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Quotes about Infinity, Superstition, God, Intelligent Design

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Marcus Tullius Cicero,  wrote the most prominent Roman treatise to advance the argument from intelligent design in: The Nature of the Gods (written in 45 BCE), where i wrote:

When you follow from afar the course of a ship, upon the sea, you do not question that its movement is guided by a skilled intelligence. When you see a sundial or a water clock, you see that it tells the time by design and not by chance. How then can you imagine that the universe as a whole is devoid of purpose and intelligence? … Our opponents however profess to be in doubt whether the universe.. .came into being by accident or by necessity or is the product of a divine intelligence.The truth is that the universe is controlled by a power and purpose which we can never imitate. When we see some example of a mechanism, such as a globe or a clock or some such device, do we doubt that it is the creation of a conscious intelligence? So when we see the movement of the heavenly bodies, the speed of their revolution, and the way in which they regularly run their annual course, so that all that depends on them is preserved and prospers, how can we doubt that these too are not only the works of reason but of a reason which is perfect and divine?

Epicurus taught that the universe is infinite and eternal and that all matter is made up of extremely tiny, invisible particles known as atoms. All occurrences in the natural world are ultimately the result of atoms moving and interacting in empty space. He rejected the idea that the Gods have created our world for multiple reasons.

Epicurus, in attempting to provide a materialist explanation of the emergence of the world in all its complexity,  relied on an argument that transformed blind chance into contingency. Thus he adopted assumptions that not only
reduced the improbability of the world developing in its present form but made the appearance of such a world certain. This was what Epicureans called “the power of infinity” associated with the assumptions of

(1) infinite space, time, and matter;
(2) an infinite number of worlds;
(3) a mathematically smallest magnitude (so small as to be partless) that combined in precise ways with other such minimum magnitudes to form atoms (literally uncuttables);
(4) a resulting finite number of possible atomic types/shapes derived from the combination of these smallest magnitudes;
(5) a largest possible size to a world; and
(6) the principle of isonomia, or distributive equality between like things.

As a result of these mathematical assumptions, together with the basic material postulates of Epicurean philosophy, anything possible was bound to happen in the universe at large, and anything necessary would occur in any given world. In short, a sophisticated argument of cosmic probability was used to bolster the case for a material explanation of the existing world.

“It is the specific originality of Epicurus that he is the first man known in history to have organized a movement for the liberation of mankind at large from superstition.” Epicurus has always had the reputation of being the atheist philosopher par excellence, and was always called a swine; for this reason, too, Clement of Alexandria says that when Paul takes up arms against philosophy he has in mind Epicurean philosophy alone.

Quotes about Infinity, Superstition, God, Intelligent Design

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InaQC1rvH1k
Comments
Otangelo @ Perhaps, the Russell-Copleston Radio Debate on the Existence of God (1948). Copleston offers the cosmological argument for the existence of God. This was before the big bang theory. Russell doesn't accept the idea that the universe is contingent, and even goes so far as to argue that the "eternal" (wink wink) universe qualifies as a "necessarily existent being"
Perhaps the most memorable moment of the debate on the cosmological argument comes near the end, when Russell criticizes Copleston’s assertion that because everything contained within the Universe is contingent, the Universe as a whole must also be contingent. “I can illustrate what seems to me your fallacy,” says Russell. “Every man who exists has a mother, and it seems to me your argument is that therefore the human race must have a mother, but obviously the human race hasn’t a mother–that’s a different logical sphere.” For Russell it was enough to accept that the Universe simply exists. Or as David Hume points out in his Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, if there must be a necessarily existent being, why can’t it be the Universe as a whole?
Origenes
January 10, 2023
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@51 Querius a good suggestion to write, while my " guest speakers" are speaking, if what they are saying, is a direct quote, paraphrased, or my free invention. That will avoid any confusion. Someone asked me if I do debates of my guests. That would be another interesting thing to do. Like a debate between Huxley, and Wilberforce. If there is a historical evolution vs creation debate recorded, at least in written form, but not in audio or video, that might be interesting.Otangelo
January 9, 2023
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Otrangelo @50,
In any case, from now on, i will take even more care to clarify what are actual quotes, and eventually provide the source, and what are my words, or not quotes, to avoid any kind of confusion.
Great! I think enough of Einstein's correspondence is available that could provide you with direct quotes representative of his thoughts. If you do find that you need to paraphrase any of your "guest speakers," I think you should add the word "Paraphrased" below their speech. Again, I enjoyed your presentation of their viewpoints in animation. That was a lot of work. When you want to tackle another such conversation between historical figures, the long argument between proponents and experimenters of biogenesis and spontaneous generation would make a great subject! -QQuerius
January 8, 2023
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#49 Querius it was not my intention from the beginning to quote Einstein. It was my intention to put the words in his mouth, that i invented ( and coincidentally seem to have parallels to what he supposedly actually said). But it was not my intention to make it appear that he actually said those words. Thats why i clarified in the description of the video that he never said those words. In any case, from now on, i will take even more care to clarify what are actual quotes, and eventually provide the source, and what are my words, or not quotes, to avoid any kind of confusion.Otangelo
January 8, 2023
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Chuckdarwin @48,
I’m not the one making up fake quotes.
