Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

PZ Myers throws down a gauntlet to ID

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Yesterday, Intelligent Design critic and creationist basher, P.Z. Meyers, posted what he considers to be a real scientific challenge for ID proponents on his Pharyngula blogsite. The main thrust of his challenge is outlined in this Youtube video:

[youtube ZkED8cWRu4Q]

So, has Myers indeed stumbled upon a true significant challenge for ID?  Or, has he simply stumbled, as he so often does, over his own misconceptions and metaphysics?  I vote for the latter.
First off, he stumbles into what Phillip Johnson called Berra’s Blunder referring to Darwinist Tim Berra’s book Evolution and the myth of creationism,1990, pg 117-119, where Berra writes “If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people.” As Johnson points out, Berra completely misses the point that similarities between cars are still the result of common design.

“Of course, every one of those Corvettes was designed by engineers. The Corvette sequence – like the sequence of Beethoven’s symphonies to the opinions of the United States Supreme Court – does not illustrate naturalistic evolution at all. It illustrates how intelligent designers will typically achieve their purposes by adding variations to a basic design plan. Above all, such sequences have no tendency whatever to support the claim that there is no need for a Creator, since blind natural forces can do the creating. On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.”
P. Johnson, Defeating Darwinism by opening minds, 1997, pg 63.

In other words, homolgy doesn’t necessarity imply evolution, or exclude design. In his challenge, Myers is relying on the same sort of blunder, as he is assuming that any homology automatically eliminates design. My challenge back to him would be to show scientifically why that is the case.

ID proponent and Darwinism critic, Cornelius G. Hunter points out the hidden metaphysical blunder Myers is making as well. On his Darwin’s God blogspot, Hunter writes “While there are several problems with the challenge, the disguised religion comes around the 1:15 mark, [in the Youtube video], where the criterion of homology is explained. Don’t worry if you are not familiar with the concept of homology. The bottom line is that the challenge uses random design as a test for whether a structure evolved. Specifically, if there is any non random pattern detectable, then it must not have been designed; instead, it must have evolved.” Hunter goes on to say “This is today’s version of a test that dates back to Daniel Bernoulli and Immanuel Kant in the eighteenth century. The idea is that God would not design according to a gratuitous pattern.” In other words, this yet another version of the old “God wouldn’t have done it this way” argument. It would be interesting to see Myers scientific explanation for how he knows what God would or would not do.

Then there’s Myers’s implied Philosophical Naturalism, as he writes in the blog “The argument has long been highly asymmetric. Scientist find a gene, and what do they do? Figure out what it does, and dig into the databases to find its relatives within that organism or in other species. Creationists claim genes can’t be created without the intervention of a designer, and what do they do? Nothing.” In other words, Myers merely assumes evolution is the only explanation for homology, and his criticism of ID is that they aren’t busy digging into databases looking for those homologies, that is to say a naturalistic explanation for the data. Thus, according to Myers, doing “nothing”, means “not looking for only undirected, natural causes” as opposed to actively trying to understand the information content of the genetic code, tracing the informational pathways and/or trying to determine when, where and how the information was imparted into the system and how an intelligence may have been involved to bring this about. All that, per Myers, is doing “nothing”.

Comments
I personally do not believe that Bigfoot exists, simply because of the lack of credible evidence. Would you call that lack of belief a faith?
