Question: How Can We Know One Belief Selected for By Evolution is Superior to Another?

_{Barry Arrington
March 2, 2011

Intelligent Design

1}_{Categories
Intelligent Design}

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Theist: You say there is no God.

Evolutionary Materialist [EM]: Yes.

Theist: Yet belief in God among many (if not most) humans persists.

EM: I cannot deny that.

Theist: How do you explain that?

EM: Religious belief is an evolutionary adaption.

Theist: But you say religious belief is false.

EM: That’s correct.

Theist: Let me get this straight. According to you, religious belief has at least two characterizes: (1) it is false; and (2) evolution selected for it.

EM [looking a little pale now, because he’s just figured out where this is going]: Correct.

Theist: You believe the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis [NDS] is true.

EM: Of course.

Theist: How do you know your belief in NDS is not another false belief that evolution has selected for?

EM: ___________________

Our materialist friends are invited to fill in the blank.

Comments

StephenB and Bruce, This audio is directly to the point on the incoherency of the pantheism, and is right down your alley Stephen! Ravi Zacharias on the Law of Non-Contradiction - audio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pDs1wlmshgbornagain77_{March 10, 2011
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Hey bruce, I would like to hear your reasoning for why it is impossible for a Good God to create hell, because I certaintly dont think so. Take for example Satan, whether you believe he exists or not. For the purpose of this conversation, assume he does. Satan is someone who hates God, and us since we are made in the image of God.Satan is evil in every sense of the word sinse he truly hates good. He knew God in heaven in all his glory and goodness and power and he, out of his free will chose to reject God and his goodness. Now remember that such a being hates good out of his own free will. God in his perfect justice would logically have to send Satan to hell.Here is why. Hell is a place where there is no goodness because God's attributes have been removed from it. There is darkness, because God is light. There is no peace just unrest, no joy just unimaginable sadness, no comfort,no hope, just complete hopelesness,no pleasure, just pain. There is no good in hell because God is the source of ALL that is good and wholesome. And since there are none of God's attributes there, there can only BE hell. God is only giving satan what he wants. A place where there is no goodness and no Godly presence. Satan in every sense of the word DESERVES is.Now this is what i think. ONly a few people will go to hell. I believe the bible teaches that everyone who never knew God and his plan will have a chance to know him and accept him when they are ressurected at the end of times. Those people who never heard about the bible or Jesus will get their opportunity. Those that were decieved their whole lives into thinking the bible isnt true and NEVER knew better will also know the truth. These are different than those who willfully resist the truth because frankly they HATE it,and a few athesits that I know of come to mind.I believe that there will be a few people who even after being resurrected will HATE God and refuse to follow his perfect and good will. God in his perfect MERCY and JUSTICE will have to send them to hell. God is such a loving God That he would NEVER force somebody to be with him if they didnt want to. They would be miserable either way in heaven with God sinse they hate God and his goodness. He would send them to hell where God's presence isnt felt and where his Goodness is absent. God is the source of all goodness, so by rejecting God, ultimately you reject all that is good. The people in hell are only getting what they bargained for. You cant have any good without God as its source. I believe that because of God's perfect justice the people in hell will only be there for the appropriate amount of time and then cease to exist completely.kuartus_{March 10, 2011
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Semi OT: Bruce since, in my view despite your protestations to the contrary, your philosophy is just about as morally incoherent as atheism. This audio, of a man raised in India, home of your philosophy, is relevant: Ravi Zacharias - Why I am not an atheist http://www.muhammadtube.com/videos/3706/ravi-zacharias-why-i-am-not-an-atheistbornagain77_{March 10, 2011
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Bruce, Continuing.... Most Christian denominations also perceive an authoritative dificulty when there is a less than firm aknowledgement to the inerency of scripture. That issue alone should cause one to tread lightly on what scripture has declared as true. It was Paul who stated 'if the dead are not raised, there is no resurrection.' withe the same logic, if there is no hell, there is no sin. If there is no sin, there is nothing for us to be forgiven of. If there is nothing for us to be forgiven of, then there is nothing for us to believe in. If there is nothing for us to believe in, then there is no love of God, no Son sent by the Father to give us eternal life. None of it makes any sense without the element of hell's true existance. and as surely as Paul said that without resurrection the Christian faith is meaningless, without the existence of hell it is equally meaningless. Otherwise, what are we saved from: a bad day?CannuckianYankee_{March 10, 2011