Was it really a made-up fake quote? Seems like a REMARKABLE COINCIDENCE if it were! I pointed out that due to rampant misattribution online, one needs to carefully check the sources of quotes before passing them along--or at least qualify any quote as "attributed to" before using it. I wrote
There seems to be such an abundance of misattributed quotes, that I make it a practice now to try to confirm them from independent sources, if possible. I think that’s the responsible thing to do rather that to persist or add on to the problem! It also makes a huge difference who originated the quote and that the quote is consistent with the context.
Notice what I bolded in my original statement. Nevertheless, you assert that I "try and rationalize and rehabilitate a “colleague” who screws up." Not true. I wrote that "I think that’s the responsible thing to do [check any quotes] rather that to persist or ADD ON TO the problem! [of misattributed quotes]" Otrangelo says that he made up the quote, which is definitely a bad idea, but I'd seemed to remember a similar quote attributed to Einstein, so I looked it up in several sources. Then, I posted a link to typical one that asserted Einstein actually said it and then another link that researched the supposed quote and found it to be a common, but likely questionable attribution along with the earliest source, Fritz Perls, who might indeed have made up the quote or paraphrased it. Taking you at your word, then you ignored the contents of the links you said that you'd read and doubled-down on Otrangelo for making up "fake quotes," which in this case, he apparently didn't actually do--despite what he said. In any case, I'd think Otrangelo will be more careful researching any quotes in the future and, when in question, use the phrase "attributed to . . ." instead. And hopefully not resort to memories, paraphrases, constructing quotes without properly labeling them as extrapolated! I think Otrangelo has a novel idea about having a pseudo discussion between famous people along the lines of Steve Allen's interview series (which I also linked to), and the amount of verification he puts in should match the work he does in selecting and animating the "conversation." -QQuerius
January 8, 2023
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Querius/47 The only thing embarrassing is how far IDers on this blog will go to try and rationalize and rehabilitate a “colleague” who screws up. I’m not the one making up fake quotes. I ran across both of your links before I posted @ 37. The Fritz Perls’ attribution is a heavily edited paraphrase , at best, if indeed Einstein even made the statement. But I am confident that you’re adult enough to distinguish between a misquote, a paraphrase and something someone just pulls out of their a**.chuckdarwin
January 8, 2023
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Chuckdarwin @46,
Perhaps it would simply be easier if you just stop making up fake quotes.
LOL. Perhaps it would simply be easier if you actually opened the links I posted @40 and followed the conversation that resulted! Once again, how embarrassing. -QQuerius
January 8, 2023
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Otangelo/41 I still see no disclaimer. Perhaps it would simply be easier if you just stop making up fake quotes. Kind of a no-brainer…….chuckdarwin
January 8, 2023
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#44 Kairosfocus it seems you did not watch my video.... i quote this passage....Otangelo
January 8, 2023
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Otangelo, Cicero also:
Is it possible for any man to behold these things, and yet imagine that certain solid and individual bodies move by their natural force and gravitation, and that a world so beautifully adorned was made by their fortuitous concourse? He who believes this may as well believe that if a great quantity of the one-and-twenty letters, composed either of gold or any other matter, were thrown upon the ground, they would fall into such order as legibly to form the Annals of Ennius. I doubt whether fortune could make a single verse of them. How, therefore, can these people assert that the world was made by the fortuitous concourse of atoms, which have no color, no quality—which the Greeks call [poiotes], no sense? [Cicero, THE NATURE OF THE GODS BK II Ch XXXVII, C1 BC, as trans Yonge (Harper & Bros., 1877), pp. 289 - 90.]
KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2023
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#42. Querius This is quite a cool coincidence. I invented the quote. Now I don't know if I saw the quote some time back, and it was dwelling somewhere in my subconscious, or if it is a pure coincidence that i freely invented it, without reference. As you can see, the words that I put in Einsteins' mouth are not 1:1 what is quoted in the links above.Otangelo
January 7, 2023
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Octangelo @41,
There I informed that the quote of Einstein was my invention and not his sayings.
I'm confused. Not according to @40 . . . -QQuerius
January 7, 2023
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#39 Chuck Darwin below the YouTube video, there is a description of the content of the video. There I informed that the quote of Einstein was my invention and not his sayings. In fact, I am informing from now on with rigor in all my videos, in the description, what are original quotes, and what is my invention.Otangelo
January 7, 2023
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There seems to be such an abundance of misattributed quotes, that I make it a practice now to try to confirm them from independent sources, if possible. I think that's the responsible thing to do rather that to persist or add on to the problem! It also makes a huge difference who originated the quote and that the quote is consistent with the context. Check this out: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/942-two-things-are-infinite-the-universe-and-human-stupidity-and Did this come from a letter? A lecture? When and where was it delivered? Now, check this out: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/04/universe-einstein/ -QQuerius
January 7, 2023
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Otangelo/38 What description of the video?chuckdarwin
January 7, 2023
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Chuckdarwin: Had you given a look at the description of the video, you would have read: The quote of Einstein is my free invention ( He never said this)Otangelo
January 6, 2023
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I have never come across the quote in the cartoon attributed to Einstein. An actual citation would be helpful. There is a well-known quote attributed to Einstein : “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” There’s no evidence, however, that Einstein ever made the quip……chuckdarwin
January 6, 2023
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Relatd @35, Yes, that's been my experience as well. And generally, there's a very short term focus and exploitative mindset, so I think Tim Wu's book The Master Switch should be required reading for all engineers and inventors. Yes, I'm also aware of graphene and its astonishing properties! James Tour's group discovered a way to make it very cheaply, which is exciting!