no because belief in bigfoot is not an all-encompassing view of the world...from dictionary.com the defnition of religion:
re?li?gion??/r??l?d??n/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA –noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
atheist have a shared set of beliefs 'concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe' so yes it is a religion.tsmith
May 18, 2009
May
05
May
18
18
2009
04:06 AM
4
04
06
AM
PDT
Just thought I'd chime in that the real reason it's not a fair test is because even if we found a gene that fit his criteria, PZ would find a way to say that it doesn't, and he has many options for doing so. In other words, the proctor of the exam has already determined every grade will be an F before anyone has taken the test. If this test were offered more honestly, maybe there would be a reason to talk. Since it's obviously not, it's all showbiz. As if you couldn't tell by listening to the narrator. Sounded like the intro to a horror movie or something, lol.tragic mishap
May 18, 2009
May
05
May
18
18
2009
03:37 AM
3
03
37
AM
PDT
Clive, rvb8 has made some ill informed negative comments (stupid comments) about ID. There is no intent to learn from rvb8 only to sling stuff. I am pointing this out to rvb8 in words he used, "marvelously," "barren" and "dull." I use the word stupid as a synonym for ill informed and it refers to his comments. He should not be making his comments since as I said he is extremely ill informed and thus giving him advice to stay out of things till he understand the issues. If rvb8 had good intentions he would ask questions not pontificate on our ignorance.jerry
May 18, 2009
May
05
May
18
18
2009
02:40 AM
2
02
40
AM
PDT
rvb8, You need to explain your logic that made you to conclude that finding design inevitably leads to a cessation of science. Do you really think that if the SETI actually do find ETI, that they will stop their efforts to find out more? Why would anyone that find design in the building blocks of biological life stop their investigation? Since you seem to be very sure of this "magical end to science" once design has been detected, I think you can answer my questions above... they are not rhetorical. I can formulate a counter question for you and your professed anti-theistic view. Why would any anti-theist bother to do any science, if there is no purpose to any action in our reality? Why so sure about your mindless method if you have no reason for it? You see... it is very easy to profess an irrational world view, but it is not that easy to act according to irrational convictions. Maybe it is because we humans are meant to FIND truth not to MAKE truth. Regards, Michael P.S. Science cannot bare the burden of naturalistic myth making much longer.mullerpr
May 18, 2009
May
05
May
18
18
2009
01:34 AM
1
01
34
AM
PDT
jerry, ----"I would stay in the background for awhile till you are up to speed otherwise you will continue to make these marvelously stupid comments." Is that necessary jerry?Clive Hayden
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
10:59 PM
10
10
59
PM
PDT
rvb8, You should refrain from commenting since you do not seem to understand the debate. There is little if any research on the face of the earth that people who espouse ID would refuse or not be interested in doing. They may come to different conclusions than others on some studies but then again they may not. Because of a more open minded approach to research they would actually expand the topics considered. So given that, how can the research ID would do be barren or dull. No I think that it is those who criticize ID who are barren and the dullards. I would stay in the background for awhile till you are up to speed otherwise you will continue to make these marvelously stupid comments.jerry
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
09:39 PM
9
09
39
PM
PDT
apparently asking ID what is to be studied once design has been inferred, or proved is, well, unaskable! Why Because ID can't do it. An ammeter will tell you the electric current in a circuit. It won't tell you why there is or isn't a current. You have to figure that out using other means.tribune7
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
08:32 PM
8
08
32
PM
PDT
No, atheism is not a faith. As an atheist, I can say that I do not believe in a god because I know of no compelling evidence to support the existence of such a being. I suppose it's to the degree to which you take it. Being skeptical of claims is obviously not a faith. Feeling obliged to defend one's worldview by attacking those held by others, however, a la Dawkins or Madalyn Murray O'Hair, is solidly expressing a faith.tribune7
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
08:14 PM
8
08
14
PM
PDT
My comment at 37 was ridiculed by Jerry at 39. "Stupid"; apparently asking ID what is to be studied once design has been inferred, or proved is, well, unaskable! Why? When 'design' is detected, what in universes, is the point of going further? Jerry, as an anti-theist (I go one better than atheist, along with Dawkins, whom I believe coined the term) I must say your science sounds barren and dull. It appears to be mired in answers, not questions. If you know the answer why raise the question? This appears to be the guiding motivation of ID, that is,work backwards from a known, 'design', to an unknown, 'the designer', whom, of course you can never know, wonderful chicanery; how in universes, do you and your supporters see anything marvellous (in creation?) at allrvb8
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
08:00 PM
8
08
00
PM
PDT
tsmith,
but you have your high holy day, Darwin day, and the holy sacrament of atheists, and the left in general…abortion.
Ouch---that's a bit inflammatory. Even though I'm not an atheist myself, I agree with Seversky that atheism is not a faith. Here's a somewhat trivial but relevant analogy: I personally do not believe that Bigfoot exists, simply because of the lack of credible evidence. Would you call that lack of belief a faith?herb
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
07:24 PM
7
07
24
PM
PDT
Surely, thats the whole point, there is such evidence, in that genes tend to show similarities to earlier genes in other/earlier forms. Thats what evolution is all about, descent with modification. Its why all those biologists out there accept evolution and laugh at ID.
yeah if they didn't bow down to darwin they'd be unemployed. ok then give me the exact mutations, in order, that led to the eye.tsmith
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
07:10 PM
7
07
10
PM
PDT
Joseph: what did you do to mangle your knees so? I will keep you in my prayers...I tore a bicep tendon..and the pain of recovery was FAR worse than the injury itself...it took almost a year to recover...little things like flossing my teeth were an agony at first...and I didn't want to take pain pills for fear of re-injuring it...tsmith
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
07:05 PM
7
07
05
PM
PDT
No, atheism is not a faith. As an atheist, I can say that I do not believe in a god because I know of no compelling evidence to support the existence of such a being
of course just because you know of no evidence, of course does not mean there is none. so you have faith that there is no god, because surely you would have to admit you do not know enough to make a definitive statement on the existence of non-existence of God.