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Hi Bruce. I've read through most of the exchange here. I hope you don't mind if I make a few observations. I don't think most Christian philosophers or theologians would dismiss the idea of hell as simply as you seem to be able to do. I gather that the issue is one that most of have grappled with much more than most others. Yet with the exception of a few fringe groups in Christianity (7th Day Adventists and a few others), most denominations retain belief in the existence of hell. There a number of reasons for this: contrary to the existence of hell being incompatible with the goodness of God, God's goodness actually demands its existence, given the fact that there is true evil in the world. I recently finished reading Dr. Dembski's very thorough treatment on this issue in his book 'The End Of Christianity.' I highly recommend it. Perhaps a well thought out, yet different perspective will be welcomed?CannuckianYankee_{March 10, 2011
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StephenB: Well, this is an interesting question. The passage where Jesus talks of deviding the sheep from the goats is Matthew 25:31 - 45. There are a few things I notice about this: 1. There is no mention of believing in Jesus, loving and worshiping God, not committing adultery, etc. Only whether we have been kind to one another. So it seems that he is saying that all it takes to be a sheep and have eternal life in paradise is to take care of one's fellow human beings. Since this contradicts much of what Christians tell me is in the rest of the Bible, there seems to be some inconsistency here. 2. In my observation, most people are not always kind to others or always cruel or heartless. Most are in between, including myself. What does Jesus do with vast majority of us who fall in between the two seemingly absolute criteria? 3. I would interpret this passage as a parable about oneness. I think he was pointing out that we are all connected. In fact, we are all One, so that what I do for or to another I do for or to myself. The part at the end about the everlasting fire and torment, I can only conclude is a mistake, since I know that the concept of Hell simply makes no sense*. Probably Matthew or the scribe who finally wrote it down got it wrong. *I have been arguing in this and other threads that the concept of Hell contradicts the idea of an unconditionally loving God. Actually, it's much stronger than that for me. I KNOW that there is no Hell. I am as certain of this as I am of anything. It is simply impossible for God to create a Hell, and it is equally impossible that were there such a place, Jesus would send anyone there. This is as obvious to me as the veins on the back of my hand. If scripture contradicts this, then there is a mistake in scripture. (Another difference between us is that I do not and never have believed in the infallibility of scripture. I don't even believe in the infallibility of Conversations with God, which I regard as revelation.)Bruce David_{March 9, 2011
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In order to head off any discussion of irrelevant side issues, we will make the above summary complete:..."to rescue us from eternal suffering--if we believe, are baptized, and love God and neighbor by following the commandments.StephenB_{March 9, 2011
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---Bruce: "As I have said many times, I believe his mission [Jesus] was to show all of us who and what we are by his example." According to Jesus Christ, there will be a final judgment, at which time He will separate the sheep from the goats. The former will go to heaven, and the latter, to hell. By his "example," He submitted to the frightful prospect of being tortured to death on a cross in order to rescue us from eternal suffering--if we cooperate with his grace and keep the commandments. According to you, there are no commandments and hell doesn't exist. If you are right, then Jesus was a false teacher and He set very bad example by lying about who he was and why he was here. So, which is it? Did Jesus Christ tell the truth and set a good example, or did he lie and set a bad example?StephenB_{March 9, 2011
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Bruce you state; So Sri Yukteswar also appeared in a “supernatural body”. one big difference Bruce is even if your story is true, which I don't believe, Sri Yukteswar's physical body IS STILL HERE ON EARTH, whereas Jesus physical body became a supernatural body when he 'ripped a hole' in the entropic space time of this universe! And moreover where you just have one witness of questionable motive, I have the witness of many first century martyrs who died gruesome deaths for the testimony of what they 'physically saw'; Moreover I have the Shroud, which you refuse to address;bornagain77_{March 9, 2011
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Bornagain, So Sri Yukteswar also appeared in a "supernatural body". A fundamental difference between your view of Jesus and mine is that you see him as unique and I don't (other than that he MAY have been the greatest of all the masters who have walked this planet). When I say I don't see him as unique, I mean that there is nothing he did and no wisdom he possessed that is unique to him alone. As I have said many times, I believe his mission was to show all of us who and what we are by his example. I believe that there is no essential difference between us and any of the masters who have walked the planet. The apparent differences are due solely to our various respective levels of development (ie., the degree to which we remember who we are). Further, I believe that the mission of all the great masters throughout history has been the same--to support us in that remembrance. We are made in the image and likeness of God. I take that seriously. Your arrogance, by the way, is in your assumption that your interpretation of the evidence is the only valid one, and your certainty that the conclusions which you have drawn based on that evidence are the only correct ones.Bruce David_{March 9, 2011