Relatd @14 writes: I’m not criticizing quantum mechanics. I am criticizing the “reality doesn’t exist” presentation method.
What I was trying to say was what we think is reality is not really reality. But then, I understand your point that engineers focus on tangible products regardless. -QQuerius
January 5, 2023
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Querius at 34, Electron tunneling does occur in certain circumstances. However, materials scientists, electrical engineers and circuit designers are working hard to solve what are - to them - strictly engineering problems. It's all about solving certain problems and then solving other problems. And trying new materials like graphene. https://www.thegraphenecouncil.org/blogpost/1501180/Graphene-News-and-Updates?tag=Frank+Koppens All that is happening is this: It doesn't matter how strange the quantum world is. People go in, collect data and build devices, circuits and other things. Research scientists are constantly testing new ideas and materials. I fully agree that God is involved but the quantum world has rules, and once these rules are understood, the system can be exploited for practical applications. These people have to be paid for their work and any new discoveries are turned into practical, reliable devices, components or other things. There may be Christians who work in these fields but the people they work for only want practical results. They are only willing to invest a certain amount of time and money in any project. If they believe any project is a failure or not worth further funding, it gets shut down. Those who worked on that specific project are usually free to work on other projects. I understand that what we consider real emerges from fundamental elements, but practical results are always the goal. A laptop that is one inch thick, a phone that can fold in half. That's all users and manufacturers care about. It boils down to: "Will people want this? Can I sell it?" And making a profit. Sure, there are some research projects that involve exploring new things/materials or trying new things to see if they can be made to work. These types of research only projects are looking for the next breakthrough. No product is produced by them. If it happens, it can be passed on to others for further development and exploitation. I do not want to diminish the obvious results of experiments that lead back to God. However, understand that those working in various fields involving electrons and photons are only looking to produce something they can sell, whether that's a fabrication process, a device or a new type of circuit configuration.relatd
January 5, 2023
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Relatd @32, For one thing, you’re probably aware that quantum effects limit further miniaturization of microelectronics. When an electron on a trace somehow decides to manifest its existence on an adjacent trace, you have a problem, especially when there’s a lot of this happening. From my perspective, the real problem includes the following: 1. Deterministic materialism is falsified at the very foundations of reality. Many theoretical physicists struggle to find a way to rescue the idea. 2. What we consider “real” isn’t real by our definitions of real. Mathematical probability waves have been experimentally shown to are more real than the location in space-time. This includes effects such as quantum tunneling, quantum erasure, and the quantum Zeno effect. 3. Recording devices don’t collapse wavefunctions until observed/measured by human consciousness. The recording device instead might instead be part of a Von Neumann chain. 4. Heisenberg showed that related variables such as position and momentum (called conjugate variables) enable the extraction of only a limited total amount of information based on what we CHOOSE to measure. 5. Particles can become entangled such that to some something about one of them immediately affects the other regardless of the distance between them (but still doesn’t allow for faster-than-light communication). 6. Quantum effects are the most precisely measured and confirmed in all of science (up to 10 parts per billion). The effects are not in question, but their interpretation his highly controversial among theoretical physicists, reportedly even to the point of a shouting match at a conference. Thus, what now seems fundamental to reality involves information, conscious observation/measurement, probability, and conscious choice. Everything else that we consider “real” emerges from these fundamental elements. In that context, you might want to read John 1:1 with the understanding that “Word” in Greek is Logos, which means a word (as embodying an idea), a concept, a statement, a speech, reasoning expressed by words. -QQuerius
January 5, 2023
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Whatever Origenes, I personally don't hold the mathematical wave function to be 'nothing'. I went further and cited references to hopefully clear up any confusion and show that what use to be held to be a purely mathematical description is now known to be 'something' that can be weakly measured prior to collapse. In so far as any of the papers I referenced might have said they were measuring 'nothing', I'm sure they did not mean absolutely nothing, as in not even a mathematical description of what we were measuring, but were saying 'nothing' it in context of there being no finite and definite material particle there to measure. Seeing as we have been through all this before, and you even agreed with me previously that this makes sense for a Theist, It seems like so much splitting hairs over 'nothing' at this point. :) And seeing as I see no point in splitting hairs over 'nothing', then this is my last comment on the subject in this thread.bornagain77
January 5, 2023
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Well. I'm teaching a class in Physics at the college level. I tell my students that the chair they sit in or their laptops don't exist. When they ask why, I add the above. I somehow doubt that wave-function collapse is mediated by God will go over with them. I have a background in electronics, and all that matters is producing product. The end user could care lass about wave function and superposition. In the case of quantum computers and other situations where it matters, wave-function collapse just happens. There is a list of defined things that happen in the quantum world. Once engineers/designers get that list, that's all they care about. In other words, "given these constraints, what can we do and what can't we do?" The end.relatd
January 5, 2023
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BA77 @
No I did not write about the wave function as being a ‘thing’, as in a material particle, in reality.
This is what you wrote:
BA77: Quantum mechanics says the wave function exists in an infinite dimensional/infinite information state prior to its collapse to particle-like or wave-like behavior.
According to you, the wave function—a mathematical description (!)—“exists” is some “state”, prior to its “collapse to particle-like or wave-like behavior.” Seriously?
The wave function, though not material, is certainly not nothing.
The wave function—a mathematical description—“though not material, is certainly not nothing.” Well, mathematical descriptions are not material and not nothing, however, you don’t seem to be talking about mathematical descriptions here.