But neither do I worship the non-existence of any god.
I would submit you do, you are your own god, deciding good from evil, right from wrong. and of course all atheists bown down to darwin.
There are no churches where fellow atheists gather to sing the praises of nothing and hear readings from The God Delusion.
but you have your high holy day, Darwin day, and the holy sacrament of atheists, and the left in general...abortion. I find it interesting that all atheists have the same world view, the same ideology, the same sort of faith...so by all I can tell, its a religion. and if I am not mistaken, the supreme court has held it as such..tsmith
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
07:01 PM
7
07
01
PM
PDT
Joseph @ 67
However we do have experience with information-rich systems. So we can use that experience to form inferences about information-rich systems in which the origins are not known.
THERE is the analogy you hope for: the analogy from information rich human artifacts, and their origins, to information rich biological systems, and their origins. But it is that very analogy that is at issue. That an analogy can be constructed itself establishes nothing, and inferences are not warranted until the aptness and empirical usefulness of the analogy has been established. Here is how to do that: Employ the analogy as an heuristic to generate hypotheses about the intelligent design of biological origins that, in turn, lead to unique testable predictions ("inferences" is too strong, but "hypotheses" is just right). Testable empirical hypotheses that place the theory that entails them at risk of disconfirmation. Under those circumstances, confirmation of observations predicted from your model will indeed increase our confidence that ID has gotten something right. You argue that intelligent activities leave traces, and the prediction of such traces satisfies this request for predictive test. Unfortunately, that is far too general to guide actual research. The traces one expects from one design activity are not necessarily at all similar to those of another. To cite two recent examples, traces enabling the forensic detection of arson (accelerants, multiple points of origin) are entirely dissimilar to and have no relevance for the detection of the design of Corvettes (art work, engineering plans, clay models and prototypes). Nor is knowledge of one sort of trace much help in predicting the those that arise from another entirely different design activity, however much intelligent agency accounts for both. Knowledge of the design activities themselves, and the materials upon which designs are imposed, is required. That, of course, is what is painfully lacking vis the hypothesis that organisms were designed. So, WHAT traces do you predict necessarily arise from the design activities that yielded living organisms? What specific traces do you predict, such that failure to observe them places your theory in jeopardy of disconfirmation? Vis your linked paper, I find an abstract only, one that promises results that cast doubt upon Behe's conclusions regarding the limits of Darwinian processes. Pointedly enough to have provoked a reply from Behe in all his himselfitude. That doesn't sound promising for your position. However, absent the paper itself it is impossible to say more.Diffaxial
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
06:59 PM
6
06
59
PM
PDT
Adel:
What are your plans?
1- Get a (another) new ACL for my right knee 2- Recover 3- Rehab 4- Get the medial meniscus tear in my left knee taken care of 5- Recover 6- Rehab 7- Go back to school in September 8- From there I plan to get my degree, come out of retirement and open a businessJoseph
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
06:28 PM
6
06
28
PM
PDT
Diffaxial says: The traces of agency in biology should be quite specific, reflecting long experience with the manner in which agents intentionally originate biological structures. That's an unnecessary restriction on a design inference, Diff. Detection of design traverses domains. When one sees a billions-long encoded instruction and nano-machinery in one cell that is more complex than all human machines combined on the planet, it screams design. Ask Antony Flew and James Le Fanu. If your statement were true, SETI is meaningless.SpitfireIXA
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
06:23 PM
6
06
23
PM
PDT
StephenA @70:
No, the point was that such similarities do not provide evidence of a purely naturalistic origin. Or do the similarities between a Toyota station wagon and one made by Mitusubushi prove they both arose with no intelligent input?