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Bruce, there are many among us who make truth claims. The only way to know which claims, if any, are worthy of belief is to become familiar with them, compare them, and test them. For my part, I don't argue for or against any world view unless I am already well acquainted with it. Indeed, my dialogue partners often learn that I have considered elements of their philosophy that even they are not familiar with. Seldom, if ever, do feel the reciprocal obligation. Thus, when I ask them the hard questions about their world view-- questions they are likely hearing for the first time--they devise multiple strategies for refusing to address them. What they don't realize is that they have already conceded the debate by choosing not to participate in it.StephenB_{March 9, 2011
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Bruce, Sri Yukteswar's 'physical body is still here on earth, his 'resurrected body' conveniently was said to be made out of 'cosmic atoms'; quote; "from cosmic atoms I created an entirely new body' page 400 http://books.google.com/books?id=xsIi4ePN4hYC&pg=PA396&lpg=PA396&dq=Sri+Yukteswar+died+at+his+Puri+ashram+on+March+9,+1936+was+cremated&source=bl&ots=OLvTN4by_D&sig=rpRA2yTpR28NFom8KGplPs1iLlQ&hl=en&ei=_uV3TcGKBsjrrAHo9sTECQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=falsebornagain77_{March 9, 2011
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Bruce, you can call this just a minor technicality, but Jesus actually resurrected into a 'supernatural body', that could instantaneous appear in different places he so desired, as well as walk through closed doors, and eventually ascended into heaven with His 'supernatural' body to the right hand of God the father, while all the other bodies you mentioned, that 'delayed' death, particularly delaying onset of entropic deterioration,, are still here on earth! Though you consider that a 'trivial point', methinks that your 'balance' for determining importance needs calibrating severely! Burial Places Of Founders of World's Religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religionsbornagain77_{March 9, 2011
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Bornagain: Oh, and by the way, Sri Yukteswar, Yogananda's teacher, appeared to Yogananda in his physical body after his death.Bruce David_{March 9, 2011
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Bornagain: Death is but a transition from one state of being to another. As Seth said, "You're as dead now as you'll ever be." We all defeat death, and have innumerable times. Jesus was able to return to the physical body he occupied, but so have many others (it's called a near death experience). Jesus MAY have been unique in the length of time he waited before returning, which would have required his being able to keep his body from decomposing in the interim, but this also is not unique. Yogananda's body remained in an undecomposed state for 17 days after his death (at which point it was interred), for example. I think the reason most masters did not resurrect themselves is simply that it did not suit their respective purposes. When they died, they were done here. Jesus obviously had a purpose for returning briefly to his body. I have already given you my opinion of what that purpose was. Now I expect that you're going to accuse me again of rationalizing or ignoring the evidence. Please spare me. Haven't you yet realized that all evidence is open to interpretation and that legitimate differences of opinion over what given evidence signifies can and do exist?Bruce David_{March 9, 2011
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Bruce, 'your colossal arrogance in the assumption that you know the truth and all those others in the world who disagree with you do not,' And yet Bruce even you admit to the fact that Jesus UNIQUELY rose from the dead, and exactly why should this fact, testified to by multiple lines of evidence, not give Christians the 'colossal arrogance' for the assumption that we know the truth and the other world religions do not? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/question-how-can-we-know-one-belief-selected-for-by-evolution-is-superior-to-another/#comment-373648 Perhaps you find defeating death a trivial' thing, and indeed death in the grand view of things does seem rather unnatural, while life seems rather 'natural', but none-the-less no other man in the history of earth has defeated death, just as He said He would do for testimony to the propitiation of our sins, and thus Bruce, you can call me colossally arrogant, but that is some pretty stiff evidence you are arguing against for the 'non-uniqueness' of Christianity!bornagain77_{March 9, 2011
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StephenB: And I, for my part, hope that someone reading these pages may realize that religion as it has been practiced for over 2000 years has failed to create a world of brotherhood, love, and peace, that perhaps there is more to be learned than is contained in those religions, and thus to be open to the possibility that there may be revelations coming to us even now, in our own time. I believe that the Conversations with God series of books is one such source of revelation, and superb, but far from the only one.Bruce David_{March 9, 2011
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Bornagain: "Thus Bruce it seems in order for you to maintain your belief in your morally and empirically impoverished philosophy, you must carefully choose which evidence, and scriptures, to ignore." As do you, my friend. You choose to ignore the Koran, the Buddhist scriptures, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, The Tao Te Ching, etc., etc. This is what is most annoying about you and some of the other Christians who post on this blog--your colossal arrogance in the assumption that you know the truth and all those others in the world who disagree with you do not, particularly when there is overwhelming evidence that it is possible to find God in any religion (evidence you choose to ignore).Bruce David_{March 9, 2011