I specifically stated, after you claimed we were measuring ‘nothing’, that …
I never made the claim that we are measuring ‘nothing’. My claim is that the idea (proposed by others quoted by you) that we are measuring nothing and end up with something is incoherent.Origenes
January 5, 2023
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No I did not write about the wave function as being a 'thing', as in a material particle, in reality. I specifically stated, after you claimed we were measuring 'nothing', that, "The wave function, though not 'material', is certainly not nothing". To go further and to bring more clarity, prior to wave collapse, the particle, (in so far as a particle can be said to ‘physically’ exist as a ‘particle’ in its wave-function state), is held to ‘physically’ exist in an infinite dimensional/infinite information state. This ‘infinite dimensional’ wave state of the particle is held to be in a ‘superposition’. A ‘superposition’ of the particle existing in all possible states. i.e. A ‘superposition’ of the particle existing in all possible positions as opposed to the particle existing in only one definite position of only one state as it does post-collapse. This ‘superposition’ of the particle existing in all possible states has historically been held to be merely “an abstract element” and “primarily a conceptual entity”. Yet as the following articles touch upon, the ‘abstract’ and ‘conceptual’ entity of the particle existing in a ‘superposition’ wave function is now experimentally shown to be a 'physically real' entity that can be 'weakly' measured without collapsing the superposition of the particle to just one definitive position.
Direct measurement of the quantum wavefunction - June 2011 Excerpt: The wavefunction is the complex distribution used to completely describe a quantum system, and is central to quantum theory. But despite its fundamental role, it is typically introduced as an abstract element of the theory with no explicit definition.,,, Here we show that the wavefunction can be measured directly by the sequential measurement of two complementary variables of the system. The crux of our method is that the first measurement is performed in a gentle way through weak measurement so as not to invalidate the second. The result is that the real and imaginary components of the wavefunction appear directly on our measurement apparatus. We give an experimental example by directly measuring the transverse spatial wavefunction of a single photon, a task not previously realized by any method. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7350/full/nature10120.html The Weak Measurement in Quantum Mechanics - 2012 Excerpt: The basic idea of the weak measurement is that the interaction (or disturbance) between the measuring apparatus and the observed system or particle is so weak, that the wave function does not collapse but continues on unchanged. In other words, a weak measurement is one in which the coupling between the measuring device and the observable to be measured is so weak that the uncertainty in a single measurement is large compared with the separation between the eigenvalues of the observable [2]. http://www-f1.ijs.si/~ramsak/seminarji/KnaflicSibka.pdf Wave function gets real in quantum experiment - February 2, 2015 Excerpt: It underpins the whole theory of quantum mechanics, but does it exist? For nearly a century physicists have argued about whether the wave function is a real part of the world or just a mathematical tool. Now, the first experiment in years to draw a line in the quantum sand suggests we should take it seriously. The wave function helps predict the results of quantum experiments with incredible accuracy. But it describes a world where particles have fuzzy properties – for example, existing in two places at the same time. Erwin Schrödinger argued in 1935 that treating the wave function as a real thing leads to the perplexing situation where a cat in a box can be both dead and alive, until someone opens the box and observes it. Those who want an objective description of the world – one that doesn't depend on how you're looking at it – have two options. They can accept that the wave function is real and that the cat is both dead and alive. Or they can argue that the wave function is just a mathematical tool, which represents our lack of knowledge about the status of the poor cat, sometimes called the "epistemic interpretation". This was the interpretation favoured by Albert Einstein, who allegedly asked, "Do you really believe the moon exists only when you look at it?" The trouble is, very few experiments have been performed that can rule versions of quantum mechanics in or out. Previous work that claimed to propose a way to test whether the wave function is real made a splash in the physics community but turned out to be based on improper assumptions, and no one ever ran the experiment. What a state Now, Eric Cavalcanti at the University of Sydney and Alessandro Fedrizzi at the University of Queensland, both in Australia, and their colleagues have made a measurement of the reality of the quantum wave function. Their results rule out a large class of interpretations of quantum mechanics and suggest that if there is any objective description of the world, the famous wave function is part of it: Schrödinger's cat actually is both dead and alive.,,, There may still be a way to distinguish quantum states from each other that their experiment didn't capture. But Howard Wiseman from Griffith University in Brisbane, Australia, says that shouldn't weaken the results. "It's saying there's definitely some reality to the wave function," he says. "You have to admit that to some extent there's some reality to the wave function, so if you've gone that far, why don't you just go the whole way?" http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26893-wave-function-gets-real-in-quantum-experiment.html
In fact, collapse of the ‘superposition’ wave function into a finite particle state of only one definite position, has now also been experimentally demonstrated. As the following article states, experiments have now demonstrated “the non-local, (i.e. beyond space and time), collapse of a (single) particle’s wave function”,, “the collapse of the wave function is a real effect”,, “the instantaneous non-local, (beyond space and time), collapse of the wave function to wherever the particle is detected”,, and “Through these different measurements, you see the wave function collapse in different ways, thus proving its existence and showing that Einstein was wrong.”,,