Thank you. I guess it is not enough to refer to Berra's blunder in an argument against Darwinism. We must beat the dead mule into a pulp and then some.Mapou
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
06:22 PM
6
06
22
PM
PDT
Graham, The theory of evolution is how old and all we've got is a colorful narrative. But anyway say you get a duplicated gene. That gene also needs a binding site. It needs to be activated. It needs to be controlled. So I would say that gene duplication followed by rapid integration and mutation to allow for a differing function, would be a sign of evolution by design- What Dr Spetner calls the "non-random evolutionary hypothesis". As for "descent with modification", what , exactly, got "modified" to get vertebrates on a planet that never had one- ie populations of invertebrates?Joseph
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
06:20 PM
6
06
20
PM
PDT
tsmith @ 29
atheism is obviously a faith. its a worldview, and it requires faith in the atheist creation fable, evolution. you have faith there is no God…no proof, just as you have faith in evolution, which you cannot prove. So you believe that all that you see just happened, that evolution explains why giraffes are tall, and skunks are small. evolution is all in all..and atheism is nothing more than another faith. a rather absurd one at that.
No, atheism is not a faith. As an atheist, I can say that I do not believe in a god because I know of no compelling evidence to support the existence of such a being. But neither do I worship the non-existence of any god. I feel no compelling need worship anything. In fact, the whole concept of religious worship has me slightly puzzled since I cannot conceive of a god vain enough to need people to worship it that would actually be worthy of such adoration. I do not pray to the void where a god might be if it existed. There are no churches where fellow atheists gather to sing the praises of nothing and hear readings from The God Delusion. I have faith, yes. I have faith that the Sun will rise in the east each morning and set in the west each evening. But I do not worship it as a deity. I have faith in the honesty and integrity of the scientists who tell us what they have discovered about the world. That does not mean I revere them as some kind of priesthood or their writings as Scripture. I have a view of how the world is that does not include a god. That view is limited, parochial, imperfect and is always open to improvement but I see no reason to believe I am overlooking the presence of deity. So, yes, like everyone else I have faith but that does not mean I belong to a faith. I can see that there are many that do belong to a faith and that it is very important to them. I can see that it brings them great comfort and strength, that it inspires some to do great good and others to do great evil. I would not deprive believers of their belief, even if I could, but neither do I believe that their belief licenses them to force it on me or others.Seversky
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
06:15 PM
6
06
15
PM
PDT
For prime example of the shoddy "similarity evidence", most materialists are adamant that Darwinian evolution is proven true when we look at the supposed 98.8% similarity between certain gene segments of the DNA in a Chimpanzee and compare them with the same gene segments of the DNA in a Human. Though suggestive, the gene similarity, even if true, is not nearly good enough to be considered “conclusive” scientific proof. But this is beside the point since the oft quoted 98.8% similarity is not even true in the first place. To show how flimsy this evidence is, other recent comparisons of the genes, between chimps and Man have yielded a similarity of only 96%. Whereas, the December 2006 issue of PLoS ONE reported that human and chimpanzee gene copy numbers differ by a whopping 6.4% (Hahn). Even more realistically, Dr. Hugh Ross states the similarity is closer to 85% to 90% when taking into account the chimp genome is actually about 12% larger than the human genome. A recent, more accurate, Human/Chimp Genome Comparison Study in 2008, which honestly took into account the fact that the ENCODE study has implicated 100% functionality across the entire human genome, and is thus not to be limited to just the biased "gene comparisons" of materialists, has found that when they compared the entire genomes of Chimpanzees and Humans side by side, they found that the true similarity of the genomes is slightly below 70%! Chimpanzee? 10-10-2008 - Dr Richard Buggs ...Therefore the total similarity of the genomes could be below 70%. http://www.refdag.nl/artikel/1366432/Chimpanzee.html The author of the paper is a research geneticist at the University of Florida. The Unbearable Lightness of Chimp-Human Genome Similarity excerpt: One can seriously call into question the statement that human and chimp genomes are 99% identical. For one thing, it has been noted in the literature that the exact degree of identity between the two genomes is as yet unknown (Cohen, J., 2007. “Relative differences: The myth of 1%,” Science 316: 1836.). Part of the reason for this is if one decides to take into account the plethora of species-specific DNA insertions and deletions (“indels”) that are present along any segment compared between chimp and human, the percentage of identity drops. Another reason is that duplications, inversions, translocations, and transpositions at all scales uniquely characterize the two genome sequences — these have to be untangled before aligning the sequences in order to measure their similarity. Also, the 99% identity figure is often derived from protein-coding regions that only comprise about 1.5% of the two genomes. Many mammalian protein-coding regions are highly conserved, however. We also have to consider that a detailed comparison of certain “heterochromatic” chromosome regions between chimps and humans has yet to be made. In short, the figure of identity that one wants to use is dependent on various methodological factors. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/guy_walks_into_a_bar_and_think.html#more As well, there are several hundred genes that are completely unique to humans that are completely ignored in the biased similarity studies of evolutionists: Among the approximately 23,000 genes found in human DNA, scientists currently estimate that there may be as few as 50 to 100 that have no counterparts in other species. (Contract) that comparison to include (only) the primate family known as hominoids, and there may be several hundred unique genes. http://mednews.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/11349.html Secondarily, at the protein level only 29% of genes are found to code for the same exact amino acid sequences in proteins in chimps and humans (Nature, 2005), but this evidence is just brushed aside as insignificant by evolutionists, even though the protein structures themselves are now shown to be extremely sensitive to any random point mutations imposed on them, and have been shown to have a "Feedback Control Loop" mechanism which works to correct the integrity of the precise protein structure from the random mutations imposed on them to try to change their structure. Proteins with cruise control provide new perspective: "A mathematical analysis of the experiments showed that the proteins themselves acted to correct any imbalance imposed on them through artificial mutations and restored the chain to working order." http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/60/95O56/index.xml?section=topstories Cruise Control?!?.. Last time I checked, cruise control is very limiting thing for a car that prevents any change from happening! Thus, the burning question is, Why are proteins working so hard to correct random mutations imposed on them to protect their structural integrity, since random mutations incurred by protein structures are suppose to be the primary driving force for the morphological change of evolution? Though the authors of the paper try to put a "evolution friendly" spin on the "cruise control" evidence, finding a "advanced Feedback Control Loop" at such a base molecular level, before natural selection even has any chance to select for the morphological change, is screaming Design, and is, in fact, a very constraining thing to the amount of variation we can expect from the stable protein structures of the cell, and is thus, a very constraining thing to the variability of species that we can expect, and is thus, a very constraining thing for what we can expect from evolution in general. As well, using materialists very biased and misleading "only similar Genes count" methodology, our DNA is 92% similar to mice as well as 92% similar to zebrafish (Simmons PhD., Billions of Missing Links). So are we 92% mouse or are we 92% zebrafish? Our DNA is 70% similar to a fruit fly; So are we therefore 70% fruit fly? Our DNA is 75% similar to a worm; So are we therefore 75% worm? No, of course not! This reasoning that evolutionists have used to try to scientifically prove humans evolved from a chimp-like anscestor, is simply minded in its approach, and is severely contradicted by many other, more concrete lines, of evidence that refute it. Decoding the dogma of DNA similarity http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/5111 This article has a totally different conclusion on what comparing genes proves about evolution: "Why Darwin was wrong about the tree of life," New Scientist (January 21, 2009) Excerpt: Even among higher organisms, “the problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories,” leading Syvanen to say, regarding the relationships of these higher groups, “We’ve just annihilated the tree of life.” A recent study published in Science tried to construct a phylogeny of animal relationships but concluded that “despite the amount of data and breadth of taxa analyzed, relationships among most [animal] phyla remained unresolved.” Likewise, Carl Woese, a pioneer of evolutionary molecular systematics, observed that these problems extend well beyond the base of the tree of life: “Phylogenetic incongruities [conflicts] can be seen everywhere in the universal tree, from its root to the major branchings within and among the various taxa to the makeup of the primary groupings themselves.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/a_primer_on_the_tree_of_life_p_1.html#more This following article shows that the "same exact genes" have actually been shown to produce "completely different" adult structures: A Primer on the Tree of Life (Part 4) "In sharks, for example, the gut develops from cells in the roof of the embryonic cavity. In lampreys, the gut develops from cells on the floor of the cavity. And in frogs, the gut develops from cells from both the roof and the floor of the embryonic cavity. This discovery—that homologous structures can be produced by different developmental pathways—contradicts what we would expect to find if all vertebrates share a common ancestor. … To summarize, biologists have made two discoveries that challenge the argument from anatomical homology. The first is that the development of homologous structures can be governed by different genes and can follow different developmental pathways. The second discovery, conversely, is that sometimes the same gene plays a role in producing different adult structures. Both of these discoveries seem to contradict neo-Darwinian expectations."