bloc saw the consistent emergence of a nomenklatura Party based ruling elite that held power in so direct a way that party bosses sat at the shoulders of even Generals. And today, in North Korea, we are in the third generation of what is clearly a socialist absolutist monarchy. All of this points back to the definition of Socialism, something you have also studiously avoided. So, again, as I have repeatedly cited and annotated from the world socialists (a current iteration it seems):
Central to the meaning of socialism is common ownership. This means the resources of the world being owned in common by the entire global population. [–> i.e. the state acting on behalf of the people, where sufficient control is tantamount to declared ownership, from this we get to unlimited power and the characteristic problem of abuse and the rise of a nomenklatura . . . the new, party elite.] But does it really make sense for everybody to own everything in common? Of course, some goods tend to be for personal consumption, rather than to share—clothes, for example. People ‘owning’ certain personal possessions does not contradict the principle of a society based upon common ownership. In practice, common ownership will mean everybody having the right to participate in decisions on how global resources will be used. [–> dilution through the vote and the concentration of esp policing power means the state monopoly is effectively unbreakable unless there is a systemic breakdown, the individual is now crushed under the bootheel] It means nobody being able to take personal control of resources, beyond their own personal possessions. [–> Save for those who run the all powerful state] Democratic control is therefore also essential to the meaning of socialism. [Democracy only works properly with limited govt, a free independent press and literate public free to think speak and act for themselves which implies freedom of economic action also] Socialism will be a society in which everybody will have the right to participate in the social decisions that affect them. [–> and if the apparatchiks don’t like your contribution . . . ?] These decisions could be on a wide range of issues—one of the most important kinds of decision, for example, would be how to organise the production of goods and services. [–> state control] Production under socialism would be directly and solely for use. [–> free market ad entrepreneurship are driven out] With the natural and technical resources of the world held in common and controlled democratically [–> deceptive given 100 y of history] , the sole object of production would be to meet human needs. This would entail an end to buying, selling and money. [–> thus, economic freedom is dead, this also runs into the von Mises info problem, it is impossible to soundly achieve] Instead, we would take freely what we had communally produced. The old slogan of “from each according to ability, to each according to needs” would apply.
State domination of economy and society in the name of the people, generally expressed through a "vanguard" Party, whose elite become the de facto new ruling class and whose leaders become the new oligarchs. Seizure of property in the name of the people, to place it under state control. Associated domination of the individual, as a rule backed up by the secret state police and draconian laws to enforce the state domination. Loss of liberty, and massive violation of core human rights. In the Fascist and Nazi cases, the particular means of state economic takeover were slightly subtler than in Stalin's Russia, formation of guilds and cartels under state/party domination, where nominal owners were agents of the totalitarian state and were not free to act outside of that diktat. Backed up of course by the Secret Police. Let's just say that the rage of the Junkers family over how the highly innovative Professor Junkers was hounded to his grave was iconic. In that context, I again draw attention to Mussolini and Hitler:
MUSSOLINI, 1928 Autobiography: >>The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against any law of the Collectivity. The Fascist State with its corporative conception puts men and their possibilities into productive work and interprets for them the duties they have to fulfill. (Mussolini, Benito. My Autobiography. New York: Scribner’s, 1928., p. 280)>> HITLER, per citation: >>The state should retain supervision and each property owner should consider himself appointed by the state. It is his duty not to use his property against the interests of others among his own people. This is the crucial matter. The Third Reich will always retain its right to control the owners of property. (Barkai, Avraham. Nazi Economics: Ideology, Theory, and Policy. Trans. Ruth Hadass-Vashitz. Oxford: Berg Publishers Ltd., 1990., pp. 26–27)>>
Shipman, in the concise enc of Econ and Liberty sums up -- and again, this was studiously avoided:
Both nations exhibited elaborate planning schemes for their economies in order to carry out the state’s objectives. Mussolini’s corporate state “consider[ed] private initiative in production the most effective instrument to protect national interests” (Basch 1937, p. 97). But the meaning of “initiative” differed significantly from its meaning in a market economy. Labor and management were organized into twenty-two industry and trade “corporations,” each with Fascist Party members as senior participants. The corporations were consolidated into a National Council of Corporations; however, the real decisions were made by state agencies such as the Instituto per la Ricosstruzione Industriale, which held shares in industrial, agricultural, and real estate enterprises, and the Instituto Mobiliare, which controlled the nation’s credit. Hitler’s regime eliminated small corporations and made membership in cartels mandatory.1 The Reich Economic Chamber was at the top of a complicated bureaucracy comprising nearly two hundred organizations organized along industry, commercial, and craft lines, as well as several national councils. The Labor Front, an extension of the Nazi Party, directed all labor matters, including wages and assignment of workers to particular jobs. Labor conscription was inaugurated in 1938. Two years earlier, Hitler had imposed a four-year plan to shift the nation’s economy to a war footing. In Europe during this era, Spain, Portugal, and Greece also instituted fascist economies.
In short, Fascism and Nazism were plainly variants of the socialist scheme, and as totalitarian systems were recognisably very close to Bolshevism. The commonly presented spectrum with Communists and socialists on the left and Fascists or Nazis on the right, is ill founded. It therefor makes sense to think in fresh terms, that address the problem of the deadly vortex of autocratic or oligarchic oppressive government and the need to sustain a limited government, constitutional democracy with a due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities as a much superior alternative but one that is always in danger of being destabilised and drawn into the vortex. KFkairosfocus
August 2, 2015
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jerry,
The Republicans were the transformation of the Whigs of the 1820’s started by Henry Clay as a reaction to the debacle of the War of 1812,
The Whigs formed in the 1830s as a reaction to the policies of Jackson (such as his dismantling of the National Bank and removal of the Cherokee Indians). They felt he was being tyrannical and so took the name "Whigs" in honor of the Whigs who supported independence from England in the 18th century.
But a lot changed in the 1960’s as the North became atheistic and drifted to the Democratic party while the religious South was appalled by Roe vs Wade and switched to the more moral of the two parties, the Republicans.
Atheists never numbered enough, anywhere, to be relevant as to why a certain part of the country supported either party. And it's anachronistic to attribute Roe v. Wade as the reason the South switched to the Republican party in the early 1960s. Roe v. Wade was 1973. The reason the South switched to the "more moral" of the two parties, the Republicans, was due to their opposition to the Civil Rights legislation. That's what the whole "Southern strategy" that the Republicans used (very succussfully) to win over the South (long prior to Roe v. Wade) was based on. As the architect of Nixon's Southern strategy put it: "From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that...but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are."goodusername
August 2, 2015
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jerry @ 158 That was an excellent, concise overview on a complex situation - thank you. Interesting reference also.Silver Asiatic
August 2, 2015
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That anti-communist, pro-military fierceness led to disaster in Southeast Asia.
That is incorrect as it was the lack of purpose and inability to invade the North that led to disaster.Virgil Cain
August 2, 2015
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jerry: The Democratic party of the 1960’s was fiercely anti communist and pro military. The Democratic Party had a staunch conservative wing, especially among southern whites. That anti-communist, pro-military fierceness led to disaster in Southeast Asia.Zachriel
August 2, 2015
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