Quantum experiment verifies Einstein’s ‘spooky action at a distance’ – March 24, 2015 Excerpt: An experiment,, has for the first time demonstrated Albert Einstein’s original conception of “spooky action at a distance” using a single particle. ,,Professor Howard Wiseman and his experimental collaborators,, report their use of homodyne measurements to show what Einstein did not believe to be real, namely the non-local collapse of a (single) particle’s wave function.,, According to quantum mechanics, a single particle can be described by a wave function that spreads over arbitrarily large distances,,, ,, by splitting a single photon between two laboratories, scientists have used homodyne detectors—which measure wave-like properties—to show the collapse of the wave function is a real effect,, This phenomenon is explained in quantum theory,, the instantaneous non-local, (beyond space and time), collapse of the wave function to wherever the particle is detected.,,, “Einstein never accepted orthodox quantum mechanics and the original basis of his contention was this single-particle argument. This is why it is important to demonstrate non-local wave function collapse with a single particle,” says Professor Wiseman. “Einstein’s view was that the detection of the particle only ever at one point could be much better explained by the hypothesis that the particle is only ever at one point, without invoking the instantaneous collapse of the wave function to nothing at all other points. “However, rather than simply detecting the presence or absence of the particle, we used homodyne measurements enabling one party to make different measurements and the other, using quantum tomography, to test the effect of those choices.” “Through these different measurements, you see the wave function collapse in different ways, thus proving its existence and showing that Einstein was wrong.” http://phys.org/news/2015-03-quantum-einstein-spooky-action-distance.html
(Of note: since the many worlds interpretation denies the reality of wave-function collapse, this experiment also falsifies the many worlds interpretation.) Origenes, I remind you that we recently went over all of this previously, at the end of which you conceded that,
Origenes: "This idea, obviously, only makes sense for us theists. How it impacts the minds of the Sabine Hossenfelders of this world when they blurt it out, I have no clue and, frankly, I’m not sure I want to know." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-quora-is-it-possible-to-prove-beyond-a-reasonable-doubt-that-intelligence-was-required-to-create-life/#comment-771898
Verse:
Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
bornagain77
January 5, 2023
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BA77 @28 You write about the wave function as being a thing in reality. However, the wave function is a mathematical description of something (that collapses to particle-like or wave-like behavior after measurement).
A wave function in quantum physics is a mathematical description of the quantum state of an isolated quantum system. (Wiki)
Origenes
January 5, 2023
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Origenes, it is important to differentiate between the wave-function and 'wave-like' behavior. Quantum mechanics says the wave function exists in an infinite dimensional/infinite information state prior to its collapse to particle-like or wave-like behavior. The wave function, though not material, is certainly not nothing.bornagain77
January 5, 2023
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Querius @22, BA77
Ori: To say that something does not exist before a measurement is logically incoherent. How do you measure “nothing” (something that does not exist)? When you measure “nothing” the only possible outcome is “nothing”, because from nothing nothing comes.
Querius: It’s not actually nothing. It’s actually a probability wave and as soon as you observe/measure it, the wavefunction collapses into a particle.
You say it is not actually nothing but instead a probability wave. I agree, indeed a probability wave is not nothing. BTW in #15 I write about the probability wave. However, Bornagain cited some scientists who are saying that there really is nothing, that there is also no probability wave before measurement. No particle, no probability wave … just nothing. I pointed out that this must be logically incoherent.
“In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. … “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,”
"Measurement is everything", there is only measurement; once nothing is measured, something real is created … Again, this cannot make logical sense. If there is only measurement, then there is nothing to measure.Origenes
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Moreover, advances in quantum mechanics even goes one step further and show us, via “quantum entanglement in time”, that “a decision made in the present can influence something in the past.” and, “Quantum correlations come first, space-time later.”
Physicists provide support for retrocausal quantum theory, in which the future influences the past July 5, 2017 by Lisa Zyga Excerpt: retrocausality means that, when an experimenter chooses the measurement setting with which to measure a particle, that decision can influence the properties of that particle (or another particle) in the past, even before the experimenter made their choice. In other words, a decision made in the present can influence something in the past. https://phys.org/news/2017-07-physicists-retrocausal-quantum-theory-future.html Quantum Weirdness Now a Matter of Time – 2016 Bizarre quantum bonds connect distinct moments in time, suggesting that quantum links — not space-time — constitute the fundamental structure of the universe. Excerpt: Not only can two events be correlated, linking the earlier one to the later one, but two events can become correlated such that it becomes impossible to say which is earlier and which is later.,,, “If you have space-time, you have a well-defined causal order,” said Caslav Brukner, a physicist at the University of Vienna who studies quantum information. But “if you don’t have a well-defined causal order,” he said — as is the case in experiments he has proposed — then “you don’t have space-time.”,,, Quantum correlations come first, space-time later. Exactly how does space-time emerge out of the quantum world? Bruner said he is still unsure. https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160119-time-entanglement/
And in regards to quantum entanglement in time, Professor Elise Crullis draws out the implications and provocatively states that “entanglement can occur across two quantum systems that never coexisted,,, it implies that the measurements carried out by your eye upon starlight falling through your telescope this winter somehow dictated the polarity of photons more than 9 billion years old.”