--- from the textbook Explore Evolution http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/a_primer_on_the_tree_of_life_p_3.html#more A recent article in Trends in Ecology and Evolution concluded, “the wealth of competing morphological, as well as molecular proposals [of] the prevailing phylogenies of the mammalian orders would reduce [the mammalian tree] to an unresolved bush, the only consistent clade probably being the grouping of elephants and sea cows. W. W. De Jong, “Molecules remodel the mammalian tree,” Trends in Ecology and Evolution, Vol 13(7), pgs. 270-274 (July 7, 1998). So did their very philosophically biased methodology of establishing genetic similarity, between man and chimps, help establish Darwinian evolution as true once more solid evidence came in? No, of course not!! From the very beginning, that type of reasoning, used by materialists, was simple minded in its approach and clearly flawed in establishing a solid scientific foundation on which to draw valid inferences from. Especially since they blatantly ignored the second law in order to make their case. Clearly, it must be found if the DNA is flexible enough to accommodate any type of random mutations happening to it in the first place before we can infer whether materialistic evolution is even viable as a hypothesis. This one point of evidence, the actual flexibility of DNA to any random mutations, must be firmly established, first and foremost, before we can realistically draw any meaningful inferences from the genetic data we gather from organisms. Fortunately we, through the miracle of science, can now establish this crucial point of DNA flexibility. The primary thing that is crushing to the evolutionary hypothesis is this fact. Of the random mutations that do occur, and have manifested traits in organisms that can be measured, it appears that at least 999,999 out of 1,000,000 (99.9999%) of these mutations to the DNA have been found to produce traits in organisms that are slightly deleterious, harmful and/or fatal to the life-form having the mutation. (Gerrish and Lenski, 1998, Bataillon, 2000, Elena et al, 1998). "I have seen estimates of the incidence of the ratio of deleterious-to-beneficial mutations which range from one in one thousand up to one in one million. The best estimates seem to be one in one million (Gerrish and Lenski, 1998). The actual rate of beneficial mutations is so extremely low as to thwart any actual measurement (Bataillon, 2000, Elena et al, 1998). Therefore, I cannot ...accurately represent how rare such beneficial mutations really are." (Sanford; Genetic Entropy page 24) The fate of competing beneficial mutations in an asexual population (Philip J. Gerrish & Richard E. Lenski) "Clonal interference is not the only dynamic that inhibits the progression of beneficial mutations to fixation in an asexual population. A similar inhibition may be caused by Muller’s ratchet (Muller, 1964; Haigh, 1978), in which deleterious mutations will tend to accumulate in small asexual populations. As shown by Manning and Thompson (1984) and by Peck (1994), the fate of a beneficial mutation is determined as much by the selective disadvantage of any deleterious mutations with which it is linked as by its own selective advantage." http://myxo.css.msu.edu/lenski/pdf/1998,%20Genetica,%20Gerrish%20&%20Lenski.pdf Estimation of spontaneous genome-wide mutation rate parameters: whither beneficial mutations? (Thomas Bataillon) Abstract......It is argued that, although most if not all mutations detected in mutation accumulation experiments are deleterious, the question of the rate of favourable mutations (and their effects) is still a matter for debate. http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v84/n5/full/6887270a.html High Frequency of Cryptic Deleterious Mutations in Caenorhabditis elegans ( Esther K. Davies, Andrew D. Peters, Peter D. Keightley)"In fitness assays, only about 4 percent of the deleterious mutations fixed in each line were detectable. The remaining 96 percent, though cryptic, are significant for mutation load...the presence of a large class of mildly deleterious mutations can never be ruled out. " http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/285/5434/1748 "Bergman (2004) has studied the topic of beneficial mutations. Among other things, he did a simple literature search via Biological Abstracts and Medline. He found 453,732 “mutation” hits, but among these only 186 mentioned the word “beneficial” (about 4 in 10,000). When those 186 references were reviewed, almost all the presumed “beneficial mutations” were only beneficial in a very narrow sense- but each mutation consistently involved loss of function changes-hence loss of information.” Sanford: Genetic Entropy A Quantitative Measurement of the Human Somatic Mutation Rate (2005) Our demonstration that µ is elevated in patients with cancer predisposition syndromes provides experimental support for the notion that the (elevated) mutation rate of individuals is associated with