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Bruce David to defend the historical accuracy of scriptures which you question so as to defend you beliefs for 'non-consequence', Defense Of The Historical Jesus From Supposed Higher Criticism Of Biblical Text And Historical Reliability - William Lane Craig - video http://www.vimeo.com/11144955 To defend necessity for acceptance of Christ, I list studies of foreign NDE's,,, Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999: Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India Excerpt: "Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You'd better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm." Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha's interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society by Dorothy E. Counts: Excerpt: "When you were in your village you claimed to be an important man. But in this little place you have been eaten up by a knife, a dog, and a pig. And now fire will utterly destroy you." When the loudspeaker had finished, a fire blazed up and destroyed the remains. http://anthropology.uwaterloo.ca/WNB/NearDeath.html ,,, Thus Bruce it seems in order for you to maintain your belief in your morally and empirically impoverished philosophy, you must carefully choose which evidence, and scriptures, to ignore, though there is compelling reason to see you have no right to this extremely prejudiced 'selectiveness' of scripture and evidence you practice.bornagain77_{March 9, 2011
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Bruce: "I just can’t get my ideas through to you. Whatever I say, your responses indicate to me that you have not understood. I don’t know if the fault lies with me or with you or with both of us, but at this point I feel it’s pointless to continue. God be with you." Bruce, bless your heart, I am tempted to give you the last word as a tribute to your patience and good will. I realize that I will likely never change the mind of my beloved dialogue partners [especially those who carry themselves as gracefully as you do] through through this kind of dialogue. However, I also value the opportunity to make the case for rationality to any lurker or onlooker that may have been bamboozled by the academy into accepting irrational and culture-destroying world views. Western Civilization is crumbling because it has, for the most part, abandoned reason and the commitment to maintain a well-ordered society. It is important to me that those observers who have not yet been rendered impervious to reason through the academy's subtle brainwashing process can witness the fact that the faddish world views that have been presented to them as truth cannot, in the final analysis, withstand intellectual scrutiny. Once they realize that they have been lied to, they can, once again, begin their search for truth with a firm confidence that good answers are available for those who are willing to commit themselves to the first principles of right reason and follow the evidence wherever it leads.StephenB_{March 8, 2011
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Bornagain: "Bruce, when you ignore direct physical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, not to mention compelling historical evidence..." I've already told you, at least twice, that I accept the resurrection of Christ. What's at issue is not whether it happened, but what it means. You think it implies the whole of Christian dogma, whereas I think it means that Jesus was demonstrating the truth of what he had been teaching--that we are not our physical bodies, but rather eternal souls. To be frank, I don't think either you or StephenB is making any serious effort to understand my thinking (as opposed to Sonfaro, who in my experience actually listens (or whatever the equivalent to listening is in the context of written communication)).Bruce David_{March 8, 2011
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supplemental note to 115 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/question-how-can-we-know-one-belief-selected-for-by-evolution-is-superior-to-another/#comment-373648 A Quantum Hologram of Christ's Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 "Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature." St. Augustinebornagain77_{March 8, 2011
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Bruce, when you ignore direct physical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, not to mention compelling historical evidence, with merely a wave of your hand, I really don't think you can fairly ascertain the truth in the first place, for you have clearly shown me that you are far more interested in philosophical posturing rather than what reality is telling us!bornagain77_{March 8, 2011
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Bornagain, All of your arguments come to naught with me because I know for a fact that many, many have "come to the Father" without accepting Jesus as their savior. One has only to read Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi, the poetry of Rumi or Hafiz, or the sublime philosophy of Ibn al 'Arabi to see this. StephenB, I just can't get my ideas through to you. Whatever I say, your responses indicate to me that you have not understood. I don't know if the fault lies with me or with you or with both of us, but at this point I feel it's pointless to continue. God be with you.Bruce David_{March 8, 2011
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---Bruce: "When you ask, “If I am God, how can I also be a part of God?” The answer is, in exactly the way that Jesus meant it when he said, “I and the Father are One." Well, no. That will not work. You are arguing that God and you [and me] are the same person. By contrast, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are different persons. ---"As for the remainder of your questions, they are all answered when you understand the purpose of the Creation." None of those other questions can be answered from a pantheistic point of view. That is why I asked them.StephenB_{March 8, 2011