You thought quantum mechanics was weird: check out entangled time – Feb. 2018 Excerpt: Just when you thought quantum mechanics couldn’t get any weirder, a team of physicists at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem reported in 2013 that they had successfully entangled photons that never coexisted. Previous experiments involving a technique called ‘entanglement swapping’ had already showed quantum correlations across time, by delaying the measurement of one of the coexisting entangled particles; but Eli Megidish and his collaborators were the first to show entanglement between photons whose lifespans did not overlap at all.,,, Up to today, most experiments have tested entanglement over spatial gaps. The assumption is that the ‘nonlocal’ part of quantum nonlocality refers to the entanglement of properties across space. But what if entanglement also occurs across time? Is there such a thing as temporal nonlocality?,,, The data revealed the existence of quantum correlations between ‘temporally nonlocal’ photons 1 and 4. That is, entanglement can occur across two quantum systems that never coexisted. What on Earth can this mean? Prima facie, it seems as troubling as saying that the polarity of starlight in the far-distant past – say, greater than twice Earth’s lifetime – nevertheless influenced the polarity of starlight falling through your amateur telescope this winter. Even more bizarrely: maybe it implies that the measurements carried out by your eye upon starlight falling through your telescope this winter somehow dictated the polarity of photons more than 9 billion years old. Elise Crullis assistant professor in history and philosophy of science at the City College of New York.,,, https://aeon.co/ideas/you-thought-quantum-mechanics-was-weird-check-out-entangled-time
Moroever, as if that was not provocative enough, with “quantum contextuality”, (which is integral for quantum computing), we find that “In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation”
Contextuality is ‘magic ingredient’ for quantum computing – June 11, 2012 Excerpt: Contextuality was first recognized as a feature of quantum theory almost 50 years ago. The theory showed that it was impossible to explain measurements on quantum systems in the same way as classical systems. In the classical world, measurements simply reveal properties that the system had, such as colour, prior to the measurement. In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation. Imagine turning over a playing card. It will be either a red suit or a black suit – a two-outcome measurement. Now imagine nine playing cards laid out in a grid with three rows and three columns. Quantum mechanics predicts something that seems contradictory – there must be an even number of red cards in every row and an odd number of red cards in every column. Try to draw a grid that obeys these rules and you will find it impossible. It’s because quantum measurements cannot be interpreted as merely revealing a pre-existing property in the same way that flipping a card reveals a red or black suit. Measurement outcomes depend on all the other measurements that are performed – the full context of the experiment. Contextuality means that quantum measurements can not be thought of as simply revealing some pre-existing properties of the system under study. That’s part of the weirdness of quantum mechanics. http://phys.org/news/2014-06-weird-magic-ingredient-quantum.html Quantum contextuality Quantum contextuality is a feature of the phenomenology of quantum mechanics whereby measurements of quantum observables cannot simply be thought of as revealing pre-existing values. ,,, Contextuality was first demonstrated to be a feature of quantum phenomenology by the Bell–Kochen–Specker theorem.[1],,, 1. S. Kochen and E.P. Specker, “The problem of hidden variables in quantum mechanics”, Journal of Mathematics and Mechanics 17, 59–87 (1967) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_contextuality
And as the newly minted, (Oct. 2022), Nobel Laureate Anton Zeilinger stated, “what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.”
“The Kochen-Speckter Theorem talks about properties of one system only. So we know that we cannot assume – to put it precisely, we know that it is wrong to assume that the features of a system, which we observe in a measurement exist prior to measurement. Not always. I mean in certain cases. So in a sense, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.” Anton Zeilinger – Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video (7:17 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4C5pq7W5yRM#t=437
In fact, in his Nobel Prize lecture, after highlighting such experiments as the ones I've referenced, Anton Zeilinger stated, "When you look at the predictions of quantum mechanics for multi-particle entanglement,, so you could have one measurement here, one (measurement) there, an earlier (measurement), a later (measurement), and so on. These predictions (of quantum mechanics) are completely independent of the relative arrangements of measurements in space and time. That tells you something about the role of space and time. There’s no role at all.”,,,
“There’s one important message I want to say here. When you look at the predictions of quantum mechanics for multi-particle entanglement,, so you could have one measurement here, one (measurement) there, an earlier (measurement), a later (measurement), and so on. These predictions (of quantum mechanics) are completely independent of the relative arrangements of measurements in space and time. That tells you something about the role of space and time. There’s no role at all.”,,, – Anton Zeilinger – 2022 Nobel Prize lectures in physics – video (1:50:07 mark) https://youtu.be/a9FsKqvrJNY?t=6607 Alain Aspect: From Einstein’s doubts to quantum technologies: non-locality a fruitful image John F. Clauser: Experimental proof that nonlocal quantum entanglement is real Anton Zeilinger: A Voyage through Quantum Wonderland – Alain Aspect, John F. Clauser and Anton Zeilinger were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics 2022 “for experiments with entangled photons, establishing the violation of Bell inequalities and pioneering quantum information science”
Thus from multiple lines of experimental evidence, (i.e. Wheeler’s delayed choice experiment with atoms, the violation of Leggett’s inequality, Quantum entanglement in time, and quantum contextuality, not to mention the Quantum Zeno effect and Quantum information theory), Einstein’s belief that his space-time was the correct definition of time, and that “The experience of ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics” has been thoroughly, and impressively, falsified. In fact, I hold that it would now be much more appropriate to rephrase Einstein’s answer to the philosopher Rudolph Carnap in this way; “It is impossible for “the experience of ‘the now’” to ever be divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics.” Verses:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
bornagain77
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To further solidify my claim that the infinite Mind of God must be 'collapsing' the infinite dimensional/infinite information 'wave function' to its finite particle state,,, There was a heated argument between Albert Einstein and Henri Bergson, (who was a prominent philosopher), over what the proper definition of time should be. Einstein bluntly stated, (to an audience of prominent philosophers that he was invited to speak to), that, “The time of the philosophers did not exist”. And in fact, that disagreement with those philosophers, and with Henri Bergson in particular, over what the proper definition of time should actually be was one of the primary reasons that Einstein failed to ever receive a Nobel prize for his work on relativity:
Einstein vs Bergson, science vs philosophy and the meaning of time – Wednesday 24 June 2015 Excerpt: The meeting of April 6 was supposed to be a cordial affair, though it ended up being anything but. ‘I have to say that day exploded and it was referenced over and over again in the 20th century,’ says Canales. ‘The key sentence was something that Einstein said: “The time of the philosophers did not exist.”’ It’s hard to know whether Bergson was expecting such a sharp jab. In just one sentence, Bergson’s notion of duration—a major part of his thesis on time—was dealt a mortal blow. As Canales reads it, the line was carefully crafted for maximum impact. ‘What he meant was that philosophers frequently based their stories on a psychological approach and [new] physical knowledge showed that these philosophical approaches were nothing more than errors of the mind.’ The night would only get worse. ‘This was extremely scandalous,’ says Canales. ‘Einstein had been invited by philosophers to speak at their society, and you had this physicist say very clearly that their time did not exist.’ Bergson was outraged, but the philosopher did not take it lying down. A few months later Einstein was awarded the Nobel Prize for the discovery of the law of photoelectric effect, an area of science that Canales noted, ‘hardly jolted the public’s imagination’. In truth, Einstein coveted recognition for his work on relativity. Bergson inflicted some return humiliation of his own. By casting doubt on Einstein’s theoretical trajectory, Bergson dissuaded the committee from awarding the prize for relativity. In 1922, the jury was still out on the correct interpretation of time. So began a dispute that festered for years and played into the larger rift between physics and philosophy, science and the humanities. Bergson was fond of saying that time was the experience of waiting for a lump of sugar to dissolve in a glass of water. It was a declaration that one could not talk about time without reference to human consciousness and human perception. Einstein would say that time is what clocks measure. Bergson would no doubt ask why we build clocks in the first place. ‘He argued that if we didn’t have a prior sense of time we wouldn’t have been led to build clocks and we wouldn’t even use them … unless we wanted to go places and to events that mattered,’ says Canales. ‘You can see that their points of view were very different.’ In a theoretical nutshell this, (disagreement between Einstein and Bergson), expressed perfectly the division between lived time and spacetime: subjective experience versus objective reality.,,, Just when Einstein thought he had it worked out, along came the discovery of quantum theory and with it the possibility of a Bergsonian universe of indeterminacy and change. God did, it seems, play dice with the universe, contra to Einstein’s famous aphorism. Some supporters went as far as to say that Bergson’s earlier work anticipated the quantum revolution of Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg by four decades or more. Canales quotes the literary critic Andre Rousseaux, writing at the time of Bergson’s death. ‘The Bergson revolution will be doubled by a scientific revolution that, on its own, would have demanded the philosophical revolution that Bergson led, even if he had not done it.’ Was Bergson right after all? Time will tell. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/philosopherszone/science-vs-philosophy-and-the-meaning-of-time/6539568
Henri Bergson, as the preceding article pointed out, championed the primacy of ‘lived time’ over and above Einstein’s ‘spacetime’, Which is to say that Bergson championed ‘subjective experience’ over and above ‘objective reality’ in providing the proper definition of time. As the preceding article stated, the subjective experience of “duration”, was “a major part of his (Bergson’s) thesis on time”. In support of Bergson’s main thesis, and as Dr. Egnor has pointed out, “Duration, and/or “persistence of self identity”, is one of the main defining attributes of the immaterial mind that is irreducible to the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinian atheists.
The Mind and Materialist Superstition – Michael Egnor – 2008 Six “conditions of mind” that are irreconcilable with materialism: – Excerpt: Intentionality,,, Qualia,,, Persistence of Self-Identity,,, Restricted Access,,, Incorrigibility,,, Free Will,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super013961.html
Likewise, J. Warner Wallace also lists “Persistent self-identity through time”, i.e. ‘duration’, as a property of the immaterial mind that is irreducible to the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinian atheists.
Six reasons why you should believe in non-physical minds – 01/30/2014 1) First-person access to mental properties 2) Our experience of consciousness implies that we are not our bodies 3) Persistent self-identity through time 4) Mental properties cannot be measured like physical objects 5) Intentionality or About-ness 6) Free will and personal responsibility http://winteryknight.com/2014/01/30/six-reasons-why-you-should-believe-in-non-physical-minds/
In more clearly defining what Henri Bergson actually meant by ‘duration’, and/or “persistence of self identity through time”, it is important to note that we each have a unique perspective of being outside of time. In fact we each seemingly watch from some mysterious ‘outside of time’ perspective as time seemingly passes us by. Simply put, we very much seem to be standing on a ‘tiny’ island of ‘now’ as the river of time continually flows past us. In the following video, Dr. Suarez states that the irresolvable dilemma for reductive materialists as such, “it is impossible for us to be ‘persons’ experiencing ‘now’ if we are nothing but particles flowing in space time. Moreover, for us to refer to ourselves as ‘persons’ (experiencing now), we cannot refer to space-time as the ultimate substratum upon which everything exists, but must refer to a “Person” who is not bound by space time. (In other words) We must refer to God!”
Nothing: God’s new Name – Antoine Suarez – video Paraphrased quote: (“it is impossible for us to be ‘persons’ experiencing ‘now’ if we are nothing but particles flowing in space time. Moreover, for us to refer to ourselves as ‘persons’, we cannot refer to space-time as the ultimate substratum upon which everything exists, but must refer to a Person who is not bound by space time. i.e. We must refer to God!”) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOr9QqyaLlA
In further defining the immaterial mind’s attribute of ‘the experience of the now’, in the following article Stanley Jaki states that “There can be no active mind without its sensing its existence in the moment called now.,,, ,,,There is no physical parallel to the mind’s ability to extend from its position in the momentary present to its past moments, or in its ability to imagine its future. The mind remains identical with itself while it lives through its momentary nows.”
The Mind and Its Now – Stanley L. Jaki, May 2008 Excerpts: There can be no active mind without its sensing its existence in the moment called now.,,, Three quarters of a century ago Charles Sherrington, the greatest modern student of the brain, spoke memorably on the mind’s baffling independence of the brain. The mind lives in a self-continued now or rather in the now continued in the self. This life involves the entire brain, some parts of which overlap, others do not. ,,,There is no physical parallel to the mind’s ability to extend from its position in the momentary present to its past moments, or in its ability to imagine its future. The mind remains identical with itself while it lives through its momentary nows. ,,, the now is immensely richer an experience than any marvelous set of numbers, even if science could give an account of the set of numbers, in terms of energy levels. The now is not a number. It is rather a word, the most decisive of all words. It is through experiencing that word that the mind comes alive and registers all existence around and well beyond. ,,, All our moments, all our nows, flow into a personal continuum, of which the supreme form is the NOW which is uncreated, because it simply IS. http://metanexus.net/essay/mind-and-its-now
Several years after Einstein’s heated exchange with Bergson, which resulted in Einstein failing to ever receive a Nobel prize for his work on relativity, Einstein had another encounter with another prominent philosopher,, Rudolf Carnap. In particular, and around 1935, (and on a train no less), Einstein was specifically asked by Rudolf Carnap, “Can physics demonstrate the existence of ‘the now’ in order to make the notion of ‘now’ into a scientifically valid term?”
“Can physics demonstrate the existence of ‘the now’ in order to make the notion of ‘now’ into a scientifically valid term?” – Rudolf Carnap
According to Stanely Jaki, Einstein’s answer to Carnap was ‘categorical’, he said: “The experience of ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics.”
“The experience of ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics.” – Albert Einstein Carnap and Einstein quotes are taken from the last few minutes of this video: Stanley L. Jaki: “The Mind and Its Now” https://vimeo.com/10588094
Einstein’s ‘categorical. denial that ‘the experience of the now’ can be a part of physical measurement was a very interesting claim for Einstein to make since “The experience of ‘the now’ has, from many recent experiments in quantum mechanics, established itself as very much being a defining part of our physical measurements in quantum mechanics. For instance, the following delayed choice experiment, (that was done with atoms instead of photons) demonstrated that, “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,”
Reality doesn’t exist until we measure it, (Delayed Choice) quantum experiment confirms – Mind = blown. – FIONA MACDONALD – 1 JUN 2015 Excerpt: “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” lead researcher and physicist Andrew Truscott said in a press release. http://www.sciencealert.com/reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms
Likewise, the following violation of Leggett’s inequality, which falsified 'realism', stressed the quantum-mechanical assertion “that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it.”
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality – Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell’s thought experiment, Leggett’s inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it. “Our study shows that ‘just’ giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics,” Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. “You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism.” http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640
The Mind First and/or Theistic implications of quantum experiments such as the preceding are fairly obvious. As Professor Scott Aaronson of MIT once quipped, “Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists,,, But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!”
“Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!” – Scott Aaronson – MIT associate Professor quantum computation – Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables
bornagain77
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Atheistic materialists have tried to invoke 'decoherence' in order to try to explain quantum wave collapse. But decoherence has been falsified as a coherent explanation for quantum wave collapse by what are termed "Renninger-type" 'interaction-free measurements'
The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a Interaction-Free Measurements In physics, interaction-free measurement is a type of measurement in quantum mechanics that detects the position, presence, or state of an object without an interaction occurring between it and the measuring device. Examples include the Renninger negative-result experiment, the Elitzur–Vaidman bomb-testing problem [1], and certain double-cavity optical systems, such as Hardy’s paradox.,,, Initially proposed as thought experiments, interaction-free measurements have been experimentally demonstrated in various configurations, 6,7,8,, 6. Kwiat, Paul; Weinfurter, Harald; Herzog, Thomas; Zeilinger, Anton; Kasevich, Mark A. (1995-06-12). “Interaction-Free Measurement”. Physical Review Letters. 74 (24): 7. White, Andrew G. (1998). “”Interaction-free” imaging”. Physical Review A. 58 (1): 8. Tsegaye, T.; Goobar, E.; Karlsson, A.; Björk, G.; Loh, M. Y.; Lim, K. H. (1998-05-01). “Efficient interaction-free measurements in a high-finesse interferometer”. Physical Review A. 57 (5): – per wikipedia
The following video also clearly explains why decoherence does not explain quantum wave collapse,
The Measurement Problem - InspiringPhilosophy - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB7d5V71vUE
Moreover, the double slit itself, where a detector is placed at only one slit, is a type of interaction free measurement in that the ‘wave function’ at the 'unobserved' slit still collapses into a particle state although there is no physical detector at that ‘unobserved’ slit. Thus proving that interaction with the measuring device (i.e. decoherence) is insufficient to explain the collapse of the wave function to a particle state in the double slit experiments,
Quantum Experiment without Interaction (Double Slit experiment with detector at only one slit) - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOv8zYla1wY
bornagain77
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