their risk of cancer. http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/65/18/8111 Trying to find an actual "hard" number for the "truly" beneficial mutation rate is, in fact, what Dr. Behe tried to do in his book "The Edge of Evolution". Dr. Behe states in Edge of Evolution on page 135. "Generating a single new cellular protein-protein binding site (in other words, generating a truly beneficial mutational event that would explain the generation of the stunning complexity of molecular machinery we see in life) is of the same order of difficulty or worse than the development of chloroquine resistance in the malarial parasite." That order of difficulty is put at 10^20 replications of the malarial parasite, by Dr. Behe. Thus, the actual rate for "truly" beneficial mutations, that would account for the machine-like complexity we see in life, is far in excess of one-hundred-billion-billion mutational events. Thus, this one in a thousand to one in a million number, for “truly” beneficial mutations, is actually far, far, too generous for the evolutionists to be using for their hypothetical calculations. In fact, from consistent findings such as these, it is increasingly apparent that the principle of Genetic Entropy is the overriding foundational rule for all of biology, with no exceptions at all, and that the belief in "truly" beneficial mutations is nothing more than wishful speculation on the naturalists part that has no foundation in empirical science whatsoever: Evolution vs. Genetic Entropy - video http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=273bd8d07d99f4016636 The foundational rule of Genetic Entropy for biology, which can draw its foundation in science, semi-directly, from the Second Law of thermodynamics and the Law of Conservation of Information (Dembski, Marks), can be stated something like this: "All beneficial adaptations away from a parent species for a sub-species, which increase fitness to a particular environment, will always come at a loss of the original complex information in the parent species genome." Professional evolutionary biologists are hard-pressed to cite even one clear-cut example of evolution through a beneficial mutation to the DNA of humans that would violate the principle of genetic entropy. Although evolutionists try to claim the lactase persistence mutation as a lonely example of a beneficial mutation in humans, lactase persistence is actually a loss of a instruction in the genome to turn the lactase enzyme off, so the mutation clearly does not violate genetic entropy. Yet at the same time, the evidence for the detrimental nature of mutations in humans is clearly overwhelming, for doctors have already cited over 3500 mutational disorders (Dr. Gary Parker).bornagain77
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
06:14 PM
6
06
14
PM
PDT
Surely, thats the whole point, there is such evidence, in that genes tend to show similarities to earlier genes in other/earlier forms.
No, the point was that such similarities do not provide evidence of a purely naturalistic origin. Or do the similarities between a Toyota station wagon and one made by Mitusubushi prove they both arose with no intelligent input?StephenA
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
06:01 PM
6
06
01
PM
PDT
jerry, there is little evidence that any gene arose naturally Surely, thats the whole point, there is such evidence, in that genes tend to show similarities to earlier genes in other/earlier forms. Thats what evolution is all about, descent with modification. Its why all those biologists out there accept evolution and laugh at ID. The challenge is asking ID to provide some evidence of a designer, because a designer could just introduce a brand new gene with no evolutionary precursor. I realise a designer need not do this, (God could do whatever he plaeses), but if he did, it would provide some evidence for ID. So far, and ID is over 10 years old, all weve got are popular books, and wailing about probabilities.Graham
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
05:21 PM
5
05
21
PM
PDT
Graham, The point is that there is little evidence that any gene arose naturally. If they did not arise naturally then what is the option? So we can discuss the validity of sentence 1 in the preceding paragraph and examine the absoluteness of the claim or what exceptions that may exist. And we can discuss the implications of sentence 2 given that sentence 1 is generally correct. Whoever did the video hasn't a clue on what the debate is about. ID just says show us the evidence. We can show you why we believe it cannot happen and we ask for empirical data to counter the ID assessment. So far neither PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne or any other of the naturalist elite have complied. So what are the ID people to think. Maybe that our assessment is correct.jerry
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
04:59 PM
4
04
59
PM
PDT
Diffaxial:
These analogies are indeed useful, although not in the way you imagine.
What I presented is a fact not an analogy. So I can see where your "refutation" fails.
Take the forensic investigation of arson, which concerns the origins of fires.
First arson has to be determined. So it starts out as a fire investigation. And yes as I have already stated numerous times our inferences depend on our current state of knowledge- usually gained via experience.
You would like to construct an analogy to determination of the origins of complexity in biology.