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Bruce David, here is another saying from Jesus for you to ignore and rationalize away; John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." And once again I point out the obvious fact that ONLY Jesus rose from the dead to validate his claim for authenticity for being THE ONLY WAY to God the Father, while all other religious leaders are still in their graves! Burial places of founders of world religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions History proves Christ’s resurrection - article http://www.c-bstatesman.com/news/2011-03-03/Church_News/RISEN.html Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205 As well Bruce, there is compelling warrant to believe that Christ overcame the entropic space-time of this universe, and Thus defeated death; The Center Of The Universe Is Life – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age – Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: "The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the "source" of the Second Law (Entropy)." This 1 in 10^10^123 number, for the time-asymmetry of the initial state of the 'ordered entropy' for the universe, also lends strong support for 'highly specified infinite information' creating the universe since; "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more." Gilbert Newton Lewis - Eminent Chemist Evolution is a Fact, Just Like Gravity is a Fact! UhOh! Excerpt: The results of this paper suggest gravity arises as an entropic force, once space and time themselves have emerged. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-is-a-fact-just-like-gravity-is-a-fact-uhoh/ Entropy of the Universe - Hugh Ross - May 2010 Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated. http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe As well, contrary to speculation of 'budding universes' arising from Black Holes, Black Hole singularities are completely opposite the singularity of the Big Bang in terms of the ordered physics of entropic thermodynamics. In other words, Black Holes are singularities of destruction and disorder rather than singularities of creation and order. Roger Penrose - How Special Was The Big Bang? “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space.” Further note: Intelligent Design – The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.html Moreover Bruce, I believe there is severe warrant for the belief that Christ's return is very, very, soon! Bible Prophecy Fulfilled - Israel 1948 - article http://ezinearticles.com/?Bible-Prophecy-Fulfilled---Israel-1948&id=449317 Whereas Bruce, you have no evidence at all to back up your claim for the 'don't worry, be happy, everything is god! position'bornagain77_{March 8, 2011
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Bornagain: I meant what I said--we are each of us One with the Father in exactly the same way that Jesus was (and is) One with the Father. In my view, the difference between Jesus and most of the rest of us is that he knew (remembered) his oneness, whereas we do not. I am speaking here of knowing like the awareness is part of one's very being, not a mere intellectual understanding. As I have said before, my understanding of Jesus is that his mission was to show us by his example who and what we all are. ("Have I not said, ye are gods?" and "These things and greater shall ye do.") However, Jesus is not unique in this way (although I do believe that he was one of the greatest). There have been many throughout history and in all traditions who have achieved this understanding, and many examples of people who could perform miracles. There have even been some who reappeared in physical form after death. Sri Yukteswar so appeared to his disciple Yogananda, for example. As for the "except through me" quote, this is another that I am convinced has been seriously distorted in translation. I expect that in the original Aramaic, it meant something more like "except by my example" or "except as I have taught you". I am very aware that all this is heresy to a Christian, and probably makes you shudder. Nonetheless, this is how I see it. If I were you, at this point I wouldn't try to convince me otherwise. It should be obvious by now you won't succeed.Bruce David_{March 8, 2011
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correction; ripped a hole,, further notes; Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.htmlbornagain77_{March 8, 2011
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Well Bruce you state; 'When you ask, “If I am God, how can I also be a part of God?” The answer is, in exactly the way that Jesus meant it when he said, “I and the Father are One.”' not quite exactly the way he meant it for Jesus also said; John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Moreover Bruce there is actually a very strong 'empirical' case to be made that Jesus Christ ripped a whole in the 'entropic' space-time of this universe, so as to reunite us with God the Father; The Center Of The Universe Is Life – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age – Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfgbornagain77_{March 8, 2011
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StephenB, When you ask, "If I am God, how can I also be a part of God?" The answer is, in exactly the way that Jesus meant it when he said, "I and the Father are One." As for the remainder of your questions, they are all answered when you understand the purpose of the Creation. I have attempted to explain that purpose several times during the course of this and other threads in which we have both participated; obviously, I have failed. It seems pointless to try yet again. I can only refer you to the first volume of Conversations with God, where the purpose is laid out early in the book in a more lengthy and complete manner.Bruce David_{March 8, 2011
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