Complexity is NOT being debated. So no, I would not like to construct such an analogy. However we do have experience with information-rich systems. So we can use that experience to form inferences about information-rich systems in which the origins are not known. Therefor when we observe the information-rich systems in living organisms we infer design. Now to refute that inference all one has to do is demonstrate they can arise via nature, operating freely. And BTW all of our experience demonstrates that only life begets life. IOW there aren't any reasons or evidence to support your position. I take it you still don't understand the significance of the "Waiting for Two Mutations..." paper.Joseph
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
04:35 PM
4
04
35
PM
PDT
I think everyone is getting twisted out of shape here. If such genes were found, its not a smoking gun that kills Evolution (or validates ID), its just a piece of concrete evidence that provides some small support for ID. Thats it. I think the point of the challenge is that, so far, ID hasnt been able to provide such concrete evidence. A lot of hand waving and moaning about probablilities, but no concrete evidence. Another minor point, I dont think its PZM that is 'mounting the challenge'. He provided a link to youTube (and presumably supports it), but I watched the video and it doesnt look like PZ. I couldnt tell who is pushing it, but I dont think its PZ.Graham
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
03:52 PM
3
03
52
PM
PDT
@60 Hoki "From an ID point of view, wouldn’t “the-designer-did-it” always be the most parsimonius explanation?" I wold have to say the answer would be no less than "nothing did it". This is after all what it all boils down to isn't it? At least as far as OOL is concerned. Either someone Intelligent introduced information to get the ball rolling, or nothing introduced information to get the ball rolling. Take your pick. At least that's how I see the thing from the outside.IRQ Conflict
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Re "Who, How, Where, When" The following link shows one example of how ID proponents might go about answering some of these questions: http://designmatrix.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/front-loading-and-the-nervous-system/ I would like to point out in passing that from a front-loading perspective, P. Z. Myers' deliberate exclusion of genes with homologs is 100% wrong. These are precisely the genes we should be looking at.vjtorley
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
02:39 PM
2
02
39
PM
PDT
Joseph @ 58
The prediction thta arises from ID is the SAME that arises from archaeology, forensic science and SETI- Intelligent agencies tend to leave behind traces of their involvement. If we fail to see such traces or the traces we do observe are demonstrated to be obtainable via nature, operating freely, the design inference is disconfirmed.
These analogies are indeed useful, although not in the way you imagine. Take the forensic investigation of arson, which concerns the origins of fires. The occurrence of a fire within a structure, in and of itself, is not evidence for the action of an agent. The "traces" of arson to which you refer are quite specific, and our knowledge of them reflects long experience with the manner in which people typically intentionally start fires within structures: evidence of the use of accelerants, multiple points of origin, and so on. These are understood in light of equally long experience with fires that arise absent agency, which lack such indicators and are typically traceable to a handful of causes: overloaded electrical circuits, untended candles, lightning strikes, etc., causal pathways which leave their own well known traces. In short, the detection of arson - of agency as the origin of structural fires - requires experience both with the typical indicia of agency, against a background of equally long experience with fires that arise inadvertently, and indicia of the causation of such accidental fires. You would like to construct an analogy to determination of the origins of complexity in biology. For the analogy to hold, a complex biological structure, in and of itself, cannot be regarded as evidence for the action of an agent (just as a fire is not prima facie evidence of arson). The traces of agency in biology should be quite specific, reflecting long experience with the manner in which agents intentionally originate biological structures. Again, to continue the analogy, that experience takes on its significance only against a background of experience with the origination of biological complexity by non-intentional (natural) means. Similar reasoning informs other forensic investigations. It should be easy to see that your analogy fails when extended to biology and ID. We have no experience with the origination of complexity in biology at the hands of intelligent agents from which to derive knowledge of the typical "traces" of such agents as they go about their biological arson. Indeed, we have no candidate agents at all, much less any knowledge of the means employed by any such agent, and the traces left by such means. Moreover, because you don't acknowledge origination of biological complexity by natural means at all, you therefore cannot contrast whatever traces you imagine "must" reflect agency within biology with indications of the instances of the origins of biological complexity absent agency. It follows that, whatever means you claim is capable of detecting agency within biology, it is decidedly NOT analogous to the detection of arson. Your analogy to forensics fails, as above. Therefore the logic of your assertion that ID predicts "traces" of the action of agency in a manner similar to that predicted by forensic science also fails.Diffaxial
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
02:36 PM
2
02
36
PM
PDT
Once the design inference is reached it opens up new questions. And given our nature we will do what we can to answer them.
What are your plans?Adel DiBagno
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
02:28 PM
2
02
28
PM
PDT
Hoki:
Given that ID allows for any type of designer (including supernatural omnipotent ones), how would one do that?
As I said- by studying the design in question- all the available evidence that led to the inference. However questions would be addressed in the order of importance. For example knowing the Wright brothers won't tell me how to fly nor fix an airplane.
From an ID point of view, wouldn’t “the-designer-did-it” always be the most parsimonius explanation?
ID is not religious so parsons have nothing to do with it. :) Once the design inference is reached it opens up new questions. And given our nature we will do what we can to answer them.Joseph
May 17, 2009
May
05
May
17
17
2009
02:25 PM
2
02
25
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply